Saintor

There you go.

Saintor

Well done. That's the bottom line.

00TL-P3.2

Give that "less than ideal" happens 3-4 days a year in Houston, RWD is leading for me, considering I may have found one with 99% of what I want, in budget.

Chief F1 Fan

anyone who says someone like me is "sorely misinformed" for believing AWD is necessary for getting through winter does not have a clue. Three to five days per week I drive 80 miles (r/t) on rural roads with a lot of snow and ice on them. Every vehicle I've owned since 1989 has had winter tires put on it whether it's been a Ford F150 (rwd), Honda Accord, an Acura, CL-S, a Wrangler, a 530xi wagon or a Mitsu Eclipse GSX so I have a pretty good idea what the difference between winter tire shorn RWD and AWD vehicles do in the snow. There is no comparison available as the AWD wins every time in cornering, braking, emergency movements, acceleration or just moving in to the passing lane thru wet, slush over ice.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Holy crap.. reading some of these comments is worse than reading Facebook post on car/truck pages.

Just b/c someone has a different opinion than you doesn't necessarily mean the other person is wrong (or right for that matter). 99% of the replies in here are opinion. Opinions are different and typically based on individual experiences. Deal with it. Some of you need to grow the f#ck up and learn to converse...

00TL-P3.2

Weeding through the personal back & forth, there's some good discussion in here.

Obviously, those who deal with lots of winter have a different preference to those of us with long summers.

kurtatx

Yeah, I feel like the reality of living in a place where snow is a possibility changes things quite a bit. If I had two cars for one person (ie I wasn't married) and I lived in a snowy climate, I would have a RWD car and an AWD car. I obviously do not live in that situation (married in Texas). It's kind of weird to ask "If you had one car..." because most of us do have one car and whatever we have dictates our answer to the question.

That being said, I object to the idea that killer and my Audis along with the SH-AWD Acuras are gimmicks. They accelerate with different wheels than their FWD counterparts and they handle significantly better regardless of condition

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, I'm sticking to my claim; in your list I only see one RWD vehicle and it is a pickup truck. If you'd had a 530i (which I had) with winter rubber on it, you would be singing a different tune.

In my case I live in rural New Hampshire where the two-lane roads wind around and over hill and dale; a well balanced RWD vehicle shod with snow tires is easily a match for heavy winter weather.

SamDoe1

Lets see these studies. If they show any more than a 5ft difference in stopping distance (which is noise level in a test like that) I'd be shocked. The biggest difference maker for stopping distance is the surface and tires. The number of driven wheels is irrelevant other than weight which is not that big of a deal when it comes to brakes as cars have many times the stopping ability of the weight/power of the car.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I'll see what I can dig up on the differences, however, the same challenge can be tossed back at you; lets see a study which supports your claim.

Regarding the relative weight and braking in winter conditions, it has nothing to do with braking power and everything to do with the weight being stopped on a slippery surface.

kurtatx

Hail to the

Sarlacc

Saintor

Well, you keep acting like a genuine imbecile., Nothing more, nothing less..

Now is the time to be back on the subject.

Sarlacc

Legend2TL

+1, for the vast majority of time where I live FWD is all we need. My wife got a 2017 CRV and in the EXL trim is available in FWD or 4WD.
We choose 4WD as we live at the bottom of a steep hill and that's where 4WD shines and we've needed it in the past with the snow we get.

This is a highly debatable hot topic, but what amazes me is how people tend to forget the laws of physics when debating and analyzing the situation.
Many (most?) people don't understand the basic laws of physics, force vectors/circle and static/dynamic coefficients of friction of tires on various surface conditions.
It's the difference of being in control and not (i.e. sliding/spinning). The most important factor in all of this is tires and their performance relative to the surface conditions.
AWD/4WD definitely helps on hills in slick conditions but does help little for cornering and nothing for stopping. Even the little in cornering can be surpassed by ECU electronics in RWD/FWD vehicles with controlling torque in tire spin and excessive yaw rate situations.

FWIW, a little about static/dynamics coefficient of friction for tires and whay that's so critical in rain/snow/ice conditions.
The large difference of dynamic/static coefficient of friction in rain/snow/ice cases is what cases people to lose and not regain control of their vehicles once the static coefficient turns to dynamic.
The difference in the dry is typically very small.

Friction and Automobile Tires

Vehicle force circle, which is also critical to understand that driving force is the only case where 4WD/AWD helps. If you're cornering and maintaining speed there should be a zero force factor (except for tire/vehicle friction).



