J.D. Power: Initial Quality News
06-18-2010, 02:28 PM
#121
Senior Moderator
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/18/t...ein/#continued
But over the years, J.D. Power – now a subsidiary of media giant McGraw-Hill – has revised its approach. Today, the highly-influential Initial Quality Study also counts things that don't fall into the classic defect category. But is a poorly designed cupholder or an uncomfortable seat really the same sort of problem as a blown engine?
Perhaps the name, Initial Quality Survey is a bit misleading, as it still draws to mind a measurement of actual mechanical defects. But quality, like art, is in the eyes of the beholder. And today's car buyer is less likely to differentiate between actual mechanical problems and something that is just poorly defined and engineered. So, while the IQS has evolved significantly, over the years, it remains a significant metric that shouldn't be ignored.
Perhaps the name, Initial Quality Survey is a bit misleading, as it still draws to mind a measurement of actual mechanical defects. But quality, like art, is in the eyes of the beholder. And today's car buyer is less likely to differentiate between actual mechanical problems and something that is just poorly defined and engineered. So, while the IQS has evolved significantly, over the years, it remains a significant metric that shouldn't be ignored.
06-18-2010, 03:33 PM
#122
Suzuka Master
11K miles at 3 years on the C2S and bulletproof. Hope this run continues until I trade up to the 998.
06-18-2010, 04:08 PM
#123
The sizzle in the Steak
No wonder the Germans suck at Initial Quality Study....they are getting dinged for cup holder design 
06-18-2010, 11:35 PM
#124
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06-19-2010, 10:24 AM
#125
Oh my God, I was at a Mercedes dealer a couple of weeks ago with my Dad looking at some C and E classes! I couldn't believe how freakin low to the ground they were! I thought our 3G TLs were to the ground, little did I know that was nothing compared to where Mercedes has gone with the C and E classes with ground clearance!
06-22-2010, 12:45 AM
#126
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I think the the #1 ranking for Porsches are little misleading. People that own Porsches do not drive it everyday. I have friends that only drive their Porsches on the weekends. Of course you are gonna have less problems & defects if you drive your vehicles less.
06-22-2010, 12:48 AM
#127
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Just because they cost $2g to open the hoods at a dealer doesnt mean they are unreliable cars.
06-22-2010, 12:57 AM
#129
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Any other "educated opinions" you care to share?
06-22-2010, 07:41 AM
#130
AZ Community Team
My brother has a Cayenne Turbo and yes, drives it everyday.
06-22-2010, 07:46 AM
#131
AZ Community Team
They share some major components (structural, floorpan, frame rails, some suspension,...) but there are major differences (different powertrains, electronics, interior,...). There are so many differences that VW and Porsche have different supply chain management systems at the factory. And more importantly they manage their vendors differently from a quality point of view. The Toureg has had numerous quality issues but the Cayenne's have been better depsite being more complicated in it's systems. Cayenne's are not equal to Toureg's, plain and simple.
06-22-2010, 02:18 PM
#132
Suzuka Master
Of course it's 80 degrees year round here in the 808. Your point may be valid in other climates.
06-22-2010, 02:47 PM
#133
Safety Car
Mercedes
For the first time in 21 years, Mercedes-Benz beat Lexus in one of the industry's most watched initial quality studies. Now it's aiming for the top overall spot.
In the 2010 J.D. Power and Associates U.S. Initial Quality Survey, Mercedes was third, up from sixth in 2009. Lexus plunged from the top slot in 2009 to fourth this year. Porsche AG was first, followed by Honda Motor Co.'s Acura division.
J.D. Power has been conducting the survey for 24 years, and Mercedes-Benz was quality king before Lexus arrived in the United States in 1989. Mercedes was first in initial quality in 1987, dropped to second place in 1988, regained the crown in 1989 and lost it to Lexus in 1990.
In recent years -- especially since the arrival of Mercedes-Benz USA CEO Ernst Lieb -- Daimler AG's Mercedes brand has been hellbent on regaining its premier status in the luxury-car world.
It has overhauled dealer relations, improved manufacturing and engineering, and finetuned other processes to deliver what Mercedes executives describe as "the dream" for customers.
"Are we happy? 3rd is not 1st," Lieb told employees and dealers in a taped address last week. "We are going to try and work hard to be first next year."
