North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**

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Old 05-07-2009, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=azVYi8YEXsAc


Was tempted to post this in the Obamanomics thread, but suppose it will have a wider audience here. Our nation is built on the rule of law, and when an administration subverts the rule of law to satisfy favored constituents and politicizes what should be a clear following of bankruptcy code - this is truly an astounding step into autocracy.
And condoning torture against our own rule of law wasn't a step toward autocracy for the Bushies, or suppressing dissent on climate change, or many other things I could list. PUHLEEEZE. All Presidents do things that their opponents automatically decry as autocratic. But that's an argument for another thread in R&P.
Old 05-07-2009, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by neuronbob
PUHLEEEZE. All Presidents do things that their opponents automatically decry as autocratic.

Hmmm, sounds to me like you're already becoming an apologist for the man in the cape. It's always dangerous to generalize when you poo-poo talk of perverting the rule of law, which is very clear in this case.

Anywhoo, I suppose we won't hear any more UAW slogans of "Buy American" when the taxpayers are writing off a big subsidy to the United States of Italy.
Old 05-07-2009, 11:01 PM
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Post GM posts $6 billion first quarter loss

Ouch.

From Motor Authority...

GM is now less than a month away from its June 1 restructuring deadline imposed by President Obama’s auto industry task force, but any signs that it’s on the path to becoming viable may be a little hard to find considering the carmaker has just announced a $6 billion loss for the first quarter of 2009. Once again citing global economic pressures and low sales as the primary reasons for the loss, GM is using the result to highlight the importance of its most recent viability plan in turning around its fortunes.

"Our first quarter results underscore the importance of executing GM’s revised viability plan, which goes further and faster to lower our break-even point," said GM CEO Fritz Henderson. "It’s focused on taking care of customers every single day, winning with four core brands, and investing in new products and technology, while at the same time accelerating actions to lower our cost structure to return GM to profitability quickly."

The loss of $6 billion equates to roughly $9.78 per share and is down on the $3.3 billion loss for the same period one year ago. At the same time, revenues fell from $42.4 billion in the first quarter of 2008 to $22.4 billion this year. The drop in revenue was primarily due to GM’s production volume decline of 903,000 units, or approximately 40%, on a global basis year-over-year. However, industry wide sales saw a decline of almost 21% over the past year.

GM also said it burned through $10.2 billion in cash, while being supported by $13.4 billion in government funded loans in the quarter and an additional $2 billion since. By contrast, Ford only posted a $1.4 billion loss and mananged to increase its cash reserves from $13.4 billion to $21.3 billion.

The carmaker is now racing to beat its June 1 deadline to restructure and is in the process of selling its low-performance brands, including Hummer, Saturn and Saab, as well as attempting to secure deals with the UAW and bondholders to reduce its debt.
http://www.motorauthority.com/gm-pos...rter-loss.html
Old 05-07-2009, 11:07 PM
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Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne to head Chrysler after restructuring

From Motor Authority...

Less than a week out from the announcement of a global strategic alliance between Fiat and Chrysler comes news today that Sergio Marchionne will play the role of CEO for both carmakers. It was thought that Fiat, together with President Obama’s auto industry task force, would pick a new board of directors for Chrysler, which would then pick a new chief, but a spokesman for Fiat has revealed today that Marchionne will take the top job.

"Marchionne will be the new chief executive of Chrysler after the procedure," a Fiat spokesman revealed to the Associated Press, referring to bankruptcy protection for Chrysler and clearance by a U.S. courts for a rescue by Fiat to go ahead. In this way, Marchionne will play a similar role to Renault-Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn as the CEO of both carmakers.

Other issues that still need to be settled, however, include who would be placed on a new Chrysler board of directors. Previous reports have suggested that there are plans to include board members from Chrysler, Fiat and even the auto industry task force.

Problems that could get in the way involve the complex ownership situation affecting Chrysler, with Chrysler's debtholders and the UAW involved in difficult negotiations on how to administer the company.
http://www.motorauthority.com/restru...inted-ceo.html
Old 05-08-2009, 12:06 AM
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AFAIK, Fiats are not considered to be considerably good cars in Europe. Should we be excited that a crappy American manufacturer is merging with a crappy Italian manufacturer?
Old 05-08-2009, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23
AFAIK, Fiats are not considered to be considerably good cars in Europe. Should we be excited that a crappy American manufacturer is merging with a crappy Italian manufacturer?
Some folks may think that Fiat makes crappy cars but they are not losing money - and that's the issue at this point.

