North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**
#361
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i would rather see failure now and have to restructure now, than have to deal with the inevitable in the future. Doing so now may help prevent a future recession, but it will prolong this one.
#362
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An average assembler should not make $28 an hour like the uaw makes. I could be wrong on the figure.
Unless most of these guys have been there for 25 years, they should not be paid that well.
Unless most of these guys have been there for 25 years, they should not be paid that well.
#364
Senior Moderator
Giving them money now will just delay their funeral. At least with bankruptcy they can restructure. If we give them money now, they already said they'd be back early next year with their hands out for more. Maybe this will teach them a lesson.
#365
Suzuka Master
And I dont get what they mean by:
White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said earlier Thursday that the economy is too weak right now to weather bankruptcies by one or more automakers.
#366
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
The import automakers that build vehicles here in the US are shaking in their boots!!!
If the Big 3 fail in any way...so do the parts mfgs.......and that means the import makes are gonna get hit hard when they can't get parts to mfg. their vehicles here in the US.
Sure they get parts from Europe and Asia...but quite a bit comes from parts mfg. here in the U.S.
If the Big 3 fail in any way...so do the parts mfgs.......and that means the import makes are gonna get hit hard when they can't get parts to mfg. their vehicles here in the US.
Sure they get parts from Europe and Asia...but quite a bit comes from parts mfg. here in the U.S.
#368
Ford is not at risk until the end of next year.
I'm sure Ford and the Japanese automakers have enough money to pick up the remains of bankrupt parts makers at rock bottom prices and start them up again for just their makes. It would make good business sense to block GM/Chrysler from any potential recovery.
There's only so many cars that can be sold in the depressed economy and Ford/Toyota/Honda should just finish off GM/Chrysler. In fact I think the US government should help fund Ford/Toyota/Honda with integrating those parts manufacturers into the main production lines.
I'm sure Ford and the Japanese automakers have enough money to pick up the remains of bankrupt parts makers at rock bottom prices and start them up again for just their makes. It would make good business sense to block GM/Chrysler from any potential recovery.
There's only so many cars that can be sold in the depressed economy and Ford/Toyota/Honda should just finish off GM/Chrysler. In fact I think the US government should help fund Ford/Toyota/Honda with integrating those parts manufacturers into the main production lines.
#369
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Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers union's refusal to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at nonunion plants operated by foreign automakers in the United States.
So the UAW and workers of companies that are LOSING MONEY (and they share a large part of the blame why these companies are losing money) expect they should be paid more than workers of companies that actually MAKE money? This shows the sense of undeserved entitlement the UAW has and makes about as much sense as any other argument they have put forth.
#370
99 TL, 06 E350
GM will idle 21 North American factories
The have this sneaky suspicion that they were going to do this even with the bailout.
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home
The Associated Press and Globe and Mail Staff
December 12, 2008 at 12:15 PM EST
TORONTO — — General Motors [GM-N]said Friday it will cut another 250,000 vehicles from its first-quarter production schedule by temporarily closing 21 factories across North America.
The move affects most plants in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Many will be shut down for the whole month of January.
Spokesman Tony Sapienza said normal production would be around 750,000 cars and trucks for the quarter.
GM and nearly all automakers who sell in the U.S. are mired in the worst sales slump in 26 years.
General Motors has denied it was shutting down all its North American operations in January after a Canadian Auto Workers official said the company told him it would.
Chris Buckley, president of CAW Local 222, also told CTV Newsnet that GM has announced its car plants in Oshawa, Ont., east of Toronto will shut down for the entire month of January and the first two weeks of February.
Mr. Buckley says the union has been asking Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government to send GM, Ford and Chrysler a strong signal they understand the crisis — and that they want to be part of the solution.
But he says they continue to sit back and see what happens in the United States.
Mr. Buckley says what happened in the U.S. last night is absolutely devastating.
