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I struggle to think of any cars that are quite like the supra on the market. The muscle cars like the mustang and camaro, while fast, aren't exactly light compared to the supra. They also don't seem to be as fun to drive as the new supra. The new Supra seems to be getting really good reviews regarding it's driving fun.
I think it's always difficult to make a successor to a legendary car. The MK 4 supra was launched in 1992? That's almost 3 decades ago and so comparison will also be unfair either way. For the most part I feel like Toyota has stuck with the original formula as much as possible while modernizing the car.
I imagine the Supra/Z4 would be more liveable as a DD, but the GT350 more fun.
I wouldn't daily any of them. And who cares about livability, roll the windows down and wind it up.
Any car that needs a "quiet start" mode from the factory deserves an automatic buy recommendation from me. Apparently one of the Ford execs had a GT350 and his neighbors complained that his car was too loud in the morning, guessing he likely lived in some posh area. So he came to work one day and said that car needed a quiet start mode because of that.
What about getting a Toyota with BMW quality? Because that's what you're actually getting.
Also, no they won't be cross shopped much but at a similar price point I know where my money is going.
Or a BMW finally built to Toyota standards:
But then as development proceeded into next phases I was comforted when I saw there were later stages where Toyota would be the exact opposite, and BMW couldn't believe how extensive some of our quality and efficiency studies were as parts came into shape one by one. We would take every bit down to a fastener or rivet, and put it through our stringent quality control and a dozen other testing, we'd ship thousands of parts back to Japan for analysis. That is normal to us. Each piece we test at our level, they were now the ones surprised.
Toyota may have had input into the quality standards but the car is still manufactured on a BMW assembly line using BMW parts for damn near everything. I have no doubts that the body panels, screws, and rivets will be just fine but I'd be more concerned about the engine, suspension, transmission, drivetrain, electronics, etc that are all straight out of the BMW parts bin. They aren't going to 100% change their quality system for one car model, that's an effort that would take years and lots of money to incorporate Toyota quality systems into a company like BMW. That said, modern BMW's aren't bad in terms of reliability anyway, just the cost to maintain them is high. Wonder if you can just take that brand new Z4 to a Toyota dealership for service...
Edit: Apparently the car is made on a contract assembly line with a bunch of other models from other makes. That's not better.
Cuz i can tell you everything BMW uses is 1 or 2 levels above Toyota in term of quality. The infotainment system in the Supra is at least 2 Generation ahead of anything Toyota/Lexus has on the market right now.. But, reliability? Sure...
You gotta pay to play is true in every industry... you want a car that cost 50k that does 0-60 under 4 secs and you want best of the best reliability.........something has to give... so the question is do you want the price to be higher? sacrifice in performance and sacrifice some reliability?
Now i see just as many as Older BMW on the road as Toyota... sometimes i even question why they are on the road... but they are.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-31-2019 at 01:48 PM.
Toyota may have had input into the quality standards but the car is still manufactured on a BMW assembly line using BMW parts for damn near everything. I have no doubts that the body panels, screws, and rivets will be just fine but I'd be more concerned about the engine, suspension, transmission, drivetrain, electronics, etc that are all straight out of the BMW parts bin. They aren't going to 100% change their quality system for one car model, that's an effort that would take years and lots of money to incorporate Toyota quality systems into a company like BMW. That said, modern BMW's aren't bad in terms of reliability anyway, just the cost to maintain them is high. Wonder if you can just take that brand new Z4 to a Toyota dealership for service...
Edit: Apparently the car is made on a contract assembly line with a bunch of other models from other makes. That's not better.
a colleague of my wife's has been a BMW tech working on thousands of bimmer's since the mid 70's. He says this decade they've made great strides in reliability and durability. Worst decade he says is the 2000's.
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
are we talking about quality or reliability?
Cuz i can tell you everything BMW uses is 1 or 2 levels above Toyota in term of quality. The infotainment system in the Supra is at least 2 Generation ahead of anything Toyota/Lexus has on the market right now.. But, reliability? Sure...
