Christopher.

Well, no that wasn't the only consideration. Going in to the dealership that day I thought I was going to buy a Honda (I was ready to buy it the same day) - either CR-V (but the engine was too small, not even 2.0L!) or an Accord, or possibly an Odyssey - but one thing for sure was, before I decided, I had to at least try a Civic Type R - I knew that much.

As to why I didn't buy the Accord in the end: 1) they were out of stock, and, 2) the Honda dealer was unpleasant/rude so I didn't want to give them my business. I essentially bought an Acura because Honda insulted me when I asked to test drive the Type R. They think their Type R is too fancy and expensive to let me test drive it or some such nonsense, yet the Mercedes Benz dealer down the road will gladly let me test their car costing 3x more without hesitation. Volkswagen was more than happy to let me test drive their GTi when I went to VW, etc, etc, etc - what the Hell Honda?!? I complained to Honda Corporate about their dealer and they basically said what the dealer does is up to the dealer, well screw them and their arrogance/rudeness. Yes, of course it bothered me that the Acura I was buying was also a Honda product (don't tell me you can't do anything about a dealer behaving badly, selling YOUR cars), but at least the Acura dealer was pleasant to deal with.

Ugh, thinking about that experience again leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it's going to take years of different behavior/attitude (less rude/arrogant) from Honda dealers before my opinion of them can be repaired after that experience.

SamDoe1

Dealers are not affiliated with the make past what sits on their lot. If you didn't like this Honda dealer, go find another. They are dime a dozen. If you are buying new, then you don't even need to set foot in a dealer, you can do it all over email and probably get a better price in doing so.

The CTR is a unique car for them, they won't let you drive it unless they think you're serious because people don't want to buy a CTR with 500 miles already on the clock from test drives. If you walk in and say you're interested in a CRV/Accord but just want to try out the car for kicks, they'll tell you to pound sand. I've had no issues with dealerships letting me drive Focus RS's and Golf R's because I'm genuinely interested in picking up one of them and made it clear what my intentions were. The C Class you drove at the Benz dealer might as well be their Civic. Go over there to check out the C class and let me know if they let you take the S65 AMG out for a spin just to see how it drives.

At the end of the day, you bought an Acura for the badge. It's fine as long as you admit it to yourself.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I gotta tell y'all, even the who carburetor argument is bogus; I grew up and started driving well before I bought my first fuel injected car in 1979 (a very cool Scirocco) and the thing is, a properly set up carbureted engine will run perfectly well after thirty seconds following a cold start in extreme conditions. Why why then did the whole myth of a necessary warmup following a cold start? Glad you asked; time to enlist our friends Peabody and Sherman, "Sherman, kindly set the Way-Back Machine to 1946."

Up to and especially through the end of WWII, many of the best piston engine mechanics worked on air cooled radials. These engines, which were used in everything from tanks to aircraft, feature "choke" style cylinder bores, what this means is when the cylinder bore is cold, the top of the bore has a smaller diameter than the bottom of the bore. If you were to start one of these beasts up and run the engine up in RPMs and power, the piston would heat up much faster than the top of the cylinder bore; the likelihood of significant damage, including seizing the engine, was very high. Once the cylinder bore was sufficiently warmed up, typically measured by the Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT), the bore was fairly uniform in diameter from top to bottom. This still holds true for the venerable Lycoming or Continental engines in most of the General Aviation fleet world wide.

Liquid cooled engines are very different, they are manufactured with a straight bore due to the fact the coolant is able to keep the temperatures of the bore fairly uniform from top to bottom.

So, back to 1946, many-MANY of the piston engine mechanics from every branch of the military set up shops to work on cars; given a very great many of them were air-cooled mechanics and were taught to properly warm up engines before applying any power, they never questioned that wisdom and passed it along to customers, family, friends, and most significantly, proteges; the proteges (and their proteges...) in turn propagated the myth until this very day.