Mercedes is also closing in on Lexus as the top-selling luxury brand in the U.S. market. Through May, Lexus sales' stood at 90,098 units, just ahead of Mercedes with sales of 88,010, according to the Automotive News Data Center. BMW is third with year-to-date sales of 81,450 units.
Daimler and Mercedes executives admit they took their eye off Mercedes quality during the tumultuous Chrysler era. In 2006 Mercedes fell to a low of 25th in the J.D. Power ranking.
Lexus has been the leader in the quality study 13 times since 1990. And a J.D. Power official says the brand's tumble wasn't because its quality deteriorated significantly, or because of recalls or the woes of Toyota, its parent company.
David Sargent, vice president global vehicle research for J.D. Power, says Lexus fell in the survey results because “others just got better.”
So what did Mercedes do? It had nearly flawless launches of two redesigned vehicles, the C-class and E-class sedans. And Mercedes made the current-generation M-class SUV nearly bulletproof in its final year, before a redesigned model goes on sale.
“What moved the needle is each (of those three models) improved significantly, and together they are two-thirds of Mercedes-Benz [U.S.] sales,” says Sargent.
“Mercedes Benz has showed good steady improvement, and one of the challenges is they have do it with so many different models.”
In the 2010 study, five Mercedes models placed among the top three in their respective segments.
At Lexus, where there are significantly fewer models, the decline in the quality study wasn't the result of any major problems. In fact, the changes in individual vehicle scores “were fairly marginal,” says Sargent.
The perception of Lexus wasn't clouded significantly by the Toyota recalls. J.D. Power begins its model-year surveys in November and includes vehicles sold through February of the following year. New-car buyers get their surveys three months after their purchase, which means November 2009 buyers answered the questionnaire in February 2010. Only the last wave of Lexus buyers received the questionnaire in May, when Toyota was being grilled in Congress about its safety problems.
06-22-2010, 05:19 PM
#134
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Glad to see the strides they're making, and I hope they are putting this much effort into reliability as well.
I'd already call a Mercedes or BMW reliable. Audis generally aren't bad, but they still aren't there.
I'd already call a Mercedes or BMW reliable. Audis generally aren't bad, but they still aren't there.
06-23-2010, 02:20 AM
#135
Three Wheelin'
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(Obviously everyone has their own experiences, but the list above speaks volumes...and note: we're all from Southern California...Orange and LA Counties).
06-23-2010, 01:47 PM
#136
Suzuka Master
^Damn, guess I'll cross R8 off my wishlist. Unfortunately, VW/Audi/Porsche is one big happy family now but I optimistically hope that Porsche continues to maintain it's dependability.
06-23-2010, 01:54 PM
#137
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VW/Audi is like Apple...you have lovers and haters with nary an in between.
For everyone who has an issue that Type34 listed...A person who loves VW/Audi and has been a happy owner with no troubles.
I have a friend here in SoCal who had a Jetta TDI, traded it for a Toureg, and now drives a A3. No issues with any of them.
06-23-2010, 06:05 PM
#139
I tend to lean on the pessimistic side of the fence when it comes to VW/Audi. I see quite a few of the new models with the slick LEDs in the headlights...and one side is blown out already. And that's on top of seeing older models with blown out taillights too. If they can't even get those right, I can only imagine the other mechanical gremlins that might be present.
06-23-2010, 07:18 PM
#140
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If you're seeing a turn signal, they aren't blown out. The led turns off on the headlight when the blinker is on...
And I see more taillights out on mercs than vws...
And I see more taillights out on mercs than vws...
06-23-2010, 07:41 PM
#141
I'll pay attention next time I spot one. I do recall the car was going in the opposite direction so I would not think the blinker would be turned on.
06-23-2010, 08:43 PM
#142
Nice little tid bit of information to know!
06-27-2010, 02:13 PM
#144
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I believe there is a correlation between initial quality to the long-term dependability/reliability. It may not always be true in terms of cause and effect/outcome, however, i believe there is a linear relationships between these two factors.
If you look at the long-term dependability of these cars, most of them also appear on initial quality survey.
If you look at the long-term dependability of these cars, most of them also appear on initial quality survey.