You gotta pay to play is true in every industry... you want a car that cost 50k that does 0-60 under 4 secs and you want best of the best reliability.........something has to give... so the question is do you want the price to be higher? sacrifice in performance and sacrifice some reliability?
Now i see just as many as Older BMW on the road as Toyota... sometimes i even question why they are on the road... but they are.
That's your opinion but it's also not a fact and virtually impossible to put a metric or parameter on.
The second statement is what Ferrari engineering used on Montezemolo when he took over Ferrari in 1991, and Luca's disappointment in recent road Ferrari's.
Luca berated the engineers and senior staff comparing what Honda did with the NSX being less expensive, more reliable and better performance than the 348.
There's many great examples where designs had the trifecta of design (cost/reliability/performance), the F-16 is one.
Is it? maybe... same shit... at those prices, i dont think BMW will sell many to be honest.... You can literally get M2CS/M3/M4/440i Convertible for the same price as Z4....
i am not even going to debate on this. we have all sat in Toyota and BMWs, we can just make our own judgement in terms of Quality.
Reliability, that is obvious. That has been the primary reason for people to buy Toyota anyway.
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
a colleague of my wife's has been a BMW tech working on thousands of bimmer's since the mid 70's. He says this decade they've made great strides in reliability and durability. Worst decade he says is the 2000's.
That's your opinion but it's also not a fact and virtually impossible to put a metric or parameter on.
The second statement is what Ferrari engineering used on Montezemolo when he took over Ferrari in 1991, and Luca's disappointment in recent road Ferrari's.
Luca berated the engineers and senior staff comparing what Honda did with the NSX being less expensive, more reliable and better performance than the 348.
There's many great examples where designs had the trifecta of design (cost/reliability/performance), the F-16 is one.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-03-2019 at 01:49 PM.
i am not even going to debate on this. we have all sat in Toyota and BMWs, we can just make our own judgement in terms of Quality.
Reliability, that is obvious. That has been the primary reason for people to buy Toyota anyway.
Then don't debate it since very few have taken apart a BMW VANOS actuator with a leaking oil seal or looked at a shattered M5 rod bolt?
How about a Toyota coil pack (with silicone gel) or a Prius motor controller?
Surface quality (visual) is one thing, overall product quality is another dimension.
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.
everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.
I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-03-2019 at 03:32 PM.
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.
everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.
I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.
That's the NIST definitions for quality and reliability.
As a QA head for medical devices you should already know what the definitions below for quality and reliability are and their relationship.
Reliability is "quality changing over time"
The everyday usage term "quality of a product" is loosely taken to mean its inherent degree of excellence. In industry, this is made more precise by defining quality to be "conformance to requirements at the start of use". Assuming the product specifications adequately capture customer requirements, the quality level can now be precisely measured by the fraction of units shipped that meet specifications.
A motion picture instead of a snapshot
But how many of these units still meet specifications after a week of operation? Or after a month, or at the end of a one year warranty period? That is where "reliability" comes in. Quality is a snapshot at the start of life and reliability is a motion picture of the day-by-day operation. Time zero defects are manufacturing mistakes that escaped final test. The additional defects that appear over time are "reliability defects" or reliability fallout.
The quality level might be described by a single fraction defective. To describe reliability fallout a probability model that describes the fraction fallout over time is needed. This is known as the life distribution model.
It seems like your confusing quality with luxury or performance with your statement on sitting in a BMW and a Toyota or it's infotainment system comparisons.
Yes i do know and as i said it is basically what i have been saying: Reliability is tested over time, which is never the topic of the discussion.
How can you have Luxury or performance without quality?
anyways... back to Supra
Where have you said that? The only reference is what I linked from NIST for their definition.
As for the second statement, that's easy think Ferrari early/mid 1990's, MB 1990's, BMW 2000's, Audi 1980's to 2000's, Porsche 1990's, Range Rovers 2000-current,...
Remember according to NIST
Reliability is "quality changing over time"
something anyone whose owned a Range Rover can attest to
Still wonder how the BMW Supra will fare over time, but suspect it'll be OK maybe not Toyota TPS good.
