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Volkswagen: Development and Technology News

Old 10-21-2015, 06:35 PM
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How Could Volkswagen’s Top Engineers Not Have Known?

For the gearheads at West Virginia University, it was a minor commission. An environmental group, the International Council on Clean Transportation, had asked the school’s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions to test the tailpipes of diesel cars in the U.S., such as those sold by Volkswagen and BMW. Studies suggested that automakers’ diesel cars polluted more on the road than in the lab, and curiously, more in Europe than in the U.S. ICCT wanted to figure out what the automakers had done to meet America’s tougher emissions standards and how to repatriate these improvements for European car buyers....
How Could Volkswagen?s Top Engineers Not Have Known? - Bloomberg Business
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
Ah, another great American export - litigation.
Perhaps you've already forgotten about names such as Enron, Worldcom and Arthur Andersen.

While you poo~poo the dirty deeds done dirt cheap, it can be legitimately argued that VW can and will be wiped from existence for something much more egregious than accounting errors.
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:52 PM
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Wow good read. Thanks for posting!
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
Perhaps you've already forgotten about names such as Enron, Worldcom and Arthur Andersen.

While you poo~poo the dirty deeds done dirt cheap, it can be legitimately argued that VW can and will be wiped from existence for something much more egregious than accounting errors.
Worst case scenario, they jettison the VW brand. Audi, Porsche, Lambo all still have value to investors. VW's image is likely permanently damaged in the US. I think they make it through this, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the end of the VW brand in the US.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:38 AM
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Thinking back, at the time when Acura was planning to release a clean diesel engine for the North American TSX sedan.

The diesel TSX didn't materialize because, Honda, just like VW, didn't want to use the MB-pioneered urea injection technology, and was having difficulty in meeting the stringent US emission requirements by using Honda's indigenous precious-metal catalyst to control emission output.

Honda is particularly good in building high efficiency engines, and has been selling diesel cars in the European markets for many years.

I had been wondering for a long time why VW could do it without using urea injection, but Honda couldn't.

Now, the puzzle is finally solved. VW cheated and lied.
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Old 10-22-2015, 03:54 AM
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At the time not only cost but lack of new auto transmission for diesel.

Honda Delays 60-mpg Diesel Acura TSX - HybridCars.com
he main reason for the delay is cost. Honda claims the expense of creating a diesel engine to meet California’s emissions standards—allowing it to be sold in all 50 states—has increased to more than $5,000 above a comparable gasoline-powered version.
In addition to cost factors, Honda has been unable to produce the diesel model with an automatic transmission that would pass emissions standards. Honda was not ready to move forward with marketing only a manual model in the American market.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:54 AM
  #367  
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Toyota tried it as well and even told the press that it was impossible to have a clean diesel engine. At least we know that Toyota/Honda are more honest than VW.


Originally Posted by Edward'TLS View Post
Thinking back, at the time when Acura was planning to release a clean diesel engine for the North American TSX sedan.

The diesel TSX didn't materialize because, Honda, just like VW, didn't want to use the MB-pioneered urea injection technology, and was having difficulty in meeting the stringent US emission requirements by using Honda's indigenous precious-metal catalyst to control emission output.

Honda is particularly good in building high efficiency engines, and has been selling diesel cars in the European markets for many years.

I had been wondering for a long time why VW could do it without using urea injection, but Honda couldn't.

Now, the puzzle is finally solved. VW cheated and lied.
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Old 10-22-2015, 02:45 PM
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It makes me wonder if they are cheating on/lying about other things too.....
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Old 10-22-2015, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iforyou View Post
It makes me wonder if they are cheating on/lying about other things too.....
and that is what is going to decide if VW can survive this thing.

We all know perception and reputation have more ability to sell cars than the price and the cars themselves. This is especially true in the 2 biggest market, US and China.

so far it seems VW has not done enough damage control.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:25 PM
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For sure.

In terms of damage control, for me, I don't know what they can really do.
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:04 PM
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we don't because we are not getting paid millions to manage it.

I would expect the people who are getting paid should know.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:18 AM
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Volkswagen testing 2nd engine for emissions-cheating software

Volkswagen testing 2nd engine for emissions-cheating software - Business - CBC News

Emissions scandal was centred on the EA 189 engine, but the EA 288 may also have the cheat device

A second Volkswagen diesel engine sold in Canada may have been fitted with software to cheat on emissions tests, the company revealed on Thursday.

