American technology, build quality and production
11-13-2011, 07:56 AM
#41
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I would NOT hesitate to buy a Ford SUV/full size truck, a Chrysler LX vehicle (Charger R/T SRT or 300) or my favorite and one day will own a CTS-V.
Add a Harley to that list as well.
Add a Harley to that list as well.
11-13-2011, 09:47 AM
#42
My first Avatar....
I should be so fortunate as to own a Shelby GT500, a 392 Challenger, a CTS-V, a ZL-1 Camaro......
11-13-2011, 10:34 AM
#43
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^ great minds think alike!
11-13-2011, 03:21 PM
#45
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
From my experience OP, I would have to disagree to a point on your assertion.
I've been fortunate to live in the land of the "great cars", and they have a lot of problems here that you don't see in the USDM. And Toyota has about 25 models of car here. Isn't that crazy? And the materials are just not that great.
When I go to the US on business, I normally get a small American car as a rental. I recently had a 2011 Ford Focus that was excellent in every aspect except the transmission. The interior details plus the fit / finish were top rate. If I were in the market for a small car, that one would be high on the list.
I've been fortunate to live in the land of the "great cars", and they have a lot of problems here that you don't see in the USDM. And Toyota has about 25 models of car here. Isn't that crazy? And the materials are just not that great.
When I go to the US on business, I normally get a small American car as a rental. I recently had a 2011 Ford Focus that was excellent in every aspect except the transmission. The interior details plus the fit / finish were top rate. If I were in the market for a small car, that one would be high on the list.
11-13-2011, 03:29 PM
#46
My first Avatar....
11-13-2011, 07:07 PM
#47
The Third Ball
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Whenever I take the challenger out I always get thumbs up and compliments. Especially on the way my car sounds.
11-14-2011, 07:54 AM
#48
Well the Japanese/German companies consistently beating American brand, also added pressure of Korean car companies on a hot streak right now..Has lit a fire under the big three's ass to either tighten up on quality control or go under.
11-14-2011, 06:30 PM
#49
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ 
11-14-2011, 07:05 PM
#50
I drive a Subata.
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We need to have a DISLIKE button for this type of post.
11-15-2011, 11:04 AM
#52
99 TL, 06 E350
You answered your own question. America is too busy building war machines rather than making machines for public consumption. If those same resources building war machines were making cars, you would see a lot better American cars.
Same thing happened to the former Soviet Union. The government interfered with the private markets by making it more lucrative to work in the public sector. Now you had the problem of too many people working for the goverment and not enough making everyday goods. Look up Peter Schiff, he explains it best.
Same thing happened to the former Soviet Union. The government interfered with the private markets by making it more lucrative to work in the public sector. Now you had the problem of too many people working for the goverment and not enough making everyday goods. Look up Peter Schiff, he explains it best.
11-15-2011, 11:05 AM
#53
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Are you retarded?
11-15-2011, 11:20 AM
#54
GEEZER
I have a Mazda, Chevy Truck and a Victory. Harley is OLD OLD Engineering. I smoke harleys on a daily basis..sooo slow.
11-15-2011, 11:21 AM
#55
GEEZER
Oh yea..Victory is Made in Minnesota.
11-16-2011, 05:49 AM
#56
AZ Community Team
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carraway
- I'm trying to avoid having this veer off into political territory, but simply stated, after Germany and Japan lost WWII, military development in both nations was very small, especially compared to that in the US and former Soviet Union. As a result, many of their engineers, designers, manufacturers and resources were focused on things like building automobiles. If, say, Ford and GM had access to the people and resources that went into American military development, we'd likely have much different vehicles.
This is an interesting thought. I know we have great engineers and resources to design different mechanical things, but things such as the military and NASA have the top ones.
Originally Posted by Carraway
- I'm trying to avoid having this veer off into political territory, but simply stated, after Germany and Japan lost WWII, military development in both nations was very small, especially compared to that in the US and former Soviet Union. As a result, many of their engineers, designers, manufacturers and resources were focused on things like building automobiles. If, say, Ford and GM had access to the people and resources that went into American military development, we'd likely have much different vehicles.
This is an interesting thought. I know we have great engineers and resources to design different mechanical things, but things such as the military and NASA have the top ones.
Three of my neighbors are engineers that work at Goddard Space Flight Center and they say it's very hard to recruit new grad engineers into NASA. One does several college job fairs a year, and said many students show little interest in NASA for a career.