06-27-2010, 03:01 PM
#146
You are correct. There is strong correlation between the IQS and VDS results. For example, there's 80% correlation between the IQS and VDS for 2007 model year cars; i.e., the 2007 IQS compared to the 2010 VDS. Eight of the IQS top-ten brands at 90 days were VDS top-ten brands at 3 years, and 7 of the IQS bottom ten were also among the bottom ten on the VDS.
Take example of my case with many many GM products over a 30 year time frame of buying from them. On the good majority of my vehicles, nothing happened in the first 3 years of the car's life under warranty. Almost like clock work, things would begin falling apart or break around the 4 and 5 year mark and would not becovered since it was out of the 3 year warranty already.
If JD Power surveyed me for initial quality and at the 3 year mark for dependability I would have given the cars great/high ratings but if they had come back at say the 5 or 6 year mark, it would have been a whole different rating and the long-term reliability would have been ranked low for GM.
This is why the studies are pretty meaningless in general because MOST cars are on their best best behavior the first 3 or 4 years, and then show true colors at the 5 and 6 year mark, in general of course. You can't really know what long-term reliability is going to be like until the car is 5+ years old, typically not even till it might be 7, and since JD Power doesn't survey during those years of the vehicles life, we really have no way of knowing how reliable this initial quality and dependability BS is! Thats all propaganda that car manufacturers use to stroke their ego and use in marketing, though, it proves nothing.
I think most common sense people, really have long-term reliability in the back of their head when getting a car purchase, not how nice the car is the first 90 days of ownership.
Last edited by smarty666; 06-27-2010 at 03:05 PM.
06-27-2010, 03:58 PM
#147
Race Director
06-27-2010, 04:16 PM
#148
Not necessarily, your talking to a person who has leased the last lot of this automobiles and to tell you the truth I do keep long-term reliability in the back of my mind, even when I lease.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm not one of these people how has to lease and have something new every 3 years. If I really like a car, have had no problems with it, and the buyout is fair and affordable I have no problem with buying the car at the end of the lease. That being said, when I go to lease, I keep that in the back of my head, is this vehicle one that is above avg in long term reliability? If not, I won't even think of leasing it.
But as I said, I might be in the minority.
Unfortunately for me, I had problems with my 08 TL which give me a bad omen about keeping it. In hindsight, I would have kept and bought my 06 TL, which was problem free, if I had known what I was going to go through on my 08!
My FX35 was a lease, which I bought at the end because of how much I liked it, how problem free it was and still is, and because the buyout was good.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm not one of these people how has to lease and have something new every 3 years. If I really like a car, have had no problems with it, and the buyout is fair and affordable I have no problem with buying the car at the end of the lease. That being said, when I go to lease, I keep that in the back of my head, is this vehicle one that is above avg in long term reliability? If not, I won't even think of leasing it.
But as I said, I might be in the minority.
Unfortunately for me, I had problems with my 08 TL which give me a bad omen about keeping it. In hindsight, I would have kept and bought my 06 TL, which was problem free, if I had known what I was going to go through on my 08!
My FX35 was a lease, which I bought at the end because of how much I liked it, how problem free it was and still is, and because the buyout was good.
06-27-2010, 04:28 PM
#149
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This is why the studies are pretty meaningless in general because MOST cars are on their best best behavior the first 3 or 4 years, and then show true colors at the 5 and 6 year mark, in general of course. You can't really know what long-term reliability is going to be like until the car is 5+ years old, typically not even till it might be 7, and since JD Power doesn't survey during those years of the vehicles life, we really have no way of knowing how reliable this initial quality and dependability BS is! Thats all propaganda that car manufacturers use to stroke their ego and use in marketing, though, it proves nothing.
If, as you claim, there's is no data after 3 years, then the logical conclusion is that we don't know what relationship, if any, there is between initial quality and reliability at say 5 or 7 years. In other words, you can't logically claim that the initial quality survey is meaningless BS without data. I have already shown that the IQS is a good predictor of reliability for at least the first three years, so it's clearly not meaningless.
The other thing is that reliablity data for 5 or 7 year-old cars has very limited utility to new car buyers. Most cars will have been completely redesigned by the time that data becomes available. The rest will have had several design changes and production fixes.
06-27-2010, 09:32 PM
#150
We already know that cars have more problems as they age, so that's not the question we're trying to answer. The issue is whether there is a relationship between the problem rates when they are relatively new and when they are older. The data shows that the answer is absolutely yes, at least up to 3 years. Brands with low problem rates at 90 days generally also have relatively low problem rates at 3 years. The data confirms intuition, and I would surmise that the relationship holds true for some period beyond 3 years.
