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Old 10-11-2015, 05:45 PM
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its the sunk R&D for engine and platform of 7 series that is not recoverable. when leases are totally unrealistic.
who knows RLX real cost to Honda maybe $30k and sell it for $50k. so atleast leases covers the depreciation.
$60k is $60k no matter what percentage.
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:59 PM
  #322  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
I knew that German built unreliable crap but it didnot realized they do cheating on such large scale. the financial shock is such that Germany will be forced to lift sanctions on Russia. and cut down investments in VW group various divisions.

2012 750i only 27k miles. Asking $42k.
Used 2012 BMW 750i For Sale in Colma CA | Stock: BCDX01486 | San Francisco Bay Area


this $100k car. in three years $60k depreciation with such low mileage. alot of financial engineering.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:45 PM
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This brings to mind that Top Gear episode where Clarkson shows off the 7,000 pound Mercedes CL600.


An inspection of Jeremy?s £6,995 CL600 | Top Gear




Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
I knew that German built unreliable crap but it didnot realized they do cheating on such large scale. the financial shock is such that Germany will be forced to lift sanctions on Russia. and cut down investments in VW group various divisions.

2012 750i only 27k miles. Asking $42k.
Used 2012 BMW 750i For Sale in Colma CA | Stock: BCDX01486 | San Francisco Bay Area


this $100k car. in three years $60k depreciation with such low mileage. alot of financial engineering.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:10 PM
  #324  
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Originally Posted by Crazy Bimmer View Post
The VW Group isnt going anywhere, they are too massive. They will fix this and in 6 months to a year people will forget it happened.
You may want to revisit this prediction. Too early to see how this shakes out, but a break up the VAG is not unfathomable.

The legal bill alone could be well into the multiple tens of Billions, lawyers all over the world smell chum in the water.

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Old 10-12-2015, 07:15 PM
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Shareholders, bond holders, displaced employees, and dealers who's interests were negatively effected by this fraud will sue as well.

Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
You may want to revisit this prediction. Too early to see how this shakes out, but a break up the VAG is not unfathomable.

The legal bill alone could be well into the multiple tens of Billions, lawyers all over the world smell chum in the water.

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Old 10-12-2015, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
its the sunk R&D for engine and platform of 7 series that is not recoverable. when leases are totally unrealistic.
who knows RLX real cost to Honda maybe $30k and sell it for $50k. so atleast leases covers the depreciation.
$60k is $60k no matter what percentage.
You should be the CEO of BMW and show THEM how its really done
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
You may want to revisit this prediction. Too early to see how this shakes out, but a break up the VAG is not unfathomable.

The legal bill alone could be well into the multiple tens of Billions, lawyers all over the world smell chum in the water.

Originally Posted by Black Tire View Post
Shareholders, bond holders, displaced employees, and dealers who's interests were negatively effected by this fraud will sue as well.
I have to admit that, while I shared CB's view on this initially, it's looking very bleak at the moment.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:24 PM
  #328  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
yes. the lowest in my area RLX tech package is $28k with 57k miles. i am sure there will be lower outthere but at most $50k car is sold for $25k. thats $25k depreciation. with engine/transmission shared with other Honda products.
V8 BMW are rarity. It cost alot to develop V8 engine for low volumes. BMW simply dont have Toyota kind V8 market with its global SUV dominance.
Just GX460 alone sales 2k units a month in US.
you know depreciation is based on PERCENTAGE, not the actual dollar amount right?

you should get a GEO metro. You will never lose even at 90% depreciation you still only lost $8k.
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:04 AM
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Leonardo DiCaprio puts Volkswagen scandal film on the production line

Why would they already plan such a movie when details are still emerging of the scandal?

Leonardo DiCaprio to produce Volkswagen emissions scandal movie | Film | The Guardian

Leonardo DiCaprio’s production company is to bring the story of the Volkswagen emissions scandal to the big screen, according to the Hollywood Reporter.

Appian Way, which has worked on films such as The Revenant, The Wolf of Wall Street and Shutter Island, has bought the rights to an upcoming book by Jack Ewing which was recently picked up by publisher Norton for a six-figure sum. The company will team with studio Paramount on the movie version, which is expected to examine how a “more, better, faster” ethos fuelled one of the most extensive examples of corporate fraud in history.