Where have you said that? The only reference is what I linked from NIST for their definition.
As for the second statement, that's easy think Ferrari early/mid 1990's, MB 1990's, BMW 2000's, Audi 1980's to 2000's, Porsche 1990's, Range Rovers 2000-current,...
Remember according to NIST something anyone whose owned a Range Rover can attest to
Still wonder how the BMW Supra will fare over time, but suspect it'll be OK maybe not Toyota TPS good.
How many times have i said Quality and reliability are not the same thing? or Toyota is reliable? Maybe i did not spell it out, that was pretty obvious.
To quote you:
Quality is a snapshot at the start of life and reliability is a motion picture of the day-by-day operation.
I was saying BMW is 1 or 2 levels above in terms of quality. And Toyota is more reliable (arguably). I see 0 issue what what i said and it basically is exactly what you quoted.
I would say Rolls Royce, Bentley or Range Rover are some of the best quality cars. The engineering, craftsmanship and attention to details are next to none. But they are unreliable as shit....why? i dont know. Maybe their focus was never about reliability.
Just because you have good quality stuff =/= reliability, but if you have shit quality stuff = 100% unreliable
As far as Supra. I think it will be about the same as Z4... suspension tuning is not going to affect reliability much and B58 whether it is 335hp or 380hp, it is a proven engine based on N55. ZF8 is ZF8, the best auto tranny on the market.
As always, it is the electronics that Toyota owners will have to worry about in long term.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-04-2019 at 12:39 PM.
product quality and reliability are 2 different things... just because you use high quality stuff doesn't necessarily mean better reliability .... or just because you dont use the best quality stuff doesn't mean your reliability will suffer.
everything you said is about reliability and i already said Toyota is known for its reliability.
I am not sure what that link is for but it basically stated the same thing as what i have been saying.
Quality is my profession. I was HR for 7 years and now head of QA for a medical device company for the past 3 years. So i do know a thing or 2 about Quality related topics.
orly? I also do med device but in R&D.
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
How many times have i said Quality and reliability are not the same thing? or Toyota is reliable? Maybe i did not spell it out, that was pretty obvious.
To quote you:
I was saying BMW is 1 or 2 levels above in terms of quality. And Toyota is more reliable (arguably). I see 0 issue what what i said and it basically is exactly what you quoted.
I would say Rolls Royce, Bentley or Range Rover are some of the best quality cars. The engineering, craftsmanship and attention to details are next to none. But they are unreliable as shit....why? i dont know. Maybe their focus was never about reliability.
Just because you have good quality stuff =/= reliability, but if you have shit quality stuff = 100% unreliable
As far as Supra. I think it will be about the same as Z4... suspension tuning is not going to affect reliability much and B58 whether it is 335hp or 380hp, it is a proven engine based on N55. ZF8 is ZF8, the best auto tranny on the market.
As always, it is the electronics that Toyota owners will have to worry about in long term.
I think the issue is what you're defining as quality should include reliability in the definition. "Quality" is an arbitrary definition of a product. A reliable, long lasting, low defect rate product is often seen as "quality" over a sub par product. For example, are Red Wing boots (~$300) a quality product? Absolutely. Are Viberg boots (~$750) a quality product? Absolutely. The point is that they are both long lasting, low defect rate products and, beyond the initial expense, one does not cost more to maintain and run than the other.
I would say that RR, Bentley, and RR are LUXURY products using high quality MATERIALS but aren't, overall, a high quality product. I would agree that the craftsmanship and attention to detail are fantastic but the engineering is, for the parts not owned by other companies at least, not the best which is why they are considered unreliable. Reliability is a hallmark of exceptional engineering. I will say though that the biggest reason that these luxury cars cost so much to run is just because the labor and parts are more expensive. It has very little, at least in modern times, to do with the overall reliability of the car. Modern luxury cars don't really have the same big ticket issues like VANOS actuators, rod bearing issues, IMS failures, head bolt failures, etc. The issue is that when you need a new water pump it is, for some reason, an $800 part and $1000 in labor vs a $200 part and $300 in labor for something like a Toyota.
