Infiniti and Acura aren't on the level of BMW, Acura, and MB IMO. Both of the Japanese makes might make a car that performs similar, but for example the A6 is more well built inside and out. Sit in one and look at the small details and you will see what I mean.

I have sat in both the new A6 and the RL- I find the RL's interior more luxurious and modern, and I think the fit and finish are beyond reproach. I actually preferred last generation's A6 interior, the new one isn't appealing to me, though it is well put together.

My dad has a A8L and the interior of that thing is beautiful. The new A6 has a really well built interior as well. I guess I notice the small details that you don't find in an Infiniti or Acura. Audi's are always the benchmark for interior design and quality in their respective class.

Same here. I think the new A6's interior is still very nice, but not as nice as the outgoing model. And the A8's interior still owns all in its segment.

:werd:

As with the G, demand will dictate if it comes. Something tells me we'll see a 6MT in due time. :wish: :thumbsup: :2cents:

:agree: Couldn't have said it better. Basically, this is still a performance decision, and the raw numbers say the M pretty much trumped the competition. The hard part of the carmakers is the emotion factor. With this M, I think Infiniti has been successful in creating a car that performs extremely well, while also stirring up excitement. That's the true victory for them. The RL is a great car, but for me, it's still very antiseptic, and sterile. :bandito:

They were comparing similar cars. They hoped to have cars with similar content; all with six cylinder engines. That way, they could more evenly match cars for the comparo. The prices will help reflect the value quotient of each car. For example, the M35 is a great value compared to a similar 530i because of similar performance but at thousands less.

Not selling well in whose eyes? Their cars (and SUVs) are selling just fine and they've gone anywhere but 'down the crapper'. They are still very much alive and well, and if early reviews of the E90 are to be trusted, things are only going to get better.

They better get better. In the last few years, they've begun to lose a LOT of comparos versus other cars...very different than the past where they were dominant and the benchmark for sporty luxury. The competitors have caught up and have begun taking market share. Tell me, whose market share do you think Infiniti took when their sales went up by 80%? I bet most of those were from BMW because the TL sales haven't gone down. The G35 and TL are as good as the 330. The M45 and RL are as good as the non-M 5 series. Simply put, BMW doesn't define the luxury sport category anymore.

Compare the current sales figures to the previous gen. The Z4, 5 series, and 7 series are selling worse than their predicessors. There was an article on this in the WSJ a week ago. BMW's are getting too expensive compared to the competition and Chris Bangle ruined the styling. Plus, the original I-drive was too complicated and the media still scrutinizes it. You can get a similar performing vehicle from Infiniti or Audi for a lot less money.

No, neither is okay at $50k+. But the point is that if you have to spend that $50k range, will you choose an Acura over a BMW? At 56k, the 530i has more equipment (it base is $45k). (Last time i check, I don't think RL is offering a sports package, nor HUD).

A 545i 6 speed has base of $56k with SMG a $0 option. It depends on what you are looking for.

RL is stuck in the middle. On the top end, it could not match the 545i in performance and it barely edges out the L6 530i (and depend on how you order it, price advantage is minimal, in addition adding free maint and free brakes for 4 years). There really isn't a prive advantage on the RL over 530i.

All thing considered, RL at $50k plus I would assume you will pay $2k in maint and $1k in brake job for all 4 wheels. So you are looking at $53k. At 56k the 530i has HUD, sports package that is not available in RL. So the point is really mute. Or you can go with a base 545i 6 speed at $56k.

For $3k difference will you turn down a 6 speed V8? Probably not.

1. 1st of all, The china build 5 series are only limited to Chinese market. The rest of the world gets the 5 series from dingofing in germany.

2. I will disagree with you on the RL front. A V6 will not do for the car in this category. Nissan knows about this, and M45 is probably the best choice in this segment right now.

3. Acura sucessful in luxury market? I don't think so, not with close to 90% of your sales are under $35k price tag. I will give honda/acura kudo when they can sucessfully challenge Lexus (not german yet), in sales above the nearly luxury segment of $35k. If Honda can build a V8 RL and have more choices above the 35k price tag, than it is sucessful luxury maker. At this time, the TL is just barely more expansive than a loaded Avalon. A tsx is just more expansive than a loaded Camry/Accord.