VW has admitted that 11m vehicles around the world were fitted with a defeat device which allowed them to cheat emissions testing. In the US, where the scandal broke, the company programmed 500,000 diesel cars so that they adhered to strict environmental standards in testing but had emissions rates up to 40 times higher in daily use.

More than 1.2m cars in the UK are believed to be affected, while Volkswagen Australia and its luxury arm, Audi, are to recall more than 90,000 local cars. VW has set aside €6.5bn (£4.8bn) to meet the cost of recalling cars and fixing them so they meet environmental standards. Chief executive Matthias Müller said last week that the process would be completed by the end of 2016.

The US Senate finance committee is currently investigating whether VW and the buyers of its diesel cars may have benefited from more than $50m in government subsidies handed out in the belief vehicles caused less pollution then they actually did. The scandal wiped more than a third off Volkswagen’s share price in the days after the news broke in September, as well as sparking the resignation of CEO Martin Winterkorn.

It’s not known if DiCaprio will star in the finished movie, which is at the early stage of development and does not yet have a writer, director or cast attached. The Oscar nominee is known as a fierce supporter of environmental issues and recently signed a deal with Netflix to produce a series of green-themed documentaries.
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:07 AM
  #330  
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Questions Raised on VW's Reporting of U.S. Deaths, Injuries

Questions Raised on VW's Reporting of U.S. Deaths, Injuries - NBC News

Even as Volkswagen struggles to deal with its diesel emissions scandal, new data raise questions about whether the automaker has properly reported death and injury claims to U.S. regulators over the past decade.

A study by the financial advisory firm Stout Risius Ross Inc., found that Volkswagen of America reported nine times fewer deaths and injuries over the last decade than the average of the 11 largest automakers operating in the U.S. market. VW reported less than half as many incidents as either Fiat Chrysler or Honda, both of which have previously been fined for underreporting death and injury data, according to the study.

The Volkswagen figures stand in sharp contrast to the results of an earlier study of U.S. highway death data for 2010 to 2013 conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. It found VW's fatality rate was about average on a sales-weighted basis. The study did not look at injuries and relied on different data from the agency's Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), which is based on actual crash reports from authorities rather than reporting by manufacturers.

"The data (from the latest study) demonstrate that even on a fleet-adjusted basis, the number of reported incidents by Volkswagen is significantly below what one would expect based on those reported by other automakers," Neil Steinkamp, a Stout Risius managing director, told Bloomberg News Service, which commissioned the new study and first reported its results.

General Motors -- which last year announced over 70 recalls involving more than 30 million vehicles - had the highest number of reported incidents, with an annual average of 524 per 1 million vehicles over the last decade. The average for the 11 manufacturers was 301 reported incidents per 1 million vehicles. Toyota and BMW also ran above average.

Are Other Automakers Cheating on Diesel? Not So Fast

At the low end of the scale were, in descending order, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan and VW. Both Chrysler, with a reported 101 incidents per 1 million vehicles, and Honda, at 78, have both acknowledged underreporting their death and injury records. Volkswagen, meanwhile, came in at just 34 incidents per 1 million vehicles, "significantly below the reporting of automakers that have already been cited for non-compliance," according to Steinkamp.

Several Volkswagen insiders approached by TheDetroitBureau.com acknowledged surprise at the seeming disparity.

VW spokeswoman Jeannine Ginivan provided this statement: "Volkswagen considers the safety of its consumers and passengers a top priority. Volkswagen of America has received the study on Early Warning Reporting data; we take our reporting responsibilities very seriously. We have reviewed and will continue to evaluate the findings."

NHTSA did not return calls from TheDetroitBureau.com seeking comment on the study.

NHTSA began requiring automakers to provide detailed reports on death and injury claims 15 years ago in the wake of the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire fiasco. The new approach was designed to prevent a repeat of a situation in which it only became clear after more than 200 deaths had occurred that some of those tires were unexpectedly failing, leading to vehicle rollovers.

