Monthly Car Sales news
05-04-2010, 12:38 PM
#681
אני עומד עם ישראל
05-04-2010, 01:04 PM
#682
Right, and the A6 and GS has not even come close to sales with the E or 5 either, yet you say the RL and M need to be more competitive to sell as well as the A6, GS, etc. How does one be more competitive to catch rivals that it has already surpassed, namely the A6 and GS that you named?
I think you need to reread your reviews of the 2011 M, because assuming sound deadening materials and enclosing the engine bay more to "reduce noise" is not what sets them back from BMW or MB.
Further to my point, you again bring up Lexus and say that if they reduce noise similar to Lexus, theyll "be all set". The M is ALREADY outselling the GS, which is considered a lot cushier and less hard edged. Your argument to reduce noise to be competitive with a car it already outsells makes absolutely no sense.
My suggestion is you should go back and read the threads and facts available, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions without having all your facts straight, such as the M not doing as well as the A6 or GS, or that all the M needs more "sound deadening" to be "all set".
I think you need to reread your reviews of the 2011 M, because assuming sound deadening materials and enclosing the engine bay more to "reduce noise" is not what sets them back from BMW or MB.
Further to my point, you again bring up Lexus and say that if they reduce noise similar to Lexus, theyll "be all set". The M is ALREADY outselling the GS, which is considered a lot cushier and less hard edged. Your argument to reduce noise to be competitive with a car it already outsells makes absolutely no sense.
My suggestion is you should go back and read the threads and facts available, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions without having all your facts straight, such as the M not doing as well as the A6 or GS, or that all the M needs more "sound deadening" to be "all set".
God for bid I mis-spoke and I even tried to correct myself in my last post about the GS and A6 sales being lower than the M and you still being a nasty about it. Get a life!
05-04-2010, 01:08 PM
#683
Right, and the A6 and GS has not even come close to sales with the E or 5 either, yet you say the RL and M need to be more competitive to sell as well as the A6, GS, etc. How does one be more competitive to catch rivals that it has already surpassed, namely the A6 and GS that you named?
I think you need to reread your reviews of the 2011 M, because assuming sound deadening materials and enclosing the engine bay more to "reduce noise" is not what sets them back from BMW or MB.
Further to my point, you again bring up Lexus and say that if they reduce noise similar to Lexus, theyll "be all set". The M is ALREADY outselling the GS, which is considered a lot cushier and less hard edged. Your argument to reduce noise to be competitive with a car it already outsells makes absolutely no sense.
My suggestion is you should go back and read the threads and facts available, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions without having all your facts straight, such as the M not doing as well as the A6 or GS, or that all the M needs more "sound deadening" to be "all set".
I think you need to reread your reviews of the 2011 M, because assuming sound deadening materials and enclosing the engine bay more to "reduce noise" is not what sets them back from BMW or MB.
Further to my point, you again bring up Lexus and say that if they reduce noise similar to Lexus, theyll "be all set". The M is ALREADY outselling the GS, which is considered a lot cushier and less hard edged. Your argument to reduce noise to be competitive with a car it already outsells makes absolutely no sense.
My suggestion is you should go back and read the threads and facts available, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions without having all your facts straight, such as the M not doing as well as the A6 or GS, or that all the M needs more "sound deadening" to be "all set".
Take it from a guy who has had two Infiniti's, I know what I'm talking about unlike. Get off your holy then thou high horse/attitude. It really makes you look ridiculous because you don't like something people post.
05-04-2010, 03:37 PM
#685
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
I'd suggest you take your own advice and go back and read the initial reviews by the car mags so far on the M because that is EXACTLY what they said is the problem with the new M. The amount of engine and road noise still being allowed into the cabin. I'd love to know this other suppose BS that is keeping the M below the E and 5 so until you do, give it a break.
Take it from a guy who has had two Infiniti's, I know what I'm talking about unlike. Get off your holy then thou high horse/attitude. It really makes you look ridiculous because you don't like something people post.
Take it from a guy who has had two Infiniti's, I know what I'm talking about unlike. Get off your holy then thou high horse/attitude. It really makes you look ridiculous because you don't like something people post.
I was just pointing out some flaws and incorrect assumptions in your posts, which has nothing to do with liking what someone posts or not, although I'd prefer if CORRECT information was posted (and to clarify my argument, sound deadening and engine noise are only a few criticisms and fixing them won't miraculously make the M "all set", as you say, and neither will it boost it to the level of the 5/E). I would be happy if you just said "Thank You for pointing out the flaws and incorrect assumptions in my posts," and went on your way.
But I think it's pretty clear now who looks ridiculous for overreacting because you "don't like something people post".
05-04-2010, 03:55 PM
#686
Wow, touchy touchy.
I was just pointing out some flaws and incorrect assumptions in your posts, which has nothing to do with liking what someone posts or not, although I'd prefer if CORRECT information was posted (and to clarify my argument, sound deadening and engine noise are only a few criticisms and fixing them won't miraculously make the M "all set", as you say, and neither will it boost it to the level of the 5/E). I would be happy if you just said "Thank You for pointing out the flaws and incorrect assumptions in my posts," and went on your way.
But I think it's pretty clear now who looks ridiculous for overreacting because you "don't like something people post".