Based on this, how can you state that Acura is sucessful luxury car nameplate?
Nothing against honda, but unless it can comepte from $100k to $30k, it is really not a true luxury name plate.

a BASE 545 has nothing for options. Its completely bare compared to the RL. For $55k, you pretty much get an M45 with everything (14 speaker system, 335hp, and 5.3 to sixty with an auto).

I don't want to comment on acura RL's assembly quality right now since no one really knows. But we all sure do know how poor TL assembly quality has been and still is. Ex. the butt print... etc.

Yes, the E46/E60 does not have good looking and smooth plastic inside. But is it really that cheap? I don't know what standard that Honda has, but BMW has to meet EU requirement on recycling. Majority of its plastic are made out of recycled material and are often very rough to the touch and looks cheap. However, I don't think that it cost less than Acura's interior bits.

Morever, Japanese car manuf has always been able to come up with excellent and luxurious feel in the cabin with right amount of aluminum/fake wood trim. Morever Japanese manuf are quiet good in creating fake wood trims that looks like true wood. While Germans really blows in this department (save Audi).

If anyone has the chance, go ahead and take apart a german car and looks behind the plastic. I was amazed to see how much sound insulation was inside the front dash in the W211. Morever, the wiring in the german car are much better insulated and arranged making it much more easier to work on than their Japanese counter part. German car are assembled quiet well and precise. This is not matched by Japanese. German car suffers quiet a bit in trying to pack too much new items into its car without long term testing it. Japanese uses a much more safer approach and have JDM cars to test new technology before adapting for the rest of the world.

Either one has its benefit and drawbacks. Japanese does an excellent job in perfecting quality on their designs before massive roll out and do a great job in maintain overall reliability. While German does a good job in tryting to get more and more technology to the customer. It just depends on what you want.

that's why i said M45 is the class leader right now. It's a much much better buy than both RL and 545i, wouldn't you agree?

Here is another of what I mean by your countless misquotes...

SMG a $0 Option???... Wrong. To get SMG you MUST get the Sports Package, which is a $3,300.00 option.

Please price me out a SMG 545I for 56,495.00

That's why Nissan is scary. Because it has simply close the gap and in some cases surpass it within couple years. 3 years ago, infiniti is left for dead. But 3 years later, it has better car in almost every category except the very high end. GT-R is also around the corner. This is scary to think for german cars.

G35 other than a little wide on the turn circle. It's a much better buy tha current E46. Same holds true with the M series over current E60 and W211.

I still do not think TL/RL are close to what E46/E90/E60 offers, simply due to FWD, assembly quality/lack of low end grunt/and no V8. I will give kudo to nissan for a great job done though.

Good question. The 325i sales are essentially the same since the G came out, and the 330i sales haven't taken what I'd call a huge hit. The G coupe outsells both 3 series coupes, if you dont count the Ci convertible models. And the X5's are doing well compared to the FX. Until the M gets here, those are the only models comparable to anything from BMW.

You are correct on this, my mistake. But still, you can get a 6 speed manual in a V8 for $56k. So adding RL's $50k price with $3k for maint, will you pick a $56k V8 with 6 speed manual vs $53k automatic with V6.

BTW, BMW is going start offering a limited ind. program. SMG and 545i Sport is not mutually exclusive in the ordering guide. That's why i have seen M3 Competition pkg been ordered with regular 19" even though such combination is not possbile according to BMWNA.

BMW has never been that tight in controlling options ordering. If you find a dealer willing to special order a car, than SMG is possible without sport package.

G is also taking away some sales from the 5. It would also be interesting to see how much sales that lexus has lost since 2001 on the GS300, and IS300. Moreover, anyone has information on what saab/volvo/jag/caddy's sales for the past several years?

Infiniti is grabbing not only BMW customer, i would suspect other brand of customer are being grabbed as well. But i would think BMW would be the biggest hit. Since their product are so similar right now.

I've done just that and that why I said they are selling just fine. These kinds of articles and people like you make it sound like sales are in the toilet, but thats not true at all. Ex., the E60's first full year on sale was 2004, in which they sold 45k. The last year of full E39 sales (no E60s in the mix) was almost 41k. Similar story for the Z4 and the 7.

Expensive, yes, but obviously not too expensive for some people since they are still moving off the lots faster than cheaper models from Infiniti and Audi. Most owners laugh at the media's scrutiny of i-drive because it's NOT as bad as they make it out to be, period.