Joecop67

Shadow2056

With us, people have to show the ability to buy the car. We've gotten dozens of internet inquiries on the Type R. 95% of them are people who just wanted to see it and won't buy. 3% wanted a discount. 1% wanted a different color.1% actually bought it. We have a big tuner scene here and get a lot of fan to come by just to look. Like when we put our Si out front, so man people stopped by just to LOOK at it then said "I don't like the new design." Mercedes are common. The Type Rs are numbered vehicles and each dealer gets only a set amount. If some fanboy came in and test drove it and wrecks it, we don't have another one for months. Like the auto show I went to as a Honda rep. There was supposed to be one there but the truck driver backed up under tree and the roof got messed up. We didn't have a replacement so we had to put a Sport Touring Hatchback in there. So at least a credit app has to be filled out to sort out the serious buyers from the fanboys who just want to drive or sit in it.

But being arrogant is something that shouldn't be tolerated by a dealership and it's upper staff. We had a couple of people who got yelled at by the General Manager because of the rude way they spoke to customers.

Christopher.

No, not Roush - I wish I had taken the time to visit them also, unfortunately I did not want to take more time looking at Hondas once I experienced dealing with Acura instead.

Lindsey Honda - and I should fill in the story a little more. I started off by contacting the "Internet Sales" and I asked "Can I come in to test drive the Civic Type R"? And she responded bluntly with just "No you can't" and I was taken aback, I said so and she replies "I did not mean to be rude, I'm sorry you felt that I was rude to you" yada yada... I told her straight up "I had been ready to come in and purchase a $35,000 car THAT day, not "maybe" but honestly all set to purchase - but I'm not going to buy a new Honda without test driving the Type R first. Well, eventually she emails me back and says: "OK, I got approval from my manager to let you test drive the Type R, can you come in tomorrow?" A little while later I say yes, I'll come in tomorrow. When I get there and explain that I'm there to test drive the Type R they look at me like I'm batshit crazy and after I explain that I'd already arrainged it they say "well, the owner sold it to his friend just a little while ago and there's NO WAY they would let you test drive it" (In my head I'm thinking "well fuck you too, we're off to a great start"... But I don't say that... I ask them some questions like how much are they marking up the Type R - and they tell me $10,0000. I say hmm, I call other dealers in Columbus and as them - of the two I talk to one is up charging $2,500 and the other $0, he says he'll sell it to me at MSRP. I ask the Lindsey guy some questions such like how long until they can get another and tha the most other dealers are upcharging is $2,500 they say "We don't know/can't tell you when we'll get another and no, we won't budge on the price". At this point, I'm even less happy with this bozo dealership, but, I'm there, may as well test drive the new Accord. I like it, OK I'll buy one of the 2.0T (even though I think they're assholes, I need a new car) - turns out they sold the last of the 2.0T Touring or EX-L Accord that they had in stock while I was talking to the guy. Also, they give me a price over $1,000 lower than they'd promised for my 2014 Toyota Sienna trade in, so I say "OK, well, I think I want to take a look at Acuras then" and they let me know there's an Acura dealership right up the road about a minute away.

The Acura dealership was a different experience than Honda, they seemed more like they knew how to provide good customer service, how to treat a customer with respect, and how to make the customer feel like they actually want your business - whereas the Hodna dealer was like "fuck you, my car will sell whether you buy it or not". Acura offered me over $1,000 more for my trade in and was willing to give me the "TrueCar average price" for the 2018 3.5L V6 FWD TLX, which was about $4,000 off MSRP. I knew that Honda was not going to give me $4,000 off when they couldn't even keep their hot new car in stock, I really liked the TLX, and I was ready to buy so I pulled the trigger and said OK.

I can walk into a Mercedes dealership wearing ratty jeans, old tennis shoes, and a T-Shirt and they will OFFER me to test drive a car - I don't even have to ask. Once I was at the Honda dealership and my son saw the CTR in person, I was ready to buy one - the decision was not up to my kids, but I did want to let them have some input and he loved it, it didn't take much to convince me - I would have signed the paper right then for MSRP, but a $10K upcharge? No, frankly, that's offensive when other dealers in the same city will sell it for $0 over MSRP...

