DCyamaha

saw an article today about the federal govt mandating black boxes in all new cars! Does anyone know if our 04 or 05 tsx's have them? I do not want a black box in ANY of my cars!!

I'd like to know what people on here think of those things.

smock9

Is the reason you don't want a black box so that when there is an accident they don't have evidence that you were speeding?

mdblum

I think there is going to be a black box in some form in all cars in the next few years. The degree of information they are able to capture and deliver will vary based on legislation.

I am neutral on this topic at this point, what are some reasons you are adamant that you don't want one in your car?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that the law applies just yet. Probably starting in the next model year, 2006, they will become mandatory.

Bootlegged

The only new car that I know for a fact that has one of these "mysterious" black boxes hidden in them are the Scion TC's.

biker

Been discussed before - virtually all cars already have them - it's just a matter of how much info it collects and how is it recoverable.

Dan Martin

fatcat

Link?

IMO the major issue here is who the data captured by the black boxes belong to. Some judges have rejected black box (or sometimes called Event Data Recorder) as evidence.

Doesn't affect me whether they pass it or not.

SacQuacker

PROS: better accident investigation (his fault), better safety data

CONS: possible "abuse" of collected information, better accident investigation(your fault)

My primary worry is that we could eventually be taxed, fined, or have our insurance premiums upwardly adjusted based on downloaded information regarding our driving habits. This could, in the future, easily be done during our annual SMOG inspections. It's a definte possibility. The kind of money to be made is irresistable to politicians.

bigwilliestyle

If it's truly a black box and only used after accidents, or for investigations, doesn't bother me.

But if people can actively use that informations for other purposes, they should be

fatcat

IMO the current insurance rating system is flawed. I think that if they add mileage (Progress has done a trial run using GPS in Texas) and driver behavior to the mix, most of us would be better off with lower premium since we are not as greatly affected by habitual offenders as we currently are.

Edit - also, black box data can be used to improve highway and vehicle safety as well!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

One problem that has already been run into with black box like systems is rental car companies using it to track their renters. One company billed a guy an amount equivalent to a speeding ticket because they had him logged as traveling greater than the posted speed limit on a road. That type of use worries me, but otherwise, no big deal.

RMATIC09

I say it's fine, too many accidents out there that are corrupted with poor information.

SacQuacker

What's a "habitual offender"? Someone who routinely exceeds the speed limit by 5 mph? The problem is the interpretation of the data. I'm convinced it will be viewed in whatever sense costs the most people the most money.

ClutchPerformer

Hmmmmm.... how did they know what road he was on? And do rental car companies have the right to charge for speeding?

biker

As soon as some of this becomes more main stream, I'm sure a whole industry of hacking black boxes will flurish. It's all 1and 0s.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

It was a recording box that recorded data from a GPS system. And no, the rental car companies don't have the right to do that. The case was eventually settled without legal action, but the rental car company decided that it would rather not get its legal department involved every time so they stopped using the boxes.

fatcat

More like someone who constantly drive 20+ mph above limit and does not wear his seatbelt. Assuming he never gets caught and everything else stayed the same (location, usage, age, gender), why should I pay the same premium as this type of driver when my already high premium is compensating for drivers like that.

DCyamaha

Nope, I just dont want my car recording everything I do. What other device in life follows you around recording every move you make? sure there are video surveillance systems every where we go, but those cannot follow you once you leave the store/place etc.

but anyway, nobody answered my question. does the TSX have black boxes?

VeniceBeachTSX

I think the answer was given above.

Virtually all cars have these to some degree. The issue is how far back they keep the information, how easily recoverable it is, and who has access to it.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Most any car nowadays has some form of "black box" including the TSX. It's basically the airbag deployment computer. So if you don't want it, rip out your airbags.

fdl

It amazes me how easily people just accept these forms of invasion of privacy, without looking at the big picture. I dont know alot about these black boxes but our first reaaction to anything like this should be against them, until they can be absolutely demonstrated to be of some benefit to the general public. Being able to tell who was at fault in an accident is not good enough reason to have a black box in my car. Once there is a device int he car that collects x, it will be much easier for it to collect x +y one day. and then x + y + z , etc. Its a slipery slope that we should be concerned with.

Remember, the right to privacy is not in the constitution so we must be very careful with these things.