I think the issue is what you're defining as quality should include reliability in the definition. "Quality" is an arbitrary definition of a product. A reliable, long lasting, low defect rate product is often seen as "quality" over a sub par product. For example, are Red Wing boots (~$300) a quality product? Absolutely. Are Viberg boots (~$750) a quality product? Absolutely. The point is that they are both long lasting, low defect rate products and, beyond the initial expense, one does not cost more to maintain and run than the other.
I would say that RR, Bentley, and RR are LUXURY products using high quality MATERIALS but aren't, overall, a high quality product. I would agree that the craftsmanship and attention to detail are fantastic but the engineering is, for the parts not owned by other companies at least, not the best which is why they are considered unreliable. Reliability is a hallmark of exceptional engineering. I will say though that the biggest reason that these luxury cars cost so much to run is just because the labor and parts are more expensive. It has very little, at least in modern times, to do with the overall reliability of the car. Modern luxury cars don't really have the same big ticket issues like VANOS actuators, rod bearing issues, IMS failures, head bolt failures, etc. The issue is that when you need a new water pump it is, for some reason, an $800 part and $1000 in labor vs a $200 part and $300 in labor for something like a Toyota.
Pm me your company's name we might be a supplier to you
Dont know what kind of Dyno the Z4 was on... So it might not even be a relevant comparison if it ran on a different type of Dyno than the Supra. (339 HP and 427 lb-ft of torque)
But just FYI....
I thought Z4 was RWD... why was it on an AWD Dyno?
Some people say the high torque # on the Z4 (as well as the Supra) is due to the run was done in 5th gear...
I just drove the M340i, which uses the same engine... no, the car did not feel like it had 420+torque at the wheel at 3k rpm..
It's not a "weaker" engine it's just advertised as weaker. If you watch the vid you can see that the Supra wins from a stop x2 and a rolling start. Yes the lighter weight helps it but it beats the Z4 at the launch, from a dig, and the upper end. I think this powertrain is going to be a modder's dream.
Are those the EU version? Just FYI the US version Z4 has a lot more power than the EU ones due to smog regulations.....
with only 5 more hp and being a convertible... i would be surprised if the EU Z4 actually won...
Yes it is hard to believe that for once US gets the better end of the stick...
The first few examples of the new 2020 Toyota Supra are starting to hit the car lots and, as with any hotly anticipated new car, that means one thing: the dealers are thirsty.
So far, what we’ve seen isn’t as egregious as the infamous markups on the Dodge Challenger Hellcat and Demon models, or the Honda Civic Type R when it first launched. But there are a few examples out there and we fully expect to see more. If you’re a prospective Supra buyer, you better bring your A-game to the negotiating table, or at least be prepared to travel for the best deal.
First, Motor1 reported that at least one dealership—Jerry’s Toyota in Baltimore—had a Launch Edition Supra listed at $100,000last week. Though the listing has since been removed for unknown reasons, you can see the attached screenshot as proof.
I found at least one other super-marked up Supra so far too, a car at Jeff Wyler Toyota of Clarksville, Indianalisted for sale at $84,814. That’s about a $30,000 increase over your average Supra, which starts around $50,000. The car has few options and generally should max out around $60,000. But dealers want their slice of the pie too, so expect some big markups early on.
A quick search on Cars.com and AutoTrader reveals that most Supras for sale right now are in fact listed at fairly normal prices. But given how this always goes with in-demand sports cars, I’m confident more steep markups will be on their way.
The answer is simple—the automakers can’t control what their dealers sell the car for. A lot of people forget that within MSRP is the word “suggested,” meaning the automaker suggests that the dealer sell that car for the posted price. Where you have more demand than inventory, dealers are going to try to maximize their position use markups.
