Wheels comparo: TSX, A4 1.8T, MB C230K
10-23-2003, 11:43 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Iceman
The German car makers can overprice their cars because they don't have enough competition. I love my TSX, and I think it OWNS the A4, but I don't think the TL owns the A6. Interior, yes. Mechanicals, yes. Exterior styling, no.
The German car makers can overprice their cars because they don't have enough competition. I love my TSX, and I think it OWNS the A4, but I don't think the TL owns the A6. Interior, yes. Mechanicals, yes. Exterior styling, no.
10-24-2003, 07:18 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get plenty of driving enjoyment out of my S2000 that I doubt any German car can do for me. Maybe an M3, but I want a roadster and the M roadster doesn't do it for me. I've driven a boxter and while I won't argue it's a good car it didn't put the smile on my face like the S2000 did (sure we can go even higher in price but that's apples and oranges and to be honest you are not seeing huge improvements in performance at that level). I also have to say that one of my complaints of the model that I have of the S2000 (year 2000) was the interior but they sorted that out with newer S2000 (2003+) or S2200 (i don't know why the name didn't change).
so there are Japanese (granted the S2000 is not Acura)
so there are Japanese (granted the S2000 is not Acura)
10-24-2003, 10:03 AM
#43
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by TinkySD
rb1 is my nemesis..i can never let his posts go unchallenged
haha. Actually I agree with a lot rb1 says... don't take my comments(especially the ones about the 1.8t) as anything other than good natured ribbing. 
rb1 is my nemesis..i can never let his posts go unchallenged
haha. Actually I agree with a lot rb1 says... don't take my comments(especially the ones about the 1.8t) as anything other than good natured ribbing.
Besides, what other board can I hang out on and routinely be flipped off by the Administrator without being banned...
10-24-2003, 09:54 PM
#45
Banned
Originally posted by gilboman
how does the mechanicals own the A6?????
how does the mechanicals own the A6?????
10-24-2003, 09:56 PM
#46
Banned
Originally posted by gilboman
i agree..but only if they dont turn the wheel during testing or compare quality of materials....German cars will always lose in the price/feature ratio...while the Germans (audi execpt) come out on top in the driving categories...depends on preference..if you want transportation get Japanese/Acura, if you want more and driving enjoyment is important to you..you have no choice but the overpriced germans..b/c Acura doesnt make anything in that category..the G35 and IS are close though.
i agree..but only if they dont turn the wheel during testing or compare quality of materials....German cars will always lose in the price/feature ratio...while the Germans (audi execpt) come out on top in the driving categories...depends on preference..if you want transportation get Japanese/Acura, if you want more and driving enjoyment is important to you..you have no choice but the overpriced germans..b/c Acura doesnt make anything in that category..the G35 and IS are close though.
10-25-2003, 03:56 AM
#47
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by gilboman
i think to the average car buyer these are competitiors but the MB percieved to be higher up the luxury ladder due to its badge, RWD and supercharged engine...but i think when equipped similarily the benz is more expensive..not sure how much? but if these two cars were same price i would prefer the benz's drive more..but i never liked buying the bottom offering of luxury car makers.
i think to the average car buyer these are competitiors but the MB percieved to be higher up the luxury ladder due to its badge, RWD and supercharged engine...but i think when equipped similarily the benz is more expensive..not sure how much? but if these two cars were same price i would prefer the benz's drive more..but i never liked buying the bottom offering of luxury car makers.
10-25-2003, 04:38 AM
#48
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by gilboman
um...usable power is requirement of luxury... quality and driving dynamics help also.
um...usable power is requirement of luxury... quality and driving dynamics help also.
10-25-2003, 04:44 AM
#49
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Remind us, please: what kind of car do you drive?
Yes, I realize that the C230K is the bottom of the MB line (if we're ignoring that coupe thing they make).
Remind us, please: what kind of car do you drive?
Yes, I realize that the C230K is the bottom of the MB line (if we're ignoring that coupe thing they make).
10-25-2003, 08:45 AM
#50
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
In Canada I wouldn't consider C230K bottom of MB line. The real base model should be C240 which come with lower output engine, 16 inch wheels etc.