The GM numbers are just incredible and for the taxpayer it's just going to get worse once further details of how much of a money pit GM really is.
Old 05-08-2009, 05:53 AM
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I rented a Buick Allure while my Pathfinder was in the shop recently and it was offal. The inside looked like it was made of plastic impregnated tripe and designed in the 70's. The windshield had visible ripples like a cheap fishbowl.

That is the real crisis: the average GM (and obviously Chrysler) car is worse than the cheapest import econoboxes. I can't imagine Fiat making a worse car.
Old 05-08-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
Anywhoo, I suppose we won't hear any more UAW slogans of "Buy American" when the taxpayers are writing off a big subsidy to the United States of Italy.
I actually agree in part with your sentiment here. What exactly IS an American car?

My CTS-V is not 100% U.S. content though final assembly is in the U.S.. The engine is built in a Chevy factory in Silao, Mexico, for example.

My 3G TL was built in Ohio with 70% North American content. The biggest foreign component, the tranny, was from Japan. Same with my 2G TL, only the Japanese-built tranny was a piece of $hit as VERY well documented on this site.

Will a Fiat built in the U.S. be an American car?

As far as the Fiat chair being the CEO of Chrysler, doesn't this sound like DaimlerChrysler all over again? Are we forgetting how that worked out? My opinion is that Chrysler should go away period, it's done.
Old 05-08-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JD23
AFAIK, Fiats are not considered to be considerably good cars in Europe. Should we be excited that a crappy American manufacturer is merging with a crappy Italian manufacturer?
Also my sentiment. And a lot of people will tell you that the ugliest cars on the road in Europe are almost always Fiats. So yeah, I'm not jumping up and down about this deal just yet.
Old 05-08-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by neuronbob

.....

As far as the Fiat chair being the CEO of Chrysler, doesn't this sound like DaimlerChrysler all over again? Are we forgetting how that worked out? My opinion is that Chrysler should go away period, it's done.
It was so funny to watch Daimler got burnt big time with the original plan of eating up Chrysler, and eventually had to pay big money to quickly dump it.

I love to see that again with Fiat this time around.
Old 05-08-2009, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvMyTSX
Also my sentiment. And a lot of people will tell you that the ugliest cars on the road in Europe are almost always Fiats.
It makes no diff if they make cars uglier that an Aztec - if they sell and can make a profit that's good enough. At this point Fiat is doing that and hopefully they can do that with Chrysler.
Old 05-08-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by biker
It makes no diff if they make cars uglier that an Aztec - if they sell and can make a profit that's good enough. At this point Fiat is doing that and hopefully they can do that with Chrysler.
If they are too ugly, they won't sell enough to be profitable.
Old 05-09-2009, 05:50 AM
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Interesting take by my local paper on the pressure GM bondholders must be getting after the Chrysler bondholders folded.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...pposition.html

Excerpt:
Collapse of lenders' opposition to Chrysler bankruptcy sends message to GM creditors
by Robert Schoenberger/Plain Dealer Reporter
Friday May 08, 2009, 5:57 PM

Oppostion to Chrysler's bid to merge with Italian automaker Fiat collapsed Friday, clearing the way for a smooth bankruptcy process and sending a loud warning to General Motors creditors.

The five remaining dissident lenders gave up their court fight with Chrysler after OppenheimerFunds Inc. and Stairway Capital Management, said they were dropping out of the group because it had gotten too small to be effective.

Like those holding Chrysler debt, GM's creditors will have to decide whether to agree to sharply reduce the amount of money GM owes them or to take their own chances in court should GM also file Chapter 11.
......
So will GM end up in bankruptcy or will the bondholders succomb to the pressure of the Feds? Interesting times, indeed. I certainly never foresaw this much government involvement in the auto industry, ever. It does make me nervous for what happens the next time a big business goes sour. Do they get government involvement now prior to going into BK?
Old 05-09-2009, 05:58 AM
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I found this link on gminsidernews.com. Basically, Richard Levin, an economist on the President's Council of Advisers on science and technology, says that the optimal number of U.S. auto companies is ONE. Further, he says that the industry will shrink further internationally...

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/is..._05/levin.html

Y: On a different bailout front, what do you think about the auto companies?

L: I think the optimum number of U.S. auto companies is one. Maybe two, but certainly not three. The worldwide auto industry is going to shrink, to a Chinese firm, a Japanese firm, an Indian firm, a Korean firm, a European firm -- and an American firm, I hope, but there's a chance there will be zero U.S. auto companies if we don't do this right. There are a lot of assets in America -- technological assets, know-how, skills, and labor. But I think a managed reorganization is the right approach. The companies need to shed their legacy costs. The government can offer protection to current workers and retirees.
Comments? This guy is not on the auto task force, so his opinion doesn't matter that much, honestly. But even so...his comments hint at international nationalization of auto industry. I don't see that happening, ever. What about competition?
Old 05-09-2009, 10:57 AM
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Not going to happen regarding a nationalization of the auto industry. We have seen how well a state runs a company now imagine one as large as GM.