While I understand the frustration, what people need to keep in mind is that markups happen because there are some people that are willing to pay them. It doesn’t matter if the car is a Porsche 911 GT3 or something “normal” like a Hyundai Kona EV. However, if every potential buyer said “Screw that, I’m not paying a markup.” prices will come down.
Anyone have any idea when the non-launch edition models will be getting the red interior option? I'm ready to pull the trigger on a black one with red interior once you're able to get a premium for at or below MSRP.
I went to my local dealership and they were not very helpful.
Anyone have any idea when the non-launch edition models will be getting the red interior option? I'm ready to pull the trigger on a black one with red interior once you're able to get a premium for at or below MSRP.
I went to my local dealership and they were not very helpful.
Looking on cars.com, there are already dealerships selling the launch edition for below MSRP, you just have to be willing to travel.
Anyone have any idea when the non-launch edition models will be getting the red interior option? I'm ready to pull the trigger on a black one with red interior once you're able to get a premium for at or below MSRP.
I went to my local dealership and they were not very helpful.
You keeping the taco?? let me know if you get one!
Looking on cars.com, there are already dealerships selling the launch edition for below MSRP, you just have to be willing to travel.
I thought the same thing. I called a couple and they all said they had a market adjustment. Local dealer has the exact spec I want, but with a 30k markup. I really don't want a launch edition though. I would rather save the couple thousand bucks. I'm also not a fan of the red mirrors.
From what I can gather so far, I may not get the combo I want until a mid model refresh. I guess they want to keep the red interior exclusive to the launch editions models for now. I've always had to settle for whatever reason in all my prior cars and told myself this time I was going to wait it out. Especially since I'm going to be dropping 50k+. I'm fine with even special ordering and paying near MSRP.
Originally Posted by SHYUperman
You keeping the taco?? let me know if you get one!
I'm not quite sure on that yet. I still owe 15k on it and the appraised trade in value is a little over 32k. Financially I can swing having both, but I'm thinking I will most likely get rid of it.
You don’t need us to tell you that the new Toyota Supra has massively split opinion in the motoring world. Many are thankful that we’ve got a new straight-six sports car from Toyota to carry on the lineage. Others can’t come to terms with the fact that it’s a BMW at heart.
One thing that could please the naysayers, though, is a manual gearbox to replace the current eight-speed automatic. Whilst it doesn’t look like one is in the pipeline from Toyota itself, Texan tuner European Auto Group (EAG) will soon have the answer.
You may remember EAG from its decision to fit a dozen or so Ferrari 458 Italias with a six-speed manual, and now they’re answering the calls of the Internet once again.
The Supra will also receive the same treatment, apparently for a cost of around $12,000 (£9,900), according to Carbuzz. Once you’ve supplied EAG with the donor car that is. And, whisper it, the parts for the ‘box will all come from BMW, too.
Despite that, it should please the purists who want a bit more involvement to match their standard 335bhp and 369lb ft of torque – whether it’s Japanese or not. Plus, a manual gearbox will mean the removal of the BMW gear selector, among the most obvious of the German parts in the Mk5 Supra’s cabin.
Majority of people asking for a manual Supra cannot even afford one. My favorite is when you meet someone who says "If (insert expensive sports car) came in a manual, it would be in my driveway right now". Yeah I'm sure you would have it in your driveway and not your (insert random car that costs under 10k).
Majority of people asking for a manual Supra cannot even afford one. My favorite is when you meet someone who says "If (insert expensive sports car) came in a manual, it would be in my driveway right now". Yeah I'm sure you would have it in your driveway and not your (insert random car that costs under 10k).
And on reddit people are ranting and raving about how Supra has no manual and then turn around and worship the ground that the C8 is on even though one of the most iconic sports cars of history/time/world will no longer have a manual...
05-29-2019, 11:25 AM
a colleague of my wife's has been a BMW tech working on thousands of bimmer's since the mid 70's. He says this decade they've made great strides in reliability and durability. Worst decade he says is the 2000's.
Then don't debate it since very few have taken apart a BMW VANOS actuator with a leaking oil seal or looked at a shattered M5 rod bolt?
