Moog-Type-S

http://www.leftlanenews.com/november...tml#more-23142

neuronbob

Sad what's happened to the TL. I hope exterior changes are coming soon other than the rumored grille kit. As Spicy Mikey said above, it's really too bad as the TL is a REALLY solid car otherwise.

Luckily, the TSX seems to be Acura's bread and butter sedan now, and the MDX is selling like hotcakes.

Colin

This time last year there were plenty of 2008s to close out and 2009s on the ground. We have only 4 base 2009s and 4 (300 day old) base AWDs left to sell. Our first small batch of 2010s arrived last month and most were FWD Techs which sold out right away. Also our one 6MT sold in a few days. So our soft TL sales were supply driven.

The interesting thing is that 2009 TSX production shut down in March. I don't remember when 2010s started rolling in, but it was probably in August. Not surprisingly, in June (for example) the TSX sold only 1800 units, most likely due to lo inventory.

So no doubt the TL is hurting, but this month is the transitional month and with the low production all year long, it's not as if we're entering the 2010 MY with 30 2009s to clear out. (this is our perspective only, now someone will chime in that their dealer has 50 '09s...)

Edited to add: The MDX is similar, we had ZERO production through most of the summer and now they've revved up the production line to push out a bunch of 2009s.... just in time for us to have to blow them out. WTF is up with that?

mrdeeno

Right, whenever an Acura or Honda model doesn't live up to expected sales figures, it's because of lack of availability and no other reason (I've seen this argument used in other threads to defend Insight and RL sales already). taking into account market conditions on the entire segment the TL competes in, sales of the current model are LOWER than they were for the previous generation.

I guess Yugo went under 'cuz they couldn't keep up with demand for their products.

Colin

Whatever, I'm not saying that if we got what we needed between May and August, it would have appreciably changed the whole YTD TL picture. BUT I am saying that we were screaming for TLs and MDXs because we needed more than ZERO.

mrdeeno

But i don't think YOUR regional market is indicative of the entire national market either.

Colin

I believe I've made it clear that I don't pretend to speak for others. In my world, this is acknowledging a 'shade of gray' that there may be another argument. Are you willing to acknowledge that there is even a possibility that availability might contribute to low sales on some models?

Belzebutt

No kidding, when I went there I drove around the entire island including the downhilll highway mountain passes, and I counted maybe 3 places where the speed limit was 55.

I laughed when I saw a Dinan 7-series.

VTEC Racer

So lets get this straight first... You came here to type up a post just so you can single me out and attack me? You didn't post a single piece of factual information regarding the topic at hand yet you were able to somehow type up several paragraphs just to attack me. This has become a trend with you of late and I have asked you to stop in the past. Clearly, your only method of communication is aggression and fanning the flames. Did I sleep with your mother or something when you were a little girl?

When I asked CJ who cares about anything he just said, I didn't mean what he says period. I was referring to the information he was using to justify the high sales of the Insight, Prius, and HS in Japan. Maybe if you weren't so aggressive towards me all the time and took the time to READ instead, you could have picked up on that.

What does the R8 have to do with the SC? I don't know. Same thing that the Insight has to do with the HS. Ask CJ.

The HS sold 4 units more than the Insight. Congratulations to Lexus for achieving such a milestone. Lets ignore the fact though that it is currently over 25% behind Toyota's annual goal when comparing YTD sales and over 33% behind sales targets for the month of November. But again, congratulations to Toyota on such an achievement. Maybe we should also discuss how the MDX with a base price of $41,000 outsold the entire Scion brand which has a starting price of $15,500. After all, you do enjoy arguing about bullshit topics. Especially ones that include me.

If you want worldwide sales goals and you don't believe the numbers I have provided, then do something productive for once and look it up for yourself and prove me wrong. Your always telling me that my arguments hold no weight, yet you provide nothing to back that statement up.

If you have a personal vendetta against me, then be an adult and send me a private message instead of always tainting the forums with your garbage. If you're trying to show everyone how cool you are by confronting me all the time, then do what you need to do. However, if you want to be an adult, you should know how to proceed in the future. Conduct yourself like the lady you are supposed to be.