I was just pointing out some flaws and incorrect assumptions in your posts, which has nothing to do with liking what someone posts or not, although I'd prefer if CORRECT information was posted (and to clarify my argument, sound deadening and engine noise are only a few criticisms and fixing them won't miraculously make the M "all set", as you say, and neither will it boost it to the level of the 5/E). I would be happy if you just said "Thank You for pointing out the flaws and incorrect assumptions in my posts," and went on your way.
But I think it's pretty clear now who looks ridiculous for overreacting because you "don't like something people post".
The M sold very well for its first month on the market. If Infiniti was to correct these two major areas of refinement it could put it on the level of the E and 5 series. You are the one with incorrect assumptions that these are not areas were improvement would help the M and instead of providing your own opinion on the M and what needs improvement, you come out with no constructive criticism to support your flawed assumptions that the M will NEVER be on the class as the E or 5! Just stating that as written in a textbook, as you just did in your last post without explaining why doesn't go to show me anything! Talk about bold assumptions without any info to back it up.
By the way, the computer-7spd comm issues with hunting and pecking and not quite finding the right balance as been an issue for the last few years for Infiniti. The new M has come out before the retweaked transmission could be introduced. I heard Infiniti is still working on the issues and we won't see the revised transmission until the next Gen G Sedan/coupe!
Last edited by smarty666; 05-04-2010 at 03:58 PM.
05-04-2010, 04:00 PM
#687
Any way, this is a Acura forum, not Infiniti, and I'm not really interested in talking about the M.
What does everyone think that Acura has to do to increase sales of the 4G TL, besides the obvious change in some exterior styling elements?
What does everyone think that Acura has to do to increase sales of the 4G TL, besides the obvious change in some exterior styling elements?
05-04-2010, 04:08 PM
#688
People on hear keep saying that the TSX grill is changing for 2011. What are you referring to? Are you talking about the grill on the TSX wagon? Because that grill looks identical to the sedan's just with some horizontal bars below it or is the grill on the sedan changing for 2011 as well?
05-04-2010, 04:54 PM
#689
it would still be competitive at $48K as it is US built. since it will be built in large numbers compared to ZDX so they can afford to lower the price once volume rises on advance pack.
there people that will like SH-AWD/Honda brand image/tech pack in spacious car.
there no pont in introducing new car above TL for now as Honda dont have
8speed auto/DI/hybrid for next 3 years. discontinue RL as it is distraction.
05-05-2010, 08:25 AM
#690
Senior Moderator
People on hear keep saying that the TSX grill is changing for 2011. What are you referring to? Are you talking about the grill on the TSX wagon? Because that grill looks identical to the sedan's just with some horizontal bars below it or is the grill on the sedan changing for 2011 as well?
Not huge changes but it makes it look much better IMO.
Have a look at this page on TOV. You can see the 10 -11 grilles side by side.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=890226
05-05-2010, 09:30 AM
#691
Race Director
That is the same flawed agrument ("if they just fixed this") folks were making about the RL. Face it folks, the E class and 5 series are at another level and everyone else is just aiming for 3rd place in the category. The new M seems to have that in hand now. No amount of tweaking or even major changes will bring it up to the sales levels of the two leaders.
05-05-2010, 10:11 AM
#692
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all: holy *hit with 7-Series sales?!?
Secondly: Genesis sales look to be in the crapper. They're at best looking at selling around 12,000 cars this year....not good. Maybe they should rethink the Equus.
Secondly: Genesis sales look to be in the crapper. They're at best looking at selling around 12,000 cars this year....not good. Maybe they should rethink the Equus.
05-05-2010, 10:20 AM
#693
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
once new A8 comes. LS will be the first car tossed. A8 will beat LS on fuel economy, performance, feature content, styling. and will be very competitively prices due to fall of Euro.
even Current A6 is outselling GS. let alone next generation from next year.
2.0T Q5 will put more dent into RX.
the era of Lexus in US is finally coming into end within one to two years.
even Current A6 is outselling GS. let alone next generation from next year.
2.0T Q5 will put more dent into RX.
the era of Lexus in US is finally coming into end within one to two years.
Essentially the same thing could've been said about the current and last A8 when they were new. A8s just are not yet selling that way.
The Q5 may get closer to the RX, but a 2.0T alone won't do it. The RX and LS both have a strong hold on their markets, as do the ES.
05-05-2010, 10:36 AM
#695
That is the same flawed agrument ("if they just fixed this") folks were making about the RL. Face it folks, the E class and 5 series are at another level and everyone else is just aiming for 3rd place in the category. The new M seems to have that in hand now. No amount of tweaking or even major changes will bring it up to the sales levels of the two leaders.
that no other company then these two will ever be good enough or at the very least on the same level? I mean it just sounds so ridiculous. Plus, I haven't read anything yet to suggest that BMW, MB, or Audi has even come close to matching the long-term reliability of the Japanese and Korean brands!How do you know the M will never be in the same class as the E or 5? What makes you all seeing/knowing about this to deal with such an absolute assumption like that?
05-05-2010, 11:20 AM
#696
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as the car itself goes, the M is indeed on the level of the E-Class, 5-Series, and A6. However, it's the badge and image that people associate differently.
There the M and Infiniti brand are not to the levels of the Germans which is why they continue to be in that "image above". People perceive them to be superior and sales are representative of such.
Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura all came on the scene over 20 years ago. To this day they are not on the same level on the eyes of the mass consumers. Don't expect that to change with the current generation M.
There the M and Infiniti brand are not to the levels of the Germans which is why they continue to be in that "image above". People perceive them to be superior and sales are representative of such.
Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura all came on the scene over 20 years ago. To this day they are not on the same level on the eyes of the mass consumers. Don't expect that to change with the current generation M.
05-05-2010, 11:26 AM
#697
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This article on MSN is exactly what I'm talking about. Tier I was Rolls, Maybach, and Bentley in case you were wondering.
Tier 2
Audi: as VW's luxury division, Audi has become very well respected world wide. It's contemporary and modest design philosophy really grabs the attention of the buyers who want a fine built German saloon without the glitter and flash of a Mercedes-Benz.
BMW: the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as they call it and rightfully so. The 3-series BMW saloon and coupe have been the benchmark in it's segment for years for handling and comfort all in one package. It's definitely more sporty than an Audi or a Mercedes but it caters to those who want luxury but also those who love to drive.
Jaguar: It's safe to say people who buy Jaguar are those who look for traditional British luxury. It's the next best thing next to Rolls Royce and Bentley (even though they are owned by Germans). Jaguar new XF models differs from traditional Jaguar so perhaps that may draw interest from consumers who typically turn to Mercedes as the luxury brand to own. They are very prestigious (especially the high end XJ's)
Mercedes: Not much mentioning is needed for this marque brand. It's been the definition of luxury in a global scale for any person looking for a luxury car. Their innovative technology has benchmarked themselves as the most recognized brand in the world. They cater more to luxury seekers than consumers looking for a sporty ride. Mind you they have a great AMG division which makes adrenaline pumping, gas guzzling, acceleration a must-have.
Tier 3
Acura: some call them overpriced Honda's but in reality they differ much from the parent company. We find that Acura's have more care put into their fine finishing. Acura's proposition seems to be more solid than their Honda counterparts. We feel that they are the most understated and under-rated luxury brand in North America. They bring well equipped and well priced luxury vehicles to the table which is a great alternative to the slightly more expensive Infiniti's & various Lexus models. As for it's prestige it lacks the luster of even a Lexus but does its job well and based from our studies, their customers are taken care of very well.
Cadillac: the only American luxury brand maker that made our list. They make heavy comfortable cars and is the best domestic luxury brand in North America. They put Chrysler and Lincoln to shame. Their levels of quality is considered high compared to Chrysler's cheap plastic and Lincoln's inability to keep their door sills lined up with the set on the rear door. Cadillac has prestige and in country's such as China and among others in Asia, they are perceived as very respectable cars. In a world where there are many millionaires and billionaires these cars are a favorite.
Infiniti: has made themselves known for performance luxury vehicles. Their level of prestige is no where close to a Lexus but in our opinion their at the same level until you reach past the M35/M45 price range. They are probably the closest competitor to Acura since both brands don't exactly have a "flagship" vehicle. Not yet at least. So does this Infiniti brand have any prestige? of course! otherwise they wouldn't be considered a luxury brand. They just don't have the reputation of a Lexus. Not yet...
Lexus: has hired the best of the best marketers to promote their brand. They have separated themselves from their Japanese rivals enough that they can contend with the European brands. Some call them glorified Toyota's or expensive Toyota's. In fact, they do share similar components to this day despite them claiming their completely separate entities. Their marketers have built an image for their brand of cars to a level of prestige that their Japanese rivals only wish they could have.
Tier 2
Audi: as VW's luxury division, Audi has become very well respected world wide. It's contemporary and modest design philosophy really grabs the attention of the buyers who want a fine built German saloon without the glitter and flash of a Mercedes-Benz.BMW: the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as they call it and rightfully so. The 3-series BMW saloon and coupe have been the benchmark in it's segment for years for handling and comfort all in one package. It's definitely more sporty than an Audi or a Mercedes but it caters to those who want luxury but also those who love to drive.
Jaguar: It's safe to say people who buy Jaguar are those who look for traditional British luxury. It's the next best thing next to Rolls Royce and Bentley (even though they are owned by Germans). Jaguar new XF models differs from traditional Jaguar so perhaps that may draw interest from consumers who typically turn to Mercedes as the luxury brand to own. They are very prestigious (especially the high end XJ's)
Mercedes: Not much mentioning is needed for this marque brand. It's been the definition of luxury in a global scale for any person looking for a luxury car. Their innovative technology has benchmarked themselves as the most recognized brand in the world. They cater more to luxury seekers than consumers looking for a sporty ride. Mind you they have a great AMG division which makes adrenaline pumping, gas guzzling, acceleration a must-have.Tier 3
Acura: some call them overpriced Honda's but in reality they differ much from the parent company. We find that Acura's have more care put into their fine finishing. Acura's proposition seems to be more solid than their Honda counterparts. We feel that they are the most understated and under-rated luxury brand in North America. They bring well equipped and well priced luxury vehicles to the table which is a great alternative to the slightly more expensive Infiniti's & various Lexus models. As for it's prestige it lacks the luster of even a Lexus but does its job well and based from our studies, their customers are taken care of very well.
