YEH

Not surprisingly, still can't get his FACTS correct.

H/K sales YTD are about 120k units more than Nissan/Infiniti and 130k behind Honda/Acura and H/K are both capacity restrained. Furthermore H/K sales are up 12.1% for the year while N/I sales are only up 10.7% - so, if H/K are "stagnating", then N/I are stagnating even more so and their % increase is inflated by the effects of the tsunami in 2011.

Sales of the new Santa Fe Sport are limited b/c Hyundai is only allotted about 60k units yearly at Kia's US plant and the LWB SF (to be built in Korea) will be launching next year.

The Azera is a big seller in Korea, so the US has only gotten a limited supply.

H/K's US plants sell every Sonata, Elantra, Sorento and Santa Fe Sport they can make.

Any additional growth is limited by models imported from Korea (like the Azera, Veloster, the upcoming new Forte, etc.).

Furthermore, H/K are just about the only brands seeing any real growth in the Euro market.

H/K need another US plant ASAP (if they had one, their sales would be more on par with that of Honda/Acura, esp. since their lineup will be fleshed out w/ the LWB Santa Fe, the new Forte, the new Kia minivan and additions to the luxury range).

And hybrid sales are still niche (and besides, Hyundai has an a hybrid-specific model on the way as well).

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I just wonder what would the true sales numbers had been for the past few years for the US market, if the EPA ratings on those countless Hyundai and Kia models were accurate right at the beginning. Given how competitive some of these segments are, an extra 1 mpg or the magic 40mpg figure is pretty much all it would take to strike a deal or walk over to another brand.

charliemike

The cars still are competitive and good values but this is typical of bad management that makes dumb decisions that undermine years of progress.

Moog-Type-S

Probably would have been the same. Truth is nobody buys a car that way.

A few MPG is not going to change people's minds on the purchase.

Only a sucker would walk away from the car they really love for a few more MPG on a car they do not like as much.

The "savings" at the pump for buying a car with a few better MPG is a suckers game.

It's not Kia & Hyundai were overstating MPG by 10 MPG.

EhkoXC

It probably would have an effect to be honest, though probably not as big as some people seem to be making it out to be. As well, you're assuming that there are other differences besides the MPG among two cars. Assuming all things being equal other than the MPG, it can tip the scales of a purchase, and in segments like midsize sedans, there's a good chance that most other things are equal.

However, if someone buys a car only because of an MPG advantage, I agree with you. I'm just saying that isn't always the case, and in some cases, the MPG advantage can tip the scales one way or another.

True, they're only doing it by 6 on some models.

In truth, I have no problems with either company, as long as they play fair. More competition in the end means that we all win since everyone will need to bring out their "A" game (look at the new Accord). However, this is the second time H/K has been caught lying about their cars likely in an attempt to boost sales. It doesn't matter what the actual impact is on the market, what does matter though is how the company is being run. If they're willing to lie about this, what else would they be willing to bend the truth on to boost sales? It's a pattern that's emerging with the company, and it should raise a red flag.

SSFTSX

Nissan new model just started in Octboer/November. and Nissan hasnt lunched Sentra/Altima new coupe yet nor Hybrid modesl yet.
Accord/Civic is just beginning. the gap is going to be alot wider.
H/K has also done very poorly in latest crash tests. not only they are not good for mpg but also safety. these cars are very poorly engineered.
have you looked at Sant Fe 2.0T fuel economic. it is worse than RDX.
so you want to build new plant for questionable sale prospects?

ttribe

Arrrgggghhhh! It's "launched" NOT "lunched"!

fsttyms1

given the fact that they are up and continue to go up, YES. And it doesnt matter if a manufacturer hasnt launched a new model yet. Simple fact is is that these are the stats for the current model lineups and they are up, not down like you like to think.

Moog-Type-S

That's a bit of a fantasy.

To say that there are enough buyers out there that run across two sedans from different makers that they love absolutely equally, and all things are equal in their in terms of looks, features, warranty, & cost, etc....but the only difference is MPG?.....and the MPG is the deal maker/breaker?