Again, LessIsBest.

VTEC Racer

Do us all a favor and click on the link: http://www.mathtutor.com/

VTEC Racer

November 2009 Luxury Sales

Sub-entry level
TSX-2126
HS-1,407
S40-824
1 series- 724
A3- 391
C30- 287

Entry Level
3 series- 6,538
C-class- 4,022
ES- 4,010
G37 (Sedan/Coupe)- 3,288
IS (Sedan/Convertible)- 2,851
A4-2,532
CTS- 2,705
TL-2,059
MKZ-1,733
S60-753
9-3- 249

Mid-Level
E-class- 4,824
5-series- 3,462
MKS - 1,426
GS- 596
S80-581
A6-527
M35/45- 416
STS- 279
RL-176
9-5- 44

Full-Size
S-class-1,124
LS-1,057
7 series- 1,046
A8-104

Cute-Ute
RX-7,923
GLK- 1,724
Q5-1,509
XC60-1,098
RDX-943
EX-630
X3- 268

SUV Midsize
MDX-3,465
SRX- 3,004
X5- 2,771
M-class- 2,679
MKX- 1,364
XC90-969
FX-776
X6- 429
GX-209

SUV Large
Escalade- 2,270
GL-1,417
Navigator-784
MKT- 648
QX- 534
Q7- 500
LX- 313

*DISCLAIMER
These numbers are for informational purposes only. Don't get mad at me because your offended by the placement of your favorite car.

mrdeeno

Acknowledging that availability may contribute to low sales has nothing to do with it when it MOST LIKELY does not apply. Why is it that the "lack of availability" defense only crops up when a model doesn't do as well as expected? Why didn't "lack of availability" affect how well the previous TL did relative to its segment rivals? When the TL does well, how come no one says "Oh, TL sales are better than XXX sales because XXX had low availability that month." Wait, so are you telling me that the Saab 9-3 "could" be the number 1 selling car in its segment, if not for "maybe" the lack of availability????

Yes, I am willing to acknowledge that there is a possibility that availability contributes to low sales on SOME models, but in the case of the TL, it's a very LOW possibility, just like it's a LOW possiblity that RL sales are poor due to lack of availability (and yes, someone actually used this to defend low RL sales ) It just sounds like this is the easiest cop-out reason for any discussion about low sales of any honda or acura these days, especially when there are a shitload of more likely reasons why sales are suffering (such as the god-awful styling).

VTEC Racer

I have never made any excuses for the Insights sales performance in the U.S. or any other Honda or Acura model for that matter. I defend Honda, but I don't make excuses for them. All I have provided is reasonable and factual information regarding the bright side for Honda with the lack of U.S. Insight sales. It's just a matter of you taking your hands off of your ears one of these days.

Colin

I've already pointed out in a reasonable manner that there was ZERO RL production for most of 2009. This is a stone cold fact. Now if you interpret this as Honda's choice due to lack of demand, I'll be the first to agree with you. However, I'm here to tell you that demand is not ZERO. So what can you make from the conundrum? My opinion is that low demand caused Honda to overreact and slash production far too much. This in turn became a self fulfilling prophesy. People lose interest in a car if it's unavailable and you cannot offer them any reasonable timetable for when they might get their car.

I had 4 previous RL customers end their leases this year but we had nothing to sell them. One went with an MDX, one bought his 2005 RL, and two have extended their leases till the 2010 RL AND ZDX are both available to compare. BUT the result was 4 less RLs sold. I'm just one person at one store. Surely there must be a few others like me at a few of the 270 other Acura stores in the US.

Availability is no more an easy cop-out than trying to blame all the problems on the styling. BUT even you're not saying that, and there are indeed a shitload of other reasons, I hope you're including the economy, as one of them.

I'm perfectly willing to have a discussion with you. I just wish you would not be so one dimensional. Things are not as black and white as you make it sound.