VW had previously admitted that the software was installed on cars with the EA 189 diesel engine built to the "Euro 5" emissions standard.

The company is now checking whether older models with the EA 288 diesel motor built to the same emissions standard may also have the software, a spokesman said. The 2.0-litre, four-cylinder engine was introduced in 2012.

A Volkswagen Canada spokesman said cars with this engine are being tested by regulators here for the "cheat device," which switches on emissions controls for nitrogen oxide in testing conditions but switches them off during real-world driving.

The vehicles equipped with this engine have been under a stop-sale notice in Canada since Sept. 21 and will remain so until a resolution is found, the VW Canada spokesman said.

There is as yet no timetable for a recall, he added.

U.S. cars affected, but not EU vehicles

They were included in the original count of affected Volkswagen products issued by Environment Canada, which amounted to more than 100,000 cars.

Volkswagen says as many as 70,000 U.S. vehicles may have the EA 288 engine, but it believes vehicles sold in Europe do not have the software.

Until now, the scandal has been centred on the EA 189 diesel engine, a four-cylinder engine introduced in 2009 which is known to have the software.

The Euro 5 emissions standards, implemented in 2009, set emissions levels for European cars and light trucks. The Volkswagen emissions scandal has revealed the degree to which North American regulators relied on the EU to test diesel engines.

Diesel engines generally have lower carbon emissions than gasoline engines, but higher emissions of particulates and nitrogen oxide, which can cause smog and contribute to asthma and respiratory problems.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:55 AM
  #373  
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I saw this commercial on TV and thought it was pretty funny as the underlying theme is deception.

This one is cut differently than the TV version though.

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Old 10-23-2015, 11:52 AM
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:13 PM
  #375  
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Volkswagen enlarges emissions scandal probe: 'Millions' more cars may have cheated

If I were VW, I'd throw in the towel. It's just gets worse day by day...

Volkswagen enlarges emissions scandal probe: 'Millions' more cars may have cheated ? The Register

Volkswagen has warned that the figure of 11 million cars that cheated in air-pollution tests may be larger than first thought.

The automaker is under fire for using diesel engines that deliberately lowered their output of nitrogen oxides during lab testing to pass strict emissions standards. In real-world use, the cars pumped limit-busting amounts of harmful gasses into the atmosphere.

In a statement on Thursday, the German car manufacturer confirmed that two versions of its diesel engines, the EA 288 EU5 and EU6 models, were free of so-called "defeat devices" designed to fool emissions testers.

Crucially, it is now looking at earlier builds of the engine to see if they also use the dodgy standards-evading software, potentially adding to the 11-million figure.

"I think it is a big problem," Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer, head of the Center for Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen, told Reuters, saying millions more cars could be defective. "It suggests it doesn't know its product, which is a tragedy."

EA 288 engines are used in the Volkswagen Golf, Volkswagen Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Passat, and Jetta. A representative of Volkswagen America said that none of the firm's cars in the US were covered by the statement.

Volkswagen has warned that recalling and fixing all the cars carrying defeat devices could reach $7bn, but that's just the cost of correcting the vehicle's engine and control software. There are also legal costs to factor in.

The National Law Journal has been keeping an eye on the situation and now estimates that over 300 separate lawsuits are pending against Volkswagen in the US over the incident. Americans are notoriously litigious, however there are fewer than half a million Volkswagens in the US affected by defeat devices. But VW has legal problems in other parts of the world.

There are also government penalties to consider. American car companies are lobbying for the feds to issue a very large fine against Volkswagen, and the EU and Australian governments have also warned of bills to come. ®
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Old 10-24-2015, 02:32 AM
  #376  
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This sort of sensationalism was going on when the Boeing 787 first came out. There were battery fires, hydraulic issues and the whole fleet was grounded. There was stuff in the press everyday lining out all kinds of doom day scenarios for the plane. And today? Boeing can't make the plane fast enough. It's not quite the same with VW, but all of this negative publicity will pass and VW will be making lots of TDI based cars well into the future.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
It's not quite the same with VW, but all of this negative publicity will pass and VW will be making lots of TDI based cars well into the future.
"It's not quite the same" might be the understatement of the year.

