Notices

Toyota: Supra News

 
Old 05-29-2019, 11:25 AM
  #721  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts
I imagine the Supra/Z4 would be more liveable as a DD, but the GT350 more fun.
00TL-P3.2 is offline  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:56 PM
  #722  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Originally Posted by iforyou View Post
I struggle to think of any cars that are quite like the supra on the market. The muscle cars like the mustang and camaro, while fast, aren't exactly light compared to the supra. They also don't seem to be as fun to drive as the new supra. The new Supra seems to be getting really good reviews regarding it's driving fun.

I think it's always difficult to make a successor to a legendary car. The MK 4 supra was launched in 1992? That's almost 3 decades ago and so comparison will also be unfair either way. For the most part I feel like Toyota has stuck with the original formula as much as possible while modernizing the car.

Hard to find one... but here it is BMW Z4
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:58 PM
  #723  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Originally Posted by MSZ View Post
For the money I would definitely take the GT350 over Supra anyday of the week. And if I really want a Bimmer I would just go buy a Bimmer.
This...

oonowindoo is offline  
Old 05-29-2019, 02:37 PM
  #724  
Ex-OEM King
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 5,959
Received 1,752 Likes on 1,197 Posts
Originally Posted by 00TL-P3.2 View Post
I imagine the Supra/Z4 would be more liveable as a DD, but the GT350 more fun.
I wouldn't daily any of them. And who cares about livability, roll the windows down and wind it up.

Any car that needs a "quiet start" mode from the factory deserves an automatic buy recommendation from me. Apparently one of the Ford execs had a GT350 and his neighbors complained that his car was too loud in the morning, guessing he likely lived in some posh area. So he came to work one day and said that car needed a quiet start mode because of that.
SamDoe1 is offline  
Old 05-29-2019, 04:01 PM
  #725  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts

I'm with you 100%. Out of those 3, the GT350 gets my money each time.
00TL-P3.2 is offline  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:13 AM
  #726  
Senior Moderator
 
F23A4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Age: 51
Posts: 16,498
Received 491 Likes on 327 Posts
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
What about getting a Toyota with BMW quality? Because that's what you're actually getting.

Also, no they won't be cross shopped much but at a similar price point I know where my money is going.
Or a BMW finally built to Toyota standards:

But then as development proceeded into next phases I was comforted when I saw there were later stages where Toyota would be the exact opposite, and BMW couldn't believe how extensive some of our quality and efficiency studies were as parts came into shape one by one. We would take every bit down to a fastener or rivet, and put it through our stringent quality control and a dozen other testing, we'd ship thousands of parts back to Japan for analysis. That is normal to us. Each piece we test at our level, they were now the ones surprised.


https://club4ag.com/chief-engineer-t...ment-with-bmw/
F23A4 is offline  
Old 05-30-2019, 08:46 AM
  #727  
Ex-OEM King
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 5,959
Received 1,752 Likes on 1,197 Posts
Toyota may have had input into the quality standards but the car is still manufactured on a BMW assembly line using BMW parts for damn near everything. I have no doubts that the body panels, screws, and rivets will be just fine but I'd be more concerned about the engine, suspension, transmission, drivetrain, electronics, etc that are all straight out of the BMW parts bin. They aren't going to 100% change their quality system for one car model, that's an effort that would take years and lots of money to incorporate Toyota quality systems into a company like BMW. That said, modern BMW's aren't bad in terms of reliability anyway, just the cost to maintain them is high. Wonder if you can just take that brand new Z4 to a Toyota dealership for service...

Edit: Apparently the car is made on a contract assembly line with a bunch of other models from other makes. That's not better.
SamDoe1 is offline  
Old 05-31-2019, 01:44 PM
  #728  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
are we talking about quality or reliability?

Cuz i can tell you everything BMW uses is 1 or 2 levels above Toyota in term of quality. The infotainment system in the Supra is at least 2 Generation ahead of anything Toyota/Lexus has on the market right now.. But, reliability? Sure...

You gotta pay to play is true in every industry... you want a car that cost 50k that does 0-60 under 4 secs and you want best of the best reliability.........something has to give... so the question is do you want the price to be higher? sacrifice in performance and sacrifice some reliability?

Now i see just as many as Older BMW on the road as Toyota... sometimes i even question why they are on the road... but they are.

Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-31-2019 at 01:48 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:55 AM
  #729  
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
 
iforyou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 32
Posts: 9,028
Received 572 Likes on 385 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
Hard to find one... but here it is BMW Z4
Haha isn't the z4 a convertible only?
iforyou is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:03 AM
  #730  
Alright, alright, alright
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 12,248
Received 1,721 Likes on 1,126 Posts
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Toyota may have had input into the quality standards but the car is still manufactured on a BMW assembly line using BMW parts for damn near everything. I have no doubts that the body panels, screws, and rivets will be just fine but I'd be more concerned about the engine, suspension, transmission, drivetrain, electronics, etc that are all straight out of the BMW parts bin. They aren't going to 100% change their quality system for one car model, that's an effort that would take years and lots of money to incorporate Toyota quality systems into a company like BMW. That said, modern BMW's aren't bad in terms of reliability anyway, just the cost to maintain them is high. Wonder if you can just take that brand new Z4 to a Toyota dealership for service...

Edit: Apparently the car is made on a contract assembly line with a bunch of other models from other makes. That's not better.
a colleague of my wife's has been a BMW tech working on thousands of bimmer's since the mid 70's. He says this decade they've made great strides in reliability and durability. Worst decade he says is the 2000's.




Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
are we talking about quality or reliability?

Cuz i can tell you everything BMW uses is 1 or 2 levels above Toyota in term of quality. The infotainment system in the Supra is at least 2 Generation ahead of anything Toyota/Lexus has on the market right now.. But, reliability? Sure...

You gotta pay to play is true in every industry... you want a car that cost 50k that does 0-60 under 4 secs and you want best of the best reliability.........something has to give... so the question is do you want the price to be higher? sacrifice in performance and sacrifice some reliability?

Now i see just as many as Older BMW on the road as Toyota... sometimes i even question why they are on the road... but they are.
That's your opinion but it's also not a fact and virtually impossible to put a metric or parameter on.
The second statement is what Ferrari engineering used on Montezemolo when he took over Ferrari in 1991, and Luca's disappointment in recent road Ferrari's.
Luca berated the engineers and senior staff comparing what Honda did with the NSX being less expensive, more reliable and better performance than the 348.
There's many great examples where designs had the trifecta of design (cost/reliability/performance), the F-16 is one.

Last edited by Legend2TL; 06-03-2019 at 09:15 AM.
Legend2TL is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:38 PM
  #731  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Originally Posted by iforyou View Post
Haha isn't the z4 a convertible only?
Is it? maybe... same shit... at those prices, i dont think BMW will sell many to be honest.... You can literally get M2CS/M3/M4/440i Convertible for the same price as Z4....
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:45 PM
  #732  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
i am not even going to debate on this. we have all sat in Toyota and BMWs, we can just make our own judgement in terms of Quality.


Reliability, that is obvious. That has been the primary reason for people to buy Toyota anyway.




Originally Posted by Legend2TL View Post
a colleague of my wife's has been a BMW tech working on thousands of bimmer's since the mid 70's. He says this decade they've made great strides in reliability and durability. Worst decade he says is the 2000's.


That's your opinion but it's also not a fact and virtually impossible to put a metric or parameter on.
The second statement is what Ferrari engineering used on Montezemolo when he took over Ferrari in 1991, and Luca's disappointment in recent road Ferrari's.
Luca berated the engineers and senior staff comparing what Honda did with the NSX being less expensive, more reliable and better performance than the 348.
There's many great examples where designs had the trifecta of design (cost/reliability/performance), the F-16 is one.

Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-03-2019 at 01:49 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:28 PM
  #733  
Alright, alright, alright
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 12,248
Received 1,721 Likes on 1,126 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
i am not even going to debate on this. we have all sat in Toyota and BMWs, we can just make our own judgement in terms of Quality.


Reliability, that is obvious. That has been the primary reason for people to buy Toyota anyway.
Then don't debate it since very few have taken apart a BMW VANOS actuator with a leaking oil seal or looked at a shattered M5 rod bolt?
How about a Toyota coil pack (with silicone gel) or a Prius motor controller?
Surface quality (visual) is one thing, overall product quality is another dimension.

https://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/hand...on1/apr111.htm

Last edited by Legend2TL; 06-03-2019 at 02:33 PM.
Legend2TL is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:23 PM
  #734  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.

everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.



I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.

Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-03-2019 at 03:32 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:57 PM
  #735  
Alright, alright, alright
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 12,248
Received 1,721 Likes on 1,126 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.

everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.