Colin

Yeah, there really isn't anywhere to go anyway. Traffic is such a bear too. But what does this have to do with availability? We're a moderate volume dealer, I don't know where we stood last month, but we were in the top 30 nationally in Oct and tops in our zone. We could use more cars. Acura is running a special lease ad on the base TSX. Right now, we have only one base TSX (and it's a manual) till our next shipment arrives. As I recall, we are out of Tech FWD TLs right now and only have one FWD RDX. I'm not kidding when I say we need more product.

dom

More like a matter of you taking off the rose colored Honda goggles.

dom

Ok, so there would have been 180 RL's sold last month, fair enough.

Colin, your there day in and day out so I trust that availability is an issue. But even you have to admit that the excuse is being thrown around quite liberally these days around Honda forums and has been for some time.

Yet, not once have I seen it go the other way when a competitor has low figures. Not accusing you, because you can't speak for other makes but that seems to be the general trend.

Belzebutt

Is the wait a shorter for you guys when you order one, since you're closer to Japan?

dtc5

Not to bash Saab, as the new 9-5 looks cool but I really feel for the 44 poor souls that still purchased the current 9-5 last month.

And that is still crazy Toyota manage to move almost 8,000 RX

mrdeeno

Why would you feel sorry for them? They got their cars before availability ran dry...there's a shitload of people waiting in line saying "Dammit! Saab should've kept up with our demand!!!"

Moog-Type-S

So that's what you have to be wearing so that Honda/Acura vehicles will look pleasing to the eyes. I thought it was beer goggles.

dom

Colin

Yeah, in this case I'm talking about zero production for several good selling months in the middle of the year. But there are times were "availability" can be used to express not having a car that the customer wants. For example, lets say you wanted a 5AT FWD TL Tech in Black and Black. You come in and all I have are White, Gray and Silver. But I have the following Black on Black TLs: 3 Base FWD, 1 base AWD and a 6MT AWD. In the end you leave without buying anything because we didn't have what you wanted. Now, I don't know if 'availability' is the right word to describe the lost sale, it is probably going to be the one used. I guess this is when someone drives by the store and sees 30 TLs on the lot and then comes here to say that 'availability' is not a problem.

As for competitors this is correct. I don't see it here, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. The truth is, till we have something (ie. infiniti sales mgr is a board member posting his personal experiences) we won't know.


Actually it is. A long time ago (early Integra days), tney used to send our cars the the west coast and then back again. Now they've set up a port processor here to take our (and all the Honda dealers') cars off the boat, run them through customs, put owners manuals in every car, MSRP stickers on every windows and then deliver them to the stores. Of course, most people don't realize this, but Honda does not sail a half full boat. A car could have been finished on 11/30 and although it's 3 days to Honolulu, the boat may not sail till 12/15. This makes it difficult to predict exactly when the car will arrive.

cp3117

LOL.....Damn, now i know what happened to Lada.

mrdeeno

Wow, it really sounds like fishing for reasons to defend why a certain model underperforms sales-wise now.

Maybe you're right...there just aren't enough non-ugly TL's manufactured to keep up with excessive demand of non-ugly TL's...all those ugly TL's that are sitting on lots don't count as excessive availability since they're not in demand.

I guess this explains Aztek sales...there just weren't enough models with the tent option. Those thousands of Azteks that sat on the lots don't count as availability since they don't have tents...shame on GM.

Barring a major catastrophe like an explosion at a Honda factory or sinking of a ship carrying 100,000 Honda engines or whatever, "lack of availability", whether it concerns total production, or color, or options, or whatever, can and must be universally applied to explain lower than EXPECTED sales of the TL as well as ANY of its competitors. And if it's going to be universally applied to the entire segment, like how the market conditions affect the TL as well as ANY of its competitors, then why even both discussing it as a reason for why one model is doing more poorly than it should've been doing when that reason applies to everyone? Sure, there could be some regional markets where supply does not meet demand, but on a macroeconomic scale, i'm sure these markets are compensated by markets that have a much larger supply than demand and then some. Honda has never been one that was criticized for being inflexible when it comes to manufacturing and keeping up with demand wherever that demand was, so it's probably an insult to say that they can't meet demand of a mass marketed car like the TL.