Setbacks in the name of genuine innovation are quite different than "negative publicity" over lying and cheating.

While apologists like biker fiddle, Wolfsburg burns...
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:51 AM
  #378  
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
This sort of sensationalism was going on when the Boeing 787 first came out. There were battery fires, hydraulic issues and the whole fleet was grounded. There was stuff in the press everyday lining out all kinds of doom day scenarios for the plane. And today? Boeing can't make the plane fast enough. It's not quite the same with VW, but all of this negative publicity will pass and VW will be making lots of TDI based cars well into the future.
This couldn't be farther from the truth.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:52 AM
  #379  
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You know, many diesel car buyers/owners wouldn't care less about 10x or 100x excessive emissions.

All that they want is a diesel vehicle that is both fuel saving and powerful enough.

I bet many of the those VW owners will refuse to do the upcoming recall (when available) on their "dirty" diesel vehicles; because, after the recall, their vehicles will consume more fuel and will also lose hp.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS View Post
You know, many diesel car buyers/owners wouldn't care less about 10x or 100x excessive emissions.

All that they want is a diesel vehicle that is both fuel saving and powerful enough.

I bet many of the those VW owners will refuse to do the upcoming recall (when available) on their "dirty" diesel vehicles; because, after the recall, their vehicles will consume more fuel and will also lose hp.
That won't work. The update will be mandatory, as these cars are required to pass emissions. As built, they won't be legal to drive.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
"It's not quite the same" might be the understatement of the year.

Setbacks in the name of genuine innovation are quite different than "negative publicity" over lying and cheating.

While apologists like biker fiddle, Wolfsburg burns...
Do you see anywhere in the news the fact that the V60 Volvo diesel emissions are 14x over the limit in real world driving? This is from the company that 20 years ago had ads touting that the air coming out of the tail pipe is cleaner than the air going in the air cleaner.

My point is that in today's 30 sec news cycle, folks lose interest and basic economics usually win out. Sure, VW will have a big hit to their finances and every time there's some news about this issue it will make headlines. But VW will keep making TDI equipped cars and people will keep buying them. That's not apologist, just reality.
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Old 10-25-2015, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
That won't work. The update will be mandatory, as these cars are required to pass emissions. As built, they won't be legal to drive.
Says who? As long as the car passes the emissions test it's a legal car. This whole affair pointed out the huge disconnect between what happens at the testing station vs. real world.

Biker, who now understands why Honda was reticent to introduce the diesel into the NA market.
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Old 10-25-2015, 06:45 AM
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Fraud in Germanic corporate is huge.

Deutsche Bank CEOs ?Shown Door? - World's Largest Holder of Derivatives In Trouble?
Deutsche Bank CEOs “Shown Door” – World’s Largest Holder of Derivatives In Trouble?


Even manufacturing defect for some thing that is 15 years in production.

Fault Forces Germany to Stop Eurofighter Orders
Fault Forces Germany to Stop Eurofighter Orders
Defence ministry officials told the Bundestag (German parliament) on Monday that the plane has a "manufacturing defect" which affects "the connection between the fin and the rear end of the jet.”
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
That won't work. The update will be mandatory, as these cars are required to pass emissions. As built, they won't be legal to drive.
The existing diesel engine software will defeat the current method of emission tests.

In addition, thousands and thousands of these "illegal" VW diesel vehicles are being driven daily on the roads right now.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:32 PM
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The government will probably come down hard on any owners and garages trying to pass VW cars without the fix.


Originally Posted by Edward'TLS View Post
The existing diesel engine software will defeat the current method of emission tests.

In addition, thousands and thousands of these "illegal" VW diesel vehicles are being driven daily on the roads right now.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:56 PM
  #386  
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I am gonna order some catless test pipe and when I can't pass my smog, i will point my finger at the VW TDi and tell them they are worse than me
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
Do you see anywhere in the news the fact that the V60 Volvo diesel emissions are 14x over the limit in real world driving?
No because this is the "truth in engineering" thread which pollutes up to 40x worse than EPA allowed mandates.

My point is that in today's 30 sec news cycle, folks lose interest and basic economics usually win out. Sure, VW will have a big hit to their finances and every time there's some news about this issue it will make headlines.
How long did it take VAG recover from Audi Five Audi unexpected accelleration circa '80's? That was without the anticipated $50 Billion+ hit to bottom line.