I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.
That's the NIST definitions for quality and reliability.
As a QA head for medical devices you should already know what the definitions below for quality and reliability are and their relationship.

Reliability is "quality changing over time"

The everyday usage term "quality of a product" is loosely taken to mean its inherent degree of excellence. In industry, this is made more precise by defining quality to be "conformance to requirements at the start of use". Assuming the product specifications adequately capture customer requirements, the quality level can now be precisely measured by the fraction of units shipped that meet specifications.

A motion picture instead of a snapshot

But how many of these units still meet specifications after a week of operation? Or after a month, or at the end of a one year warranty period? That is where "reliability" comes in. Quality is a snapshot at the start of life and reliability is a motion picture of the day-by-day operation. Time zero defects are manufacturing mistakes that escaped final test. The additional defects that appear over time are "reliability defects" or reliability fallout.

The quality level might be described by a single fraction defective. To describe reliability fallout a probability model that describes the fraction fallout over time is needed. This is known as the life distribution model.
It seems like your confusing quality with luxury or performance with your statement on sitting in a BMW and a Toyota or it's infotainment system comparisons.

Last edited by Legend2TL; 06-03-2019 at 07:01 PM.
Legend2TL is offline  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:15 PM
  #736  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Yes i do know and as i said it is basically what i have been saying: Reliability is tested over time, which is never the topic of the discussion.

How can you have Luxury or performance without quality?

anyways... back to Supra
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:22 AM
  #737  
Alright, alright, alright
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 12,248
Received 1,721 Likes on 1,126 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
Yes i do know and as i said it is basically what i have been saying: Reliability is tested over time, which is never the topic of the discussion.

How can you have Luxury or performance without quality?

anyways... back to Supra
Where have you said that? The only reference is what I linked from NIST for their definition.

As for the second statement, that's easy think Ferrari early/mid 1990's, MB 1990's, BMW 2000's, Audi 1980's to 2000's, Porsche 1990's, Range Rovers 2000-current,...

Remember according to NIST
Reliability is "quality changing over time"
something anyone whose owned a Range Rover can attest to

Still wonder how the BMW Supra will fare over time, but suspect it'll be OK maybe not Toyota TPS good.
Legend2TL is offline  
Old 06-04-2019, 12:35 PM
  #738  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL View Post
Where have you said that? The only reference is what I linked from NIST for their definition.

As for the second statement, that's easy think Ferrari early/mid 1990's, MB 1990's, BMW 2000's, Audi 1980's to 2000's, Porsche 1990's, Range Rovers 2000-current,...

Remember according to NIST something anyone whose owned a Range Rover can attest to

Still wonder how the BMW Supra will fare over time, but suspect it'll be OK maybe not Toyota TPS good.
How many times have i said Quality and reliability are not the same thing? or Toyota is reliable? Maybe i did not spell it out, that was pretty obvious.

To quote you:
Quality is a snapshot at the start of life and reliability is a motion picture of the day-by-day operation.
I was saying BMW is 1 or 2 levels above in terms of quality. And Toyota is more reliable (arguably). I see 0 issue what what i said and it basically is exactly what you quoted.

I would say Rolls Royce, Bentley or Range Rover are some of the best quality cars. The engineering, craftsmanship and attention to details are next to none. But they are unreliable as shit....why? i dont know. Maybe their focus was never about reliability.

Just because you have good quality stuff =/= reliability, but if you have shit quality stuff = 100% unreliable

As far as Supra. I think it will be about the same as Z4... suspension tuning is not going to affect reliability much and B58 whether it is 335hp or 380hp, it is a proven engine based on N55. ZF8 is ZF8, the best auto tranny on the market.
As always, it is the electronics that Toyota owners will have to worry about in long term.

Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-04-2019 at 12:39 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-06-2019, 01:38 PM
  #739  
Ex-OEM King
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 5,959
Received 1,752 Likes on 1,197 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.

everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.



I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.
orly? I also do med device but in R&D.

Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
How many times have i said Quality and reliability are not the same thing? or Toyota is reliable? Maybe i did not spell it out, that was pretty obvious.

To quote you:

I was saying BMW is 1 or 2 levels above in terms of quality. And Toyota is more reliable (arguably). I see 0 issue what what i said and it basically is exactly what you quoted.

I would say Rolls Royce, Bentley or Range Rover are some of the best quality cars. The engineering, craftsmanship and attention to details are next to none. But they are unreliable as shit....why? i dont know. Maybe their focus was never about reliability.

