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I don't have a CR subscription, but I'd never thought I'd see the day when CR no longer recommends the civic. Although, that new civic just looks really weird to me. Weird looking and unreliable haha.
I don't have a CR subscription, but I'd never thought I'd see the day when CR no longer recommends the civic. Although, that new civic just looks really weird to me. Weird looking and unreliable haha.
I honestly can't say I beleive these publications at all, ezpecially when they put bmw ahead of nissan and honda...I mean really?
I honestly can't say I beleive these publications at all, ezpecially when they put bmw ahead of nissan and honda...I mean really?
This report is based on over half a million surveys, and covers model years from 2000 to 2017. During this time period Honda has issued A LOT of recalls and safety campaigns, most notable of late are the ever increasing Takata air bag recalls.... over 10 million affected Honda's in the U.S. alone (over 21 million worldwide). This alone would have put a big ding in their score. Then there were all the 6th and 7th gen Accord, 2nd and 3rd gen Odyssey, and 1st gen Pilot transmission failures and lawsuits. There were all those excessive oil consumption and fouled spark plug complaints and class action lawsuits for the 8th gen Accord and 3rd gen CR-V.
The most notable and recent recalls that I can remember were for the new 10th gen Civic. There was a recall and stop sale early this year for the 10th Civic due to a missing or misplaced piston pin snap rings that could cause an engine stall or failure. Then there is the recall Honda issued 2 weeks ago covering 350,000 2016 model year Civics to check/fix faulty electronic parking brakes.
This year we gathered data on more than half a million vehicles, covering more than 300 models from 2000 to 2016, plus a few early 2017s. With that much information, Consumer Reports can predict the future reliability of established models. We can also make predictions on new or redesigned models based on similar models and brand history.
While BMW might be 9th and Honda 10th, they both have a reliability score of 57, so they're kind of tied. Just because Honda's 10th and Acura's 12th doesn't mean they're no longer reliable. They are still in the reliable category.
On the bright side, Acura moved up 6 places. They were #18 last year.
This year we converted our Predicted Reliability Score to a 0 to 100 point scale, with the average rating falling between 41 and 60 points. Better or worse than average ratings fall on either side of that range.
As has been stated before in this thread, reliability rankings are flawed these days. You get the same ding whether you go in because the engine is blowing black smoke out the tailpipe or if your left turn signal bulb dies, there's no weighted scale. With the amount of tech in the FCA models (which, BTW, have the best infotainment system around these days as said by NUMEROUS review outfits), every software update counts against it. So while my Jeep might have 8 software updates to fix minor issues while that Audi is getting two replaced turbos, the Jeep gets a worse score.
As has been stated before in this thread, reliability rankings are flawed these days. You get the same ding whether you go in because the engine is blowing black smoke out the tailpipe or if your left turn signal bulb dies, there's no weighted scale. With the amount of tech in the FCA models (which, BTW, have the best infotainment system around these days as said by NUMEROUS review outfits), every software update counts against it. So while my Jeep might have 8 software updates to fix minor issues while that Audi is getting two replaced turbos, the Jeep gets a worse score.
Good point. Never been a fan of CR and this is good point. They need to separate issues that causes driveability/safety concerns (engine mechanicals, drivetrains) vs convenience issues (certain parts of infotainment, etc.) vs other.
Not to mention certain manufacturers get ahead of mandated recalls and get on top of things...whereas others (ie GM) hide deadly faults until they are dug up...which should be huge dings imo.
Anyone else notice how high up Kia and Hyundai are? And this isn't the first year they are.
I guess that's what happens when you decide to go all-in on your car company and strive to be the best. I remember when Honda/Acura had the same mentality
And really, there's no excuse for it. H/Ks pack a lot of tech in their cars these days also.
Not to mention certain manufacturers get ahead of mandated recalls and get on top of things...whereas others (ie GM) hide deadly faults until they are dug up...which should be huge dings imo.
Or like how Honda knew about faulty air bag inflators since 2004 but didn't issue a recall on them until almost a decade later.
A New York Times report says that the faulty airbags that can cause metal fragments to be expelled in a crash and which led to simultaneous recalls from several automakers earlier this summer weren’t taken seriously for years despite horrifying injuries. And while Honda was one of 11 automakers sharing the same airbag supplier, that company in particular is alleged to have known about the problem well before the others and to have kept critical details such as airbag ruptures, injuries, and deaths involving its vehicles away from federal regulators and the public.
According to the report, Honda and airbag supplier Takata knew about the problem since 2004, which is when an airbag inflator exploded in a 2002 Honda Accord involved in a crash in Alabama, sending metal fragments through the bag and injuring the driver. Honda later learned of three airbag ruptures in 2007 and settled with the victims, says the Times. Honda also is said to have settled with a Civic driver in 2008 who had “blood gushing” from her neck after being hit with a two-inch fragment when the airbag deployed after a “minor accident.” Another woman driving a Honda Accord is reported to have “bled to death in front of her three children” in 2009 when her car’s airbag sent shrapnel into her neck and chest.