I also don't think that the industry itself will shrink to just one company per country. At least not anytime soon. What does scare me is that the "big 3" has some compelling choices, but they obliterated the trust any of us had 30+ years ago before some of us could drive or were even born!

Bob, I want your car I feel it would be a fun replacement for my 3G TL. In short it is the shit and I salivate when I look at your pics. The new Camaro is tits (sans the no navi option), and a G8 GXP is missing navi and HIDs from becoming a clear winner in its segment. It also doesn't help that Pontiac is going bye bye.

With that said, I really want to buy a GM car in a year or less and those three are on the top of my list. I am just scared that if I take the plunge will these cars be the same old POS that is full of problems and depreciates like an anchor when I drive it off the lot? I've owned a '02 Tahoe and an Alero both were dog shit.
Old 05-10-2009, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by biker
It makes no diff if they make cars uglier that an Aztec - if they sell and can make a profit that's good enough. At this point Fiat is doing that and hopefully they can do that with Chrysler.
We'll see if they'll be able to sell in the US, which is obviously quite different than the European market. I'm still skeptical that there is a strong US demand for tiny cars.
Old 05-10-2009, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23
We'll see if they'll be able to sell in the US, which is obviously quite different than the European market. I'm still skeptical that there is a strong US demand for tiny cars.
..... til the time the pump price hits $4+ per gallon again in the US.
Old 05-10-2009, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
..... til the time the pump price hits $4+ per gallon again in the US.
..... then once the price goes down to $2.xx people will buy big cars, trucks and SUVs again
Old 05-10-2009, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23
We'll see if they'll be able to sell in the US, which is obviously quite different than the European market. I'm still skeptical that there is a strong US demand for tiny cars.
I wasn't talking about making money off Fiats in the US - who knows if they'll sell at all. I was talking about making money off "real" Chrysler cars. If Fiat happens to sell a few of their cars in the US market fine, but the main point is to stop the financial bleeding in the mainline Chrysler business.

For example, I'd assume Chrysler is not losing money making the minivan for VW and they are not losing money on their international sales (neither is GM or Ford). With the BK out of the way they shed the legacy costs. Now they have to stop the crazy incentives that have driven the sales, make decent vehicles and sell at a level where they can make money.

Last edited by biker; 05-10-2009 at 06:57 AM.
Old 05-10-2009, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by biker
I wasn't talking about making money off Fiats in the US - who knows if they'll sell at all. I was talking about making money off "real" Chrysler cars. If Fiat happens to sell a few of their cars in the US market fine, but the main point is to stop the financial bleeding in the mainline Chrysler business.
I didn't realize that wasn't part of your argument. I have heard many people in the media praise this deal because they believe it will enable Chrysler to leverage Fiat's existing small car platforms in the US. I'm skeptical that Americans will want to buy Chrysler badged, Fiat designed subcompacts.

Chrysler did not fail only because of a disproportionate dependence on large vehicles; it failed because many of its vehicles were not competitive and it had a cost structure that made profitability nearly impossible.
Old 05-10-2009, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
..... til the time the pump price hits $4+ per gallon again in the US.
There is some middle ground between truck based SUV and 150 inch subcompact. Having a vehicle lineup that is biased far to either extreme will be dangerous.
Old 05-10-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JD23
There is some middle ground between truck based SUV and 150 inch subcompact. Having a vehicle lineup that is biased far to either extreme will be dangerous.
I don't object having a vehicle lineup that covers both hulking truck based SUV's and micro, mini sub-subcompact's. It's just when you starting talking about strong US demands of a particular vehicle size, it highly depends on the market gas pump prices.
Old 05-10-2009, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
I don't object having a vehicle lineup that covers both hulking truck based SUV's and micro, mini sub-subcompact's. It's just when you starting talking about strong US demands of a particular vehicle size, it highly depends on the market gas pump prices.
You're correct. I would just like to see Chrysler start making competitive mid-sized cars, which will sell during both periods of high and low gas prices. Chrysler's current lineup is devoid of competitive mid-size cars. The Sebring is a bad joke compared to vehicles like the Accord, Malibu, Mazda 6, and Fusion.
Old 05-11-2009, 06:49 PM
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Chrysler's sorry state revealed

Bankruptcy court filings reveal how complicated the auto business is - and just how much trouble Chrysler is in.