Cadillac: the only American luxury brand maker that made our list. They make heavy comfortable cars and is the best domestic luxury brand in North America. They put Chrysler and Lincoln to shame. Their levels of quality is considered high compared to Chrysler's cheap plastic and Lincoln's inability to keep their door sills lined up with the set on the rear door. Cadillac has prestige and in country's such as China and among others in Asia, they are perceived as very respectable cars. In a world where there are many millionaires and billionaires these cars are a favorite.
Infiniti: has made themselves known for performance luxury vehicles. Their level of prestige is no where close to a Lexus but in our opinion their at the same level until you reach past the M35/M45 price range. They are probably the closest competitor to Acura since both brands don't exactly have a "flagship" vehicle. Not yet at least. So does this Infiniti brand have any prestige? of course! otherwise they wouldn't be considered a luxury brand. They just don't have the reputation of a Lexus. Not yet...
Lexus: has hired the best of the best marketers to promote their brand. They have separated themselves from their Japanese rivals enough that they can contend with the European brands. Some call them glorified Toyota's or expensive Toyota's. In fact, they do share similar components to this day despite them claiming their completely separate entities. Their marketers have built an image for their brand of cars to a level of prestige that their Japanese rivals only wish they could have.
05-05-2010, 11:34 AM
#698
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
This article on MSN is exactly what I'm talking about. Tier I was Rolls, Maybach, and Bentley in case you were wondering.
Tier 2
Audi: as VW's luxury division, Audi has become very well respected world wide. It's contemporary and modest design philosophy really grabs the attention of the buyers who want a fine built German saloon without the glitter and flash of a Mercedes-Benz.
BMW: the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as they call it and rightfully so. The 3-series BMW saloon and coupe have been the benchmark in it's segment for years for handling and comfort all in one package. It's definitely more sporty than an Audi or a Mercedes but it caters to those who want luxury but also those who love to drive.
Jaguar: It's safe to say people who buy Jaguar are those who look for traditional British luxury. It's the next best thing next to Rolls Royce and Bentley (even though they are owned by Germans). Jaguar new XF models differs from traditional Jaguar so perhaps that may draw interest from consumers who typically turn to Mercedes as the luxury brand to own. They are very prestigious (especially the high end XJ's)
Mercedes: Not much mentioning is needed for this marque brand. It's been the definition of luxury in a global scale for any person looking for a luxury car. Their innovative technology has benchmarked themselves as the most recognized brand in the world. They cater more to luxury seekers than consumers looking for a sporty ride. Mind you they have a great AMG division which makes adrenaline pumping, gas guzzling, acceleration a must-have.
Tier 3
Acura: some call them overpriced Honda's but in reality they differ much from the parent company. We find that Acura's have more care put into their fine finishing. Acura's proposition seems to be more solid than their Honda counterparts. We feel that they are the most understated and under-rated luxury brand in North America. They bring well equipped and well priced luxury vehicles to the table which is a great alternative to the slightly more expensive Infiniti's & various Lexus models. As for it's prestige it lacks the luster of even a Lexus but does its job well and based from our studies, their customers are taken care of very well.
Cadillac: the only American luxury brand maker that made our list. They make heavy comfortable cars and is the best domestic luxury brand in North America. They put Chrysler and Lincoln to shame. Their levels of quality is considered high compared to Chrysler's cheap plastic and Lincoln's inability to keep their door sills lined up with the set on the rear door. Cadillac has prestige and in country's such as China and among others in Asia, they are perceived as very respectable cars. In a world where there are many millionaires and billionaires these cars are a favorite.
Infiniti: has made themselves known for performance luxury vehicles. Their level of prestige is no where close to a Lexus but in our opinion their at the same level until you reach past the M35/M45 price range. They are probably the closest competitor to Acura since both brands don't exactly have a "flagship" vehicle. Not yet at least. So does this Infiniti brand have any prestige? of course! otherwise they wouldn't be considered a luxury brand. They just don't have the reputation of a Lexus. Not yet...
Lexus: has hired the best of the best marketers to promote their brand. They have separated themselves from their Japanese rivals enough that they can contend with the European brands. Some call them glorified Toyota's or expensive Toyota's. In fact, they do share similar components to this day despite them claiming their completely separate entities. Their marketers have built an image for their brand of cars to a level of prestige that their Japanese rivals only wish they could have.
Tier 2
Audi: as VW's luxury division, Audi has become very well respected world wide. It's contemporary and modest design philosophy really grabs the attention of the buyers who want a fine built German saloon without the glitter and flash of a Mercedes-Benz.BMW: the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as they call it and rightfully so. The 3-series BMW saloon and coupe have been the benchmark in it's segment for years for handling and comfort all in one package. It's definitely more sporty than an Audi or a Mercedes but it caters to those who want luxury but also those who love to drive.
