crisco

Just got my Wheels magazine (a Canadian auto mag). In it they preview the all new TL (haven't read it yet), and compare the TSX (6mt) to the A4 1.8T (manual) and the MB C230kompressor. A pretty good article, very objective. They chose these three, since they are competitors that each offer something different - RWD/AWD/FWD; 4cyl engines - Supercharger/Turbo/NA. Two of the 3 reviewers picked the MB - due to its immediate power delivery and RWD dynamics. The other guy picked the TSX because of its all round practicality and jack of all trades performance. None liked the A4 in comparison to the other vehicles - felt it's weight overmatched the engine.

I'll scan it in if someone will host....

dom

Scan it I'm sure someone will host !!!

Two of the 3 reviewers picked the MB - due to its immediate power delivery and RWD dynamics.

Hmm, 2 of the three eh. Gilbo does'nt work for Wheels Mag does he?

TinkySD

I can respect there decision as long as it wasn't based on the "palpable feeling of luxury" HIt me up with a PM when you get them scanned I'll host.

ClutchPerformer

I think it's funny how every other 4-cyl the TSX is compared to has a supercharger or turbocharger strapped to it.

dom

I understand that the TSX and C230 can be considered competitors as their size and price is very similar.

But, who actually cross shops these two cars? I think I can name 2 people since I've been on these boards since last December that have mentioned they were cross shopping the TSX with a MB C230. One of them was FinalHeaven and I can't remember the other guys name.

Why mags feel the need to compare these 2

TorontoTL

I actually considered all three of those cars since they are similarily priced so I don't think that a comparison of them is that odd. I would have chosen the TSX though if I was an editor.

dom

Ok, so we have 3

majormojo

I think the idea with comparing them is to show the different "flavours" offered for vehicles with ostensiblly similar configurations (4 cyl, 4-door, entry-lux sedans). I think it's a valid journalistic endeavor to make comparisons that aren't obvious on the surface.

That said, I'm not much of a fan of Wheels magazine even though I get it for free. They just started sending it to me... Perhaps they bought C&D's mailing list? In general, I find the writing / editing in the magazine to be substandard and they almost never come to any "hard" conclusions. After a while, you get the feeling that they like everything they drive, which is nice for them, useless for the reader.

crisco

The article is at home. I'll bring it in to work and scan it tommorrow.
I'll then send it to you TinkySD

Johns

I own a MBC230 and just bought a TSX for my wife. Price is very close ( with discounts on the C230). We love both cars, but both my wife and I like the C230 a little better than the TSX.

gilboman

i think to the average car buyer these are competitiors but the MB percieved to be higher up the luxury ladder due to its badge, RWD and supercharged engine...but i think when equipped similarily the benz is more expensive..not sure how much? but if these two cars were same price i would prefer the benz's drive more..but i never liked buying the bottom offering of luxury car makers.

ClutchPerformer

I don't even have a joke here....

...and since when does supercharger = luxury?

gilboman

um...usable power is requirement of luxury... quality and driving dynamics help also.

what are you talking about? i said i dont like buying the bottom offering of luxury car makers...the c230 is the bottom offering?? Acura is differnt because they only sell near entry level luxury cars so i wont have a problem buying from them because there is nothing better available from them to buy anyways.

ClutchPerformer

Remind us, please: what kind of car do you drive?

Yes, I realize that the C230K is the bottom of the MB line (if we're ignoring that coupe thing they make).

dom

Clutch, Gilbo drives a 3 series which may be considered by some to be at the bottom end of the BMW ladder, but I think only very few people feel that way because its such a great driving car.

The MB 230 IMO can be considered a bottom offering because its so much inferior to the 3 series and to everything else offered by Mercedes. The 3 series can be considered just as good as the 5 or 7 but in a smaller package. But thats just my opinion and I think thats the point Gilbo was trying to make.

ClutchPerformer

I know You'll have to excuse my low tolerance for hipocrisy...

Being a great driver's car doesn't excuse it from being the "bottom of the ladder". As a matter of fact, my point was (or was going to be) that there's nothing wrong with being at the bottom of a luxury line. You're still gonna have a pretty damned good car. 3-series is a great car. TSX/RSX are great. A4 is great. 9-3...great. I even think the C230K is great. Everyone can't afford a 7-series/S-Class/A8 (including most of us--certainly me), so let's not bash the whole "entry-luxury segment".

dom

I know you knew Gilbo has a 3 series I caught your hipocrisy, I guess I just did'nt type things properly.

I see your point but here's my viewpoint. I would not buy a C230 because I consider it a bottom rung Merc and the value is horrible. I'd rather have an Acura because its loaded for less. But at the same time I would definently buy a 330 or 325 (AWD only). But then again, I would'nt dare buy a BMW 320i (canada only) because I consider THAT a bottom rung BMW. MSRP is $34,900 for that 320i BTW, compared to $34,800 for the TSX.

gilboman

330xi...320i is the bottom model...or would you consider a M3 a bottom model too because it is a 3-series?.... it would be hypocritical if i drove a 320i... C230 is at the bottom..i wouldnt consider a C320 or C36 or CLK's to be bottom either.....

TinkySD

Here's the article, thanks for scanning crisco!

princed

One interesting thing about that article is the replacement costs for parts in the TSX. The only thing significantly cheaper with the Acura is the alternator...

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Yeah, other than that they're all about the same prices, but damn...someone's getting ripped on that windshield. Most windshields are just around $300-$400.