Bottom line is that the previous (and universally considered NON-ugly) TL outsold most of its competitors, even NEWER versions of its competitors (and no one ever brought up "lack of availability"). The current NEWER (and almost universally considered ugly) version of the TL has NOT outsold many of its now OLDER competitors, and all of a sudden this lack of availability reasoning pops up.

Colin

Always black and white with you. I've explained several times that there are a number of problems. I've never said that availability is the ONLY issue. Why do you keep suggesting that this is the only thing I'm focused on? Styling, the economy AND availability are all problems.

Why does it seem more of a 'Acura problem' than other makes? I don't know, and I've already stated I can't speak for others. Maybe Honda/Acura customers are not the same as BMW/Merc customers and they don't want to wait 3 months for a car? Perhaps they're not 'conditioned' that this is 'how it's done' because it's never been that way in the past? Maybe Acura Finance needs to freeze the lease program at the time the car is ordered so the customers lease payment doesn't change when the car arrives?

There is a whole world of issues that I may not be aware of, but I can assure you that there are even more that you (appear to be) unwilling or unable to grasp. Anyway, I'm done repeating myself to you.

mrdeeno

maybe because out of styling or economy, or the countless many OTHER more likely reasons, you even brought up lack of availability at all and even tried defending it with "lack of available colors" or "lack of available options" in your previous post, which makes the issue of lack of availability sound even more ridiculous than it already has.


Maybe you're done repeating "lack of availability" too...let's just hope so.

Colin

I will, the day I look out on the lot and say "WTF are we going to do with all those cars?"

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

First off we appreciate your information again.

Now, business doesn't then ramp up for inventory? I can understand inventory being an issue for a month or two but this excuse is forever? That would equate to someone being fired for terrible forecasting. I recall a thread we were all in where you were basically the only one saying "no inventory" but everyone else said the exact opposite, they could see tons of cars on dealership lots just sitting there.

I remember the 2005 TL having inventory issues b/c there was HIGH DEMAND for them. Dealers were selling them as soon as they arrived. That was a supply issue. The Civic had some supply issues when gas prices skyrocketed and there was no inventory. On the contrary the Accord hybrid NEVER was in high demand. It wasn't "inventory issues" that kept it from selling. The product didn't match what people wanted.

What we are witnessing is a demand issue, there is none. Saying "lack of inventory" every month is an excuse you can use on the internet. Tell a V.P "oh sales are down b/c of inventory" he is going to strangle someone for not building enough cars. Heads will roll. A company can't just cut inventory and costs. They have to SELL PRODUCT to pay the bills. Its quite simple. No company can blame lack of inventory for too long, ESPECIALLY if they have CAPACITY to build.

Looking at the third generation forum, people are paying top dollar for a used TL-S. Again, there is still high demand for it.

So let us all get this right. You don't like to be questioned but you can question others. You also can make personal attacks (sleeping with my mother??) but you can't handle being made fun of?

You then say no one else brings data or facts but you have yet to do the same?

We are truly confused.




Makes sense.

Colin

Which is why we're sitting here scratching our heads. I can only imagine that some had too many cars, and some (like us) had too few. Acura wouldn't start the line to build 1/2 a run so they decided to wait to build one full production run the following month. Anyway, I've already said I don't know the answer, I just know what I experienced.

Will inventory be a problem forever? Not sure, but I think it will be nagging is for some time to come. I touched on this a little bit earlier, but IMO some of the problem lies with customer attitudes. IMO, Acura customers don't want to wait 3 months for "just" an Acura. They seem to feel that if "I have to wait that long, I might was well get the BMW." I mentioned it earlier too, but life was easy when you had only TL and TL with Navi. 30 cars covered every color and trim combination possible. IMO, there may be an adjustment period as dealers learn to cope with supply issues and while customers change their expectations. I'm already telling all my re-lease customers that we need to meet 3 months before your lease is due. We cannot expect to meet up 10 days before turn in, and have exactly what you want on the lot. As I said, it's an adjustment.