Jaguar: It's safe to say people who buy Jaguar are those who look for traditional British luxury. It's the next best thing next to Rolls Royce and Bentley (even though they are owned by Germans). Jaguar new XF models differs from traditional Jaguar so perhaps that may draw interest from consumers who typically turn to Mercedes as the luxury brand to own. They are very prestigious (especially the high end XJ's)Mercedes: Not much mentioning is needed for this marque brand. It's been the definition of luxury in a global scale for any person looking for a luxury car. Their innovative technology has benchmarked themselves as the most recognized brand in the world. They cater more to luxury seekers than consumers looking for a sporty ride. Mind you they have a great AMG division which makes adrenaline pumping, gas guzzling, acceleration a must-have.Tier 3
Acura: some call them overpriced Honda's but in reality they differ much from the parent company. We find that Acura's have more care put into their fine finishing. Acura's proposition seems to be more solid than their Honda counterparts. We feel that they are the most understated and under-rated luxury brand in North America. They bring well equipped and well priced luxury vehicles to the table which is a great alternative to the slightly more expensive Infiniti's & various Lexus models. As for it's prestige it lacks the luster of even a Lexus but does its job well and based from our studies, their customers are taken care of very well.Cadillac: the only American luxury brand maker that made our list. They make heavy comfortable cars and is the best domestic luxury brand in North America. They put Chrysler and Lincoln to shame. Their levels of quality is considered high compared to Chrysler's cheap plastic and Lincoln's inability to keep their door sills lined up with the set on the rear door. Cadillac has prestige and in country's such as China and among others in Asia, they are perceived as very respectable cars. In a world where there are many millionaires and billionaires these cars are a favorite.Infiniti: has made themselves known for performance luxury vehicles. Their level of prestige is no where close to a Lexus but in our opinion their at the same level until you reach past the M35/M45 price range. They are probably the closest competitor to Acura since both brands don't exactly have a "flagship" vehicle. Not yet at least. So does this Infiniti brand have any prestige? of course! otherwise they wouldn't be considered a luxury brand. They just don't have the reputation of a Lexus. Not yet...Lexus: has hired the best of the best marketers to promote their brand. They have separated themselves from their Japanese rivals enough that they can contend with the European brands. Some call them glorified Toyota's or expensive Toyota's. In fact, they do share similar components to this day despite them claiming their completely separate entities. Their marketers have built an image for their brand of cars to a level of prestige that their Japanese rivals only wish they could have.I think Teir 1 and 2 brands better worry.., "All Infiniti needs to do, is just invest in some sound deading materials for the body of the car and enclose the engine bay more to reduce noise similar to what Lexus, BMW, and MB do and they'll be all set.
05-05-2010, 11:38 AM
#699
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frankly I have to be honest. Cadillac and Lexus are closer to getting on the Germans' level than Infiniti.
Even at their bottom in the late 90s, Cadillac's perception was higher than Infiniti, Acura, and not far off of Audi and Lexus. Remember that's when they had those horrible FWD, cheap interiors slushmobiles.
Infiniti is held back in my opinion by having actually TOO MUCH youth. The G is considered "noob" 20-something luxury to the A4 or 3-Series, or even a Lexus ES and Cadillac CTS. That's one example.
Even at their bottom in the late 90s, Cadillac's perception was higher than Infiniti, Acura, and not far off of Audi and Lexus. Remember that's when they had those horrible FWD, cheap interiors slushmobiles.
Infiniti is held back in my opinion by having actually TOO MUCH youth. The G is considered "noob" 20-something luxury to the A4 or 3-Series, or even a Lexus ES and Cadillac CTS. That's one example.
05-05-2010, 01:39 PM
#700
I wouldn't jump on that boat just yet.
Essentially the same thing could've been said about the current and last A8 when they were new. A8s just are not yet selling that way.
The Q5 may get closer to the RX, but a 2.0T alone won't do it. The RX and LS both have a strong hold on their markets, as do the ES.
Essentially the same thing could've been said about the current and last A8 when they were new. A8s just are not yet selling that way.
The Q5 may get closer to the RX, but a 2.0T alone won't do it. The RX and LS both have a strong hold on their markets, as do the ES.
. Q5 is super expensive for its class for 2k sales per month.
RX dont have market hold anymore it is selling only 7 to 8k despite having FWD, hybrid etc. once more Q5 2.0T, hybrid, diesel, 3.0T, FWD comes, there is substantial upside.
current A8 was not upto mark of S/7. where most of essential sales are for German cars. New A8 surpass both S/7. and with Euro decline very competitive pricing. and Audi is already closing on 10k per month sale mark. the same cycle will be repeated with new A6/A7.
it will relegate GS/E/5 into permanent obsolence.
MB/BMW/Toyota are severaly damaged economically. i doubt it can offer new products on Audi scale, technology, sportines and refinement.
05-05-2010, 02:54 PM
#701
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Q5 is not closer to RX it is more expensive than RX. just do used car search and see what comes out..
Q5 is super expensive for its class for 2k sales per month.
RX dont have market hold anymore it is selling only 7 to 8k despite having FWD, hybrid etc. once more Q5 2.0T, hybrid, diesel, 3.0T, FWD comes, there is substantial upside.
current A8 was not upto mark of S/7. where most of essential sales are for German cars. New A8 surpass both S/7. and with Euro decline very competitive pricing. and Audi is already closing on 10k per month sale mark. the same cycle will be repeated with new A6/A7.
it will relegate GS/E/5 into permanent obsolence.
MB/BMW/Toyota are severaly damaged economically. i doubt it can offer new products on Audi scale, technology, sportines and refinement.
. Q5 is super expensive for its class for 2k sales per month.
RX dont have market hold anymore it is selling only 7 to 8k despite having FWD, hybrid etc. once more Q5 2.0T, hybrid, diesel, 3.0T, FWD comes, there is substantial upside.
current A8 was not upto mark of S/7. where most of essential sales are for German cars. New A8 surpass both S/7. and with Euro decline very competitive pricing. and Audi is already closing on 10k per month sale mark. the same cycle will be repeated with new A6/A7.
it will relegate GS/E/5 into permanent obsolence.