The U.S. Senate rejected the proposed $14-billion (U.S.) bailout package for the Detroit Big Three auto makers but the White House and U.S. Treasury Department said today they are prepared to act to avoid any possible collapse of America's three largest auto companies.
December 12, 2008 at 12:15 PM EST
TORONTO — — General Motors [GM-N]said Friday it will cut another 250,000 vehicles from its first-quarter production schedule by temporarily closing 21 factories across North America.
The move affects most plants in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Many will be shut down for the whole month of January.
Spokesman Tony Sapienza said normal production would be around 750,000 cars and trucks for the quarter.
GM and nearly all automakers who sell in the U.S. are mired in the worst sales slump in 26 years.
General Motors has denied it was shutting down all its North American operations in January after a Canadian Auto Workers official said the company told him it would.
Chris Buckley, president of CAW Local 222, also told CTV Newsnet that GM has announced its car plants in Oshawa, Ont., east of Toronto will shut down for the entire month of January and the first two weeks of February.
Mr. Buckley says the union has been asking Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government to send GM, Ford and Chrysler a strong signal they understand the crisis — and that they want to be part of the solution.
But he says they continue to sit back and see what happens in the United States.
Mr. Buckley says what happened in the U.S. last night is absolutely devastating.
The U.S. Senate rejected the proposed $14-billion (U.S.) bailout package for the Detroit Big Three auto makers but the White House and U.S. Treasury Department said today they are prepared to act to avoid any possible collapse of America's three largest auto companies.
#372
Senior Moderator
Earlier this morning, United Auto Workers president Ron Gettelfinger held a press conference in which he pointed the finger of blame back at Senate Republicans, particularly ones from Southern states in which many foreign-owned auto assembly plants are located, for the failed attempt last night to pass the Auto Rescue/Bailout Bill in the Senate. As we mentioned earlier, negotiations fell apart over the issue of wage parity, or what Senator Bob Corkey (R-Tenn.) called "competitive wages".
Gettelfinger claims the UAW was willing to make its wages and benefits competitive with those earned by non-union workers at transplant factories, but felt it must be done over time through the attrition of older, higher-paid workers and the hiring of new workers at a lower wage with less benefits. Despite this concession by the UAW, Senate Republicans demanded that wages and benefits be made competitive by what it calls an "arbitrary date", likely March 31, 2009.
It seems like a minor issue to stall such an important piece of legislation, which may lend credence to Gettelfinger's suspicion that the UAW was "set up" as a scapegoat by Senate Republicans who have it out for organized labor.
[Source: The Detroit Free Press, MSNBC]
UAW Statement
"The UAW is deeply disappointed that Senate Republicans have blocked the bipartisan legislation that was agreed to by President Bush and congressional Democrats.
"In an effort to work out a compromise, the UAW was prepared to agree that any restructuring plan should ensure that the wages and benefits of workers at the domestic automakers should be competitive with those paid by the foreign transplants. But we also recognized that this would take time to work out and implement, using attrition programs to allow the companies to hire new workers at the lower wage and benefit rates. Unfortunately, Senate Republicans insisted that this had to be accomplished by an arbitrary deadline. This arbitrary requirement was not imposed on any other stakeholder groups. Thus, the UAW believed this was a blatant attempt to make workers shoulder the lion's share of the costs of any restructuring plan.
"The UAW has recognized from the beginning that all stakeholders will be required to make sacrifices to ensure the viability of the domestic auto companies. We were prepared to do our part. But we could not accept the GOP demands to treat workers differently from all other stakeholders, and to subject them to different requirements than other groups.
"Now that the legislation has been blocked by Senate Republicans, the UAW calls on Secretary Paulson to use his authority to provide TARP funds to provide emergency assistance to the domestic auto companies. The ball is squarely in his court. He has the power to prevent the imminent collapse of the companies, and the disastrous consequences that will follow for millions of retirees and workers and for the economy of our entire nation."