In Canada I wouldn't consider C230K bottom of MB line. The real base model should be C240 which come with lower output engine, 16 inch wheels etc.
10-25-2003, 08:30 PM
#51
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
Both share the same body and overall appearance and I bet most motorists couldn't tell the difference. So the C230K is a spruced up version of the bottom of the line then...
Both share the same body and overall appearance and I bet most motorists couldn't tell the difference. So the C230K is a spruced up version of the bottom of the line then...
C230
C240
10-25-2003, 08:45 PM
#52
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by DEVO
The only reason that the TSX is still on my radar scope is that price wise it can't be beat.
The only reason that the TSX is still on my radar scope is that price wise it can't be beat.
10-25-2003, 08:49 PM
#53
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
They are different visually C230 have more aggressive bumper, 17" wheels and blue tinted windows. New item for 2004.5 C230 Sport is C32 AMG brakes but without the AMG logo on caliper.
C230
C240
They are different visually C230 have more aggressive bumper, 17" wheels and blue tinted windows. New item for 2004.5 C230 Sport is C32 AMG brakes but without the AMG logo on caliper.
C230
C240
10-25-2003, 11:54 PM
#54
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by duugk
LOL...Chrysler products look nice but....did anyone hear about the E55 recall, I mean buy back? Something to do with a jacked up computer. No thanks, I'll stick to Honda products.
LOL...Chrysler products look nice but....did anyone hear about the E55 recall, I mean buy back? Something to do with a jacked up computer. No thanks, I'll stick to Honda products.
10-26-2003, 01:36 AM
#55
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
From that statement I know you haven't experience a C230K sport sedan long enough.
From that statement I know you haven't experience a C230K sport sedan long enough.
10-26-2003, 01:38 AM
#56
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Iceman
I have no doubt that the TL will win many track tests against the German cars priced within $5k of it.
I have no doubt that the TL will win many track tests against the German cars priced within $5k of it.
10-26-2003, 03:15 AM
#57
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by gilboman
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
10-26-2003, 09:51 AM
#58
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
Chrysler products? That tells us how much you really know about cars. E55 is lighter than SL55 and it uses the same engine. So the marketing people didn't want E55 beating it's older brother for the title of fastest Benz. Therefore they recalled some early model SL55 with 469 hp and equipped it with update ECU that bump up hp to 493.
Chrysler products? That tells us how much you really know about cars. E55 is lighter than SL55 and it uses the same engine. So the marketing people didn't want E55 beating it's older brother for the title of fastest Benz. Therefore they recalled some early model SL55 with 469 hp and equipped it with update ECU that bump up hp to 493.
10-26-2003, 05:05 PM
#59
Gilboman on the TL:
What car mags are you quoting?? As far as I know there have not been any comparison tests with G35 or 3 series (BTW- a more fair comparison would be G35, 5 series , versus TL in terms of passenger space the car has to haul around. You could also throw in the A6 and the Lexus GS for good measure.
while i havent test driven one... i can only by what the car mags have gone...all of them have said it is not near a G35 let alone 3 series in any handling, feedback, or brakes... it understeers and wallows over bumps..it is a luxury yacht..not sport sedan despite what they want people to believe..a 3500lb+ FWD car is no sportsedan....it'll be better than a 1.8T FWD A4 though.
10-26-2003, 06:58 PM
#60
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
10-26-2003, 08:00 PM
#61
Audi Driving Snob
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Johns
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
Also, do you ahve aftermarket tires on the mercedes? what comes stock. Replacing the crappy all seasons on the tsx also makes a huge improvement
10-26-2003, 09:57 PM
#63
Originally posted by zircon
Quality: Chrysler >> MB
Quality: Chrysler >> MB
10-27-2003, 02:37 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by legendguy
Gilboman on the TL:
What car mags are you quoting?? As far as I know there have not been any comparison tests with G35 or 3 series (BTW- a more fair comparison would be G35, 5 series , versus TL in terms of passenger space the car has to haul around. You could also throw in the A6 and the Lexus GS for good measure.