11-16-2011, 06:00 AM
#57
AZ Community Team
Detroit has come a long way from the 80's, the low period of reliability and quality. The 90's were bad and even up to mid 2000's are also not so great but it's improved quite a bit in the last 5 years.
Detroit has closed the gap in quality although the Japanese still have a slight advantage. The Germans have also improved quite a bit.
One thing is cars these days have so much less maintenance and are much more complicated that it's kinda amazing how well they work.
People think nothing out of Detroit from the 90's can last 100K's miles, a good friend of mine in CO has a 1999 Tahoe with 290K miles. It's first major thing went up on it recently which was kinda amusing. A intake valve spring broke, he took it to the dealer and it's throwing codes left and right but there's no code for "broken intake valve spring". One of the older mechanics took over the diagnosis after one of the younger mechanics was at it for a couple hours without figuring what's wrong, the old timer figured it out. He also had a 1999 Silverado he just traded in with almost 200K miles for a new one. Had some 4WD issues but still drove OK.
Detroit has closed the gap in quality although the Japanese still have a slight advantage. The Germans have also improved quite a bit.
One thing is cars these days have so much less maintenance and are much more complicated that it's kinda amazing how well they work.
People think nothing out of Detroit from the 90's can last 100K's miles, a good friend of mine in CO has a 1999 Tahoe with 290K miles. It's first major thing went up on it recently which was kinda amusing. A intake valve spring broke, he took it to the dealer and it's throwing codes left and right but there's no code for "broken intake valve spring". One of the older mechanics took over the diagnosis after one of the younger mechanics was at it for a couple hours without figuring what's wrong, the old timer figured it out. He also had a 1999 Silverado he just traded in with almost 200K miles for a new one. Had some 4WD issues but still drove OK.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-16-2011 at 06:02 AM.
11-16-2011, 11:34 AM
#58
It's a interesting thought but also a myth. I've worked in defense/space, commercial and consumer electronic systems as a engineer. The top engineers are in all three, but now-a-days it's getting more difficult to attract top engineers to NASA.
Three of my neighbors are engineers that work at Goddard Space Flight Center and they say it's very hard to recruit new grad engineers into NASA. One does several college job fairs a year, and said many students show little interest in NASA for a career.
Three of my neighbors are engineers that work at Goddard Space Flight Center and they say it's very hard to recruit new grad engineers into NASA. One does several college job fairs a year, and said many students show little interest in NASA for a career.
I think NASA is kind of a special case right now. As for more recent events, I remember seeing an article in which someone at one of the Detroit-based automakers commenting that it is difficult to attract people to move there, particularly as they often compete with companies in California or Maryland/Virginia for talent.
11-16-2011, 12:15 PM
#59
My first Avatar....
11-16-2011, 12:17 PM
#60
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You answered your own question. America is too busy building war machines rather than making machines for public consumption. If those same resources building war machines were making cars, you would see a lot better American cars.
Same thing happened to the former Soviet Union. The government interfered with the private markets by making it more lucrative to work in the public sector. Now you had the problem of too many people working for the goverment and not enough making everyday goods. Look up Peter Schiff, he explains it best.
Same thing happened to the former Soviet Union. The government interfered with the private markets by making it more lucrative to work in the public sector. Now you had the problem of too many people working for the goverment and not enough making everyday goods. Look up Peter Schiff, he explains it best.
And they aren't even good ones. At least come up with something original and logical.
11-16-2011, 12:30 PM
#61
GEEZER
Anyways, all I have done to my Vic in 14 k miles is change the oil and change the tires. Never has left me stranded once! Both of the harleys I owned prior had stranded me at least once.
Power is smooth and vibration free due to no pushrods and a counter balance motor. Mine is 100 Cubic Inches (1637cc) with a Stage One Tune, Intake and aftermarket exhaust. I have yet to lose to an Air Cooled Harley yet. I did however lose to a water Hog (Porsche) Harley that had a Stage One tune.
But the even better part about the Victory is you are riding something DIFFERENT! AND it is American made. I just cant say enough about Victory...so pleased to be an owner.
I have a couple of pics of it here in my garage file.
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11-16-2011, 01:23 PM
#62
I have an 08 GC Laredo, not a single issue since i picked it up (from Shoofin 
) about a year ago...the truck has 82k miles, and looks almost brand new. The interior doesnt have a single sign of wear, and the exterior also looks next to new. Aside form the crap gas mileage (but even that is on par with other cars of its size), this car has been great to own so far! I even installed the OEM navi, which was ridiculously easy (simple plug and play)....