But VW will keep making TDI equipped cars and people will keep buying them. That's not apologist, just reality.
Ask the crunchy audience who has been burned by their "clean diesel" if they will come back soon.

Biker, who hasn't been in California recently.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:51 PM
  #388  
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS View Post
The existing diesel engine software will defeat the current method of emission tests.

In addition, thousands and thousands of these "illegal" VW diesel vehicles are being driven daily on the roads right now.
The cars aren't illegal because they failed the test. The cars are illegal because they severely exceed emissions regulations. There is no way in heck owners can drive these cars as is. The EPA is all over that.

In Texas, I wouldn't be able to reregister a TDI without whatever fix VW devises.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post

Biker, who hasn't been in California recently.
Maybe not, but he knows human nature and simple economics.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
In Texas, I wouldn't be able to reregister a TDI without whatever fix VW devises.
...and after you register it there's nothing to prevent you from buying/installing an ECU with the original firmware (which will pass the subsequent emission tests).
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:42 PM
  #391  
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
...and after you register it there's nothing to prevent you from buying/installing an ECU with the original firmware (which will pass the subsequent emission tests).
There's a lot of talk about this on the TDI forums.
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Old 10-27-2015, 02:07 PM
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^^^^^

This is bound to happen, given the excellent fuel economy and amble hp with the "illegal" software back in the good old days.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:53 AM
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....and in related news....

http://www.autonews.com/article/2015...thorities-rule

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Car owners and computer security researchers can modify automobile software without incurring some U.S. copyright liability, according to new guidelines issued this month that had been opposed by the auto industry.

The Library of Congress, which oversees the U.S. Copyright Office, agreed with fair use advocates who argued that vehicle owners are entitled to modify their cars, which often involves altering software.

Automakers including General Motors, and other companies such as John Deere, opposed the rules. They said vehicle owners could visit authorized repair shops for changes they may need to undertake.

However, U.S. copyright officials decided that altering computer programs for vehicle repair or modification may not infringe a manufacturer's software copyright.

Representatives for GM and John Deere could not immediately be reached for comment.

Security researchers also pushed for copyright liability protection because computer programs are "pervasive" in modern machines and devices, including vehicles, home appliances and medical devices.

"We are pleased that analysts will now be able to examine the software in the cars we drive without facing legal threats from car manufacturers," said Kit Wilson, a staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which advocated for the rule changes.

The new rules must be renewed in three years, Wilson said.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:55 AM
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So after VW applies the fix, TDI owners can put any software they want in their car - well, unless the states and EPA want to sue over different rules.
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:36 AM
  #395  
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Volkswagen 'facing corporate manslaughter charge' over rigged tests

wow

VW emissions scandal: Volkswagen 'facing corporate manslaughter charge' over rigged tests | Business News | News | The Independent

Volkswagen could be prosecuted on a corporate manslaughter charge over rigged diesel emission tests, ministers have said, as the Government faced questions from MPs over the number of deaths that could be attributed to the scandal.

Transport minister Robert Goodwill told the Environmental Audit Committee that a corporate manslaughter charge may be considered if legal advice suggests it could be successful.

Mr Goodwill said there were “a number of areas” where prosecution could be brought. Asked whether corporate manslaughter was an option he said: “That’s probably something that’s above my pay grade to decide – whether a prosecution of that type might be successful. But certainly if it could be proven that a case like that could be brought then certainly that could be open.”

It would be for law enforcement authorities, rather than the Government, to bring forward a corporate manslaughter case against the company.

Thousands of people die every year as a result of nitrogen oxide (NOx) air pollution, with diesel vehicles the main cause.

Volkswagen has admitted to adding “defeat devices” to millions of its vehicles to enable them to produce dramatically less NOx pollution in lab tests than they do on the road. However, it is not yet clear how many deaths could be linked to increased emissions as a result of the scandal.

In the UK, 1.2 million affected cars will be recalled, starting in early 2016. A spokesperson for Volkswagen said that the procedure for removing the defeat devices was still being developed by experts in Germany and it is still unclear whether the adjustments will actually reduce NOx emissions.

Experts at Kings College London estimate around 5,800 premature deaths in the UK can be linked to diesel emissions from vehicles.