Gettelfinger claims the UAW was willing to make its wages and benefits competitive with those earned by non-union workers at transplant factories, but felt it must be done over time through the attrition of older, higher-paid workers and the hiring of new workers at a lower wage with less benefits. Despite this concession by the UAW, Senate Republicans demanded that wages and benefits be made competitive by what it calls an "arbitrary date", likely March 31, 2009.
It seems like a minor issue to stall such an important piece of legislation, which may lend credence to Gettelfinger's suspicion that the UAW was "set up" as a scapegoat by Senate Republicans who have it out for organized labor.
[Source: The Detroit Free Press, MSNBC]
UAW Statement
"The UAW is deeply disappointed that Senate Republicans have blocked the bipartisan legislation that was agreed to by President Bush and congressional Democrats.
"In an effort to work out a compromise, the UAW was prepared to agree that any restructuring plan should ensure that the wages and benefits of workers at the domestic automakers should be competitive with those paid by the foreign transplants. But we also recognized that this would take time to work out and implement, using attrition programs to allow the companies to hire new workers at the lower wage and benefit rates. Unfortunately, Senate Republicans insisted that this had to be accomplished by an arbitrary deadline. This arbitrary requirement was not imposed on any other stakeholder groups. Thus, the UAW believed this was a blatant attempt to make workers shoulder the lion's share of the costs of any restructuring plan.
"The UAW has recognized from the beginning that all stakeholders will be required to make sacrifices to ensure the viability of the domestic auto companies. We were prepared to do our part. But we could not accept the GOP demands to treat workers differently from all other stakeholders, and to subject them to different requirements than other groups.
"Now that the legislation has been blocked by Senate Republicans, the UAW calls on Secretary Paulson to use his authority to provide TARP funds to provide emergency assistance to the domestic auto companies. The ball is squarely in his court. He has the power to prevent the imminent collapse of the companies, and the disastrous consequences that will follow for millions of retirees and workers and for the economy of our entire nation."
rolleyes.
#373
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The UAW has the big three by the nuts. The UAW services foreign makes made in the U.S. as well as the big three. The Republican Senators opposing the loans wanted the UAW to agree to get paid the same amount Toyota, etc., pays them in U.S. plants, and they refused. The report says that the big three pays the UAW $62/hour, while the foreign firms pay them $30/hour. The statement the UAW put out defending why they refused to take a pay cut is bullshit. They seem to be under the delusion that they can bend the U.S. government over a barrel the same way they did the big three for the last 50 years.
#374
Suzuka Master
The import automakers that build vehicles here in the US are shaking in their boots!!!
If the Big 3 fail in any way...so do the parts mfgs.......and that means the import makes are gonna get hit hard when they can't get parts to mfg. their vehicles here in the US.
Sure they get parts from Europe and Asia...but quite a bit comes from parts mfg. here in the U.S.
If the Big 3 fail in any way...so do the parts mfgs.......and that means the import makes are gonna get hit hard when they can't get parts to mfg. their vehicles here in the US.
Sure they get parts from Europe and Asia...but quite a bit comes from parts mfg. here in the U.S.
#376
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I've said it before, but ....
In any given period a certain number of cars will be sold. Doesn't matter whether Ford, GM or Chrysler exist, don't exist, are in bankruptcy, etc.
Those cars will require a certain number of parts (switches, paint, engines, etc). Someone has to supply BOTH the cars and the parts.
Bankruptcy reorganization for the Big 3 and their suppliers is the best way for the industry to consolodate, focus and modernize. Some won't make it, some will come back stronger than ever.
Hard in the short run - Yes. Healthy in the long run - Yes.
#377
Team Owner
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It is essentially a snowball effect. While most of them may not fail right away, the likelihood that they will go out of business gets much higher if one of their biggest customers goes out of business.
And mrdeeno, while I agree with you, you do have to remember that asking people who have grown accustomed to a lifestyle to take a pay cut around the end of the year is like asking a spoiled child to share their toys. It isn't going to happen with just one ask and may require a hell of a lot of negative reinforcement.