SpicyMikey

I agree Colin. There has clearly been a mishandling of production and dealer supply this year (as a whole) compared to past years. In fact, that's probably an understatement because I honestly don't know if they could have managed inventory any worse this year. They seem to have overreacted to the recession and under manufactured. They screwed up and made a bad situation worse.

mrdeeno

Please provide a link to your source that there were very few TL's available to be sold for the month of November and that 95% of nationwide stock was depleted.

I for one don't think it's a screwup by Honda to reduce inventory...economy was down AND demand for the current model is down for many other reasons such as it being so FUGLY, so they reduced supply in line with demand (or lack thereof). I do not believe for a second that demand is unreasonably higher than available supply though, and there aren't any waiting lists or calls from the public for "higher production, please!" to support that.

SpicyMikey

??? I didn't make that statement.

By the way, where's your sources that show they reduced supply intentionally and that it wasn't another screw up by a mismanaged division of Honda?

As far as the front and/or back being "fugly". I'm not getting sucked into that fruitless debate you guys like to have. I agree the radical rear end and grill style has hurt sales but I'm not going out on a limb and agreeing it is the main reason TL sales have been underperforming. It's probably only part of it.

mrdeeno

Can you provide a source to back up your statement:

I mean, I hope this statement is backed up by more than just anecdotal experience at one or 2, or even 10 dealerships. This would have to be a nationwide problem for Honda/Acura if it's so obvious and 'clear' that it's been a major problem.

SpicyMikey

That's better. Don't put words in my mouth.

I haven't read that anywhere. I'm going by local comments and inventory I observe in Orlando. There are 4 Acura dealers within 30 miles of me. They all had low to non existent supply of TL's since August. The SM at one of the dealers is a friend of mine and we've talked about it. My brother worked there for many years. Their concerns mirror Colin's. I was agreeing with him.

Having said that, I should probably have said "Arguably" rather than "Clearly" in my statement. Nothing is "clearly" true, including your assertions.

Now, I have responded to your aggressive questions. But I'd still like you to respond to mine. What sources do you have to show that Acura has not lost more sales than normal this year to do poorly placed and managed inventory? If you don't offer that source (or you go silent now and don't respond), then you just look like a cyber bully who likes to get in peoples faces. Man up and answer the question.

mrdeeno

My statements and opinions are from what I see and hear and can logically infer rather than just taking someone's statement and saying "oh he must be right". I don't have any sources that indicate it wasn't because of poor management that caused lower than normal sales. And I never said that it was "impossible" that the lower sales were caused by poor management either. Concerning the TL, I said it's possible that availability "may" be the cause of lower sales, but it is very unlikely. I am basing my opinions on the following:

1. The previous generations of the TL never had any availability problems and sold like hotcakes. But all of a sudden, after a major design change (and universally considered for the worse), TL sales don't perform as they used to (relative to its market segment), the most LIKELY reason is the design change.

2. The current TL did well like it's first month, but after that its performance (again, relative to its market) plummeted. If it was a production problem, it would be short lived rather than span the entire time that the TL sells poorly. This would ALSO indicate that it's not a production problem, but rather because the TL is not in demand as expected.

3. Why have no other popular models experienced the same availability problem? Honda has had supply problems when it came to critically acclaimed models (when models are in hot demand), but NEVER when a model is average or lackluster. Hell, the RL has had better reviews and compliments than the current TL. There are no reports that the TL is in such hot demand that they cannot keep up with production, and there are no reports that Honda fubarred the production schedule or anything that resulted in waiting lists for the TL. Honda is not known to be so inflexible that they can't keep up or shift production on the fly, which goes back to #2...if there was a production problem, it would be short lived. The TL sales have been lack luster, again relative to its segment, for much too long for it to be a production problem.