And it's been mentioned here that many exotics do use AWD, for racing or high power applications it's use is highly effective despite the weight penalty of the extra differentials and driveshafts.
It is interesting to note how the Porsche 911 Turbo has AWD but the GT3's are RWD, another debate but a interesting debate/discussion.
I have seen the AWD Audi TramsAm cars race at the Detroit Grand Prix in the 80's, despite being less powerful and having extra ballast weight that their RWD competitors, the Audi's would easily pull away on the corners and beat them.
Again, it's a interesting discussion/debate if kept civil.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Legend2TL, I was going to post something about the Friction Circle yesterday but got sidetracked. Glad you were on the same page.

Legend2TL

^ +1 need to bring in the laws of physics

And to show there is no right or wrong here (like the Porsche 911 Turbo and GT3).
When Gordon Murray was designing the McLaren F1, he stuck with simpler and lighter RWD over AWD (2 more differentials and 3 more driveshafts),
Despite not having any electronics for vehcile dynamics (ABS/stability/traction).
Murray and his team solved their vehicle stability with light weight/high downforce/sticky tires.

It all comes down to compromises, applications, situations.

ttribe

Let's give it a rest.

SamDoe1

C&D In depth review of 2018 330i RWD. They didn't review the AWD but did compare it to the A4 Quattro which should be a fairly decent comparison.

Acceleration (0-60):
BMW (RWD): 5.4s
Audi (AWD): 5.2s

Cornering:
BMW (RWD): 0.83g
Audi (AWD): 0.90g

Braking (70-0)
BMW (RWD): 167ft
Audi (AWD): 155ft

Fuel Economy (City/Combined/Hwy):
BMW (RWD): 24/27/34
Audi (AWD): 24/27/34

Specs:
BMW (RWD): 2.0L I4 Turbo 248hp, 258lb-ft, 3541lbs, 8AT
Audi (AWD): 2.0L I4 Turbo 252hp, 273lb-ft, 3626lbs, 7AT

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...h-model-review

So, based on your rationale that RWD is so much better, the BMW should have wiped the floor with the Audi on everything. The Audi is marginally more powerful but also heavier, dimensionally they are essentially the same size in almost every dimension, and they have the same-ish engine. So do tell how the Audi seems to perform better in damn near every single category all while netting the identical fuel economy...

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Unless you're doing a full apples to apples, right down to the tires used, then any comparison is utterly meaningless.

Relative to your comments; please show me where I have stated RWD was superior to AWD "on everything". Here's a clue, I've never said that; you're just putting words in my mouth.

SamDoe1

Yup, it definitely comes down to compromises but when it comes to a daily driver people don't want compromises. So while RWD is fine for a McLaren or stripped out Porsche GT3...people aren't going to DD those.

Also, definitely agree with friction circle. All things equal, a RWD version of an identical car will be faster in the hands of a pro on a dry racetrack. When in the hands of a ham fisted normal typical driver and/or on a wet/slippery track, it will most definitely not be faster.

SamDoe1

Oh and:


( at how young they look)

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I feel like I've been posting this same shit like every 3 months for the past 5 years.

Ban this dumbass Saintor. He's a kid.

TacoBello

Personally... I don't really care which one has the slightly better performance. Honestly, who cares? Are any of you really driving that fast on your daily commute, where seconds count? If so, let me direct you to your local police authority so that you can drop off your driver's licence.

All I know is, it is very easy to drift and slide around in an AWD car, vs a RWD car. Whether the AWD is front or rear biased, doesn't really make a difference- AWD is much easier to control when sliding- the real difference being whether you are over or understeering while sliding. With zero talent and zero effort, I was able to slide with a 2G RL, or a number of various Subarus. Drifting in my RWD SC'd Miata, or my 370z... it's a whole different animal and one that is much harder to regain control if you push too hard.

I think that is the bigger reason why cars have AWD vs being just RWD. An inexperienced driver can recoup control of their car much easier. A Porsche Carrera Turbo comes in AWD guise... and it's more for the "everyday man". While the Porsche GT3 comes in RWD, but it's intended more for the actual racer. Whether the people buying them fit either category is a different story. But really, I think that's all it comes down to

dopeboy1

I don't think anyone NEEDS awd to get around in winter. I drove a fwd for 9 years and got around perfectly fine. But I much prefer awd and believe it to be superior in snow. Often when im driving in 6-12 inches of snow ill see people with either fwd or rwd spinning their tires and not really going anywhere. While I drive right past them in my sh-awd barely noticing theres snow on the ground. I realize that tires and how a person drives has a lot to do with it but ive never seen an awd vehicle spinning all 4 of its tires and not going anywhere.

kurtatx

Yeah, you don't need AWD in the snow. FWD is fine and you can survive with RWD, but if you want snow control and more fun than FWD in the summer, a performance AWD is the way to go, IMHO.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I have no comment on snow. I'm in LA. We don't see that cocaine falling from the sky.

Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

I've never driven in snow, probably will never drive in snow.

I do want to drive up to Tahoe one day, but, I don't know how to drive in snow, so I will probably never go.

Legend2TL

Daily driver people may not want compromises but DD's are typically very compromise kind of vehicles in many aspects (price, performance, features,...) but IMO they excel in providing maximum usability/functionality.

The overall discussion (I have a hard time calling it a debate since I'm kinda neutral) is fun however.

One of the more interesting aspects of exotic car design was early 90's.
Their drivetrain config also reflects some of the stuff being debated here. All were mid-engine supercars but

1) McLaren F1 had a carbon tub, RWD and NA V12.
2) Bugatti EB110 was also carbon tub but had a quad turbo V12 but AWD
3) Jaguar XJ220 was AL chassis originally a NA V12 AWD but switched to a twin turbo V6 RWD when TWR took over development of the project.

Although the XJ220 outsold the F1 and EB110 combined, the F1 is cherished today as one of the best all-time extotic designs ever.
I feel that mostly was due to it's chief creator/designer Gordon Murray having a extremely strong vision/idea and will of what he wanted and getting his way in the end.
That in itself is an really amazing story in McLaren's official F1 book, Murray did not get his way on the MB/McLaren SLR which made him pretty bitter on that project.

Can also use the late 80's and Ferrari F40 (RWD) and Porsche 959 (AWD) in terms of what the engineers wanted to achieve.
Not much has changed as the current Ferrari LaFerrari is RWD and Porsche 918 is AWD
So both AWD and RWD drivetrain configurations have and continue to be used for exotics and supercars (McLaren, Lambo, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari,...)

So it's always interesting to see what different designers/engineers pick their drivetrain for their vehicles and some let the customer choose with flexible chassis/drivetrain platforms.
One thing that has made RWD far easier to drive in the snow/ice/rain is modern electronics and S/W which can help even haphazard drivers.

At the end of the day I don't see RWD or AWD superior, it really depends on the application and use.

mrmako

Subaru has made quite a good living selling AWD exclusively (until the BRZ came along). And they are selling like hotcakes.

Now if they would bring back a real transmission and make the Legacy a sports car again

Saintor

Mechanical LSD would be the perfect answer, negligible drawback (unlike AWD). It is beyond me why it is STANDARD on a f* $25K Civic Si and not in a $40K TLX or Q50.

1killercls

TacoBello

A mechanical LSD is not a substitute for AWD.

Once again, my fwd, mechanical LSD equipped, 2006 6MT TL cannot hold a candle to even the shittiest AWD equipped car when it comes to traction. All I get is wheel spin and the traction control light going off and power cut to the wheels when trying to get moving on any ice or snow covered surface. And yes, I am on quality winter tires also. Every. Single. Year.

Time and again, even "shitty" AWD CR-Vs can take off from me at a red light if there is any snow or ice on the road surface, regardless of how much I try to go easy on the throttle. That's why an LSD does not come standard on many cars. You don't understand their purpose.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Because TLX or Q50 are commuter cars.

TacoBello

So is my LSD equipped 06 TL. What's your point?

SamDoe1

Because the purpose of the LSD is not the same as the purpose of AWD. There are some AWD cars that also come with a LSD or a locking diff. Mind blown?

Please stop. You're already deep enough in the hole, just put the shovel down.

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

Not like it's any of my business or anything but.

Moderation aside, I know you (and all of us, really) agree with Sarlacc

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

For topic's sake:

RWD for handling & overall excitement.

AWD for duh launches.

TacoBello

oonowindoo

I buy RWD because it is more fun.
If you are looking to hit the Apex in every turn and get around your parking lot in the shortest time possible, the go with AWD.

FWD or RWD with a good set of winter tires and some common sense will get you through winter just fine. I grew up in a city next to Russia, i dont even think most of the ppl knew what AWD was back in the days and they all survived just fine.
AWD with BS tires will get you into trouble faster than 2WD with a good set of winter tires.