MB/BMW/Toyota are severaly damaged economically. i doubt it can offer new products on Audi scale, technology, sportines and refinement.
The RX offers a FWD model in addition to AWD, which helps sales a little for those who don't want/need AWD and want to pocket a couple of grand. The RX also comes in hybrid guise.
Also, explain to me exactly how you figure the A8 will stomp the S-Class and 7-Series in sales? By just being better? The current one was better than the 2002-2008 7-Series and 2000-2006 S-Class and that didn't help.
05-05-2010, 03:08 PM
#702
Race Director
Sales volumes don't change much over the span of the typical model run. Even the huge problems at Toyota have not had a huge effect on their sales. The latest Sonata has been hailed as the Camcord beater - guess what - it is very likely to still not get to those sales level despite being a better car (on paper). The auto industry is a very big ocean liner that does not turn on a dime and people's taste don't change overnight.
Will the M perhaps creep up to maybe 1500 or even 2K/mo sales this year - sure its possible - but it is very unlikely those will come at the expense of the 3-5K/mo sales of the 5 series or E class - at least not in the near future. Can the M outsell the 5 series or E class - sure if BMW or MB screw up their model and Infiniti keeps improving things - but that will be a long time from now.
05-05-2010, 03:20 PM
#703
Senior Moderator
You are confused. I was talking about sales, not price.
The RX offers a FWD model in addition to AWD, which helps sales a little for those who don't want/need AWD and want to pocket a couple of grand. The RX also comes in hybrid guise.
Also, explain to me exactly how you figure the A8 will stomp the S-Class and 7-Series in sales? By just being better? The current one was better than the 2002-2008 7-Series and 2000-2006 S-Class and that didn't help.
The RX offers a FWD model in addition to AWD, which helps sales a little for those who don't want/need AWD and want to pocket a couple of grand. The RX also comes in hybrid guise.
Also, explain to me exactly how you figure the A8 will stomp the S-Class and 7-Series in sales? By just being better? The current one was better than the 2002-2008 7-Series and 2000-2006 S-Class and that didn't help.
I know you enjoy arguing but did you see my warning?
05-05-2010, 03:28 PM
#704
oh man, an article from MSN, that means that is what is set in stone, and written in text! I don't care what any article, car blog, enthusiast posturing says, Lexus is on the level of BMW, MB, it has been for some time now!
Personally, I find the argument flawed about brand image/reputation and sales. It falls apart when talking about Audi and why I think this tier system and brand perception is nothing but a bunch of bull shit! There is always a double standard that the Germans can do no wrong and that the Japanese will never be on their level.
Audi's long term reliability is still the worst of the German big three and their sales have not exceeded Lexus or Acura annually yet they are a tier above them? What a bunch of baloney. So you see what I mean about this tier stuff. People say, oh this is what puts these automakers in this group and these in others and then things like sales totals don't follow that logic and then there is an excuse why they are an exception. That is what I'm tired of hearing. I mean Lexus, Acura, and Cadillac have much much better sales than Audi so that logic falls apart! I mean my God, Lexus out sells BMW and MB the last few years!
Tier 2: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar
Tier 3: Audi, Infiniti
Tier 4: Acura, Cadillac
2009 Annual Luxury Sales 2008 Annual Luxury Sales
Lexus: 215,975 Lexus: 260,087
BMW: 196,502 BMW: 249,113
MB: 190,604 MB: 225,128
Caddy: 109,092 Caddy: 161,159
Acura: 105,723 Acura: 141,504
Audi: 82,716 Infiniti: 112,989
Infiniti: 81,089 Audi: 87,760
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/b...or-most-editi/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/05/b...-over-edition/
Personally, I find the argument flawed about brand image/reputation and sales. It falls apart when talking about Audi and why I think this tier system and brand perception is nothing but a bunch of bull shit! There is always a double standard that the Germans can do no wrong and that the Japanese will never be on their level.
Audi's long term reliability is still the worst of the German big three and their sales have not exceeded Lexus or Acura annually yet they are a tier above them? What a bunch of baloney. So you see what I mean about this tier stuff. People say, oh this is what puts these automakers in this group and these in others and then things like sales totals don't follow that logic and then there is an excuse why they are an exception. That is what I'm tired of hearing. I mean Lexus, Acura, and Cadillac have much much better sales than Audi so that logic falls apart! I mean my God, Lexus out sells BMW and MB the last few years!
Tier 2: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar
Tier 3: Audi, Infiniti
Tier 4: Acura, Cadillac
2009 Annual Luxury Sales 2008 Annual Luxury Sales
Lexus: 215,975 Lexus: 260,087
BMW: 196,502 BMW: 249,113
MB: 190,604 MB: 225,128
Caddy: 109,092 Caddy: 161,159
Acura: 105,723 Acura: 141,504
Audi: 82,716 Infiniti: 112,989
Infiniti: 81,089 Audi: 87,760
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/b...or-most-editi/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/05/b...-over-edition/
05-05-2010, 03:29 PM
#705
Trust me, I put no faith or stock in an article from MSN either!