Joecop67

Well, that sucks. You didn't go to Lindsey Acura did you? They are the same company.

Christopher.

Sure, I maybe poor compared to some of Acura's customer base, but...

My credit score is over 815, I don't pay a mortgage or rent (I own a house free and clear), I had a trade in worth $16,000, and I had a company car plan paying for the car on top of all that (as if that hadn't been more than sufficient even without the car plan?!?) - and they still want to basically laugh in my face about test driving their "expensive" $35,000 car?!? I understand that somebody buying a CTR wants one that hasn't been driven, too bad, deal with it, find a way to provide test drives to customers unless, you really don't give a shit about your customer? "Fan boys" want to drive it? Duh, make it happen, "fan boys" grow up into people that buy new cars when they're older - do you really want to be a prick to them now?

I'm really not happy with Honda's "sorry, nothing we can do about that" attitude, they should have some control over dealerships that represent them to the public.

Yep - I did. So the guy at the top still makes some $$$ off me. Not the most satisfactory result, but, I like my car and I just won't deal with Lindsey next time it's time to buy a new car. It was Saturday evening and getting late, I wanted to wrap up my car buying and be done with it. Maybe sharing my story about how douchey they were will compensate and drive a few customers to another dealer. That's fair enough compensation IMO. They were not complete assholes, I suppose my beef is just with the owner/manager whoever the guy was that "just sold the CTR to his friend" and it's simply unfortunate that some of the employees just don't know how to be "great" customer service type employees. I worked in customer service for years, and if I had promised a customer something and then had to tell them "sorry, I can't follow through on my promise" I'd be really upset and trying to sincerely apologize to the customer...

Are you in Columbus? I'll hit you guys up next time I need a new car, where are you working? edit: Oops - sorry, briefly had you confused with the other guy who is from the car dealership who responded in the previous post. I assume he's not in Columbus....

If you bought 5 Hondas all from the same dealer (Roush) then I guess they treated you right I like giving repeat business to a company when I feel like they have treated me well as a customer.

Christopher.

"C Class", haha no... I was in Manhattan and the Mercedes I sat in had double pane windows at a sticker price of $150,000 - they ASKED me if I'd like to test drive it. I said thank you, but no, we are honestly just wanting to look at your fine car here, not intending to purchase - they still said, well you're welcome to have a test drive if you like, just let us know".

The badge was part of it - some of my life I have spent being very poor, and sitting in that car, feeling the quality of the fit and finish when I noticed I could close the trunk, gently, with my pinky finger - yes, the idea of owning that particular $40K car appealed to me. But, there were honestly multiple other factors of equal significance. The '18 TLX really is aesthetically head and shoulders above the '18 Accord with it's weird big grill and too slanted back side (it's not a Ferrari or Lambo, it's a Sedan, let it look like a sedan), even if the 2.0T is a more advanced engine, I still wanted one last V6. Also, the Acura is simply on a different level in terms of how quiet it is, and the feeling of it's ride quality. It is comfortable and refined, yet not at all "floaty" or lacking a feel of "solid connectedness to the road". Yeah, I know it doesn't feel like a Porsche sports car (my uncle has a 911 Turbo and my roomate in college had a 944) but my purpose for this car is 90% to drive my family around town.

Let me repeat something I said somewhere else, and maybe it's because of the "badge" on this car (it's certainly not because of my handsome good looks :P KEK)? But I was in a Kroger parking lot driving slowly, and I see a woman that I could best describe as a "yoga pants wearing soccer mom milf" and as I drive past her, and smile, she nods her head "yes". I didn't even ask a question, what does this "yes" even mean? Hehe... Have you hear that phrase: "If you have to ask, you'll never know"?

Joecop67

Same here regarding repeat business. I've had 2 bad experiences with the same Toyota dealership that's in the Dublin are. Might be that they look down on people that they feel they can't afford their cars. Their loss, both times they drove me back to the previously mentioned Honda dealers and I bought a cr-v and an accord.