Pretty much an impossibility.

smarty666

Normally I would agree with you, but when gas prices remain close to $4 and 4.50 a gallon, that might be enough for a large chunk of the public to choose fuel economy over styling/like for the car. Not for me, I'm just saying for the majority of people who don't give two shits what they are driving. Plus, if their salaries aren't rising those numbers really start to add up for some people on gas.

Personally, I would choose something I like the styling/features better over a couple better mpg. But that's just me.

Moog-Type-S

I disagree, a couple of MPG difference is negligible in terms of cost savings.

The fact that gas rises a dollar or two a gallon...that's still not that much money in terms of the cost of ownership.

It's just like the stupidity of people trading in their SUV to get a compact to "save money".

YEH

This. It's as simple as that.


What does that matter?

H/K still sell every Sonata, Elantra and Optima that they make in the US.

You have repeatedly kept saying that H/K sales of those models will drop as the competition brings in the new generation of competing models.

Well, despite the new Camry being on sale all year and the new Accord, Fusion and Altima joining the ranks, the Sonata is on track to sell just as much as it did in 2011 (if not a little more).

The Elantra, otoh, is on track to beat its 2011 sales record w/ basically another whole month's worth of sales.

And the Optima is basically going to double its sales volume from last year (and from having more supply since US production started late last year, before that, Optima sales were crimped by lack of supply).

Combined, the Sonata and Optima outsell every other mid-size sedan except for the Camry and they would sell more H/K had the production capacity.

Furthermore, there is an all-new Sonata slated for 2014 so it's not that far away.

What gap?


Uhm, the IIHS lists H/K models as either a TSP or a TSP+, just like Honda/Acura models.

Now granted, the brand new Accord (which Honda got to engineer in anticipation of the new off-set test) got the top ranking in the latest off-set crash test, but the Optima which also gets a TSP+ ranking as well.

Also, just about every Honda/Accord gets the TSP rating as opposed to the TSP+ (Civic, CR-V, ILX, TSX, Odyssey, Crosstour, Ridgeline, Insight and CR-Z) so Honda is pretty much in line w/ all the other automakers (btw, the RL doesn't even get a TSP rating since it got a Marginal score for rollover).

Funny how you left out Toyota which did the worst, not to mention luxury makes like Mercedes which didn't fare well.


1st off, the SF Sport has a higher combined MPG rating than the RDX.

And that's w/ the SF Sport being a larger CUV than the RDX and the SF Sport AWD has the heavier torque-vectoring AWD system which was taken off the RDX (so the mass market CUV has the more advanced AWD system, since Honda determined that RDX buyers didn't care about such things).

Do you ever get anything right?

What's questionable?

The Sonata, Elantra, Optima, Sorento and Santa Fe are all hampered by capacity limitations.

W/ another US plant, the SF and Sorento can be taken out of Kia's GA plant and the next gen Forte can be built there.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I really, really hate when people do this. haha

Moog-Type-S

lunch

EhkoXC

Not what I meant.

True, no two cars will be exactly the same, but in the most competitive segments (ie mid-size sedans) the cars are largely comparable, and usually pretty close in the feature sets. Is it so hard to believe that someone will make a decision between two vehicles that have some minor differences but are largely the same based on the MPG?

True, the actual amount of money you will save is very small, but the vast majority of the car buying public doesn't think like us. They don't really care how the car handles, if it's FWD or RWD, but they do car about how far each tank of gas will get them.