) about a year ago...the truck has 82k miles, and looks almost brand new. The interior doesnt have a single sign of wear, and the exterior also looks next to new. Aside form the crap gas mileage (but even that is on par with other cars of its size), this car has been great to own so far! I even installed the OEM navi, which was ridiculously easy (simple plug and play)....
11-16-2011, 04:02 PM
#63
Senior Moderator
First off, I know nothing about motorcycles, so excuse my ignorance if it applies.
You are telling me that your 2 year old vehicle that has a whooping 14k miles on it hasn't failed yet, and you are impressed? 
11-16-2011, 04:03 PM
#64
AZ Community Team
Perhaps the greatest influence on Japanese car makers strive for quality was Deming, he was brilliant and highly motivated the likes of Toyota, Honda, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, and other Japanese companies. Toyota modelled TPS after many of his concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
Even today his philosophy still rules. His quality equation is spot on to anyone who's ever had to design and engineer something to be manufactured.
TPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System
Many of the GM people who worked at NUMMI wanted upper GM management to adopt a similar system which was met by deaf ears at the time (mid-80's).
This is one of the main reasons why the Japanese got ahead, it took a long time for the US to come around to realizing how important reliability and quality was once they lost it in the 70's/80's/90's.
A similar story happened at Porsche when they hired a former Toyota/Lexus executive who looked at how Porsche designed/developed/manufactured vehicles, he was brutally honest in his assessment but Porsche exec's took most of his recommendations. IMO, one of the reasons why Porsche has proven to be more reliable than Audi or VW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
Even today his philosophy still rules. His quality equation is spot on to anyone who's ever had to design and engineer something to be manufactured.
TPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System
Many of the GM people who worked at NUMMI wanted upper GM management to adopt a similar system which was met by deaf ears at the time (mid-80's).
This is one of the main reasons why the Japanese got ahead, it took a long time for the US to come around to realizing how important reliability and quality was once they lost it in the 70's/80's/90's.
A similar story happened at Porsche when they hired a former Toyota/Lexus executive who looked at how Porsche designed/developed/manufactured vehicles, he was brutally honest in his assessment but Porsche exec's took most of his recommendations. IMO, one of the reasons why Porsche has proven to be more reliable than Audi or VW.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-16-2011 at 04:09 PM.
11-16-2011, 04:06 PM
#65
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Motorcycles ARE different than cars. You're talking about cruiser bikes that have 1.5 or 1.6 liter engines attached to very small transmissions. Thats a lot of weight for a small frame and two wheels.
I'm not a motorcycle expert by any means but it's a whole different playing field when it comes to two wheel vehicles.
I'm not a motorcycle expert by any means but it's a whole different playing field when it comes to two wheel vehicles.
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11-17-2011, 07:33 AM
#66
14k mile on a motorcycle is considered a lot. Putting them on in 2 years.... well, that's even more impressive.
Most people ride their motorcycles as a pleasure vehicle. Some still only take them out when it's perfect weather. Now, don't get me wrong... I know plenty of people who ride them daily regardless of weather (minus snow/ice) and I'm guessing Killer is one of these guys, and they're typically the ones with the higher mileage numbers.
But overall, most people use their bike as a weekend ride and may only put a couple thousand miles a year on a bike. Example, 2009 was a very busy year for me... and except for a few local rides, I really didn't use my bike. I think I put 800 miles on it that year.
Plus, like Ken illuded to... motorcycles are very different then cars. Completely different power to weight ratios and completely different engine mechanics. It's not uncommon for them to have 11k redlines or higher... even on V-Twin engines. Take a car that has 14k miles and take a bike that has 14k miles and there is a lot more wear and tear on the bike then the car. At 14k a car is hardly even considered broken in. At 14k a bike has been through several decent services to keep it running smooth.
If my bike had 14k miles it would be nearing it's second valve adjustment!! My FJ has 64k miles and has never had anything other then basic maintenance and fluid changes...
Last edited by juniorbean; 11-17-2011 at 07:35 AM.
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11-17-2011, 08:06 AM
#67
GEEZER
My last Harley had only 8100 miles on it and needed the trans rebuilt.
Motorcycles are much different than cars.
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11-17-2011, 08:09 AM
#68
GEEZER
and yes Juiniorbean... I ride in all weather...year round. 