TinkySD

what i find interesting are all the acceleration times...especially passing times, top gear and then 4th. the general knock on NA 4s is no midrange or lowend but those time seem to show a much different story.

fdl

pitiful accel numbers... for all cars. Other than that pretty much what I would have guessed, rwd > fwd on a track.

DEVO

I have and am still leaning at the C230 for one major reason... it's RWD.

briny319

Actually I considered all 3 of these cars. Along with the 325i and the 03 tl.

dom

Obviously I'm wrong about comparing the C230 to a TSX and as a few of you have said your cross shopping them. I guess I was looking at this from a more personal perspective as the C230 was'nt even on my radar when shopping for a new car. For the reason that I perceived it to cost alot more (which it does in Canada) and the fact that its RWD.

Plus, I've been on this and the other site from the beggining. The C230 was only mentioned as TSX compatetition a few times, compared to countless Audi, BMW and Saab comparison's.

dom

A few more things that bother me about this article. The price of the cars is barley mentioned except at the end of article and in the pesonal point of view offered by Micheal La Fave. But he of course states he'd rather have the IS300 or G35 for a similar price. Well if 5 to 10K more is "similar" to Micheal then god bless him.

And Yes the G35 and IS are 5 to 10k more than the TSX up here in Canada.

TinkySD

look at the price as tested row at the bottom of the features comparison table. 7k more for the audi, 9k for the mercedes.

rb1

Those aren't traditional passing times. 60-100 kph is like going from 37 mph to 62 mph, when most U.S. rags quote 50 mph to 70 mph.

The Audi has taller gearing than the TSX even in 5 speed form is probably turning something like 1300 RPM @ 37 mph. No boost at that speed.

I see that the Mercedes (having a supercharger and hence no low-RPM boost issues), basically tied the TSX in the 4th gear pass and won the 6th gear pass.

(As an aside, I've always found the Audi to be too heavy for the 1.8T. The Jetta, weighing 300-400 lbs less and coupled with a 180 hp/173 lb-ft version is a much better match -- and folks over at VWVortex have dynos that shows it puts 173 lb-ft to the wheels)

TinkySD

Thought youewre always touting the low rpm powa' of the 1.8t the 4th gear test were significantly slower too and should have been in the boost I would think. The a4 is a little undepowered for it's size(tsx and c230 too) which is one of the reasons I thought it was exceptionally overpriced even though it looks fantastic.

Put the tsx motor in the rsx-s and you'll be hitting high 14's stock just like a 1.8t in a similarly weighty vehicle.

TinkySD

As a followup I think the gearing issue isn't something that should be discounted. Well designed and aggresive gearing is what gives high rpm/ low torque motors a chance to perform with their higher displacement rivals.

rb1

You are right, but this is one case in which the gearing (as you noted later) is significant in determining the outcome.

The Audi weighs 150 lbs more and has a very similar torque spec (and to a large degree, curve as well based on the spec of 166 lb-ft at 1950-5000 RPM). Even if the 4th gear overall ratio was the same as the TSX, it would still lose because it weighs 5% more. To the extent it's taller, it loses even worse. I can't seem to find the 2004 A4 gear ratios, or we could explore this further.

EDIT: Found the gear ratios.

Audi 4th gear is 1.03:1 (the same as the TSX), but the final drive 4.11:1 vs 4.76:1

So the TSX gets a 16% advantage in gearing here. Not surprisingly, the Audi takes almost exactly 16% longer to make the same pass...

Oh, I confirmed that the engine RPM at the start of the 6th gear pass in the Audi would be about 1350 RPM vs. 1500 or so RPM in the TSX, also coupled with about a 5% advantage in gearing to the TSX.

dom

Do you two ever stop?

I'm going to have to ask Justin to lock this thread if you two start pulling out dyno's again

DEVO

The only reason that the TSX is still on my radar scope is that price wise it can't be beat.

TinkySD

rb1 is my nemesis..i can never let his posts go unchallenged haha. Actually I agree with a lot rb1 says... don't take my comments(especially the ones about the 1.8t) as anything other than good natured ribbing.

Johns

The C230K is a great car. The build quality is very good and the engine has good pull (no race car though). You wouldn't be dissapointed. The TSX is also a great car. Unfortunatley, my wife,s TSX has multiple squeaks and rattles that are very annoying. We still enjoy the car though.

Iceman

Typical overpriced German cars. Put them up against the comparably priced Acura, namely the 2004 TL, and 0 of 3 editors will pick the Mercedes.

DEVO

I don't think anybody here will argue with you that they are not a little (ok maybe a lot) overpriced.... compared to a TL for example. But hey they can charge the money because they built up a name around a good solid car and we have people who like that status that goes with the name. I know the honda has a solid car but I have to say that I'm biased toward RWD and until they go that way or AWD it's a strike against them. They also need a V8 in their bigger cars. They can make a I4/V6 scream, I know they can do the same with a V8.

And then there are those that will praise the car for being FWD, I have plenty of FWD cars, I want RWD. And I don't buy the whole handling better in snow crap. Put snow tires on a RWD car and it's going to do fine.

Iceman

The German car makers can overprice their cars because they don't have enough competition. I love my TSX, and I think it OWNS the A4, but I don't think the TL owns the A6. Interior, yes. Mechanicals, yes. Exterior styling, no.

gilboman

i agree..but only if they dont turn the wheel during testing or compare quality of materials....German cars will always lose in the price/feature ratio...while the Germans (audi execpt) come out on top in the driving categories...depends on preference..if you want transportation get Japanese/Acura, if you want more and driving enjoyment is important to you..you have no choice but the overpriced germans..b/c Acura doesnt make anything in that category..the G35 and IS are close though.