Lets get with the real world here bud. No one will order a bare bones 545I let alone a bare bones 545i 6 spd. I live in LA, my commute/distance is horrible, a manual tranny for daily use is out of the question. If you are asking me what I would prefer for daily real world monday - friday rush hr traffic use, an AT RL or a MT barebones 545I...I say give me the RL.

But you're forgetting the necessary 1 month additional wait period and no discounts offered when the cars are special ordered.

As for the RL maintenance cost, the BMW quickly makes up that maintenance cost following the end of its free maintenance period. If you keep a car longer than the free maintenance period, the BMWs become quite expensive to maintain.

And you fail to consider that something like 85% of all sales in the mid-size luxury segment are of V6 models. Unless you have a V8 engine to readily plunk into a car, it does not make business sense to try to produce one solely to meet a rather meager demand.

Also, sales MT cars have declined steadily in the last decade, indicating that more and more Americans are too lazy to shift their own gears. This trend shows no signs of stopping meaning that manufacturers will see less and less business reason to continue to bring MT models.

The RL is good for precisely this reason. It has all the most desireable traits that people look for in a car in this market segment. The design is not daring, but it is also not offensive. The power is good, but not phenomenal. A nearly transparent AWD system that eliminates the bad habits of FWD. Gas mileage is on par with the competition, interior comforts on par with the competition, and most of the gadgets that people in this market segment want in a car, all for a nice price. This is a car about compromises, but it really gives up nothing in terms of desirability. Plus, removing the rather annoying task of picking out individual options means that the buying process becomes that much easier.

That right there is the hole in your thinking; there are a lot of people who aren't going to be willing to pay MORE to get similar levels of equipment, less power and questionable reliability.

:whyme: Im not even going to touch that one.

That's your choice right. As far as barebone cars, they do exist. I took a barebone E500 out of dealer lot without anything other than a CD changer for my daily driver. I have seen barebone 530i. So far i have not seens barebone 540i or 545i, but like i said, it can be ordered. Unlike RL, you have to get everything loaded.

Not going down the toilet, but not doing so hot. How is a decrease in sales doing fine?

As for being expensive, compare it to the competition. My dad has owned several BMWs and my brother has an M3. My dad had one of the first 745iL's on order in the Chicagoland area and refused to buy it. The I-drive system in the car was so poor and difficult to use he bought an A8L. BMW improved the I-drive system in the 5 and 6 series, but it still sucks. I would personally take a 740iL over a 745iL having driven and played around with the 2 vehicles. The I-drive system and so-so styling was the direct cause for the new 7 series poor sales.

:thumbsup: A very good post CGT. No mis-leading quotes, no mis-quoted facts anywhere to be found. Good summary

Then obviously you prefer performance over daily creature comforts. You are in the 15% that Acura do not have a sedan for. Boohoo for Acura.

1. Not true. There are couple way of doing this. Speical order cars can be had with discounts, it still depends on your negotiating skills. Other than M cars and hot new BMW with low allocation, which special orders will leave you with no discount. But this apply to the car on the lots too. In addition, if you order through ED which does not come out of dealer allocation you get a 7% discount for ED already. In addition, if you have BMWCCA membership you have additional 1k discount on top of that.

2. True. But you will have to see how many people keep their car after 4 years. That's why you see tons of used BMW a year prior to the warranty expiration.

3. V8 does not grow on trees. Somewhere along the lines a company has to make decision to invest in a new V8. Nissan and toyota did in late 80's. If you want to expand your brand, a V8 is a must. Seriously speaking, will anyone take acura serious as a luxury brand name plate if no V8 will ever be offered? Honda is asking a lot from the V6 to compete with V8 from competition.

4. RL is about compromises. But are the customer looking for compromises? This is not $35k market segment we are talking about here. We are talking $50k price tag. The consumer demographic is very different. If the customer were looking for compromises at this price range, than none of the luxury brand would survive.

I beg to disagree.

If this is the case, Acura would have no problem moving way more RL since last generation. The number don't lie. RL comes fully loaded since last generation and has barely made a dent in this segment. Simple as that.

huh???

15%? where did you get that from. Customer want choices. How many RL has moved through out the year compare to 5/E/A6? Did RL capture 85% of this market? When did that happen?

Simply put, customer wanted choices not compromises at this market segment. Period.

You will have a very hard time finding a bare bones BMW in my area. The dealers usually order certain options, for example the Cold weather package. To get what you truely want, you will have to order it and wait a couple of months or have the dealer see if they can find a similar car in another dealer's inventory.