Among the thousands of pages of documents filed in connection with Chrysler's Chapter 11 bankruptcy are affidavits from Chrysler executives that open up a window on the auto business previously closed to outsiders in this intensely competitive business.

They reveal an almost unimaginable complexity in the design, manufacturing, and distribution of new cars.

But what's more revealing is that the affidavits expose Chrysler's inability to successfully compete and the dangers facing the company in a prolonged bankruptcy.....
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/11/auto...ex.htm?cnn=yes
Old 05-11-2009, 07:01 PM
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^^
You also begin to understand why the chances of Chrysler emerging from bankruptcy in any shape that resembles intact looks increasingly unlikely.
That's pretty much Chrysler BK in a nutshell.
Old 05-11-2009, 09:29 PM
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^^ ...and to add to my above comments...with news like this from Chrysler, it's a 100% guarantee that GM will be in BK come June.
Old 05-11-2009, 09:47 PM
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I'm wondering why there is any enthusiasm behind saving Chrysler. At this point, I don't believe they own any significant assets or brands worth saving. Furthermore, it's already been demonstrated that the US market is not large enough to support three large domestic manufacturers.
Old 05-12-2009, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23
I'm wondering why there is any enthusiasm behind saving Chrysler. At this point, I don't believe they own any significant assets or brands worth saving. Furthermore, it's already been demonstrated that the US market is not large enough to support three large domestic manufacturers.
aside from Jeep IMO which still has a strong following.

They've hardly introduced any new vehicles that are worthy of mentioning, Challenger and Grand Cherokee aside. Despite being the type of vehicle that I'm not interested in, the Malibu and upcoming Taurus are actually very nice and look like they'll be very nice, respectively.
Old 05-12-2009, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23
Furthermore, it's already been demonstrated that the US market is not large enough to support three large domestic manufacturers.
If Chrysler could whore out the platforms and drivetrains across enough of the line up (and not have legacy costs) they could survive. At this point it might be that the perception (and lots of media bashing) of the brand more than the cars/costs is what may doom them.
Old 05-12-2009, 10:01 AM
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Game over

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-sha...&asset=&ccode=

GM shares fall to 76-year low after execs dump stock
DETROIT (Reuters) - Shares of General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM - News) plunged nearly 20 percent to a 76-year low on Tuesday, a day after a group of GM executives disclosed they had sold shares in the struggling automaker.

Six GM executives, led by former GM Vice Chairman and product chief Bob Lutz, disclosed on Monday they sold almost $315,000 in stock and liquidated their remaining direct holdings in the automaker.

GM is headed for either a bankruptcy filing or an out-of- court restructuring that would wipe out current stockholders by flooding the market with new shares to pay off creditors.

The automaker's stock could be worthless in a bankruptcy or worth less than 2 cents per share if it proceeds with its plans to issue shares to creditors led by the U.S. Treasury, the company has said.

Shares of the automaker were down 21 percent, or 30 cents, to $1.14 on the New York Stock Exchange. The stock had fallen to as low as $1.09, the lowest since 1933.

(Reporting by Soyoung Kim)
Old 05-12-2009, 10:14 AM
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It's never a good sign when the execs start selling their stocks.
Old 05-12-2009, 12:06 PM
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It doesn't take a geniuos to see where GM is headed after what happened to Chrysler. Is knowing that you are headed into bankruptcy an insider trading violation?
Old 05-12-2009, 03:55 PM
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Chrysler resale values down 6 percent since bankruptcy filing

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chrysler...cy-filing.html

Chrysler resale values down 6 percent since bankruptcy filing

Chrysler has been operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection for less than two weeks now but the automaker’s resale values have already taken a tumble. Since Chrysler’s April 30th bankruptcy filing, the automaker has seen its vehicle resale values tumble by 6 percent.

According to a new report by Automotive Leasing Guide, Chrysler’s three brands – Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep – have seen a 6 percent drop in residual values across the board. Before Chrysler’s Chapter 11 filing, three-year old Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep vehicles held 34.8 percent, 37.3 percent and 38.4 percent, respectively, of their original sale price. However, since the April 30th filing, three-year old Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep vehicles have seen their values slide to just 28.8 percent, 31.2 percent and 32.4 percent of their original sale price, according to the Detroit Free Press.
In comparison, three-year old Toyotas retain 45.5 percent of their original price.
Needless to say, all Chrysler vehicles are being affected by the company’s bankruptcy filing, not just vehicles 36-months old. As a result, Chrysler-brand trade-in values are down, resulting in many consumers having to cough up a larger down payment for a new vehicle.
Chrysler hopes to emerge from bankruptcy by month’s end, but it remains to be seen how far residuals will drop before then.
Hopefully this will help Sarlacc finally get his Challenger if he decides to buy used. I'm just waiting for the opportunity to tell him to "post pics damnit", for which he doesn't have excuse not to, although it would probably be a very nice photoshoot.
Old 05-12-2009, 06:48 PM
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U.S. Is Treating Auto Creditors Unfairly, Altman Says