NHTSA has come under fire for failing to track more recent safety problems, such as the failure of GM ignition switches linked to more than 100 fatalities, as well as the problems with air bags using inflators produced by Japanese supplier Takata.

Takata Air Bag Recall Shrinks, But Investigations Widens

Honda, the largest user of Takata air bags, was fined $70 million when it acknowledged underreporting its safety problems earlier this year. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) was later hit with a record $105 million fine - and ordered to take actions to speed up recall response rates on a number of vehicles. The Financial Times reported last month that FCA it said it had found it had "significant" underreporting of death and injury data to the NHTSA due to "deficiencies" in its reporting methodology.

The federal safety agency has promised Congress and the public it will crack down on lapses by the auto industry, and that includes providing complete and accurate information on deaths, injuries and other safety-related problems.

But NHTSA shares the blame for the problem, said Clarence Ditlow, director for the Washington-based Center for Automotive Safety.

"The manufacturers quickly caught on" that the agency didn't have the resources to track all the information, Ditlow told TheDetroitBureau.com.

Asked if was possible VW vehicles really did have nine times fewer deaths and injuries than the industry average, Ditlow tersely responded, "No."

"If a manufacturer is going to cheat in one area they're going to cheat in another," he said, referring to the VW diesel emissions scandal.


Safety Agency to Shift Gears on Auto Industry Self-Certification

The German automaker has acknowledged inserting secret code in its engine control systems designed to detect when a diesel vehicle is undergoing testing. When that happens, it significantly reduces emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx). But in real-world use, those same vehicles can produce up to 40 times the federal limit for smog-causing NOx.

With two of the other makers at the low end of the scale already in trouble for underreporting safety issues, NHTSA is expected to take a closer look at overall compliance with the early incident reporting system.

The agency currently has four staff to handle the process of examining death and injury reports. President Barack Obama has called for the hiring of another seven. But despite holding a series of hearings on safety problems, Congress has yet to approve that budget request.
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Old 10-13-2015, 01:00 PM
  #331  
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Talking

LOL

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Old 10-13-2015, 02:16 PM
  #332  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
its the sunk R&D for engine and platform of 7 series that is not recoverable. when leases are totally unrealistic.
who knows RLX real cost to Honda maybe $30k and sell it for $50k. so atleast leases covers the depreciation.
$60k is $60k no matter what percentage.
Wait, what? BMW can't recover the costs of R&D in the 7 series, which sells many thousands more every year than the RLX, but Honda can recover the costs for a car that barely sells 3000 units per year? You do realize people lease the RLX also, right? Just go look through the RLX section and see how many guys have leased.

And if it costs Honda 30k to produce an RLX which is in turn sold for 50k, I'm sure BMW produces the 7 series for 50k and sells it for 100k. What are you arguing? You are so lost in your own world, you have no idea.
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Old 10-13-2015, 02:19 PM
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Funny, i saw a law firm commercial last night that is advertising to people who own VW/Audi TDI to get free evaluation of lawsuits
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello View Post
Wait, what? BMW can't recover the costs of R&D in the 7 series, which sells many thousands more every year than the RLX, but Honda can recover the costs for a car that barely sells 3000 units per year? You do realize people lease the RLX also, right? Just go look through the RLX section and see how many guys have leased.
Its the V8 gasoline engine and platform that cost lots of money to develop. even if BMW 7 series sell 30k sales per year. i highly doubt it can cover the costs.
And if it costs Honda 30k to produce an RLX which is in turn sold for 50k, I'm sure BMW produces the 7 series for 50k and sells it for 100k. What are you arguing? You are so lost in your own world, you have no idea.
$50k maybe true but every thing is eaten up in depreciation that there is no profit left to cover R&D costs.
BMW dealerships generaly have more loaner cars than Acura. that dispose off at bargain basement prices. $50 to $60k is regular depreciation on BMW 7 series in first two years.

you can get 2014 BMW 740 for asking $42k. basically 3 series asking price.
2014 BMW 7 Series 740i 29k miles


2013 750iL asking $44k for certified.
2013 BMW 7 Series Blue **PRICED TO MOVE!!**
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:46 AM
  #336  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
Its the V8 gasoline engine and platform that cost lots of money to develop. even if BMW 7 series sell 30k sales per year. i highly doubt it can cover the costs.

