tgrundke

Alfa - I wouldn't say that the TSX is $4,000 overpriced, by all appearances (sales), the current pricing structure is good. I still consider the TSX to be a very good value at the price, considering the quality of the product, the nice attention to interior detail, etc. While I would like to see the TSX start at a lower price point, if Acura continues to build value and brand awareness into the product, there will be no need for them to do so.

larchmont

"Saying that the TSX is $4000 overpriced makes as much sense as having 4000 posts."

(old proverb)

ALFA

This car was designed originaly to compete in Europe to cars that are much cheaper than the TSX. That is a fact. I don't think you can argue with that. The Jetta is a good example, camrys and Mazda 6 are others. Over here they put an Acura plate and because it was tuned for the European test it was marketed as a luxury sport sedan. But the car has much cheaper roots. It is what it is. Don't get me wrong,I think it is a great car, but to me it is overpriced. If they would have one Accord for the whole world, you would be able to by your TSX (as an Accord) for about what an EX goes for, with a discount of 2k at the dealer. The price of the TSX is artificially held in place by a limited supply.

kiteboy

You hit the nail on the head. Pricing has nothing to do with the manufacturing cost, but with what the market will bear and how Honda wants to position the product. With 18k units in 8 months, I think there may be a price increase in 2005 (or higher sales targets).

ALFA

Hi Kite, that is actually my point. The pricing on this car is justified only because of marketing, not the cost of the product. Otherwise it should be priced closer to the Accord. There is no logical reason, beyond brand perception, that the TSX can command such a premum.

tsx-mdxman

I'm sure there is a "brand premium" but your math is way off if you think it's $4000. Go to the Honda website and add HID's, homelink, 17 inch wheels and upgraded Michelins, the better interior materials in the TSX, etc, etc. to the EX V6 Accord. I seriously doubt many TSX owners on this site ever considered buying the EX 4 cylinder. The difference in price is not as large as you are implying. Also, TSX's aren't being discounted because Honda can't make enough of them to satisfy the demand right now (Econ 101), unlike the Accord.
Another thing - the European model has several variants that hit different pricepoints, from entry level to "executive." The US version has the best chassis/engine combo. Using an Accord as the basis for this terrific car is a plus in my book. Had they developed a unique chassis, we'd be looking at a $5 - $10K more expensive car. If you don't like the TSX, get an Accord!

ostrich

Alfa, please visit the UK automobile sites and look at the UK reviews of the Accord. In Europe, unlike in US, the Accord has gone "upmarket" and is competing directly against the A4, 3 series and alike. And it is getting rave reviews over there. If you compare the price over there, you will see that the Executive and Type-S sedans (both of which have a less powerful 2.4L engine than TSX, and not as luxurious as our TSX either) are priced at about 21-22,000 sterling pounds in UK, and that is equivalent to USD$35-37,000. And no, cars are not necessarily much more expensive over there in the UK these days. So I argue that we are getting a bargain for our TSX for under USD$30K!!!

The difference between a US Accord and TSX is plain and obvious, once you have driven both vehicles.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Additional costs over Accord EX-L (I-4)

Upgraded stereo amp
Upgraded and two additional speakers
HID headlights
Larger wheels
Manual transmission (unique)
Aluminum suspension pieces
Upgraded tires (even though I think they suck)
TCS (Traction Control System)
Auto Climate Control
Homelink
Heated Seats

and don't forget the outside thermometer!

There may be some that I'm missing.

So basically what we have here is Accord EX V-6 level equipment (plus some) in a TSX verus the Accord EX-L. The Accord EX-L retails for $23,500, TSX is $26,490, and the EX V-6 is $26,400.

So, in reality, the total price "premium" is only about $1000 to $1500.

Of course then there's the market. With 400,000 NA Accords prduced per year versus 20,000 TSXs produced per year there is a significant difference in market demand for these vehicles. The TSX is going to be near MSRP for quite some time unless market demands die or Honda produces more per year (they're already at capactiy for the CL9 platform).