05-05-2010, 03:32 PM
#707
No one knows for sure what will happen in the future - one can only go by past history and current trends. Regardless of what car rags or even customers say about the overall attributes of a car, the better car does not necessarily yield it better sales - especially in this category. One could argue all day that the IS350 or G37 is a better overall car than the 335 but the sales do not reflect that. The 3 series keeps getting its 8-10K/mo sales despite virtually anything else the competition does. The only reason its sales have declined the past year was due to the economy - not because of the competition. The same has been true of the mid size class.
Sales volumes don't change much over the span of the typical model run. Even the huge problems at Toyota have not had a huge effect on their sales. The latest Sonata has been hailed as the Camcord beater - guess what - it is very likely to still not get to those sales level despite being a better car (on paper). The auto industry is a very big ocean liner that does not turn on a dime and people's taste don't change overnight.
Will the M perhaps creep up to maybe 1500 or even 2K/mo sales this year - sure its possible - but it is very unlikely those will come at the expense of the 3-5K/mo sales of the 5 series or E class - at least not in the near future. Can the M outsell the 5 series or E class - sure if BMW or MB screw up their model and Infiniti keeps improving things - but that will be a long time from now.
Sales volumes don't change much over the span of the typical model run. Even the huge problems at Toyota have not had a huge effect on their sales. The latest Sonata has been hailed as the Camcord beater - guess what - it is very likely to still not get to those sales level despite being a better car (on paper). The auto industry is a very big ocean liner that does not turn on a dime and people's taste don't change overnight.
Will the M perhaps creep up to maybe 1500 or even 2K/mo sales this year - sure its possible - but it is very unlikely those will come at the expense of the 3-5K/mo sales of the 5 series or E class - at least not in the near future. Can the M outsell the 5 series or E class - sure if BMW or MB screw up their model and Infiniti keeps improving things - but that will be a long time from now.
! At least give Infiniti some credit, they have had a clear consistent goal/plan for the last 10 years of targeting BMW with their vehicles and have never strayed from that focus, unlike Acura who currently doesn't seem to know what it wants to do!
05-05-2010, 03:33 PM
#708
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oh man, an article from MSN, that means that is what is set in stone, and written in text! I don't care what any article, car blog, enthusiast posturing says, Lexus is on the level of BMW, MB, it has been for some time now!
Personally, I find the argument flawed about brand image/reputation and sales. It falls apart when talking about Audi and why I think this tier system and brand perception is nothing but a bunch of bull shit! There is always a double standard that the Germans can do no wrong and that the Japanese will never be on their level.
Personally, I find the argument flawed about brand image/reputation and sales. It falls apart when talking about Audi and why I think this tier system and brand perception is nothing but a bunch of bull shit! There is always a double standard that the Germans can do no wrong and that the Japanese will never be on their level.
People can have the E-Class, 5-Series, and the M. Default choice without even looking past that: German, at least most of the time says sales. Why? Because they're more prestigious, have more heritage, and are PERCEIVED as better.
Would you view a Genesis as a vehicle as good as the Lexus ES or Acura TL? Probably at least similar right? But to most people "It's a Hyundai."
05-05-2010, 03:34 PM
#709
Senior Moderator
Look at post 694. 
My comment about you enjoying arguing comes from that TL thread last week. Not saying that in a negative way.
Debating SSFTSX is like debating a blind and deaf Cocker Spaniel. Only you'd eventually get your point across to the Cocker Spaniel.
My comment about you enjoying arguing comes from that TL thread last week. Not saying that in a negative way.
Debating SSFTSX is like debating a blind and deaf Cocker Spaniel. Only you'd eventually get your point across to the Cocker Spaniel.
05-05-2010, 03:39 PM
#710
Yeah, unfortunately you just listed EXACTLY the point.
People can have the E-Class, 5-Series, and the M. Default choice without even looking past that: German, at least most of the time says sales. Why? Because they're more prestigious, have more heritage, and are PERCEIVED as better.
Would you view a Genesis as a vehicle as good as the Lexus ES or Acura TL? Probably at least similar right? But to most people "It's a Hyundai."
People can have the E-Class, 5-Series, and the M. Default choice without even looking past that: German, at least most of the time says sales. Why? Because they're more prestigious, have more heritage, and are PERCEIVED as better.
Would you view a Genesis as a vehicle as good as the Lexus ES or Acura TL? Probably at least similar right? But to most people "It's a Hyundai."
I really like the new Audi's and would love to be in one!
05-05-2010, 03:41 PM
#711
05-05-2010, 04:23 PM
#712
Just to Be Through
Just to be through, I found the luxury sales by manufacturer for 2007 so now we can go back 3 years to compare them.
Lexus: 329,177
BMW: 293,795
MB: 253,433
Caddy: 214,726
Acura: 180,104
Infiniti: 127,038
Audi: 93,506
Personally, after being with GM years ago, I like having vehicles and models from automakers that don't sell as much because then that makes my car more unique and commonly seen on the road. That is the biggest problem with Lexus, BMW, MB, Toyota, GM, and Caddy and something that turns me away from them is that they sell so much that you'll see more of their vehicles on the road. That is something that has attracted me to Acura, Infiniti, and Audi!
But hey that is just me!