$50k maybe true but every thing is eaten up in depreciation that there is no profit left to cover R&D costs.
BMW dealerships generaly have more loaner cars than Acura. that dispose off at bargain basement prices. $50 to $60k is regular depreciation on BMW 7 series in first two years.

you can get 2014 BMW 740 for asking $42k. basically 3 series asking price.
2014 BMW 7 Series 740i 29k miles


2013 750iL asking $44k for certified.
2013 BMW 7 Series Blue **PRICED TO MOVE!!**
You say dumb things. I, for one, enjoy watching you do so. Carry on, sir.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:05 AM
  #337  
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Report: Basically All Diesel Cars Emit Way More Than Legal Limit

British newspaper The Guardian just released its second report investigating the real-world emissions of diesel vehicles, and it's not pretty: Models from Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi all put out more than the legal limit of NOx, the pollutant at the center of the Volkswagen diesel emissions scandal.

This follows an earlier Guardian report that revealed substantially higher levels of pollution in diesel vehicles sold by Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Fiat, Citroen, and many others.

The first round of data was compiled by ADAC, Europe's largest motoring organization, which tested vehicles first using the EU's lab-based testing (depicted above), then compared the data to a longer, UN-developed lab test that's thought to more realistically mimic real-world driving. The second report used on-road tests conducted by Emissions Analytics.

It's worth pointing out that all the vehicles tested were European-market diesels, many of which are not available in the U.S., and all of which passed either the current Euro 6 or the previous Euro 5 standard in the EU's official lab-based testing.

It's also important to note that none of the vehicles tested are accused of having illegal "defeat devices," as is the case with the Volkswagen Group diesel vehicles currently under investigation in the U.S. and Europe.

But The Guardian's reporting points out something that's been feared ever since emissions testing began: lab-based tests often do not accurately measure how a car performs in real-world use, and automakers often engineer their products to meet regulatory tests while emitting far more than the legal limit when driven in the real world.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:05 AM
  #338  
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Report: Basically All Diesel Cars Emit Way More Than Legal Limit

British newspaper The Guardian just released its second report investigating the real-world emissions of diesel vehicles, and it's not pretty: Models from Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi all put out more than the legal limit of NOx, the pollutant at the center of the Volkswagen diesel emissions scandal.

This follows an earlier Guardian report that revealed substantially higher levels of pollution in diesel vehicles sold by Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Fiat, Citroen, and many others.

The first round of data was compiled by ADAC, Europe's largest motoring organization, which tested vehicles first using the EU's lab-based testing (depicted above), then compared the data to a longer, UN-developed lab test that's thought to more realistically mimic real-world driving. The second report used on-road tests conducted by Emissions Analytics.

It's worth pointing out that all the vehicles tested were European-market diesels, many of which are not available in the U.S., and all of which passed either the current Euro 6 or the previous Euro 5 standard in the EU's official lab-based testing.

It's also important to note that none of the vehicles tested are accused of having illegal "defeat devices," as is the case with the Volkswagen Group diesel vehicles currently under investigation in the U.S. and Europe.

But The Guardian's reporting points out something that's been feared ever since emissions testing began: lab-based tests often do not accurately measure how a car performs in real-world use, and automakers often engineer their products to meet regulatory tests while emitting far more than the legal limit when driven in the real world.

"The VW issue in the U.S. was purely the trigger which threw light on a slightly different problem in the EU—widespread legal over-emissions," Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics conducted the testing, told The Guardian. "For NOx, [diesel] cars are on average four times over the legal limit, because of the lenient nature of the test cycle in the EU." ​

The increased scrutiny has led to a call for replacing lab-based emissions testing with real-world measurement, like the tests done by the West Virginia University lab that exposed Volkswagen's emissions cheating. But don't expect an immediate change: Automakers are asking for more lenient emissions standards if real-world testing becomes the norm.

Last edited by biker; 10-14-2015 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:14 AM
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:17 AM
  #340  
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Raise your hand if you think the Volvo engineers didn't know their S60 engine is emitting 14x NOx limits in real world conditions.