#378
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I've said it before, but ....
In any given period a certain number of cars will be sold. Doesn't matter whether Ford, GM or Chrysler exist, don't exist, are in bankruptcy, etc.
Those cars will require a certain number of parts (switches, paint, engines, etc). Someone has to supply BOTH the cars and the parts.
Bankruptcy reorganization for the Big 3 and their suppliers is the best way for the industry to consolodate, focus and modernize. Some won't make it, some will come back stronger than ever.
Hard in the short run - Yes. Healthy in the long run - Yes.
#380
Seems like they're going to get the money anyway. Either the White House or the Fed will give it to them. This damn administration is a complete joke. It doesn't matter what Congress or the Senate decides, with or without the backing of the American people, we'll do what we want anyway.
So this is what it's like to live in a monarchy.
So this is what it's like to live in a monarchy.
#381
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Unions are a big problem, have been since the mid-1900's. They caused a lot of the textile and manufacturing companies to go under, and now they're working on the automotive manufacturers. What I don't understand is how anyone can be oblivious to the 30-ton white elephant in the room.
#382
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
Seems like they're going to get the money anyway. Either the White House or the Fed will give it to them. This damn administration is a complete joke. It doesn't matter what Congress or the Senate decides, with or without the backing of the American people, we'll do what we want anyway.
So this is what it's like to live in a monarchy.
So this is what it's like to live in a monarchy.
Wait until March of '09 when the Obama administration thows so much money at the Big 3, it will make todays 15billion look like chump change.
#383
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
You can't take away a massive share of your business...and expect to survive.
For the other auto makers still surviving....good luck getting parts from your parts makers when they are in BK.
#384
Race Director
People's attention span and memories are short. A couple of years form now people won't even remember the panic ongoing these days in the auto industry.
#385
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
Unions are a big problem, have been since the mid-1900's. They caused a lot of the textile and manufacturing companies to go under, and now they're working on the automotive manufacturers. What I don't understand is how anyone can be oblivious to the 30-ton white elephant in the room.
Everyone knows it's there.
The difference is the 30-ton white elephant has bought and paid for the whores in the room...aka the politicians who whored themselves out to the unions.
The politicians will say nothing...because they know who funds their campaigns.
Remember: Don't bite the hand that feeds.
#387
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Ford's 2007 UAW Contract
Ever wondered what a UAW contract looks like? Here is all 22 pounds of it (in this case, Ford’s 2,215 page 2007 master contract; Coke can is for scale and because I was thirsty).
I’ll tell you this much, those 2,215 pages don’t include much regarding efficiency and competitiveness. What you’ll find are hundreds of rules, regulations, and letters of understanding that have hamstrung the auto companies for years.
I’ll tell you this much, those 2,215 pages don’t include much regarding efficiency and competitiveness. What you’ll find are hundreds of rules, regulations, and letters of understanding that have hamstrung the auto companies for years.
#388
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What makes a car American?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/ame...ml?eref=rss_us
This article sort of drills it home that the big3 themselves are full of shit. "Buy American" means nothing esp. if the big 3 have parts or cars that are built in other countries.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/ame...ml?eref=rss_us
This article sort of drills it home that the big3 themselves are full of shit. "Buy American" means nothing esp. if the big 3 have parts or cars that are built in other countries.
#389
2G TLX-S
GM idles the factories. GM temporary closes the factories. But workers in all these affected factories are continuing to get close to full pay while doing nothing.
Thanks to UAW, GM has no means to effectively cut operating expenses (the way like most foreign auto makers can) even by cutting back on manufacturing new vehicles.
Thanks to UAW, GM has no means to effectively cut operating expenses (the way like most foreign auto makers can) even by cutting back on manufacturing new vehicles.