Let me put it this way, if MPG didn't factor in, why does every manufacturer put so emphasis on it both in research and advertising? Taking it to the next step, why are some willing to lie (H/K and now Ford) to improve their rating?

smarty666

As of 03Dec2012 in the US:
N: 935,116
I: 107,250
T:1,042,366

H: 643,572
K: 518,421
T:1,161,993

1,161,993
-1,042,366
= 119,627

Your 120k figure is pretty closes so kudos to you. Just remember, its going to be difficult to compare sales of N/I, H/A, and T/L to H/K as H/K are two mainstream brands which more people can afford, whereas I,A,L are luxury brands with more expensive vehicles that much less people can afford. As a result, until H/K have a similar mainstream/luxury set-up that the Japanese do, comparing sales is apples to oranges as none of the Japanese company have two mainstream brands.

charliemike

The Genesis sedan is a $35-45k car so it applies, I think.

I believe it is outselling the TL too.

smarty666

No, I don't think so. It doesn't apply when the vast majority of the Hyundai brand are mainstream vehicles under $30k which are what the majority of hyundai is getting their sales from. Then you add onto it, another mainstream brand, Kia, who entire line-up is mainstream. Hyundai isn't a luxury division like Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, or Audi is, they just sell two luxury vehicles (Genesis and Equus). It's still an apples to orange comparison with sales until H/K can restructure itself to follow the structure of N/I, H/A, T/L, and VW/A. None of the others have the benefit of two mainstream divisions to generate sales from.

Personally, in the next 10 years, I'd like to see Kia become the sole mainstream division with all vehicles no more than $32-35k, with Hyundai becoming the luxury division of the Korean arm with 6-7 models all of with no model that costs under $25-28k. Then you'll have an apples to apples comparison with the Japanese and German companies. But this will take time as Hyundai/Kia continue to build upon their brand reputation.

SSFTSX

At a discount and to rental fleet.
2011 tell not much improvement.
There is Elantra GT now
Very small base to start with .and it has Hybrid option.
IT wont outsell new Accord once the hybrid version is launched next summer and earth dream engine comes to V6 Accord.
It wont make a difference as by that time Hyundai brand will be devalued like Chyrsler.


It is not just Accord but TL also. TSX is old designed in 2007 and without majore MMC.
TL is TSP+
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15

These are all olde pre 2009 vehicles. Unlike Sonata and Optima that are new designs from 2011.
They have reputation that they don’t need to prove every test. It is H/K that need to prove constantly like 10 year warranty, resale value guarantee, assurance programe etc. H/K need to pass every test in flying color just to sell vehicles.and need to put more content and technology in vehicles. None of other manufacturers need to do that.



Higher combined with turbo? Do it has more than 8inch of ground clearance.
Larger does not mean it is heavier/wider than RDX by much. RDX has highest ground cleanrace and non-DI engine. Wait until RDX gets 310 bhp Earth Dream engine. I am sure at MMC the fuel economic will improve further.
10 year later you will be saying the same thing.

biker

smarty666

Plus

YEH

Actually, I only included Infiniti b/c I wanted to show that H/K sales surpass not only Nissan's, but Nissan's combined w/ Infiniti's (plus, I didn't want to bother w/ the additional calculations).

Take out Infiniti and take out the Genesis and Equus sedans from the Equation and in comparing "apples to apples" (mainstream models) - there is an even greater diff. in margin in comparing sales btwn H/K and Nissan (after all, we would be adding in Infiniti's 6 vehicle luxury lineup to Hyundai's 2 vehicle luxury lineup).

Furthermore, H/K, unlike Nissan, don't sell any large BOF SUVs and Hyundai's 3-row SF CUV is yet to be launched while Kia's mini van is taking a year or so off.



The TL still outsells the Genesis sedan - about 3:2.

But keep in mind that the Genesis doesn't have AWD (which can make up 40-50% of sales for RWD based luxury sedans).


Again, see above.

All Hyundai needs to do is to fill out its luxury lineup which they are in the process of doing.

Besides adding a compact RWD sedan (RK), they will be adding a luxury CUV w/ another CUV or 2 to follow.

Sure H/K have 2 mainstream divisions, but the argument has been that they have been cannibalizing sales from each other (which isn't really true since they sell every vehicle they make in the US) as much as taking market share from others.

