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Wheels comparo: TSX, A4 1.8T, MB C230K

 
Old 10-23-2003, 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Iceman
The German car makers can overprice their cars because they don't have enough competition. I love my TSX, and I think it OWNS the A4, but I don't think the TL owns the A6. Interior, yes. Mechanicals, yes. Exterior styling, no.
how does the mechanicals own the A6?????
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Old 10-24-2003, 07:18 AM
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I get plenty of driving enjoyment out of my S2000 that I doubt any German car can do for me. Maybe an M3, but I want a roadster and the M roadster doesn't do it for me. I've driven a boxter and while I won't argue it's a good car it didn't put the smile on my face like the S2000 did (sure we can go even higher in price but that's apples and oranges and to be honest you are not seeing huge improvements in performance at that level). I also have to say that one of my complaints of the model that I have of the S2000 (year 2000) was the interior but they sorted that out with newer S2000 (2003+) or S2200 (i don't know why the name didn't change).

so there are Japanese (granted the S2000 is not Acura)
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
rb1 is my nemesis..i can never let his posts go unchallenged haha. Actually I agree with a lot rb1 says... don't take my comments(especially the ones about the 1.8t) as anything other than good natured ribbing.
Likewise.

Besides, what other board can I hang out on and routinely be flipped off by the Administrator without being banned...
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Old 10-24-2003, 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
how does the mechanicals own the A6?????
A6 ;; TL
Engine: 3.0L V-6 ;; 3.2L V-6
HP: 220 ;; 270
TQ: 221 ;; 238
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
how does the mechanicals own the A6?????
Well, as has been stated many times already, you can get a TL with a 6 speed, big V6, lowered, 18" wheels, performance tires, LSD, etc. etc. Audi wants to rob you blind for the performance version of their cars.
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
i agree..but only if they dont turn the wheel during testing or compare quality of materials....German cars will always lose in the price/feature ratio...while the Germans (audi execpt) come out on top in the driving categories...depends on preference..if you want transportation get Japanese/Acura, if you want more and driving enjoyment is important to you..you have no choice but the overpriced germans..b/c Acura doesnt make anything in that category..the G35 and IS are close though.
I have no doubt that the TL will win many track tests against the German cars priced within $5k of it.
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Old 10-25-2003, 03:56 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
i think to the average car buyer these are competitiors but the MB percieved to be higher up the luxury ladder due to its badge, RWD and supercharged engine...but i think when equipped similarily the benz is more expensive..not sure how much? but if these two cars were same price i would prefer the benz's drive more..but i never liked buying the bottom offering of luxury car makers.
I didn't know RWD and SC can equal luxury. Me and my many friends certainly didn't buy a Benz due to RWD.
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Old 10-25-2003, 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
um...usable power is requirement of luxury... quality and driving dynamics help also.

From that statement I know you haven't experience a C230K sport sedan long enough.
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Old 10-25-2003, 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Remind us, please: what kind of car do you drive?

Yes, I realize that the C230K is the bottom of the MB line (if we're ignoring that coupe thing they make).
In Canada I wouldn't consider C230K bottom of MB line. The real base model should be C240 which come with lower output engine, 16 inch wheels etc.
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
In Canada I wouldn't consider C230K bottom of MB line. The real base model should be C240 which come with lower output engine, 16 inch wheels etc.
Both share the same body and overall appearance and I bet most motorists couldn't tell the difference. So the C230K is a spruced up version of the bottom of the line then...
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
Both share the same body and overall appearance and I bet most motorists couldn't tell the difference. So the C230K is a spruced up version of the bottom of the line then...
They are different visually C230 have more aggressive bumper, 17" wheels and blue tinted windows. New item for 2004.5 C230 Sport is C32 AMG brakes but without the AMG logo on caliper.

C230




C240

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Old 10-25-2003, 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by DEVO
The only reason that the TSX is still on my radar scope is that price wise it can't be beat.
How about reliability and cost of maintenance? Not to mention, fwd loses narrowly, head to head on dry pavement, but rwd is no match for fwd when the weather hits.
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
They are different visually C230 have more aggressive bumper, 17" wheels and blue tinted windows. New item for 2004.5 C230 Sport is C32 AMG brakes but without the AMG logo on caliper.

