Mercedes-Benz: AMG Declares HP Wars Over
01-14-2009, 11:44 AM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Mercedes-Benz: AMG Declares HP Wars Over
01/14/2009, 12:22 PM
Mercedes-Benz’ AMG performance brand is best known for its wildly powerful vehicles, but the division’s era of 600+ horsepower creations looks to be coming to an end. Instead, the performance brand will look to use other approaches to ensure AMG levels of performance.
Car enthusiasts have enjoyed a horsepower run over the last few years that makes a 400 horsepower car seem underpowered, but AMG boss Volker Mornhinweg warns those days are over. “The horsepower war is over,” he told Autocar. “We are going to use other ways to extract better performance, including weight saving, engine optimisation and alternative technologies.”
The move to reduce power is a direct result of more stringent emissions regulations worldwide, but that doesn’t mean AMG will be producing boring cars anytime soon. Mornhinweg indicated that the upcoming E63 AMG would be the first vehicle to display AMG’s new way of thinking, with the new performance sedan being lighter and more efficient that its predecessor — all while delivering better performance. However, the next E63 AMG is only the start of the division’s green movement, with diesels, hybrids and possibly even smaller four-cylinder models on the way.
01-14-2009, 11:56 AM
#2
The sizzle in the Steak
For now.....stay tuned.
Trending Topics
01-14-2009, 04:27 PM
#10
2G TLX-S
A couple years ago, Audi said the same thing too. But the continuous releases of new S-line and RS-line cars, with increasing engine powers, say otherwise.
01-14-2009, 05:18 PM
#12
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
improve handling a little more.. maybe..
01-14-2009, 05:45 PM
#13
I feel the need...
01-15-2009, 04:32 AM
#17
Race Director
been saying this for a bit now. It's not just that this HP war is not needed, but that the issue of diminishing returns has made anything above 400-500 HP meanigless. Going from 500 to 600 HP nets very little in terms of daily performance. The only reason for the makers or the buyer to buy something with 600 HP vs. 500 HP is bragging rights.Even at the lower end there's not much to be gained. The 30HP gained on the Infiniti G (35->37) has done virtually nothing for the car. They could have kept the G37 at 300HP and maybe gained even better mileage - but no, they had to keep up with the Joneses.
Last edited by biker; 01-15-2009 at 04:35 AM.
01-15-2009, 07:01 AM
#18
Senior Moderator
01-15-2009, 06:31 PM
#20
I'm a llama :(
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been saying this for a bit now. It's not just that this HP war is not needed, but that the issue of diminishing returns has made anything above 400-500 HP meanigless. Going from 500 to 600 HP nets very little in terms of daily performance. The only reason for the makers or the buyer to buy something with 600 HP vs. 500 HP is bragging rights.Even at the lower end there's not much to be gained. The 30HP gained on the Infiniti G (35->37) has done virtually nothing for the car. They could have kept the G37 at 300HP and maybe gained even better mileage - but no, they had to keep up with the Joneses.
01-15-2009, 11:32 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
About f'ing time. We need a weight reduction war amongst the car mfgs. When compact sedans and coupes like the C63 and M3 weigh close to 4000 lbs, what a typical S class Mercedes used to weigh in 1990, there's a serious problem.
01-16-2009, 08:17 AM
#22
Senior Moderator
But its due to all the safety devices that are mandated and all the "Options" consumers want. Teach people to look before they walk so that my car doesnt have to have pedestrian crash protection (im sure ped airbags are in the near future) and other things and im sure they can get down in weight (without having to use all sorts of expensive materials like CF and Aluminum)
01-16-2009, 09:41 PM
#24
socialism= the suck
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i work in the automotive sector. Honda been about 3 things:
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
01-19-2009, 01:05 PM
#25
I
Wth does any of this have to do with the horsepower war??? i work in the automotive sector. Honda been about 3 things:
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
01-19-2009, 02:30 PM
#26
Safety Car
i work in the automotive sector. Honda been about 3 things:
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
This has nothing to do with anything else in this post. Once again, the story of your life...you are totally irrelevant.
How you still have a job amazes me.
HA new model team.
01-19-2009, 02:37 PM
#27
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
i work in the automotive sector. Honda been about 3 things:
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
#1. Quality(building a good solid quality car) i know we all knock Honda about their trannys but compared to GM,Ford and Dodge I feel it's a better built car.
#2. Value- you got many many options when you go to buy a new car today in most sectors. for example: in the midsize sedan Accord,Fusion,Impala,Malibu, Camry, Altima, Avenger, you're running with some tough company there. so if you're going toe to toe with lets say the Altima. maybe market it 500-1000 dollars under the Altima so the consumer can buy maybe the fancy stereo or fance rims.
#3. Fuel Mileage- Fuel Mileage is the "hot ticket" now. sure the SRT-8 Charger fast car, sure it's cool to go like hell. but when gas is 4+ bucks a gallon and your doing about 20 mpg it sucks.