Christopher.

That was an A-Spec, not "Type S" by the way (sadly, they have not made a "Type S" TLX yet). I hope someone keeps one in nice condition for you, to sell to you in 2028...

When I was a young man I couldn't even afford to buy a 5 year old Honda Civic - but, I happened across a Bat-Mobile looking sleek beast of a car, sitting in the midst of some real junkers, while I was at the car mechanic shop where my friend was getting his old run-down rust bucket Buick Skylark repaired. It really caught my eye and I had to ask the shop owner about it. I did not know very much about Trans-Ams, Cameros, Vettes, or Firebirds, but, this particular car happened to be a "Formula Firebird" (1981 to be specific). The mechanic saw me staring at it and practically drooling and let me know that he'd sell it to me for $150, which happened to be about how much money I had in the bank at the time. That I thought I could repair that car, would have been quite absurd - I had few tools beyond a pair of pliers and a set of socket wrenches, no garage of my own, and barely any experience working on cars. Yet, I bought it anyway fueled by foolish youthful dreams... Amazing that I did get that car working and back on the road (the engine had caught fire and the carburetor, even the cylinders were literally filled with hard black soot that was like lumps of coal (except firmly bonded to the metal surfaces).

Oh, back in 2008 I was there looking at the Scion xD. The let us take one home for the weekend. I felt kind of bad buying it from the other Toyota dealer that's on the southwest side of town, just outside of 270, simply because Tansky didn't have the color we wanted. I guess I feel better now, hearing how you were treated by them.

Christopher.

I'm sorry, it's not quite clear - what do you mean? I ended up essentially getting a $5,000 greater discount on the price of the TLX than I would have on the 2018 Accord 2.0T, and the TLX is a car that magazines consistently called "a good value, for what you get" (even before these kinds of discounts were being given).

Why do you think I'm lacking common sense?

Joecop67

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

awww, I love this thread!
everyone is getting along

SamDoe1

Wait.
1.) You arranged a test drive with someone who's name you had and when you arrived at the dealership you didn't immediately ask for him/her to come up front and help you?
2.) You are upset that they won't let you drive a car that's already sold?
3.) You KNOW another dealer will sell you the exact car you want at the price you want it at but didn't just hop in your car and drive over there to buy it?
4.) Instead you bought a luxury sedan hack job that is about as far from a CTR as it gets because of this "experience"?
5.) Yes you can walk into a MB showroom and they'll let you take any C class out for a spin. They are dime a dozen, I see probably 20 of them on the road every day. It's not hard to get a drive of a common car. The CTR is NOT common and it's not about the price.
6.) I do not believe someone in Manhattan was about to toss you the keys to a $150k car to let you drive it around the city. That's not the sort of thing people usually window shop for, they send their assistant out with a check to buy it.

Alright now you're flaunting your street cred in buying an Acura? el oh el.

There aren't any automakers, aside from Tesla, that have any control over their dealerships. This is why there are so many.

Even with a $5k discount, you still paid more for the TLX than you would have for the Accord. You still come out behind. Especially when you slap that Type S sticker on the back.

#math

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

YeuEmMaiMai

idling a modern fuel injected car in cold weather does it no favors.. get in start up, clean off if needed and after 30 or so seconds drive away... gently... car will warm up MUCH faster that way.

as for the accord, looks nice but high power FWD is a turnoff to me.....

TacoBello

It's not for the car's sake people do it. It's for their own sake, so they aren't sitting in -22F weather, waiting for heat... especially with cold leather seats. I have a heavy duty down filled parka rated for up to -22F... and it still feels cold as hell sitting in a cold leather car seat, until the seat heater gets going.

Joecop67

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I guess I must have a well insulated butt; seats that cold, even when I'm wearing a short jacket, don't seem to bother me as they warm up pretty quickly even without engaging the "heat seaters".