Just because you have good quality stuff =/= reliability, but if you have shit quality stuff = 100% unreliable

As far as Supra. I think it will be about the same as Z4... suspension tuning is not going to affect reliability much and B58 whether it is 335hp or 380hp, it is a proven engine based on N55. ZF8 is ZF8, the best auto tranny on the market.
As always, it is the electronics that Toyota owners will have to worry about in long term.
I think the issue is what you're defining as quality should include reliability in the definition. "Quality" is an arbitrary definition of a product. A reliable, long lasting, low defect rate product is often seen as "quality" over a sub par product. For example, are Red Wing boots (~$300) a quality product? Absolutely. Are Viberg boots (~$750) a quality product? Absolutely. The point is that they are both long lasting, low defect rate products and, beyond the initial expense, one does not cost more to maintain and run than the other.

I would say that RR, Bentley, and RR are LUXURY products using high quality MATERIALS but aren't, overall, a high quality product. I would agree that the craftsmanship and attention to detail are fantastic but the engineering is, for the parts not owned by other companies at least, not the best which is why they are considered unreliable. Reliability is a hallmark of exceptional engineering. I will say though that the biggest reason that these luxury cars cost so much to run is just because the labor and parts are more expensive. It has very little, at least in modern times, to do with the overall reliability of the car. Modern luxury cars don't really have the same big ticket issues like VANOS actuators, rod bearing issues, IMS failures, head bolt failures, etc. The issue is that when you need a new water pump it is, for some reason, an $800 part and $1000 in labor vs a $200 part and $300 in labor for something like a Toyota.
SamDoe1 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
F23A4 (06-06-2019)
Old 06-06-2019, 01:43 PM
  #740  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
orly? I also do med device but in R&D.



I think the issue is what you're defining as quality should include reliability in the definition. "Quality" is an arbitrary definition of a product. A reliable, long lasting, low defect rate product is often seen as "quality" over a sub par product. For example, are Red Wing boots (~$300) a quality product? Absolutely. Are Viberg boots (~$750) a quality product? Absolutely. The point is that they are both long lasting, low defect rate products and, beyond the initial expense, one does not cost more to maintain and run than the other.

I would say that RR, Bentley, and RR are LUXURY products using high quality MATERIALS but aren't, overall, a high quality product. I would agree that the craftsmanship and attention to detail are fantastic but the engineering is, for the parts not owned by other companies at least, not the best which is why they are considered unreliable. Reliability is a hallmark of exceptional engineering. I will say though that the biggest reason that these luxury cars cost so much to run is just because the labor and parts are more expensive. It has very little, at least in modern times, to do with the overall reliability of the car. Modern luxury cars don't really have the same big ticket issues like VANOS actuators, rod bearing issues, IMS failures, head bolt failures, etc. The issue is that when you need a new water pump it is, for some reason, an $800 part and $1000 in labor vs a $200 part and $300 in labor for something like a Toyota.

Pm me your company's name we might be a supplier to you
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-19-2019, 05:12 PM
  #741  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Dont know what kind of Dyno the Z4 was on... So it might not even be a relevant comparison if it ran on a different type of Dyno than the Supra. (339 HP and 427 lb-ft of torque)
But just FYI....

I thought Z4 was RWD... why was it on an AWD Dyno?

Some people say the high torque # on the Z4 (as well as the Supra) is due to the run was done in 5th gear...
I just drove the M340i, which uses the same engine... no, the car did not feel like it had 420+torque at the wheel at 3k rpm..






https://g29.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1621271

Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-19-2019 at 05:23 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:11 AM
  #742  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts
Maybe the AWD dyno due to BMW-nannies that panic if they only see wheel motion on one end?

I know the W205 has a 'secret' menu that actually has a diagnostic setting to allow for dyno use, maybe BMW has something similar
00TL-P3.2 is offline  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:08 PM
  #743  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
No idea... but if the Front has no power... shouldnt the front wheels stay still?
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:03 PM
  #744  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts

I know little about how a dyno functions. Maybe a speed match function for the non-driven axle?
00TL-P3.2 is offline  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:19 AM
  #745  
Ex-OEM King
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 5,959
Received 1,752 Likes on 1,197 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
No idea... but if the Front has no power... shouldnt the front wheels stay still?
Yes.