Gilboman on the TL:
What car mags are you quoting?? As far as I know there have not been any comparison tests with G35 or 3 series (BTW- a more fair comparison would be G35, 5 series , versus TL in terms of passenger space the car has to haul around. You could also throw in the A6 and the Lexus GS for good measure.
"Although we found it to be an easy car to drive aggressively, we're not ready to call it an equal of the 3 or 5 Series, A4 or G35 in terms of handling. The Acura's front-drive layout is limiting from an enthusiast's point of view, but even less serious drivers are apt to notice that the TL floats and bobs over the occasional bump"
basically they all say its not bad for a 3500 lb+ nose heavy car..but it's not close to being a G35, 3-series or even A4 in handling and dynamics.
10-27-2003, 02:39 AM
#65
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
Somehow C230 Coupe seems to handle better than C230K Sport Sedan. My guess is the non evolution package work better with the chassis. The C230K Sport Sedan I have is an oxymoron. The seats provide excellent back support but no lateral support. The chassis is rock solid even stronger than my Japanese sports cars. The suspension is firm and very teutonic like. Spring setting is too harsh for vertical movement but lateral movement is too soft. So go into any sharp corner you'll be greeted with massive bodyroll. Basically it's an half hearted sports sedan and nowhere near BMW level that magazine brag about. By the way you won't be able to tell what wheel drive C-Class is unless you are really pushing it. Which most people won't do in city driving anyways. Could it be your butt dyno is playing with your head? Since it's RWD so you automatically assume it's has to be better than FWD in any situation.
Somehow C230 Coupe seems to handle better than C230K Sport Sedan. My guess is the non evolution package work better with the chassis. The C230K Sport Sedan I have is an oxymoron. The seats provide excellent back support but no lateral support. The chassis is rock solid even stronger than my Japanese sports cars. The suspension is firm and very teutonic like. Spring setting is too harsh for vertical movement but lateral movement is too soft. So go into any sharp corner you'll be greeted with massive bodyroll. Basically it's an half hearted sports sedan and nowhere near BMW level that magazine brag about. By the way you won't be able to tell what wheel drive C-Class is unless you are really pushing it. Which most people won't do in city driving anyways. Could it be your butt dyno is playing with your head? Since it's RWD so you automatically assume it's has to be better than FWD in any situation.
10-27-2003, 07:30 AM
#66
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by duugk
How about reliability and cost of maintenance? Not to mention, fwd loses narrowly, head to head on dry pavement, but rwd is no match for fwd when the weather hits.
How about reliability and cost of maintenance? Not to mention, fwd loses narrowly, head to head on dry pavement, but rwd is no match for fwd when the weather hits.
10-27-2003, 11:19 AM
#67
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 43
Posts: 5,449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by gilboman
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
a c230 coupe outhandles the TSX IMO when driving them both... corner on a onramp..t.he RWD is gives a lot more confidence than the plowing nature of most FWD cars including the TSX
10-27-2003, 01:58 PM
#68
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by DEVO
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
10-27-2003, 02:04 PM
#69
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by duugk
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.
Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.
Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
10-27-2003, 08:16 PM
#70
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by duugk
Chrysler is a cancer growing on MB. Hopefully they can survive it.
Chrysler is a cancer growing on MB. Hopefully they can survive it.
10-27-2003, 08:19 PM
#71
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Johns
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
I own both a TSX and a C230K coupe (with AMG sway bars installed). I drive them both every week and find the C230 to handle better and feel more solid than the TSX. That being said, the TSX is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars I have driven ( and the 6 speed shifter is one of the best).
10-27-2003, 08:32 PM
#72
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by gilboman
i cant speak for the sedan..but the coupe was definitely not bad on cornering..especially highway on ramps.. i wouldnt be nearly as comfortable in a FWD cars that plows its nose... maybe i'm just an "aggressive" driver....
i cant speak for the sedan..but the coupe was definitely not bad on cornering..especially highway on ramps.. i wouldnt be nearly as comfortable in a FWD cars that plows its nose... maybe i'm just an "aggressive" driver....
P.S. Sport steering wheel is now standard on 2004.5 C Sport Sedan so it cures one weakness.