11-17-2011, 10:02 AM
#70
Senior Moderator
Also, I scare myself in my car sometimes. I don't want to know the urges I would have to suppress on a vehicle with that kind of power/weight ratio.
Thank you for your knowledge and patience with my ignorance. Now I know.
11-17-2011, 10:04 AM
#71
Senior Moderator
Just out of pure curiosity, what is the reliability of a Honda versus a Victory?
11-17-2011, 11:21 AM
#72
GEEZER
11-17-2011, 11:22 AM
#73
GEEZER
11-17-2011, 11:47 AM
#75
Guess we'll have to excuse your ignorance then!!
14k mile on a motorcycle is considered a lot. Putting them on in 2 years.... well, that's even more impressive.
Most people ride their motorcycles as a pleasure vehicle. Some still only take them out when it's perfect weather. Now, don't get me wrong... I know plenty of people who ride them daily regardless of weather (minus snow/ice) and I'm guessing Killer is one of these guys, and they're typically the ones with the higher mileage numbers.
But overall, most people use their bike as a weekend ride and may only put a couple thousand miles a year on a bike. Example, 2009 was a very busy year for me... and except for a few local rides, I really didn't use my bike. I think I put 800 miles on it that year.
Plus, like Ken illuded to... motorcycles are very different then cars. Completely different power to weight ratios and completely different engine mechanics. It's not uncommon for them to have 11k redlines or higher... even on V-Twin engines. Take a car that has 14k miles and take a bike that has 14k miles and there is a lot more wear and tear on the bike then the car. At 14k a car is hardly even considered broken in. At 14k a bike has been through several decent services to keep it running smooth.
If my bike had 14k miles it would be nearing it's second valve adjustment!! My FJ has 64k miles and has never had anything other then basic maintenance and fluid changes...
14k mile on a motorcycle is considered a lot. Putting them on in 2 years.... well, that's even more impressive.
Most people ride their motorcycles as a pleasure vehicle. Some still only take them out when it's perfect weather. Now, don't get me wrong... I know plenty of people who ride them daily regardless of weather (minus snow/ice) and I'm guessing Killer is one of these guys, and they're typically the ones with the higher mileage numbers.
But overall, most people use their bike as a weekend ride and may only put a couple thousand miles a year on a bike. Example, 2009 was a very busy year for me... and except for a few local rides, I really didn't use my bike. I think I put 800 miles on it that year.
Plus, like Ken illuded to... motorcycles are very different then cars. Completely different power to weight ratios and completely different engine mechanics. It's not uncommon for them to have 11k redlines or higher... even on V-Twin engines. Take a car that has 14k miles and take a bike that has 14k miles and there is a lot more wear and tear on the bike then the car. At 14k a car is hardly even considered broken in. At 14k a bike has been through several decent services to keep it running smooth.
If my bike had 14k miles it would be nearing it's second valve adjustment!! My FJ has 64k miles and has never had anything other then basic maintenance and fluid changes...
Last edited by teranfon; 11-17-2011 at 11:59 AM.
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11-17-2011, 01:29 PM
#76
GEEZER
It was under warranty...but they had the bike for almost 2 weeks waiting for trans parts. As for being a lemon..no I dont think so...they told me a bearing explded inside the case and damged the internals. Just bad luck I guess.
11-17-2011, 01:30 PM
#77
GEEZER
I have to disagree. As someone who has ridden one form of bike or another for almost fourty years, and puts on far more miles that what most riders do (some years 25 000 miles or more), I don't consider the miles on a motorcycle to be of greater detriment when compared to a car. Not for the last twenty-five or so years anyway. Many motorcycles, particularly the Japanese products, are constructed of such close tolerances and built so well that they often require less maintanence than a car. Valve adjustments are so easy they can often be done in less than an hour, and I've personally seen many motorcycles that have never required an adjustment even if they are approaching 100 000 miles. The majority of my riding friends ride the adventure style bikes, and many have traveled far greater distances with these bikes that their cars. Many of the their Africa Twins, Varaderos, Transalps, V-Stroms, and the odd GS have well over 200 000 km. on them. I have an Africa Twin sitting in my shop that has over 200 000 miles on it. It's been throughout the world several times and is still on it's original engine.
11-17-2011, 01:32 PM
#78
11-17-2011, 02:17 PM
#79
GEEZER
11-17-2011, 07:00 PM
#80
אני עומד עם ישראל
Damnit Killer now you have me all up on the Victory site drooling over a High-Ball.....