4. The "availability" excuse has been thrown around too much. If it was a truly valid reason, then it would definitely be "clear" (such as a factory was offline or demand is just so high for a particular model). When it's applied to a model like the TL and under these circumstances, there is NOTHING clear about it...there are SO MANY MORE likely reasons beyond "availability" that availability is one of the LEAST likely reasons (value is no longer there, design is not considered attractive, TSX has grown, competitors have grown, etc.).

bottom line is I would rather form my own opinion based on what I can infer from the past and what I see in the present, rather than what one or 2 dealers see or what someone online tells me. And my opinion is telling me the TL is not performing as well as it should MOST LIKELY because of the reasons I have given above and LEAST LIKELY from lack of availability. Hell, if you can provide evidence that it really IS lack of availability, I'll change my tune...but until then that's my opinion.

SpicyMikey

Thanks for the response. So we are both agreeing it's possible there are multiple causes but neither of us have independent expert opinion to support it.

From the info I've gathered and observed, I obviously think inventory has played a larger role than you. But that's undebatable. We'd be arguing degrees at that point and I'll be the first to agree that the scope of my data does not give me the confidence to do that.

I never made an absolute statement that it was all due to inventory. I'm not sure anyone did. Just agreeing that it seems Acura left more TL sales opportunities unfulfilled between August and December than they normally do because of being too conservitive with supply.

Colin

Looking at Florida inventory, all the dealers in the state in all the colors have the following 2009s:

10 ea. FWD TLs,
9 ea. FWD TL Tech,
5 ea. AWD TL,
0 AWD TL Tech, and
1 ea. TL HPT.

One large store alone should have twice this amount. I wonder if some of the problems with supply had something to do with the way Honda wants to build them. Maybe they don't want to run the assembly line at 1/2 speed to build 1500 cars, so the closed it for a month and just build 3000 at full speed? (the numbers are only 'for example' to show an idea)

SpicyMikey

Yes but the 2010's are also trickling in. Those numbers probably understate things. The local dealer where I do business has about dozen total TL's in stock. That's low from their typical 30+, however, I realize we are in a recession and sales are way down. Inventory would be expected to be lower, but he was complaining it was so low they couldn't provide enough choice and were losing many sales. That was mainly during the summer and fall months. Haven't talked to him in a while but 8 TL bases, 4 TL Tech's, and 1 TL 6MT sure doesn't sound like a viable inventory

mrdeeno

I'm gonna search for some inventory numbers to see what I can see...I'm not "cherry picking" any dealer that I saw with low TL inventory, I'm just picking whatever dealers come to mind here and posting what I find on their inventory thingy...

Well, the ONE dealer closest to me, Lehigh Valley Acura, has 16 FWD 2010 TL's and 11 AWD 2010 TL's in stock. This is ONE dealer. compared to a model that is unquestioningly selling well, they have 2 MDX's. this is a relatively small dealer.

The next closest dealer, Montgomeryville, has a WHOPPING 63 total 2010 TL's total in stock. Compared to a model that is unquestioningly selling well, they have 14 MDX's. This is a relatively larger dealer.

Everyone's favorite dealer in the N.E...Park Avenue Acura, has 65 total 2010 TL's in stock and ZERO MDX's in stock.

And for the sake of argument, I'm gonna pick a random dealer...let's say San Antonio for the hell of it. Gunn Acura in San Antonio has 43 total 2010 TL's, and 9 MDX's.

These were dealers that were chosen not really random, but might as well be. If I were to base my opinion on a limited region, based on these numbers wouldn't you say that it's the MDX that has suffered availability problems, and not the TL?

Considering the large disparity between the inventories of a well selling model (MDX) and a non-well selling model (TL), if availability was a problem, it's more likely to be an MDX problem than a TL problem. If MDX sales, compared to its rivals, were lower and the inventory levels are per the examples above, then I would think, yeah, inventory is likely a problem. But I have a hard time believing it's a problem for the TL on a nationwide level, and that sales of the TL really ARE underperforming for other reasons.

Maybe Park Ave. Acura can lend you half of their TL inventory...they seem to not need it.