Lexus: 329,177
BMW: 293,795
MB: 253,433
Caddy: 214,726
Acura: 180,104
Infiniti: 127,038
Audi: 93,506
Personally, after being with GM years ago, I like having vehicles and models from automakers that don't sell as much because then that makes my car more unique and commonly seen on the road. That is the biggest problem with Lexus, BMW, MB, Toyota, GM, and Caddy and something that turns me away from them is that they sell so much that you'll see more of their vehicles on the road. That is something that has attracted me to Acura, Infiniti, and Audi!
But hey that is just me!
05-05-2010, 06:26 PM
#713
Volkswagen's full line of award-winning TDI® Clean Diesel models, which includes the Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, Golf, and Touareg, again led the way among customers. The exciting and economical Jetta SportWagen TDI continued its strong performance, accounting for 84.0% of all Jetta SportWagens sold in April.
Sorry to change the topic briefly guys but i found this stat very interesting while looking at the various manufacture reports for last month. This one from VW was very interesting considering that Acura continues to refuse bringing a diesel version over in the TSX, especially the new Wagon.
05-05-2010, 07:16 PM
#714
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to change the topic briefly guys but i found this stat very interesting while looking at the various manufacture reports for last month. This one from VW was very interesting considering that Acura continues to refuse bringing a diesel version over in the TSX, especially the new Wagon.
05-05-2010, 07:21 PM
#715
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to be through, I found the luxury sales by manufacturer for 2007 so now we can go back 3 years to compare them.
Lexus: 329,177
BMW: 293,795
MB: 253,433
Caddy: 214,726
Acura: 180,104
Infiniti: 127,038
Audi: 93,506
Personally, after being with GM years ago, I like having vehicles and models from automakers that don't sell as much because then that makes my car more unique and commonly seen on the road. That is the biggest problem with Lexus, BMW, MB, Toyota, GM, and Caddy and something that turns me away from them is that they sell so much that you'll see more of their vehicles on the road. That is something that has attracted me to Acura, Infiniti, and Audi!
But hey that is just me!
Lexus: 329,177
BMW: 293,795
MB: 253,433
Caddy: 214,726
Acura: 180,104
Infiniti: 127,038
Audi: 93,506
Personally, after being with GM years ago, I like having vehicles and models from automakers that don't sell as much because then that makes my car more unique and commonly seen on the road. That is the biggest problem with Lexus, BMW, MB, Toyota, GM, and Caddy and something that turns me away from them is that they sell so much that you'll see more of their vehicles on the road. That is something that has attracted me to Acura, Infiniti, and Audi!
But hey that is just me!
And I'm all for exclusive brands and models but I certainly refuse to buy an inferior car on those grounds alone. Sure you don't see a lot of Saab 9-5s compared to A6s so should I buy the A6 instead? Of course not.
*this is of no offense (hopefully) to any 9-5 owners, I actually do like the 06-09 9-5s*
05-05-2010, 08:16 PM
#716
Race Director
Acura may seem like it has issues, but the sales levels are still quite good and they're making money.
05-05-2010, 08:24 PM
#717
Race Director
Sorry to change the topic briefly guys but i found this stat very interesting while looking at the various manufacture reports for last month. This one from VW was very interesting considering that Acura continues to refuse bringing a diesel version over in the TSX, especially the new Wagon.
05-05-2010, 09:18 PM
#718
hail to the victors
Tier 0 - rolls, bentley, maybach (these really don't count.. they are super luxury...)
Tier 1 - MB, BMW, Audi
Lexus is Tier 1 in america, but Tier 2 in everywhere else.
Tier 1 - MB, BMW, Audi
Lexus is Tier 1 in america, but Tier 2 in everywhere else.
05-05-2010, 09:20 PM
#719
You are confused. I was talking about sales, not price.
The RX offers a FWD model in addition to AWD, which helps sales a little for those who don't want/need AWD and want to pocket a couple of grand. The RX also comes in hybrid guise.
Also, explain to me exactly how you figure the A8 will stomp the S-Class and 7-Series in sales? By just being better? The current one was better than the 2002-2008 7-Series and 2000-2006 S-Class and that didn't help.
The RX offers a FWD model in addition to AWD, which helps sales a little for those who don't want/need AWD and want to pocket a couple of grand. The RX also comes in hybrid guise.
Also, explain to me exactly how you figure the A8 will stomp the S-Class and 7-Series in sales? By just being better? The current one was better than the 2002-2008 7-Series and 2000-2006 S-Class and that didn't help.
Q5 has been for sale only for year and is more expensive on avg price basis than RX.
RX has been on sale for 10 years and is know commoditiy. Q5 is creating new segment for Audi. RX is stalling despite throwing everything on market.
the only way for RX is downward.
It is first time Audi is closer to 10k per month sales.
Lexus SUV dont have future. Audi has SH-AWD and diesel tech and soon hybrid.
current A8 falls behind in refinement and performance than MB S and BMW 7 and is as expensive. so most people buy MB S and BMW 7. New A8 is ground breaking in everyway. and Audi profile is now alot higher than a decade ago.
look at Canada. Audi is outselling Lexus. the same will happen in US.
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-n...g?artid=118730
05-05-2010, 10:46 PM
#720
Punk Rocker
Whoops, I didn't realize it was AZine's own village idiot posting. Seriously, we should institute a basic intelligence requirement to post on here....
Last edited by majin ssj eric; 05-05-2010 at 10:48 PM.