#390
Dragging knees in
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What makes a car American?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/ame...ml?eref=rss_us
This article sort of drills it home that the big3 themselves are full of shit. "Buy American" means nothing esp. if the big 3 have parts or cars that are built in other countries.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/ame...ml?eref=rss_us
This article sort of drills it home that the big3 themselves are full of shit. "Buy American" means nothing esp. if the big 3 have parts or cars that are built in other countries.
Level Field found that every 1,000 vehicles sold by Detroit's Big Three in the U.S. support more than twice as many jobs as 1,000 vehicles sold by foreign nameplates.
Not the foreign brands' fault that they are more efficient. They create higher quality products with less manpower, thus less cost, thus passing the savings onto the end consumers. Very simple economics.
If you are not competitive, you die in today's competitive global market. Everybody is trying to run lean and efficient. If you're bloated and obese, then that's your own damn fault.
Very typical of the loser to whine about the disadvantages it has over the competition, but at the end of the day, it's very simple - you have lost the competitive edge.
If "Buy American" is your slogan, then you should build it American. Don't freakin' send jobs overseas then use that slogan. Consumers aren't stupid and won't fall for your old antics. It's insulting.
#392
99 TL, 06 E350
#393
Senior Moderator
#395
Dragging knees in
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IMO, anybody who supports the EFCA is a fucking communist.
Even if I were for the union, I cannot possibly justify removing a founding principle of democracy in order to get some new members in the fight for its own survival.
I'm just afraid that the union will try to push the EFCA in return for a concession(s). Politics could win out over democracy (and common sense)... very sad, but that's reality.
Even if I were for the union, I cannot possibly justify removing a founding principle of democracy in order to get some new members in the fight for its own survival.
I'm just afraid that the union will try to push the EFCA in return for a concession(s). Politics could win out over democracy (and common sense)... very sad, but that's reality.
#396
#397
^ I was thinking the exact same damn thing
wasteful
wasteful
#398
Apples and oranges.
Airlines aren't a retail business, whereas automobiles are. Who the hell would buy a brand new car with a 5, 7 or lifetime warranty when they aren't sure if the manufacturer isn't even going to be around to honor said warranty? Will I even have a dealership to go to to get service? This is the perception of many people....
In the past few years I've seen a couple Ford and GM dealerships close down permanently/merge with another dealership, meanwhile a Toyota dealership closed down, and rebuilt a bigger, better dealership at another location.
Airlines aren't a retail business, whereas automobiles are. Who the hell would buy a brand new car with a 5, 7 or lifetime warranty when they aren't sure if the manufacturer isn't even going to be around to honor said warranty? Will I even have a dealership to go to to get service? This is the perception of many people....
In the past few years I've seen a couple Ford and GM dealerships close down permanently/merge with another dealership, meanwhile a Toyota dealership closed down, and rebuilt a bigger, better dealership at another location.
#399
#400
I disagree with unanimity
iTrader: (2)
Apples and oranges.
Airlines aren't a retail business, whereas automobiles are. Who the hell would buy a brand new car with a 5, 7 or lifetime warranty when they aren't sure if the manufacturer isn't even going to be around to honor said warranty? Will I even have a dealership to go to to get service? This is the perception of many people....
In the past few years I've seen a couple Ford and GM dealerships close down permanently/merge with another dealership, meanwhile a Toyota dealership closed down, and rebuilt a bigger, better dealership at another location.
Airlines aren't a retail business, whereas automobiles are. Who the hell would buy a brand new car with a 5, 7 or lifetime warranty when they aren't sure if the manufacturer isn't even going to be around to honor said warranty? Will I even have a dealership to go to to get service? This is the perception of many people....
In the past few years I've seen a couple Ford and GM dealerships close down permanently/merge with another dealership, meanwhile a Toyota dealership closed down, and rebuilt a bigger, better dealership at another location.
Chapter 11 is a reorg. They are not going to have a fire sale. The warranties are still honored. And Toyota is building bigger dealers because they are making money, not losing money like GM.
I still think Wagoner should turn over GM to Gettelfinger. In less than 6 months, you will see the average salary plummet to a reasonable level.