Dan Martin

I pretty well said the same thing in post #15 of this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13132

xizor

this kind of grey area leaves up too much room for interpretation. while collecting information for noble causes can be used for good, it can also be abused severely.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Exactly, any 96 and up cars with OBD2 ECU is already collecting certain information that can be used to against you. For example, if you reset your ECU just right before an emission test, they will know it and will fail you. All they have to do is to connect to the diagnostic port under your dash. There is something similar to the blackbox here.

fatcat

I'm just curious, what would be some examples of such abuse? Thanks.

SacQuacker

Reread #9. Keep in mind, the only reason to record ANYTHING is so that it can be used by a third party. You've heard the expression "information is power"? The contents of your black box ultimately give some other person or entity a degree of power over your life. Hopefully, that third party is benign but don't count on it.

Dan Martin

Would that mean that a Hondata ECU would not pass the emissions test? What are they looking for by plugging into your ECU?

VeniceBeachTSX

All current emissions tests involve connecting to the OBD II port. Primarily, this is to monitor the engine at the time the emissions test takes place. The engine needs to be operating within certain parameters for the test to be valid. At the same time the emissions test equipment also verifies that all the emissions equipment is in good shape, the engine isn't issuing any warnings, etc.

Most replacement ECUs are programmed in a manner that won't generate any unusual warnings, and won't cause a failure on the emissions test. Replcement ECUs almost always are focused on improving the top end, while leaving the low to middle range -- where emissions tests are done -- pretty much the same.

elduderino

Most of the "black box" type stuff is simply the ECUs retaining some history, FIFO, and when an airbag event occurs, saving the pre-history.

We were talking to a fleet management company about a telematics box that also had this ability - back in '99. They wanted that ability removed. If a car got in an accident, they wanted NOTHING to do with knowing about it. They figured the possible loss without it was better than the hard data proving their driver (and his deep-pockets employer) wrong and cleaning them out.

fatcat

Heyas, what about post 9? The part about insurance? That and your current post still doesn't give me an example or I'm just missing something. Not trying to be an ass, just a straight up need for clarification.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

They are looking for stored error codes. It depends on the state that is performing the emission test. In WA, they don't even require the engine to be running for 96 and up cars. What they do is connect their tester to the diagnostic port and rectrieve data and also see if any stored codes have been removed by resetting the ECU. The codes that the ECU stores don't always trigger the CEL the first time it happens, It will monitor if the same condition exists for multiple times before indicating a problem. Some people will try to reset the ECU prior to the emission test in attempt to pass.

Btw, regarding the Hondata questions, this is from Hondata's site...

Compatible with Honda OBD II diagnostic tools & smog station scan tools.

Dan Martin

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

heyitsme

I dunno, maybe drivers today need their x y and z checked. A lot of drivers are a-holes on the road and maybe if everyone knew someone was watching they would drive more responsibly- remember that saying "driving is a privilege, not a right." As it is now, no box, people use their cars as an extension of their power- big bad suvs/trucks, not letting people in their lanes, tailgating, cuttin people off, etc, etc.

fatcat

bump because I'm curious

edit- Also, to respond to the previous poster, I think think it doesn't have much to do with whether there's a box in your car or not. It's a matter of whether the info captured in the box can hurt you (people digging in by wire or through GPS). My point is that it will benefit most of us (lower premium, less accidents, more responsible drivers, less deaths/injuries...etc) more than it hurts us.

fatcat

An interesting read on telematics and what it means for consumers and insurers - http://www.bcg.com/publications/file..._OfA_Nov01.pdf

elduderino

You're basically discussing the difference between truth and privacy.

I will forego many benefits to retain privacy, and many Americans agree.

I wish telematics was occuring in a more open architecture, where people could sign up for what they want, and own a platform. Instead, they are all planning closed systems and I hate closed systems...

TSXsurf

Here's some more news about black boxes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132056,00.html

Lung Fu Mo Shi

If you believe that you are being too naive.

Your premiums will remain the same, while the bad drivers are now an excuse to charge them more money. Thus the insurance companies will grab it as an opportunity to make more money.

Remember that they said the same thing about motorcycle helmet laws....and no one ever saw a premium drop.

elduderino

They said it about seat belt laws too... and then used the lack of a HIGHER increase as evidence of a "benefit".