And if they did, is that cheating?


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Old 10-14-2015, 09:29 AM
  #341  
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Volkswagen's Designated North America Chief Leaves Carmaker

We have live footage of the last Volkswagen North America Chief's tenure at VW:




But seriously, here's the article.
Volkswagen's Designated North America Chief Leaves Carmaker
Volkswagen AG’s designated North America chief turned down the job in the wake of a management revamp triggered by the diesel-emissions scandal.

Winfried Vahland, a company veteran who currently leads VW’s Czech Skoda unit, decided to not take over the new post as had been planned and will leave the carmaker, Skoda said in an e-mailed statement.

Vahland was among the candidates to succeed former VW Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn, who resigned last month, but the supervisory board favored former Porsche chief Matthias Mueller. Vahland is leaving Wolfsburg, Germany-based Volkswagen at his own request. His departure is unrelated to the investigations into the rigging of millions of diesel engines worldwide, Skoda said in the statement.

Volkswagen said Tuesday it will reduce annual investment by about 1 billion euros ($1.1 billion) at its namesake car brand as the automaker steps up a cost-cutting push to weather the impact of the diesel-emissions scandal.
VW is under increasing financial strain following revelations last month that it rigged diesel engines to circumvent emissions regulations. The company set aside 6.5 billion euros for repairs and to compensate customers, but has said that won’t be enough. VW faces numerous lawsuits in the U.S., where it has lost money and struggled to become more than an also-ran despite rapid expansion elsewhere.

Vahland was appointed head of VW’s North American operations as part of a restructuring plan pushed by Mueller and meant to shift more responsibility to brand and regional managers. VW wasn’t immediately available to comment on whether it still planned to fill the post.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:10 PM
  #342  
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They see the writing on the wall of what's going to happen to VW.

Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
We have live footage of the last Volkswagen North America Chief's tenure at VW:


But seriously, here's the article.
Volkswagen's Designated North America Chief Leaves Carmaker


We could be seeing the end of Diesel Cars. Thus Toyota was on course with the hybrid option.



Last edited by Black Tire; 10-14-2015 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:21 PM
  #343  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX View Post
Its the V8 gasoline engine and platform that cost lots of money to develop. even if BMW 7 series sell 30k sales per year. i highly doubt it can cover the costs.

$50k maybe true but every thing is eaten up in depreciation that there is no profit left to cover R&D costs.
BMW dealerships generaly have more loaner cars than Acura. that dispose off at bargain basement prices. $50 to $60k is regular depreciation on BMW 7 series in first two years.

you can get 2014 BMW 740 for asking $42k. basically 3 series asking price.
2014 BMW 7 Series 740i 29k miles

2013 750iL asking $44k for certified.
2013 BMW 7 Series Blue **PRICED TO MOVE!!**
All you do is speculate. Overall, BMW sells way more cars than Acura could ever dream of selling and I'm guessing it's because they know what they're doing. By the end of the day, your total number of units sold is what counts. You focus on a single model way too much. Companies can muster a hit on one model, while giving a select buyer what they want, while profiting on others.

Look at Honda and the poorly selling CR-Z, or RLX, or now deceased Element, amongst others. Honda eats the loss on those because they profit on other models. There is NO way Honda is profitable with the RLX.

Why do you love Honda so much and hate everyone other manufacturer so much? I don't get it.
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Old 10-14-2015, 04:47 PM
  #344  
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Originally Posted by TacoBello View Post
All you do is speculate. Overall, BMW sells way more cars than Acura could ever dream of selling and I'm guessing it's because they know what they're doing. By the end of the day, your total number of units sold is what counts. You focus on a single model way too much. Companies can muster a hit on one model, while giving a select buyer what they want, while profiting on others.

Look at Honda and the poorly selling CR-Z, or RLX, or now deceased Element, amongst others. Honda eats the loss on those because they profit on other models. There is NO way Honda is profitable with the RLX.