If, as you claim, there's is no data after 3 years, then the logical conclusion is that we don't know what relationship, if any, there is between initial quality and reliability at say 5 or 7 years. In other words, you can't logically claim that the initial quality survey is meaningless BS without data. I have already shown that the IQS is a good predictor of reliability for at least the first three years, so it's clearly not meaningless.
The other thing is that reliablity data for 5 or 7 year-old cars has very limited utility to new car buyers. Most cars will have been completely redesigned by the time that data becomes available. The rest will have had several design changes and production fixes.
If, as you claim, there's is no data after 3 years, then the logical conclusion is that we don't know what relationship, if any, there is between initial quality and reliability at say 5 or 7 years. In other words, you can't logically claim that the initial quality survey is meaningless BS without data. I have already shown that the IQS is a good predictor of reliability for at least the first three years, so it's clearly not meaningless.
The other thing is that reliablity data for 5 or 7 year-old cars has very limited utility to new car buyers. Most cars will have been completely redesigned by the time that data becomes available. The rest will have had several design changes and production fixes.
I don't agree with your last explanation either. Long-term reliability data, such as reported in CR long term reliability charts for each model, are a great way for new car buyers to see if their are any possible reliability patterns in regards to a model or a certain brand. Also, I think your generalizing. Even if cars get redesigned, new technology or features are added and new problems prop up so they don't all get worked out and just disappear simply because a model is redesigned. All these points I think the well informed and car savy auto shopper is researching, looking, and thinking about before purchasing anything. If anything, I think more car buyers are concerned with long term reliability, after 5 years, considering they'll keep their vehicles that long and don't care as much of what happens the 1st 3 years since they'll be covered under warranty and everything will be covered.
Even if your correct about the initial and 3 year dependability correlation, it really then would have no benefit in helping new car buyers who keep their vehicles more than 3 years, which is most people, and really, as someone else pointed out, really only then helps out people who lease.
I'm very skeptical of JD Power's reports, maybe except for their customer service satisfaction one, in using that as a sole determination of any quality. As others have already pointed out, several of their rankings seem funky, ie Chevy ranked above Buick, Subaru ranked so low when it is much higher in dependability/reliability, and Audi above BMW to name a few. When dependability and reliability would prove otherwise. These suspicious ranks coupled with the trivial criteria some people report to JD Power, and with the exception examples I gave, prove little to me in correlation between the two. Plus, if someone reports a crappy cup holder at 45 days, that hurts that brand, but then nothing else happens the first 3 years, that is a mark against that automaker when it shouldn't be. You can see now where the holes can be.
Like CR, JDP is to be used as a guide to give consumers an indication of CHANCE or LUCK of them getting a problem model from a specific automaker. Whole point is, use other sources along with JDP to determine automotive quality, depandability, and use CR and other sources for long-term reliability.
07-07-2010, 11:41 PM
#151
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MB removed some features from their cars (like customizable driver's settings to the key) because people weren't using it right or the sales people weren't showing them so they were getting dinged by JD.
07-08-2010, 10:32 AM
#152
Agreed! Was at a local Mercedes and BMW stealerships this past weekend and was looking at the E-class and new 5-series. At 60k for the E-class, it was missing several luxury features and comforts that the new 5-series had at 58k. Plus, the ground clearance of the new 5 was much better than the E. I'd be in the new 5-series in a heartbeat before the E.
07-08-2010, 03:48 PM
#153
My only car is a Bus
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There's an ass for every seat!
Agreed! Was at a local Mercedes and BMW stealerships this past weekend and was looking at the E-class and new 5-series. At 60k for the E-class, it was missing several luxury features and comforts that the new 5-series had at 58k. Plus, the ground clearance of the new 5 was much better than the E. I'd be in the new 5-series in a heartbeat before the E.
06-23-2011, 01:40 PM
#156
Safety Car
2011
Well, that didn't last long.
1 year after domestic manufacturers finally topped the J.D. Power and Associate's Initial Quality Study, imports are back in the drivers seat.
Lexus, Honda, Acura, Mercedes-Benz and Mazda were the top nameplates in this year's annual and influential study, which included feedback from more than 70,000 customers who purchased 2011 model-year vehicles.