Shadow2056

I never said you had to have money. Lol. I've had plenty of customers that make 6 figures that couldn't finance a hot dog. Like I said, they have to show ability to buy the car. Credit app or looking at paying cash. Not just someone who wanted to test drive the car. Numbered cars don't do too well with people when they have a bunch of miles racked up on them because of "test drives". And who knows what type of driver is looking to drive it. As I said. Fan boys are weeded out. Not actual buyers.

And yes. The guy at the top might have gotten the money, but that dealership lost a customer and that sales person lost a sale. I'm part of the Hendrick group and we have 4-5 Honda dealerships within a 30min range. I get so many reports from customers who left the other Charlotte stores because they got treated like crap and they came to us and bought. That dealer lost a customer and that sales person lost a sale. That hurts THEIR store. Lol. But if you had a bad experience and neither the dealer or Honda was willing to do anything to help, take your business to another Honda/Acura dealer. With us here, everyone here gets a follow up call from the sales consultant and our customer service to be sure things went smoothly. If they didn't a manager, and in serious cases, the General Manager, will call to make things right. Like you stated, buying 5 cars from one dealership means the person was treated right.

Joecop67

TacoBello

they can't explain it to you, because no one has gone and torn apart 100s if not 1000s of engines to get a good analysis of strictly controlled variables. At best, what we have is anecdotal evidence from very limited cars under completely ambiguous and uncontrolled conditions- and they're not even the same cars, so you can't equate anything. We were just talking about a 1991 Benz- I have no idea what that has in common with a car manufactured in 2018.

You're not going to damage anything if the car heats up for 10 minutes. You're also not going to damage anything if you start driving right away- as long as you aren't revving the life out of the engine. I think it's general consensus that you should never rev your engine high until the oil is at it's operating temperature.

The "damage" that occurs is very minimal each time you do something, like rev a cold engine. You might have to do it a few hundred times before something starts going bad. And even then, I'd imagine the worst thing that will happen is your engine will start consuming oil. But I dunno. I'm no expert on the internal combustion engine.

TacoBello

That's all nice and well, but I was simply stating why people warm up their cars. If you like freezing for the first 10 minutes, that's your prerogative. If you don't find -22F weather cold, that's nice too. All I know is that by the end of the day, my car will likely last just as long as yours, even if it does idle for 10 minutes.

Also, you're treating the 3G TL like it's a brand new, 50k car. Let's keep in mind it is now at least a decade old, and worth near nothing unless you have a Type S 6MT. Also, as Justnspace so eloquently put it (and as he did himself)- if you blow your engine (which you won't), just drop another one in for $1500. These engines are a dime a dozen. They're super easy to source and you'd be replacing one factory engine for another- no modifications, no changes, just plug and play. and bolt. hahaha. Why someone is worried about their 7000 dollar car that has likely at least 120k miles at this point, lasting to 500k miles, is beyond me.

SamDoe1

Agree with everything people are saying. Also, auto makers test the crap out of every engine and if you don't think cold start and long idle is a part of that test process, you are delusional. If your remote start came from the factory, you're definitely fine. If it didn't, you are almost definitely fine.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Fine is a relative term. Simply put, idling is the hardest thing your engine does short of being over-reved. Idling when the engine is cold is even harder. The folks who cold start and then idle for fifteen minutes are delusional in the sense they think they're doing something good for their engines when the absolute opposite is true.

FWIW, I've worked as a consulting engineer to three different vehicle manufacturers and the tests for long duration idling following a cold start have all been quite definitive; excessive engine wear, fuel dilution in the oil, and excess sludge formation.

Joecop67

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Two main issues:

• Fuel: engines at idle run very rich (yes, even with modern fuel injection); oil dilution with excess fuel is the result. Now, if we're talking Diesel engines, that's a different story, the are throttled by fuel and not air, and as such can run as lean as 100:1 at idle.
• Mechanical: Oil flow (not to be confused with pressure) is at a minimum due to the low RPMs; engine bearings and cylinder walls are the main victims.