Why do you love Honda so much and hate everyone other manufacturer so much? I don't get it.
Because he drives a TSX with upgraded tires. I mean Semi-upgrade since his Advan Sport is not really that good anyways.
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Black Tire View Post
We could be seeing the end of Diesel Cars.
That's a bit of an over-reaction. Just like the EPA adjusted numbers for mileage a few of years ago, they should adjust the emission numbers to make them more real world.
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:58 PM
  #346  
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
Because he drives a TSX with upgraded tires. I mean Semi-upgrade since his Advan Sport is not really that good anyways.
Yea, but he has best in class ground clearance and more expensive looking aerodynamic mirrors that no other manufacturer hasS.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello View Post
All you do is speculate. Overall, BMW sells way more cars than Acura could ever dream of selling and I'm guessing it's because they know what they're doing. By the end of the day, your total number of units sold is what counts. You focus on a single model way too much. Companies can muster a hit on one model, while giving a select buyer what they want, while profiting on others.
The problem is that single model is odd ball for development. V8 engine is practically extinct in rest of the world for BMW.
Look at Honda and the poorly selling CR-Z, or RLX, or now deceased Element, amongst others. Honda eats the loss on those because they profit on other models. There is NO way Honda is profitable with the RLX.
if you have some understanding of cars you wont raise CRZ and RLX issue. there parts and development is shared from rest of honda products. they are incremental products.
Why do you love Honda so much and hate everyone other manufacturer so much? I don't get it.
I regard the higher end of Toyota/Lexus products very highly. it is just i dont post in Toyota related topics. the rest is practical junk compared to Honda.

The quality and reliability is simply too low for the price. thats why they are so easy to buy as dealer stocks are overflowing.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:39 PM
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Old 10-15-2015, 09:00 PM
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I dont understand but here is my contribution:

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Old 10-15-2015, 09:55 PM
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Old 10-16-2015, 11:35 AM
  #351  
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i tried to google Acura inventory, but nothing came up.
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Old 10-16-2015, 12:22 PM
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Old 10-16-2015, 01:15 PM
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VW's Dieselgate Scandal Could Cost Up To $87 Billion In Total

and wow!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...-billion-total




Commercial vehicles collapsed...

Up to the end of September 2015, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles delivered 321,300 urban delivery vans, Transporters and pick-ups all over the world. The brand's deliveries therefore continue to be at the level of the previous year (January to September 2014: 324,800, -1.1 per cent).

In the West European markets deliveries fell by 0.2 per cent to 212,500 deliveries (213,000). In Germany deliveries fell by 5.6 per cent to 81,000 vehicles (85,800). There was once again a clear growth in sales in the United Kingdom with an increase of 13.1 per cent to 38,500 vehicles (34,050). In Spain, too, the brand's sales increased by 8.5 per cent to 7,200 deliveries (6,600).

In Eastern Europe deliveries fell by 21.2 per cent as at September to 21,800 vehicles (27,600). In the Middle East 26,000 vehicles were delivered – 43.8 per cent more than the previous year (18,100). In Mexico deliveries rose by 8.9 per cent to 4,800 vehicles (4,400).

In South America Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles delivered 27,700 vehicles (30,000; -7.7 per cent). The brand's deliveries in Brazil fell by 34.2 per cent to 9,100 vehicles (13,900). 14,500 vehicles were delivered on the Argentinian market, an increase of 13.0 per cent (12,850).

We thought it worth a look at just what VW faces...

Submitted by Gaurav Agnihotri via OilPrice.com,

The Volkswagen emission scandal (commonly known as Dieselgate) has shocked the entire world. It all began on September 18, 2015 when the German carmaker was charged for violating the Clean Air Act by the United States Environment Protection Agency (EPA).

Volkswagen’s turbodiesel models were found to be programmed with a ‘defeat device’ that would block the emission controls during the actual driving and would turn them on only during the emission testing phase itself. The amount of NOx emitted during the day-to-day driving was almost 40 times higher than the prescribed limits. With 11 million Volkswagen diesel vehicles being fitted with this ‘defeat device,’ there is little doubt that the VW Dieselgate could be one of the biggest scandals of all time.