If you don't want it, don't get it. Go buy an Accord. They are also a GREAT value and good car.

kiteboy

Welcome to capitalism 101. The logical reason is more than 15,000 people a year are willing the pay the asking price. If they can charge $26k and sell all they make, why should they charge less? It means more profit for shareholders and more to spend on cool stuff like jets and V8 RWD platforms

The Mayor

some people see the TSX as an overpriced Accord while others see it as a great bargain compared to the BMW 3-series or Lexus IS300.

i would take my TSX over the ugly Accord any day


As for pricing, they have been going down a bit now in my area.

Vans

who cares about the platform... its actually a world class platform that gets praise in Europe and over here in the U.S.

charliemike

I just did some comparison ...

The Mazda3 Hatch has 3 less hp and weighs 100lbs more than a Mini Cooper S (according to Edmunds' figures) ... The Cooper S gets to 60 in 6.5 (again Edmunds) so the Mazda3 should be around 6.9 shouldn't it?

Loaded that car is $22k with Navi ... while it is a lot of $$ if it's good enough for an RSX or Cooper S, then isn't it good enough for the 3?

bl^5

I'm getting one! Been doing research on them for a while now. The Navi is the deal maker for me. The interior looks very good too. It really helps that it is made in Japan and that Mazda has a 50K warranty.

DISRUPTV

it would be an awesome winter beater

chungkopi

nice. kinda looks like new golf

dnl2ba

The Focus actually shares honors with the TSX as members of C&D's recent 10 best.

nh-603p

Here in Canada, the TSX also has a better warranty than the Accord. The warranty is more extensive including the road side assistance. The sales here in Ontario have not been as good as Acura had been looking for though. Despite winning the hearts of many magazine editors and being a top ten car from car and driver, not allot of people walking into our showroom have heard of the TSX. I dont know much about marketing these vehicles but I have to say I have never seen the TSX on a commercial on t.v.

kiteboy

I have a TSX now and a Honda prior...

Apart from the roadside assistance, the Cdn warranty is the same. 3/60 bumper to bumper, 5/100 powertrain. If anything, it's less flexible because you can't get an extended warranty w/o roadside with Acura, whereas Honda gives you the option.

It's actually Acura US that gives the extra year of coverage.

fedlawman

One could say the same of the 325i and A4...

jcg878

I saw my first Mazda3 on the road yesterday. I have to say that it looked pretty good, and that I thought it was a shorter 6 at first with a different front.

heyitsme

December 29, 2003: 12:18 PM EST
By Lawrence Ulrich, Money magazine

By early 2005, performance junkies can expect a turbocharged Mazdaspeed 3 sports compact that should pump out at least 200 horsepower (or up to 240, if Mazda decides to offer an all-wheel-drive version). The hotted-up 3 should be followed by Mazdaspeed's take on the mid-size 6.

chef chris

I hear the new Volvo S40 will be built on this same platform.

Mokos23

all i'm wondering now is how the navi system is on the mazda 3, does it talk and is it touch screen? also, are mazdas still reliable cars?

CharlieDigital

Just to get back on topic (Mazda 3 ):

My gf has owned two Mazda's in the last 4-5 years:

1) 2000 (maybe 2001) Protege -
Good car IMO, very fun to drive (very agile) but lacking in power and refinement. Only problem she had was with the CD player. Had to replace it like 3 times

2) 2003 Mazda 6i -
Great car IMO. One word: FUN. I love driving her car, very agile and responsive (like the looks too, somewhat reminiscent of the TSX). And although you would think that it would be underpowered, it's not that bad. After her first oil change, the engine was noticeably smoother and had better "umph". So far no problems with the 6i.

As for the Mazda 3, saw it, but didn't get a chance to test drive it. Interior is really nice for the price/class IMO. Having experienced my gf's 6i, I think the 160HP in a smaller, lighter car can only up the fun factor. Compared to the 6, I actually think the 3 has a nicer interior (though no power adjust seat from what I can gether, bummer).