10-27-2003, 08:38 PM
#73
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by DEVO
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
well those are factors but i don't see them as that much different then in an MB so they cancel out. i don't want another FWD car so even as nice as the TSX and TL are, which I do think they are, I want RWD. They have all the features that I want and then some, so my search is for something that has similar features and RWD or AWD... but then comes the price, which puts the TSX & TL back in the running.
10-27-2003, 08:41 PM
#74
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by domn
But, you get free scheduled maintenance for the first 3 years of BMW, MB, Audi and Saab ownership. You don't get that at Acura.
But, you get free scheduled maintenance for the first 3 years of BMW, MB, Audi and Saab ownership. You don't get that at Acura.
10-28-2003, 10:13 AM
#75
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by TinkySD
the addition of a bigger rear sway in the tsx makes a huge difference. I advise buying one from comptech, you won't be dissapointed.
Also, do you ahve aftermarket tires on the mercedes? what comes stock. Replacing the crappy all seasons on the tsx also makes a huge improvement
the addition of a bigger rear sway in the tsx makes a huge difference. I advise buying one from comptech, you won't be dissapointed.
Also, do you ahve aftermarket tires on the mercedes? what comes stock. Replacing the crappy all seasons on the tsx also makes a huge improvement
10-28-2003, 10:19 AM
#76
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
My benz mechanic friends also said great things for the AMG sway bar too. However he said AMG sway bar do not fit the stock bushings so some modification needs to be made. Another thing is the stock bi-xenon headlight auto level sensor is bolted on the sway bar.
My benz mechanic friends also said great things for the AMG sway bar too. However he said AMG sway bar do not fit the stock bushings so some modification needs to be made. Another thing is the stock bi-xenon headlight auto level sensor is bolted on the sway bar.
The C230 coupe handled well with the stock sways, but had too much body lean for me. The AMG sways cleans up the handling without degrading the ride. The TSX in stock form has less body lean in corners than the C230 (IMO).
10-28-2003, 11:25 AM
#77
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
In Canada we don't get free schedule service from Benz and Audi is 4 years free service.
In Canada we don't get free schedule service from Benz and Audi is 4 years free service.
10-28-2003, 11:26 AM
#78
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
Well this thread is comparing Sedans I believe. The small diameter steering wheel available on C Coupe makes a huge handling difference. The sedan drives like a much bigger car than it's size would indicate. The steering on both sedan and coupe still feels over assisted although not as bad as Japanese cars. Well if you drive fast enough to feel that 9/10 difference between fwd and rwd you aren't safe on public roads. No Benz is ever meant to be a sport car anyways that's BMW's job.
P.S. Sport steering wheel is now standard on 2004.5 C Sport Sedan so it cures one weakness.
Well this thread is comparing Sedans I believe. The small diameter steering wheel available on C Coupe makes a huge handling difference. The sedan drives like a much bigger car than it's size would indicate. The steering on both sedan and coupe still feels over assisted although not as bad as Japanese cars. Well if you drive fast enough to feel that 9/10 difference between fwd and rwd you aren't safe on public roads. No Benz is ever meant to be a sport car anyways that's BMW's job.
P.S. Sport steering wheel is now standard on 2004.5 C Sport Sedan so it cures one weakness.
i dont see how anyone who likes to drive can't feel the difference...heck, even my mom does between FWD and RWD...but she describes it as just turn better and faster
10-28-2003, 02:37 PM
#79
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by duugk
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.
Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
Well, I have to disagree. Call up your local MB or BMW dealer and ask how much a standard oil change or 15-20k mi scheduled service will cost and then compare them to the Acura dealer prices. I think you'll find the numbers are significantly different. Or another example, compare the cost of replacing a starter.
Yeah, there is no handling substitute for RWD on dry pavement, if only it would stay dry...
plus what domn said...
10-28-2003, 02:40 PM
#80
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by WhoAmI
If you want a fun RWD vehicle Benz is not the way to go. I would definitely get a BMW as it's the better driver car of the two.
If you want a fun RWD vehicle Benz is not the way to go. I would definitely get a BMW as it's the better driver car of the two.