Get over yourself...we are talking about a high performance V8 vs a run of the mill V6....where 85% chose I6/V6 525s, 530s, E320s, A6 3.0s etc, to their V8 siblings.

Most people do not choose the ED option. In fact, most people don't even know about it. Also, most people are not BMWCCA members. Most people are also terrible at negotiating. The average individual does not get discounts when he/she special orders.

This has changed more in the last decade, but a lot of Americans still keep their cars will beyond 4 years. Some people drive cars into the ground.

This still does not offset the fact that most of the cars sold are V6 models. And Honda is not using the V6 to compete with the V8s. The official line is that the RL is targeted at competitiors V6 models. As for being a luxury brand, a V8 does not a luxury brand make. People who argue the virtues of the V8 model after purchasing the V6 are delusional.

Not all people who look at a $50k car are willing to throw their money away. While some people are willing to pay the extra for a brand name, there are just as many frugal people who are willing to go without the brand name and get an equally good, if not better product and save the money to have in their pocket. I don't understand why people think anyone buying a $50k car automatically isn't concerned about their spending?

no, but they do exist. and my point is simple, choices is what matters in this segment not compromises.

Acura's thinking simply put itself in a bad spot. By compromising it simply is forcing what they perceive as important down the customer's throat. This is not a compromise to end customer, rather is a form of arrogance.

Seriously speaking, for people buying $50k car, wouldn't you think that majority of them probably has more than 2 cars to drive around and waiting is not really an issue. A lot of mercedes/BMW/Audi on the north of $50k are ordered not buy off the lot. Dealer simply does not have huge stock of high end 5/E/A6 on the lot for you just to go drive off.

:whyme: A better question is how is 190k cars, and almost 70k SUVs sold "not doing so hot"?

To each their own applies to the i-drive as much as the styling I guess. People who use it everyday and have no problems doing stuff like walking and chewing gum at the same time dont mind it at all. I know I havent had any problems.
And "poor" sales is a relative term; 16k sold when they're all upwards of $75k isn't that bad. Infiniti selling less than 2000 Q's is what I'd call poor.

:whyme: :whyme: :whyme: The outgoing RL was EIGHT YEARS OLD, FWD, 225 hp, 4 speed auto.....it wasn't exactly competitive. Things have changed and the new model is finally equipped to compete, and if the first couple months figures are indication, it will do fine.

Simple as THAT. :rolleyes:

Total car sales is not in question, rather the 5, 7 , and Z4 which saw a decrease. The 3 series is BMW's bread and butter. If the new 3 doesn't sell as well, this could lead to a serious problem. Also, you have to take into account how good the competition is becoming. Infiniti, Lexus, Audi, and Cadillac are building real performance sedans that match BMW's standards. Cadillac itself has trumped the E39 M5 and E46 M3 in every measurable performance test, even lapping faster around the Nurburgring.

Well, you are making a generalizing statement. I have speical ordered regular BMW before and got discount without doing ED. Regardless negotiation is key. If you are a dumb consumer you could be buying a RL without discount. I barely got a discount when I ordered my TL back in 2000. So this could go both ways.

I am stating that discounts are available if you know how to get it.

Again general statement. Take a look at ebay for quick look, see how many late models BMW are there compare to other brand. Esepcially on high end one. It should already tell you that a high % of owner do not keep their BMW long.

huh? Please show me a luxury brand with cars well above $50k does not have a V8.

Delusional? I guess those 20% of people went with V8 are dillusional. I guess BMW/DCX/GM/Toyota/Nissan are all dillusional in offering a V8.

Like i said, show me a luxury brand with a wide product range that does not offer a V8. Your comments make no sense what so ever.

BTW, most care are sold with L4 world wide. Does it means that L4 is a std. of a luxury brand?

Like i siad, your argument make no sense what so ever.


????

Again another generalization.

What makes you think that people of buy $50k or more expansive car is throwing their money away? When does people who choose performance over equipment throwing money away?

Equally good? so are you stating that an RL could beat a M45?

Consumer in this category prefer choices over compromises. That's why you see all manuf (except honda) makes so many choices available to the consumers. It's not the other way around. Making compromises 1st and force the product down the customer's throat.

Based on your logic, then no one would offer a V8 in this segment, but the truth is that everyone else is offering a V8 and give customer a choice.

You like electronic gadget, but some people prefer power. Who gives you the right to say your are not wasting money by getting all the electronic gizmo over power?

This is why your argument is flawed.