Ford, widely lauded after climbing to 5th-place in last year's study, dropped precipitously as customers complained about the newly-introduced MyFord Touch system, which proved overly complicated and occasionally unreliable.
"Ford has been pushing the envelope in terms of technology in the mass market," David Sargent, vice president of global vehicle research at J.D. Power, said today during a press conference at the Detroit Atheltic Club. "In the long term, it's a good idea. In the short term, it's given them some headaches."
Customers reported an increased number of complaints about audio, entertainment and navigation systems amongst all brands -- not just Ford, as automakers struggled to meet the growing demand for new technology.
"Clearly, consumers are interested in having new technology in their vehicles, but automakers must ensure that the technology is ready for prime time," said Sargent. "...There is an understandable desire to bring these technologies to market quickly, but automakers must be careful to walk before they run."
While Ford quality rankings suffered as a whole, the automaker took home 2 segment awards for the popular Tauras and F-150, with the latter ranking among the highest-quality vehicles in the entire study.
General Motors faired better, with Cadillac and GMC ranking as the only domestic nameplates to top the industry average for initial quality. The Chevrolet Tahoe , HHR and Cadillac Escalade each earned segment awards.
"Escalade's highest-in-segment leadership showcases Cadillac's commitment to our customers," said Don Butler, vice president of Cadillac Marketing. "We're now focused on continuing and expanding our brand's quality improvement in every segment in which we compete."
Chrysler, meanwhile, earned mixed marks after introducing several new vehicles in 2011, many of which outperformed older offerings. Customers gave the Chrysler brand decent marks, but Ram, Jeep and Dodge each fared poorly. Dodge earned the dubious distinction as the least-reliable nameplate in the study, yet the Challenger earned the highest marks in the midsized sports car segment.
"Most automakers, including Chrysler Group, find it challenging to maintain quality levels when launching vehicles with a significant amount of new content," Doug Betts, Chrysler Groups senior vice presient of quality, said in a released statement. "It’s a big accomplishment for our employees and supplier partners to achieve these initial quality results when so many of our 2011 model year launches coincided with the IQS survey period."
06-23-2011, 02:10 PM
#157
Safety Car
Honda
The Honda brand earned its best-ever ranking in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) for 2011, finishing 2nd among all surveyed brands, including premium makes, the company announced today. Honda also led the industry with 7 models earning the highest initial quality ranking in their respective segments, including its top-selling Accord and Civic models.
The Acura brand finished 3rd overall in the 2011 IQS.
In the manufacturing realm, the 2011 study recognized 3 Honda plants for superior quality, including Honda's newest U.S. auto plant in Greensburg, Ind. Honda Manufacturing of Indiana, producing the Civic Sedan, was 1 of only 3 plants around the world to earn the Platinum Plant Quality Award. The Suzuka, Japan plant, line 1, earned a Silver Plant Quality Award, Asia Pacific (tie), for production of Civic and Insight, while the East Liberty, Ohio, plant took home a Bronze Plant Quality Award, North/South America, for production of the Accord Crosstour, CR-V and Element.
"Creating products of the highest quality and value is the foundation of our business, and it begins with a deep understanding of the customer," said Tetsuo Iwamura, president & CEO of American Honda Motor Co., Inc. "These results are an important demonstration of our focus on the customer and the tireless efforts put forth by Honda associates throughout our organization—in R&D, in manufacturing and in sales—to exceed their high expectations of Honda and Acura."
Of the 7 Honda models earning the highest initial quality score in their segment – the most segment leaders of any brand – 5 were manufactured in North America: the Civic (compact car); the Element (compact crossover SUV—followed by the CR-V in 2nd place); the Accord (midsize car); the Accord Crosstour (midsize crossover SUV); and the Ridgeline (midsize pickup). Those 5 models were joined on the 2011 segment leader list by the Insight hybrid (compact car, tie) and Honda Fit (sub-compact car).
Honda automobiles made in North America are produced using domestic and globally-sourced parts.
J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study serves as an important tool for consumers in evaluating the quality and design of new vehicles. Since 1987, J.D. Power and Associates has been surveying owners to measure the initial quality of new vehicles after the 1st 90 days of ownership.
06-24-2011, 03:39 AM
#160
I shoot people
so Ram isn't under Dodge? 