I thought most cars have a dyno mode to deal with things like this. Otherwise it would cause the traction control to flip out.
SamDoe1 is offline  
Old 07-06-2019, 12:52 PM
  #746  
Senior Moderator
 
F23A4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Age: 51
Posts: 16,498
Received 491 Likes on 327 Posts
Hmmmm!

F23A4 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Costco (07-06-2019)
Old 07-06-2019, 03:31 PM
  #747  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 27,619
Received 2,242 Likes on 1,334 Posts
wHy DiD thEy GiVe tHe sUpRa a WeaKeR eNgiNe

tHeY'rE bAsIcAllY tHe SaMe ExAcT cAr
Costco is offline  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:49 AM
  #748  
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Age: 39
Posts: 43
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Costco View Post
wHy DiD thEy GiVe tHe sUpRa a WeaKeR eNgiNe

tHeY'rE bAsIcAllY tHe SaMe ExAcT cAr
It's not a "weaker" engine it's just advertised as weaker. If you watch the vid you can see that the Supra wins from a stop x2 and a rolling start. Yes the lighter weight helps it but it beats the Z4 at the launch, from a dig, and the upper end. I think this powertrain is going to be a modder's dream.
Rmsanger is offline  
The following users liked this post:
F23A4 (07-07-2019)
Old 07-07-2019, 09:01 PM
  #749  
Registered Member
 
oonowindoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,746
Received 2,579 Likes on 1,805 Posts
Are those the EU version? Just FYI the US version Z4 has a lot more power than the EU ones due to smog regulations.....
with only 5 more hp and being a convertible... i would be surprised if the EU Z4 actually won...

Yes it is hard to believe that for once US gets the better end of the stick...

https://www.thedrive.com/news/28843/...-out-drag-race

Last edited by oonowindoo; 07-07-2019 at 09:09 PM.
oonowindoo is offline  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:00 AM
  #750  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts
CarThrottle dynoed a UK-spec Supra & got 375/410 out of it.

00TL-P3.2 is offline  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:29 PM
  #751  
Registered Member
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 33
Posts: 11,900
Received 1,645 Likes on 1,212 Posts
https://jalopnik.com/here-come-the-b...sup-1836375458

The first few examples of the new 2020 Toyota Supra are starting to hit the car lots and, as with any hotly anticipated new car, that means one thing: the dealers are thirsty.

So far, what we’ve seen isn’t as egregious as the infamous markups on the Dodge Challenger Hellcat and Demon models, or the Honda Civic Type R when it first launched. But there are a few examples out there and we fully expect to see more. If you’re a prospective Supra buyer, you better bring your A-game to the negotiating table, or at least be prepared to travel for the best deal.

First, Motor1 reported that at least one dealership—Jerry’s Toyota in Baltimore—had a Launch Edition Supra listed at $100,000last week. Though the listing has since been removed for unknown reasons, you can see the attached screenshot as proof.

I found at least one other super-marked up Supra so far too, a car at Jeff Wyler Toyota of Clarksville, Indianalisted for sale at $84,814. That’s about a $30,000 increase over your average Supra, which starts around $50,000. The car has few options and generally should max out around $60,000. But dealers want their slice of the pie too, so expect some big markups early on.

A quick search on Cars.com and AutoTrader reveals that most Supras for sale right now are in fact listed at fairly normal prices. But given how this always goes with in-demand sports cars, I’m confident more steep markups will be on their way.

As Autoblog also reports, the folks at the Supra MKVforum have been tracking U.S. dealers without markups, so that thread is a good resource if you’re shopping. But as our own Tom McParland has written, there’s not much you can do about these markups besides shop elsewhere:

The answer is simple—the automakers can’t control what their dealers sell the car for. A lot of people forget that within MSRP is the word “suggested,” meaning the automaker suggests that the dealer sell that car for the posted price. Where you have more demand than inventory, dealers are going to try to maximize their position use markups.

While I understand the frustration, what people need to keep in mind is that markups happen because there are some people that are willing to pay them. It doesn’t matter if the car is a Porsche 911 GT3 or something “normal” like a Hyundai Kona EV. However, if every potential buyer said “Screw that, I’m not paying a markup.” prices will come down.

00TL-P3.2 is offline  
 
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
krava
Third Generation RLX (2013+)
4
12-17-2018 01:12 PM
Legend2TL
Ramblings
4
12-15-2018 02:16 PM
NSXNEXT
Ramblings
26
12-15-2018 12:25 PM
Legend2TL
Ramblings
4
12-11-2018 07:29 AM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Toyota: Supra News


Contact Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.