Here's how fuel conservation they are. I was on "new model team" of the 08 Accord. they redesigned a main bearing in it to save 0.1 mpg . would the an average consumer tell the difference between the old bearing and the bearing currently in use. probably not. that also ties in with weight. they don't go as far as using carbon fiber. but it Honda can take off 100-200 lbs a car they'll do it to save mileage.
but this ties into my next point:my predictions with car new models. when you have a new model often they roll out "the new model" in the struggling "big 3." i see them to keep engines longer. usually they'd keep some engines 1 or 2 generations(except like the 4.6 Ford or 5.3 GM or Hemi of Dodges). the reason i see the "big 3" keeping engines longer due to engineer and R and D work force being reduced so much. even body designs if you look at the 2008 or 09 Mustang to the 2010 mustang which comes up for sale here in 2 months. the styling cues are VERY VERY close. For being a "model overhaul" i don't call it a an "overhaul" more like a "good facelift" the motor got 10-15 hp boost, theres a few little things.
i see the same at Honda. we didn't cut our Engineers but we're concerned about money. before Engineers would work wild hours to have the new model "ready" for mass production around mid-end July for the next year. like right now they would be designing molds, talking with suppliers about their expectations and wants. might be doing "crash builds" if it's a new model. things like that. but a lot of car companies don't have the money to have a few hundred engineers on staff.
01-19-2009, 04:35 PM
#29
Engineer
At which point Mercedes will eventually respond. Probably a turbo or s/c setup in order to still have the power, but gain some efficiency...
01-20-2009, 02:39 AM
#30
2G TLX-S
Next spring, a 525hp 5.2L-V10 motor will drop right into the engine bay of the currently 420hp 4.2L-V8 Audi R8. Audi is not letting go any horsepower wars, if any.
01-20-2009, 04:30 AM
#31
Race Director
All of the current and future short term changes have been in the pipeline for a couple of years. Also, cars like the R8 and other exotics are somewhat immune to this - the cars we're talking about are volume models. So when the next gen M5 (or AMG E class) comes out, I doubt it'll have more than the current 500HP.
02-05-2009, 08:25 AM
#33
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Update
With AMG no longer focused on chasing big horsepower numbers, efficiency could quickly become the new performance benchmark for the Affalterbach tuner. Currently in development is a range of new diesel models, advanced lightweight materials and construction methods, as well as hybrid systems, and by next year AMG will reportedly introduce engine stop-start and direct-injection technology into its lineup.
According to AutoTelegraaf, the AMG set-up will work much like any other engine stop-start system, shutting down the engine when the vehicle sits in traffic and then kick-starting it into life once the brake pedal is released or the accelerator depressed. The direct-injection system will be based on the second-generation system already launched in the Mercedes Benz C350 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY model.
AMG has set itself an internal goal of reducing fuel consumption of its lineup 30% by 2012, but to achieve this engineers will require much more advanced technology than engine stop-start and direct-injection systems. While fuel-efficient diesels and hybrid models are still several years away, we have already seen the first implementation of AMG’s new green initiatives in vehicles like the SL65 Black Series. The car’s advanced composite materials and other weight-saving construction techniques are set to filter across to future models.
According to AutoTelegraaf, the AMG set-up will work much like any other engine stop-start system, shutting down the engine when the vehicle sits in traffic and then kick-starting it into life once the brake pedal is released or the accelerator depressed. The direct-injection system will be based on the second-generation system already launched in the Mercedes Benz C350 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY model.
AMG has set itself an internal goal of reducing fuel consumption of its lineup 30% by 2012, but to achieve this engineers will require much more advanced technology than engine stop-start and direct-injection systems. While fuel-efficient diesels and hybrid models are still several years away, we have already seen the first implementation of AMG’s new green initiatives in vehicles like the SL65 Black Series. The car’s advanced composite materials and other weight-saving construction techniques are set to filter across to future models.
02-09-2009, 05:47 PM
#36
The sizzle in the Steak
03-02-2009, 04:00 AM
#37
2G TLX-S
(High-performance AMG E-class spied ahead of Frankfurt debut)
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/902269981
Current 2009 E63-AMG : 507 hp.
Upcoming E63-AMG : rumored 525 hp.
Who said the HP wars are over ?!
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/902269981
Current 2009 E63-AMG : 507 hp.
Upcoming E63-AMG : rumored 525 hp.
Who said the HP wars are over ?!
03-02-2009, 05:50 AM
#38
Race Director
^ probably just a more truthful number of the tweaked drivetrain - I'm sure they'll claim mileage figures have gone up.
The new Mazda 3 in Europe was supposed to get a similar start/stop and DI technology.
The new Mazda 3 in Europe was supposed to get a similar start/stop and DI technology.
03-07-2009, 01:28 AM
#40
2G TLX-S
This is a good indication that even claiming that the hp wars are over, AMG will still crank up, not down, the hp numbers for it's line-ups.