"The market does not appear to be discounting negative knock-on effects. The outcome for recall costs and fines is unclear and largely depends on the engine performance post repair," said a Credit Suisse analyst in its report on the scandal. Estimates from Credit Suisse peg the costs of Dieselgate at a worst-case scenarios of $87 billion.

This would make the VW scandal almost 60 percent more costly than the BP Deepwater Horizon spill. Although the German car maker has allocated around $7.3 billion for dealing with the scandal, it could end up paying more than ten times the allocated amount.

Furthermore, the potential $87 billion in losses would be almost 7 times the German automaker’s net profit for 2014. The $87 billion figure from Credit Suisse includes costs related to owner re-imbursements, civil-criminal cases and fixing the emission problem. However, according to Credit Suisse, the biggest cost for VW would be to compensate for the ‘loss of value’ to the owners of the affected diesel cars, and this could be as high as $37 billion.

Moreover, it would be extremely difficult for VW to repair the damage that has been done to its global brand image after this incident, potentially costing the carmaker even more in the years ahead. There is little doubt that Dieselgate has the potential to completely shatter VW’s financial and brand value.

In a more modest case, Credit Suisse estimates that the damages could reach $26 billion, again more than three times what VW has set aside.

VW scandal could be even bigger than Enron Scandal and BP Deepwater Scandal combined

The Enron scandal of 2001 was one of the biggest and most expensive corporate scandals in U.S. history and it resulted in the collapse of Enron Corp., in wiping out close to $60 billion of its market value. The Enron scandal also wiped out almost $2.1 billion of retirement funds and around 5,600 jobs.

The recent BP Deepwater Horizon oil spill is yet another major scandal, one which could cost the oil giant more than $20 billion in form of fines and payments. However, with potential losses of close to $87 billion (as a worst case scenario estimate), the current VW scandal could actually be even bigger than the Enron scandal and BP scandal combined.

Can VW exploit any loopholes?

The year 2015 has witnessed the biggest out of court settlement of a single entity with the U.S. Department of Justice. Oil giant British Petroleum (BP) is compelled to pay $20.8 billion for charges imposed on it after its 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico that claimed 11 lives. Although that appears to be a staggering sum, BP will be able to write off $15.3 billion as tax deductible, significantly limiting the losses to the British oil giant.

BP would be able to write off the payments related to restoration, natural resource damage and government re-imbursements, thereby leaving only $5.5 billion as a non-tax deductible sum (which is related to the violation of ‘Clean Water Act’).

“BP was found to be grossly negligent in the Deepwater Horizon case, and yet the vast majority of what they are paying to make up for their gross negligence is legally considered just business as usual under the tax code unless the DOJ explicitly prohibits a write-off. This not only sends the wrong message, but it also hurts taxpayers by forcing us to shoulder the burden of BP’s tax windfall in the form of higher taxes, cuts to public programs, and more national debt,” said Michelle Surka of U.S Public Research Interest Group.

Is it possible for VW to find a similar kind of tax relief?

What Volkswagen might end up paying

VW will have to pay for government penalties, the loss of value to its customers in forms of recalls, legal fees and will have to deal with the loss of future sales and eroded brand value. VW could face an $18 billion penalty from the EPA according to a report from Reuters. Even European countries like the UK (where citizens received tax incentives for buying a VW diesel car) are looking to impose similar penalties on the German automaker. Moreover, with close to 11 million VW cars being affected by Dieselgate, the cost of recalls and legal cases could run into billions of dollars.

However, the U.S. tax code allows replacement, reimbursements and monetary compensation as costs of doing business, thereby making them tax deductible (unless otherwise mentioned in the agreement). Even penalties and fines are considered tax deductible. This means that VW might not have to pay $87 billion (as estimated by Credit Suisse) after all, but it doesn’t mean that the company can easily get away with the scandal.