The thing which limits H and K is their lack of capacity in the US due to being limited to one plant each.

If say, there were no Kia and Hyundai had 2 plants, the results will likely be similar.


That makes absolutely zero sense.

Why would Hyundai give up selling Accents, Elantras, Sonatas and Santa Fes - which are not only big sellers in the US (and Canada), but around the world (including European variants like the i30 and i40)?

Hyundai (and eventually Kia) will just continue to sell an expanding luxury lineup under its nameplate, just like how Toyota and Nissan do in Japan (not to mention Mercedes in Europe - which also sells commercial vans and trucks, including garbage trucks w/ the tri-point MB logo).

There is no rule that states one has to sell luxury vehicles under a luxury brand.

Now, Hyundai may eventually launch a luxury sub-brand, but that wouldn't be until after they fill out the lineup further.

YEH

You sure like making everyone aware of your ignorance.

For 2011, Hyundai had the lowest incentive spending for any of the major mainstream brands (in both avg. amount per vehicle and as a % of ATP) and the 2nd lowest fleet rate.

While Honda had the lowest fleet %, it had higher incentive spending than Hyundai.


How many times does the fact that the Sonata was capacity strained have to be repeated?

Even a 5 year old can understand that.


Well, exactly!

And where is the GT built? (Korea if you don't know.)

If there had been no GT, then the Elantra would be in the exact same position as the Sonata - basically repeating last year's sales nos.


That's not the point (and 7k/month in sales is nothing to scoff at).

Why was there a leap from 7k/month to 12-14k a month?

It was b/c in 2011, there was only one factory (in Korea) building the Optima and it had to supply both the Korean and US markets (which it couldn't do adequately).

Other markets like Canada and Australia only got a whopping supply of 2k Optimas for the entire YEAR and the Euro launch was delayed time and time again.

However, once US production started, that allowed for 150k supply of Optimas for the US market (and guess what, the Optima is on target to sell 150k).

In Canada sales went from 2k to almost 12k - that rise had everything to do w/ an increase in supply.

As for the Optima hybrid, it has sold 10k for the year, so out of 150k Optimas, it's basically immaterial when it comes to the sales increase.



IT wont outsell new Accord once the hybrid version is launched next summer and earth dream engine comes to V6 Accord.

It wont make a difference as by that time Hyundai brand will be devalued like Chyrsler.



It is not just Accord but TL also. TSX is old designed in 2007 and without majore MMC.
TL is TSP+
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15




These are all olde pre 2009 vehicles. Unlike Sonata and Optima that are new designs from 2011.

They have reputation that they don’t need to prove every test. It is H/K that need to prove constantly like 10 year warranty, resale value guarantee, assurance programe etc. H/K need to pass every test in flying color just to sell vehicles.and need to put more content and technology in vehicles. None of other manufacturers need to do that.




Higher combined with turbo? Do it has more than 8inch of ground clearance.

Larger does not mean it is heavier/wider than RDX by much. RDX has highest ground cleanrace and non-DI engine. Wait until RDX gets 310 bhp Earth Dream engine. I am sure at MMC the fuel economic will improve further.

10 year later you will be saying the same thing.[/quote]

YEH

Do you have anything other than your own assinine opinions to offer? (And yes, that's the correct spelling for what I intended.)

ALG ranks Hyundai 2nd when it comes to its 2013 Residual Awards rankings (next to Honda; Toyota is 6th).

Chrysler doesn't even make the rankings.



So what? The Infiniti G (2006) is an older model and does better than the TSX.

And the 2nd gen TSX started w/ the 2009MY - so it's not that old (look at how you sneakily try to make the TSX older than it actually is - so typical for you to get pretty much all your FACTS wrong).

And the Sonata started production in 2009 for the 2010MY so it's only a year older than the TSX) and the Optima started production in 2010 - so wrong and wrong again.

And yeah, what besides the Accord and TL are rated TSP+?

All the other Honda/Acura models are rated TSP - so you trying to make it seem that H/A does so much better than other brands is misleading.