Joecop67

Saintor

All theoretical. I am not convinced that this translates in real operational issues. There are zillions of cops/taxis engines that idle an insane period of time and I never heard that they were particularly short-lived,

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

How much post cold start idling do taxi cabs do?

oonowindoo

So basically now you are saying you bought the TLX because of the experience, not the product itself?

oonowindoo

Because you made it sound like TLX is a better value buy or deal or even better car than Accord.... discount or not..... it is not like Accord 2.0T wont have any... just give it some time. TLX had 0 discount too when it was first introduced.
You bought TLX with your own $, you dont have to justify your purchase. But the fact that Accord is out selling TLX 10 TO 1 should tell you something. Even if they are similarly priced with your discount.
So by your logic, Most of the buyers would and should TLX over Accord since they are similarly priced with your $5k discount.... unfortunately. Not. Even a base $27K TLX with $5k discount is not going to get anywhere close to Accord's #s.

SamDoe1

No it's not.

An engine is designed to run. At idle, the engine is under the least amount of load and is simply running. Oil is pumping, coolant is circulating, fuel and air go in, they go bang, and it poops out some exhaust. That's about it. Once an engine reaches temperature, it's less damaging to idle the motor than it is to hoon the crap out of it. What you mean to say is that cold STARTS are the hardest thing you can do to an engine which is absolutely true but idling it should induce no difference in wear than revving the piss out of it if the oil system is working the way it should.

Sludge build up is also not really a thing anymore given that oil and filters are changed at the recommended interval (those numbers come from real science FYI). Filters will extract the "sludge" as the motor runs. Unless your OCI's are 50k miles, you'll be fine.

Fuel dilution in oil is going to happen regardless of if you idle or not. The cold start is the kicker, not idling.

Now if you are repeatedly cold starting, running for 2 minutes, and then shutting off to do it again...then yes I agree this is bad. But remote starting for 5-10mins before you hop in and drive is certainly not going to harm anything.

Legend2TL

cold engine idling and wear.

IMO bottom line, forgetting the comfort factor of warming up the interior, there's no need to idle and warm up in cold weather with modern ICE's and modern motor oils.
Just start it and drive it gently (keep the rev's below ~1/2 the redline) until the engine temp comes up to normal. Personally I don't do it, just start and drive off gently even with my 1985 carbureted motorcycle which I occasionally ride in winter. My wife's 2017 CRV has a remote start and we've yet to use it.

As for the negative effects, obvious ones, waste of fuel, excess emissions (besides not moving idling the motor takes longer to light off the cat), heck even legal ones below (I never knew it was illegal in many states to let a vehicle idle for long periods of time).
The engine wear debate? Many still claim the oil/gas cylinder wash down is a problem as a Popular Mechanics article quotes a mechanical engineer who specializes in engines.
Also there's alot of moisture in the crankcase in colder environments which is a problem until oil temp comes up (the faster the better so the water doesn't get absorbed into oil which is bad for sludge)
On the counter side, modern oils are extremely good from a wear and performance point of view.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ually-illegal/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-harms-engine/

oonowindoo

it is also not going to help the engine. So basically it is just wasting time and fuel.
But yah defrosting is needed tho.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Okay, apparently you're the expert. You're wrong, but apparently you don't care.

SamDoe1

See above.

TacoBello

Please provide an ounce of peer reviewed science, backing up your statements. By your count, engines should be dying frequently, when idling at a red light and cold. I've noticed a trend with you and your posts- you strike me as the ultra conservative (in terms of care preservation/maintenance), do all maintenance before required, make sure everything is absolutely flawless at all times, kind of guy. There's nothing wrong with that in itself. I have plenty of friends like that also, when it comes to their cars. The problem is when you start spreading stuff as gospel that has literally NEVER been an issue for any 3G TL.

oonowindoo

There is no real damages done to the car unlike you are idling the car for a whole year.

The only negative things about unnecessary idling is Pollution, wasting gas and time and maybe some unnecessary wear and tear that you wont see in a long time.