If the 2018 TLX sport came manual...I'd give it a go.
No you wouldn't.
You have a Vagon that isn't going anywhere. You have an s2000 that isn't going anywhere. Unless it's for Betty, but she doesn't want to drive a manual.
Unless you really want a 3rd car for yourself? That's a lot of cars to take care of.
Anyone else notice how high up Kia and Hyundai are? And this isn't the first year they are.
I guess that's what happens when you decide to go all-in on your car company and strive to be the best. I remember when Honda/Acura had the same mentality
And really, there's no excuse for it. H/Ks pack a lot of tech in their cars these days also.
Where is our resident to inform us that that must be wrong that honda/acura are much more reliable.
CR sends out surveys to subscribers of their own website and the CR magazine.
Asks owners about the previous 12-mo experience with their car. Started in 2006, now has 10yrs worth of data.
Excludes issues resulting from: damage/accidents, minor things (not considered serious due to time/cost/etc.), solely recall issue.
Data scientists, social scientists and statisticians analyze and compile the data.
2016 survey had over 500,000 data points. They consider a minimum of 100 data points per vehicle model as valid. Usual data range is between 200-400 surveys per model.
These areas: engine-major, cooling system, transmission-major, and driveline are weighed more heavily than others. But CR does not give out how much more weigh they give. They do report ALL problems in the survey.
They do also weigh/account for mileage.
They do not/cannot account for maintenance variations from the owners. (and also, I presume, driving habits or driving environments, idling time, etc.)
Good to know some more insights. And also would be interesting to see 10yr trends/statistical moves. While certain brands are moved down into the "yellow" range it looks bad but is it within a normal variation.
Also selection bias is inevitable, as they can only survey those who buy/subscribe to CR website/magazine (and how many on Azine or in the general public are CR subscribers? I don't know anyone who subscribes to CR) not to mention inability to account for driving habits and maintenance. So in essence you are calculating reliability of a model year where tens to hundreds of thousands of cars are sold on 100-500 cars/data points.....would like even more sample size imo...
Some data would be interesting to see but would never be revealed...such as in many other studies...you have an overall survey of the demographic characteristics of your study population: ie, average age, gender, race, income, etc. etc. Of course this would give away CR target customers and likely is a corporate proprietary/secret information.
Also some brands are superstars....ie Toyota and Lexus. And I think many of the big stereotypes are not as true as they seem: ie, all Japanese cars are incredibly reliable, all US domestics are terrible, etc.
Even with a 55% reliable rate, that means 45% of the other cars are just fine for that year.
It would be interesting to see actual data for each specific car model...they converted to just a 0-100 number which to me is a bit too simplistic. They said themselves within each brand certain models can be stars or crap.
I think on average Honda/Acura (while not having the best reputation on this forum) is still a trustworthy brand but other brands are catching up (Kia, Hyundai, Buick). Also have to note that this is only year by year stats. Would be interesting if they decided to do analysis of a 10-year long data set on reliability of all the brands.
CR sends out surveys to subscribers of their own website and the CR magazine
Asks owners about the previous 12-mo experience with their car. Started in 2006, now has 10yrs worth of data
Excludes issues resulting from: damage/accidents, minor things (not considered serious due to time/cost/etc.), solely recall issue.
Data scientists, social scientists and statisticians analyze and compile the data.
2016 survey had over 500,000 data points. They consider a minimum of 100 data points per vehicle model as valid. Usual data range is between 200-400 surveys per model.
These areas: engine-major, cooling system, transmission-major, and driveline are weighed more heavily than others. But CR does not give out how much more weigh they give. They do report ALL problems in the survey.
They do also weigh/account for mileage.
They do not/cannot account for maintenance variations from the owners. (and also, I presume, driving habits or driving environments, idling time, etc.)
Yes, but what constitutes an "issue" with each of these areas varies widely. Also, they are utilizing their readers and surveys to determine what "major" means. To little Sally who barely knows that the right pedal is go and the left is stop, a CEL is a major issue regardless of if the issue is lost compression or a loose sensor plug.
Yes, but what constitutes an "issue" with each of these areas varies widely. Also, they are utilizing their readers and surveys to determine what "major" means. To little Sally who barely knows that the right pedal is go and the left is stop, a CEL is a major issue regardless of if the issue is lost compression or a loose sensor plug.
Right. I don't think we have access to their actual questionnaire questions and how they can be answered (just a checkbox or what?)
And yes the demographic of the respondents can be huge. CR tried to do a good PR piece by introducing their subscribers as "educated" and "intelligent" which was hilarious when I was reading it.
But yes I think the age is probably QUITE skewed in this sample....and so you likely have lot of older owners represented here. As I said...not sure how many young people subscribe to CR these days.
Also the several hundred data points seems decent but again when you look at how many models are sold annually (tens of thousands) it can be a tiny percentage of the total.