So yah, currently in a 2k Maxima and considering (in no particular order):

- G35 or G35x
- Acura TSX
- Acura TL (though I've read that the torque steer is horrendous)
- Mazda 3
- 2005 Volvo S40 (though I've read that Volvo reliability is not up to par)
- 2005 Subi Legacy

Seems strange to see the 3 in with those cars...but I just love the way my gf's 6 drives.

jlukja

Am I seeing things or do I detect hints of the PT Cruiser?
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/mazd...jsp?car=5&id=1

dirk

it definitely does resemble the pt cruiser in the snout area. still i think it's a great car, actually i've been leaning towards it because the tsx might be just out of price range does that mean i have to give up my memberhsip here?

dnl2ba

I saw my first Mazda3 on the road this morning when I was heading to work. Gray, southbound on Wolfe around 9:20 AM (I had to wait till 9:00 AM to pick up my new rims from the apartment office where they were delivered yesterday).

ALFA

How can anyone put a G35 and a mazda 3 in the same list? Are you shopping for a car for your dad and one for you?

CharlieDigital

I think that the performance numbers on the TSX vs. the Mazda 3 are very interesting. Certainly, this is only a point sample, but still:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=3

Mazda:
ACCELERATION (Seconds)
Zero to 30 mph: 2.3
40 mph: 3.9
50 mph: 5.5
60 mph: 7.4
70 mph: 10.2
80 mph: 13.1
90 mph: 17.4
100 mph: 22.8
110 mph: 30.1
Street start, 5-60 mph: 8.6
Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph: 11.7
50-70 mph: 11.7
Standing 1/4-mile: 16.0 sec @ 87 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 118 mph

BRAKING
70-0 mph @ impending lockup: 169 ft

HANDLING
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=3


TSX
ACCELERATION (Seconds)

Zero to 30 mph: 2.5
40 mph: 3.9
50 mph: 5.5
60 mph: 7.2
70 mph: 9.5
80 mph: 11.8
90 mph: 15.3
100 mph: 19.0
110 mph: 24.4
120 mph: 34.0
Street start, 5–60 mph: 7.7
Top-gear acceleration, 30—50 mph: 10.2
50—70 mph: 9.7
Standing 1/4-mile: 15.6 sec @ 91 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 133 mph


BRAKING

70—0 mph @ impending lockup: 185 ft
Fade: none light moderate heavy


HANDLING
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.85 g
--------------------------------------------------------------
The two are neck and neck right up to ~60 mph where I assume VTEC kicks in and pulls the TSX to a first place finish. Otherwise the Mazda is better in the braking department (probably due to lighter weight) and the lateral g's.

Don't feel too bad if the TSX is just out of your price range. I think the 3 is a fine car, the best in it's price range.

CharlieDigital

No. The fact is, there is no substitute for a light car. Yah, the G35 and Mazda 3 are in two totally different classes and appeal to totally different markets, but I can't get over how much fun my gf's 6i is to drive. I can only imagine that it would be even more fun to have the same engine/tranny in a car that's ~300 lb's lighter.

On the other hand, I have a pretty decent job (I can afford a G) and I currently own a 2000 Maxima (so I may miss the torque and power if I get a 3).

I think notebook owners can relate: do you buy the thin and light because it's portable and easy to take with you (at the sacrifice of power and features) or do you buy the top of the line, "all in one" laptop that is somewhat bulky and much less portable? Depends.

Mokos23

if i wasn't living in a snow climate i would've bought the G35 coupe man instead of the Tsx.

matteichenfels

i think this is beautiful...i'd buy one in a heartbeat

NOVAwhiteTypeS

just saw one on the road, kinda looked like the 6 through my rear view mirror but after it passed by kinda looked unique

gavriil

Hot Mazda 3 On The charge - - By Chris Thorp - - Source: Autoexpress

gavriil

The above article comes from England where MazdaSpeed cars get the MPS denotation. So the turbo Mazda 3 is probably happening in Europe as well. Good for them.

Time For Sleeep

I love how it looks.

Anyone else think the front grille looks 2nd gen CL-esque?

Sarlacc

turboed...AWD....Mazda 3......hello good autoX car.

goldmemberer

Completely agreed. The grille reminds me of my car a lot, actually. Especially the subtle shadow it casts on the front bumper. It makes me like this car even more

goldmemberer

I wish they make it AWD with good weight distribution... and keep it light </dream>

Sarlacc

^ It would seem the only genius realizing they to start making their cars lighter is BMW....and vw with the new GTI....

But bimmer gets the smart guy award.....lighten the car......everyone else is trying to just uses more hp.