So "reputation" excuses Toyota for failing miserably and for owners to be putting themselves at risk?

And what "reputation" have anything to do the ACTUAL safety which is the issue at hand (note how to you keep trying to change the issue when you can't rebut the argument)?

And considering that Hyundai doesn't need as high of incentive spending as Toyota (much less Honda), I think Hyundai is doing just fine (not to mention rating ahead of Toyota in ALG's brand residual rankings for the past 2 years.


Who cares?

You stated that the SF Sport had a worse MPG rating than the RDX - which isn't true.


That's the whole point - the SFS is a larger vehicle and despite having a good bit more interior volume, it's as fuel efficient as the RDX.

RDX - 61.3 cu ft

SFS - 71.5 cu ft


RDX ground clearance - 5.4"

SFS - 7.4"

And who cares about what happens in the future - you stated about the models that are available NOW.


Well, unless H/K build another plant in the US - sure, b/c the same reason would exist.

Honda has SIX plants in NA; H/K have 2.

Honda and Toyota have such extra capacity in the US that they are exporting US built models to Japan, Korea and elsewhere.

Still can't grasp the whole limited capacity thing, huh?

Not surprising at all.

SSFTSX

Hyundi will become like Chrysler.

TSX was launched in US in April 2008 but it was shown in EU in Feb 2008. and design was frozen since 2006 since diesel takes long time to certifiy
Honda models are older. for example in reality Civic is just MMC of 2006 model. not all new design from ground up.


Toyota has reputation which Hyundai canot gain despite being 30 years in US market.
this is ur nonsense. show me Toyota incentive similar. for newer models not Corrolla which 5 year old now.
http://www.capitolhyundaisanjose.com/specials/new.htm

It is true.


from where you are getting ground clearance information.


they built that extra capacity to get advantage of economy of scale.


Nissan has Maxima that outsell all Hyundia/Kia $30k+ offering in sedan segment.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

can you guys just get a room and talk?

MTEAZY

Things are getting excellent around here.

Hapa DC5

My side mirrors are more aerodynamic than your side mirrors!

biker

smarty666

Actually, it makes complete sense. Your just too busy sipping the H/K Koolaid to see any logic and reason that it makes no point to even speak with you further. I see that when it comes to H/K your quite the brown noser. How much do they pay you to help them market on these boards? Your just as bad as the Honda fanboys on here.

jnc2000

Is it launch time yet?

biker

jwong77

I was under the impression that really was a Hyundai employee. I think somebody discovered its LinkedIn account and posted it up on here.

Has this been dispelled?

ttribe

YEH denied the LinkedIn account was him/her. That LinkedIn account was for a female employee of Hyundai with a last name of the same spelling as YEH's username. I believe our poster here claimed to be a male. That being said, at this point I wouldn't be surprised to find out that SSFTSX and YEH are two voices in one person's head arguing with himself/herself through the keyboard and we are just all beneficiaries of the spectacle. Anything's possible, IMO.

BTW, I vehemently opposed the attempt to "out" YEH through the posting of the LinkedIn information insomuch as efforts to use a poster's IRL information as a bludgeon in a pissing match have a chilling effect on the quality of the conversation on message boards. Your mileage may vary, of course.

MTEAZY

Isn't it obvious? Connect the dots ttribe it's not that hard



She must be doing a good job. Got a promotion

https://www.google.com/search?q=hyundai+yeh

ttribe

I don't make it a habit of regularly trying to track down the identities of message board posters. Kind of stalker-ish, don't you think?

MTEAZY

She was exposed on another forum I was on. The google url took all of .015 sec to make.

ttribe

The amount of time it took is rather beside the point.

Costco

I say we have a inane debate between SSFTSX and YEH. Strap them down in chairs, then have them take turns throwing nonsensical reasons why one brand is better than another. The person whose head explodes first loses.

ttribe

We may only need one chair if one is simply the sockpuppet/split personality of the other.