Chrysler LLC and General Motors Corp. debt holders are receiving unfair treatment from the U.S. government, according to Edward Altman, creator of the Z-Score formula that calculates a company’s probability for bankruptcy.

Chrysler, in a U.S.-negotiated deal, is paying its creditors 29 cents on the dollar in a sale of most of its assets through bankruptcy to a company controlled by Fiat SpA. GM debt holders will be treated similarly in an “inevitable” bankruptcy, Altman said today in an interview with Bloomberg Television.

“They’re taking a hard line with respect to the creditors and they’re forcing them to take, in their eyes, a very poor deal,” said the 67-year-old finance professor at New York University’s Leonard N. Stern School of Business. “I’m not saying it’s illegal, but it does seem to be unfair.....”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aODY6TuurzGY
Old 05-12-2009, 08:02 PM
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I agree. You gotta wonder if the bondholders who got TARP, didn't... How would things have played out...
Old 05-12-2009, 09:02 PM
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Well I feel much better about my 1999 Tahoe Sport debacle in which GM treated me like insignificant garbage and forced me to sue them. This failure should be a lesson to any company; hubris will be the end of you. Value each customer as if your entire business depended on them. I know people say its the unions etc that killed GM, but just do a search on the net for people that have been burned by GM and it will become clear that it wasn't just external forces that brought down this company.
Old 05-12-2009, 10:33 PM
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Chrysler offers union worker buyouts; will announce 800 dealership closings

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chrysler...r-buyouts.html


Chrysler offers union worker buyouts; will announce 800 dealership closings


Chrysler will offer buyouts to union workers at seven of the eight United States plants that it plans to close, according to the United Auto Workers union, and a Chrysler dealer says that the automaker will make an announcement that it plans to cut 800 of its 3,200 dealerships nationwide on Thursday.

In order to stay on schedule to exit bankruptcy quickly, the worker buyouts must be completed by May 26, according to the U.S. Treasury.
“In the next few days, each member at these facilities will be sent a letter from the corporation listing the special program options,” a memo sent to local union presidents said.
Earlier this month, a court filing revealed the assembly plants that Chrysler intends to close. The automaker will also close two parts plants, including its Detroit Axle plant - the only one of the eight facilities that will not see buyouts offered to its workers. The reason for this omission is unclear.
The program will offer retirement-eligible workers $50,000 in cash, as well as a voucher good for $25,000 towards the purchase of a new Chrysler product.



Dealership closings
On Thursday, Chrysler will apparently make the announcement of the 800 dealers whose franchise agreements it does not plan to renew.
A dealer who listened to a conference call between lawyers planning to represent the dealers said that Chrysler intends to ask for a bankruptcy judge to reject the 800 franchises. Though no firm evidence of just which dealerships will close, analysts expect the majority of the doomed dealers to come from major metropolitan areas - with many on the West Coast.
Do you guys think the dealerships that will be losing their franchise have a case against Chrysler? I can't think of any reason(s) why the Judge would reject Chrysler's decision to not allow select dealerships not to have their franchise renewed. If a dealership wasn't performing well or didn't satisfy some other quantifiable a franchise trait, they [Chrysler] should be allowed to pull the plug on them.

As for the UAW worker buyout, 50K + a 25K voucher from a company that's gone bellyup sounds like a good deal. I guess the deal breaker is what their job situation with the company will be afterwards, but if Chrysler is buying them out, sounds like they are getting rid of them.
Old 05-13-2009, 06:16 AM
  #838  
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As I mentioned before, the only ones to benefit from this mess will be the lawyers.
Old 05-13-2009, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by biker
It doesn't take a geniuos to see where GM is headed after what happened to Chrysler. Is knowing that you are headed into bankruptcy an insider trading violation?

Potentially, We just had the Nachio case close here in Denver and it was all about him knowing the companies quarterly report was going to tank and he sold several million shares prior to it being reported. I don't expect our current administration to pursue such a case. And one could make the statement that BK is assumed at this point, but I have seen cases made from less.
Old 05-13-2009, 12:38 PM
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yes, please close down some dealerships...


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