Although VW has announced plans to make a significant change in its diesel technology in addition to pushing the development of its Electric Vehicles, it will be extremely difficult for it to re-build its lost reputation in the auto industry. With net cash in hand of around $28 billion, the German carmaker needs to raise a lot of cash to stay afloat in the years ahead. VW shares have already collapsed by more than 35 percent since the scandal broke, and the $7.3 billion that it has kept aside for Dieselgate will not be enough given the possibility of paying almost 3-4 times the said amount (similar to the conservative estimate put across by Credit Suisse) even when we consider any possible tax deductions. The coming few months will greatly impact the future of the German car manufacturer.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:00 PM
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Old 10-19-2015, 09:39 AM
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Volkswagen faces €40bn lawsuit from investors

We knew this was coming. If the recalls and government fines don't finish VW, this will.

Volkswagen faces ?40bn lawsuit from investors - Telegraph

Legal firms trying to gather investors to sue Volkswagen for €40bn over losses suffered as result of emissions scandal

Volkswagen is set to be pushed deeper into crisis after it emerged that the carmaker is facing a record-breaking €40bn (£30bn) legal attack spearheaded by one of the world’s top law firms.

Quinn Emanuel, which has won almost $50bn (£32bn) for clients and represented Google, Sony and Fifa, has been retained by claim funding group Bentham to prepare a case for VW shareholders over the diesel emissions scandal, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal. Bentham has recently backed an action by Tesco shareholders over the retailer’s overstating of profits.

The pair are attempting to assemble a huge class action following what they call “fundamental dishonesty” at the German auto giant, which plunged the carmaker into crisis after it admitted using “defeat devices” to cheat pollution tests.

The admission has been hugely costly for shareholders after it wiped more than €25bn off VW’s stock market value. Recalls and fines worth tens of billions of euros more are also expected.

Now Quinn Emanuel and Bentham are contacting VW’s biggest investors – which include sovereign wealth funds of Qatar and Norway – to ask them to join the claim.

VW has admitted that it fitted “defeat devices” to 11m cars that allowed them to fraudulently pass pollution controls, though the company’s senior management has insisted it was unaware of the practices.

Richard East, co-managing partner of Quinn Emanuel in London, said: “We estimate shareholders’ losses could be €40bn as a result of VW’s failure to provide relevant disclosure [about defeat devices] to the market and gives rise to questions about fundamental dishonesty.”

Legal action would be pursued in Germany under its Securities Trading Act, according to Quinn Emanuel, which hopes to file the first wave of actions by February. The law firm will argue that VW’s failure to reveal its use of defeat devices to shareholders constituted gross negligence by management.

Mr East added that damages could be calculated from 2009 – when VW started fitting the devices to its engines – and that if investors had known about them they would not have held or traded in VW shares. “We don’t think it will be very hard to find shareholders who have suffered because of it,” he said.

“Institutional investors will be under pressure from their own shareholders to act after the fall in VW shares.”

Jeremy Marshall, chief investment officer at Bentham, said that bringing a joint action by institutional investors is a more effective way of suing VW.
“We have been in touch with a tremendous number of VW shareholders. We would not be able to get it up and running unless there was sufficient investor appetite,” he said.

Mr Marshall said to fund the case, Bentham would look to get between 20pc and 25pc of any damages paid, adding that it would probably cost between €6m and €7m, before it went anywhere near a courtroom.

VW is largely controlled by two major investors, with Porsche holding 50pc and the German state of Lower Saxony controlling 20pc, and it is thought they are unlikely to sue over losses, with their own interests closely linked to VW’s health.

The next-biggest shareholder is Qatar’s state investment fund at 17pc, then stakes drop down to 2pc or below, among them Norway’s sovereign wealth fund, Suzuki, Axa and Blackrock.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:25 PM
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Yup.

If all the billions of fines don't finish VW. The poor sales for the next X years from the endless lawsuit + the constant bad publicity will finish the job.

i am very curious how many cars they have sold since the news broke out.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:57 PM
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If I had a TDI right now, I would keep it. It will become a collectors piece.
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
Yup.

If all the billions of fines don't finish VW. The poor sales for the next X years from the endless lawsuit + the constant bad publicity will finish the job.

i am very curious how many cars they have sold since the news broke out.
I just want discounted Porsches.
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:12 PM
  #359  
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You can see what's going, all the parties are racing to have a piece before VW declares bankruptcy. Not sure if these parties can sue once they have declared bankrupt.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:26 PM
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Ah, another great American export - litigation.
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