Other avenues for legal action against Volkswagen could include a prosecution based on misleading testing authorities, or an investigation through the Competitions and Markets Authority, Mr Goodwill said.

Ministers also faced questions over how much they knew about discrepancies in testing before Volkswagen’s deception came to light last month.

Research carried out six years ago by the Department of Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) suggested that pollution levels in real world engine tests were consistently higher than those recorded in lab settings. A further report in 2011 identified an “inadequate testing regime”.

But appearing before the committee, DEFRA minster Rory Stewart said that discrepancies between the two types of test had been public knowledge for several years. Ministers had, however, not been aware before the VW scandal of any manufacturer actively “cheating” the test, he said.

“In other words what we thought the problem was, was that the test was no good,” he said, adding that minsters had pushed for an emphasis on real world testing at the European Union’s Environment Council.

“We’d set up a test where we’d revealed the rules so clearly to the manufacturers that they were designing cars which were exactly designed to mimic those tests and perform against those test. It would be like producing for a student preparing for an exam all of the details of how that exam was going to be conducted,” he said.

Mr Stewart said that the Government’s goal was to halve the number of deaths attributable to air pollution by 2030, and that this target would be aided by Europe strengthening the testing regime for vehicle engines.

Caroline Lucas, the Green Party MP for Brighton Pavilion, questioned how hard ministers had been lobbying for tougher tests. In the last parliament, she said, ministers held 116 meetings with representatives from car manufacturers and only two with clean air campaigners.

“If it was known [that tests were inadequate]…and there was all of this pushing and in the meantime people are dying, it doesn’t seem the pushing has been commensurate to the challenge that is out there,” she said.

A spokesperson for Volkswagen said the company could not comment on potential legal proceedings
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:56 AM
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“We’d set up a test where we’d revealed the rules so clearly to the manufacturers that they were designing cars which were exactly designed to mimic those tests and perform against those test. It would be like producing for a student preparing for an exam all of the details of how that exam was going to be conducted,” he said.
Yeah, so? The mileage test is the same way. The EPA and EU made up the test and VW and everyone else passed it. If they wanted to test something else they should change the test - but the car makers have to know what to test.

Last edited by biker; 10-28-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
Yeah, so? The mileage test is the same way. The EPA and EU made up the test and VW and everyone else passed it. If they wanted to test something else they should change the test - but the car makers have to know what to test.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:23 PM
  #398  
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Volkswagen shares rise despite billions of losses

Volkswagen shares rise despite billions of losses

Volkswagen's share price rallied on Wednesday despite an operating loss of 3.48 billion euros ($3.84 billion) in the third quarter, as a scandal over falsifying its diesel emissions knocked the company.

The carmaker was forced to take its first quarterly loss in 15 years, slightly deeper than analysts' forecasts, as it anticipated hefty payouts to consumers around the world over the deceptive data on its diesel emissions and the potential recall of 11 million cars. This set of results factored in a 6.7 billion euros writedown related to the scandal, lower than some had feared. After a couple of hours of trade, the stock was up close to 4 percent.

Sales revenues in the first nine months of the year were up 8.5 percent, and the carmaker reaffirmed its full-year new car deliveries of around 10.14 million. One positive step for investors could be the carmakers' discussions with European Union member states' authorities to limit legal action beyond what has already been agreed with Germany's KBA (Federal Motor Transport Authority).

Since the scandal emerged, Volkswagen has appointed a new chief executive, Matthias Mueller, and promised to step up cost-cutting efforts.

Mueller said in a statement: "The figures show the core strength of the Volkswagen Group on the one hand, while on the other the initial impact of the current situation is becoming clear. We will do everything in our power to win back the trust we have lost."

Winning back that trust in both its cars and its share price could be difficult.

"Volkswagen is facing a big black hole that it's going to have to throw money at for the foreseeable future, and at the moment it has no idea how deep that hole is," Laith Khalaf, senior analyst, HargreavesLansdown, wrote in a research note.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:27 PM
  #399  
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Manslaughter charge...wow....
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Old 10-29-2015, 06:16 PM
  #400  
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
Maybe not, but he knows human nature and simple economics.
So then we can safely assume you got the cliffs in econ 101 for dummies about writing down goodwill and unfunded liabilities.
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