Acura sold about 47,000 TLXs in 2015. If we take the high end of 400 car data points from CR surveys...that means 400/47,000 or about 0.8% of the total sold cars were included in this reliability survey.
Of course we don't have the raw numbers but would be more interesting to note. Seems like they may have an external validity issue...where you stake 1% of the sample and apply it to 99% of the cars.
Yes, but what constitutes an "issue" with each of these areas varies widely. Also, they are utilizing their readers and surveys to determine what "major" means. To little Sally who barely knows that the right pedal is go and the left is stop, a CEL is a major issue regardless of if the issue is lost compression or a loose sensor plug.
So what you're saying is that minor problems are completely ok for a car. So a 1000 issues is all ok, as long as they are minor That's still a trip to the dealer, or wasted time of your own diagnosing, etc. the majority of people these days do not work on their own cars. A CEL is a major cause of concern, because I'm willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has an OBDII scanner available. Any trip that requires a visit to the dealership is a major inconvenience, as you're either wasting your time sitting there, or trying to get in on a shuttle or get a loaner car... which you'd likely not get for a minor issue.
Car enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the population. Car enthusiasts competent with tools and who have automotive knowledge make up an even smaller part of the population. Just look at AZ and all the ridiculous threads that come up everyday.
If car manufacturers feel it necessary to cram every last gizmo into cars these days, THEY should ensure they all work as they should, for the entire warranty period. The manufacturers have no one to blame other then themselves, trying to one up each other at any chance they can.
So what you're saying is that minor problems are completely ok for a car. So a 1000 issues is all ok, as long as they are minor That's still a trip to the dealer, or wasted time of your own diagnosing, etc. the majority of people these days do not work on their own cars. A CEL is a major cause of concern, because I'm willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has an OBDII scanner available. Any trip that requires a visit to the dealership is a major inconvenience, as you're either wasting your time sitting there, or trying to get in on a shuttle or get a loaner car... which you'd likely not get for a minor issue.
Car enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the population. Car enthusiasts competent with tools and who have automotive knowledge make up an even smaller part of the population. Just look at AZ and all the ridiculous threads that come up everyday.
If car manufacturers feel it necessary to cram every last gizmo into cars these days, THEY should ensure they all work as they should, for the entire warranty period. The manufacturers have no one to blame other then themselves, trying to one up each other at any chance they can.
I agree. We should definitely not excuse or apologize for substandard car-making. And certainly my somewhat critical/questioning tone of the CR survey is not intended to defend Honda/Acura or Jeep/Chrysler/Volvo of any of their faults in auto making. But I'm always looking to see if there are areas of improvement and critique....and that these CR reports...like alot of other things, are only one slice of the pie and we can use it as one thing to help us guide our decisions but we shouldn't also take it as gospel-truth either and that reality is likely more nuanced.
And IMO, to swear off any Jeep/Chrysler for life or to devote your entire life to buying only Honda/Toyota based on this one singular report is likely not the wises thing to do.
So what you're saying is that minor problems are completely ok for a car. So a 1000 issues is all ok, as long as they are minor That's still a trip to the dealer, or wasted time of your own diagnosing, etc. the majority of people these days do not work on their own cars. A CEL is a major cause of concern, because I'm willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has an OBDII scanner available. Any trip that requires a visit to the dealership is a major inconvenience, as you're either wasting your time sitting there, or trying to get in on a shuttle or get a loaner car... which you'd likely not get for a minor issue.
Car enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the population. Car enthusiasts competent with tools and who have automotive knowledge make up an even smaller part of the population. Just look at AZ and all the ridiculous threads that come up everyday.
If car manufacturers feel it necessary to cram every last gizmo into cars these days, THEY should ensure they all work as they should, for the entire warranty period. The manufacturers have no one to blame other then themselves, trying to one up each other at any chance they can.
That's not at all what I'm saying. My point wasn't that it's ok to have 1000 minor problems but instead that the data that they are presenting is inherently flawed because it isn't properly evaluated or measured. The way you quantify "reliability" should not 100% based on dealer visits but should be properly weighted based on issue, severity, safety concern, etc.
I agree completely with all of your statements but the fact of the matter is that a safety concern or a major issue causing the vehicle to be out of service for a long time shouldn't be weighted the same as an infotainment software update. Manufacturers should absolutely make sure that stuff is good to go for the warranty period but when it comes to software updates, it's not possible. How many times does your phone and computer get updated? It's almost never a hardware issue anymore as most cars on the road today are pretty solid for 200k miles on the hardware front, it's mostly software bugs and gremlins that get stuff down.
10-24-2016, 11:54 PM
to inform us that that must be wrong that honda/acura are much more reliable.
That's still a trip to the dealer, or wasted time of your own diagnosing, etc. the majority of people these days do not work on their own cars. A CEL is a major cause of concern, because I'm willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has an OBDII scanner available. Any trip that requires a visit to the dealership is a major inconvenience, as you're either wasting your time sitting there, or trying to get in on a shuttle or get a loaner car... which you'd likely not get for a minor issue.