C230




C240

LOL...Chrysler products look nice but....did anyone hear about the E55 recall, I mean buy back? Something to do with a jacked up computer. No thanks, I'll stick to Honda products.
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Old 10-25-2003, 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by duugk
LOL...Chrysler products look nice but....did anyone hear about the E55 recall, I mean buy back? Something to do with a jacked up computer. No thanks, I'll stick to Honda products.
Chrysler products? That tells us how much you really know about cars. E55 is lighter than SL55 and it uses the same engine. So the marketing people didn't want E55 beating it's older brother for the title of fastest Benz. Therefore they recalled some early model SL55 with 469 hp and equipped it with update ECU that bump up hp to 493.
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Old 10-26-2003, 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
From that statement I know you haven't experience a C230K sport sedan long enough.
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
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Old 10-26-2003, 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by Iceman
I have no doubt that the TL will win many track tests against the German cars priced within $5k of it.
while i havent test driven one... i can only by what the car mags have gone...all of them have said it is not near a G35 let alone 3 series in any handling, feedback, or brakes... it understeers and wallows over bumps..it is a luxury yacht..not sport sedan despite what they want people to believe..a 3500lb+ FWD car is no sportsedan....it'll be better than a 1.8T FWD A4 though.
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Old 10-26-2003, 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
Somehow C230 Coupe seems to handle better than C230K Sport Sedan. My guess is the non evolution package work better with the chassis. The C230K Sport Sedan I have is an oxymoron. The seats provide excellent back support but no lateral support. The chassis is rock solid even stronger than my Japanese sports cars. The suspension is firm and very teutonic like. Spring setting is too harsh for vertical movement but lateral movement is too soft. So go into any sharp corner you'll be greeted with massive bodyroll. Basically it's an half hearted sports sedan and nowhere near BMW level that magazine brag about. By the way you won't be able to tell what wheel drive C-Class is unless you are really pushing it. Which most people won't do in city driving anyways. Could it be your butt dyno is playing with your head? Since it's RWD so you automatically assume it's has to be better than FWD in any situation.
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
Chrysler products? That tells us how much you really know about cars. E55 is lighter than SL55 and it uses the same engine. So the marketing people didn't want E55 beating it's older brother for the title of fastest Benz. Therefore they recalled some early model SL55 with 469 hp and equipped it with update ECU that bump up hp to 493.
Chrysler is a cancer growing on MB. Hopefully they can survive it.
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Old 10-26-2003, 05:05 PM
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Gilboman on the TL:
while i havent test driven one... i can only by what the car mags have gone...all of them have said it is not near a G35 let alone 3 series in any handling, feedback, or brakes... it understeers and wallows over bumps..it is a luxury yacht..not sport sedan despite what they want people to believe..a 3500lb+ FWD car is no sportsedan....it'll be better than a 1.8T FWD A4 though.
What car mags are you quoting?? As far as I know there have not been any comparison tests with G35 or 3 series (BTW- a more fair comparison would be G35, 5 series , versus TL in terms of passenger space the car has to haul around. You could also throw in the A6 and the Lexus GS for good measure.
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Old 10-26-2003, 06:58 PM
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I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Johns
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
the addition of a bigger rear sway in the tsx makes a huge difference. I advise buying one from comptech, you won't be dissapointed.

Also, do you ahve aftermarket tires on the mercedes? what comes stock. Replacing the crappy all seasons on the tsx also makes a huge improvement
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:01 PM
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Quality: Chrysler >> MB
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by zircon
Quality: Chrysler >> MB
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Old 10-27-2003, 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by legendguy
Gilboman on the TL:


What car mags are you quoting?? As far as I know there have not been any comparison tests with G35 or 3 series (BTW- a more fair comparison would be G35, 5 series , versus TL in terms of passenger space the car has to haul around. You could also throw in the A6 and the Lexus GS for good measure.
edmunds and Car and driver.

"Although we found it to be an easy car to drive aggressively, we're not ready to call it an equal of the 3 or 5 Series, A4 or G35 in terms of handling. The Acura's front-drive layout is limiting from an enthusiast's point of view, but even less serious drivers are apt to notice that the TL floats and bobs over the occasional bump"

basically they all say its not bad for a 3500 lb+ nose heavy car..but it's not close to being a G35, 3-series or even A4 in handling and dynamics.
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Old 10-27-2003, 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
Somehow C230 Coupe seems to handle better than C230K Sport Sedan. My guess is the non evolution package work better with the chassis. The C230K Sport Sedan I have is an oxymoron. The seats provide excellent back support but no lateral support. The chassis is rock solid even stronger than my Japanese sports cars. The suspension is firm and very teutonic like. Spring setting is too harsh for vertical movement but lateral movement is too soft. So go into any sharp corner you'll be greeted with massive bodyroll. Basically it's an half hearted sports sedan and nowhere near BMW level that magazine brag about. By the way you won't be able to tell what wheel drive C-Class is unless you are really pushing it. Which most people won't do in city driving anyways. Could it be your butt dyno is playing with your head? Since it's RWD so you automatically assume it's has to be better than FWD in any situation.
i cant speak for the sedan..but the coupe was definitely not bad on cornering..especially highway on ramps.. i wouldnt be nearly as comfortable in a FWD cars that plows its nose... maybe i'm just an "aggressive" driver....
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Old 10-27-2003, 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by duugk
How about reliability and cost of maintenance? Not to mention, fwd loses narrowly, head to head on dry pavement, but rwd is no match for fwd when the weather hits.
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
So.....which one has the higher skidpad numbers? How about slalom?
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Old 10-27-2003, 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by DEVO
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.

Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
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Old 10-27-2003, 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by duugk
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.

Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
But, you get free scheduled maintenance for the first 3 years of BMW, MB, Audi and Saab ownership. You don't get that at Acura.
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Old 10-27-2003, 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by duugk
Chrysler is a cancer growing on MB. Hopefully they can survive it.
It's a money drain but doesn't mean Benz is using Chrysler product. In fact they are selling Chrysler with Benz products (Pacifica/Crossfire).
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Old 10-27-2003, 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Johns
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
My benz mechanic friends also said great things for the AMG sway bar too. However he said AMG sway bar do not fit the stock bushings so some modification needs to be made. Another thing is the stock bi-xenon headlight auto level sensor is bolted on the sway bar.
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Old 10-27-2003, 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
i cant speak for the sedan..but the coupe was definitely not bad on cornering..especially highway on ramps.. i wouldnt be nearly as comfortable in a FWD cars that plows its nose... maybe i'm just an "aggressive" driver....
Well this thread is comparing Sedans I believe. The small diameter steering wheel available on C Coupe makes a huge handling difference. The sedan drives like a much bigger car than it's size would indicate. The steering on both sedan and coupe still feels over assisted although not as bad as Japanese cars. Well if you drive fast enough to feel that 9/10 difference between fwd and rwd you aren't safe on public roads. No Benz is ever meant to be a sport car anyways that's BMW's job.

P.S. Sport steering wheel is now standard on 2004.5 C Sport Sedan so it cures one weakness.
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Old 10-27-2003, 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by DEVO
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
If you want a fun RWD vehicle Benz is not the way to go. I would definitely get a BMW as it's the better driver car of the two.
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Old 10-27-2003, 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by domn
But, you get free scheduled maintenance for the first 3 years of BMW, MB, Audi and Saab ownership. You don't get that at Acura.
In Canada we don't get free schedule service from Benz and Audi is 4 years free service.
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Old 10-28-2003, 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
the addition of a bigger rear sway in the tsx makes a huge difference. I advise buying one from comptech, you won't be dissapointed.

Also, do you ahve aftermarket tires on the mercedes? what comes stock. Replacing the crappy all seasons on the tsx also makes a huge improvement
I would believe that larger rear sways would make a big difference in handling. The TSX is my wife's car, and she is satisfied with the handling as is, so no sway bars for her. My C230 comes with Continental Sport Contact 2 summer tires sized 225/45/17. I use Dunlop M2 winter tires sized 205/55/16. I live in Connecticut, and last winter had it's share of large snow storms. I also live on a fairly steep hill. Never got stuck or even close to it. You can't drive like a manic, but, with snowtires a rear wheel drive car can do very well.
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Old 10-28-2003, 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
My benz mechanic friends also said great things for the AMG sway bar too. However he said AMG sway bar do not fit the stock bushings so some modification needs to be made. Another thing is the stock bi-xenon headlight auto level sensor is bolted on the sway bar.
Yes, its very confusing. 2002 AMG sways fit 2002 and 2003 C230s without modification. 2003 AMG sways changed the endlinks and require modification. Mine are the 2002 sways and fit with no modification. The C230 coupe handled well with the stock sways, but had too much body lean for me. The AMG sways cleans up the handling without degrading the ride. The TSX in stock form has less body lean in corners than the C230 (IMO).
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Old 10-28-2003, 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
In Canada we don't get free schedule service from Benz and Audi is 4 years free service.
i thought Benz had free service too...b/c my friend brought her SLK in for "free" brake pads and rotors during the summer before the warranty or that mainatance thing ran out...
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Old 10-28-2003, 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
Well this thread is comparing Sedans I believe. The small diameter steering wheel available on C Coupe makes a huge handling difference. The sedan drives like a much bigger car than it's size would indicate. The steering on both sedan and coupe still feels over assisted although not as bad as Japanese cars. Well if you drive fast enough to feel that 9/10 difference between fwd and rwd you aren't safe on public roads. No Benz is ever meant to be a sport car anyways that's BMW's job.

P.S. Sport steering wheel is now standard on 2004.5 C Sport Sedan so it cures one weakness.
i didnt know the steering was different...but you dont need to drive 9/10 to feel the difference, every time you turn the wheel and are stepping on the gas you feel it..from 3/10 all the way to 9/10 or even 10/10 i dont see how anyone who likes to drive can't feel the difference...heck, even my mom does between FWD and RWD...but she describes it as just turn better and faster
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Old 10-28-2003, 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by duugk
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.

Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
But they do cancel out if you do your own oil change which I do... have a friend with a nice garage with lift.

plus what domn said...
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Old 10-28-2003, 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by WhoAmI
If you want a fun RWD vehicle Benz is not the way to go. I would definitely get a BMW as it's the better driver car of the two.
That's in the running as well.
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