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I personally feel insaulted by this as an USAmerican citizen

 
Old 07-02-2003, 10:51 PM
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I personally feel insaulted by this as an USAmerican citizen

This is the 14th Annual reader's survey from Autoweek. Excluding the pick-up trucks, every other vehicle there is an import. This is not about patriotism; this is about sense and logic. How can Porsche make 3 vehicles and 2 of them making this list? How can BMW be winning 4 categories?

http://autoweek.com/specials/2003_am...ICASBEST03.pdf

I am just thinking that readers did not vote which car is best, but which car they wish they owned. Shame on GM and Ford. Pathetic and disgusting.
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Old 07-03-2003, 06:41 AM
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Re: I personally feel insaulted by this as an USAmerican citizen

Originally posted by gavriil
This is the 14th Annual reader's survey from Autoweek. Excluding the pick-up trucks, every other vehicle there is an import. This is not about patriotism; this is about sense and logic. How can Porsche make 3 vehicles and 2 of them making this list? How can BMW be winning 4 categories?

http://autoweek.com/specials/2003_am...ICASBEST03.pdf

I am just thinking that readers did not vote which car is best, but which car they wish they owned. Shame on GM and Ford. Pathetic and disgusting.
The key is for the US mfgs. to stop making junk. I drove a Chevy for the 1st time in years this May while on vacation, rental car. What a piece of crap. Ran OK, at least they've got that now, but it was like driving the living room sofa. Ergonomically uncomfortable. Was very happy to get back to my car.
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Old 07-03-2003, 10:34 AM
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Re: Re: I personally feel insaulted by this as an USAmerican citizen

Originally posted by Starter
The key is for the US mfgs. to stop making junk. I drove a Chevy for the 1st time in years this May while on vacation, rental car. What a piece of crap. Ran OK, at least they've got that now, but it was like driving the living room sofa. Ergonomically uncomfortable. Was very happy to get back to my car.


I know some people who blame the import makers for the decline in the American auto market. Get a clue. This is free enterprise. If you build a substandard product, people aren't going to buy it. I'd love to buy American...I'm more patriotic than the next guy. But I will not encourage a company that makes poor products. Domestic auto makers: make a car worth buying and I'll buy it.
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Old 07-03-2003, 10:38 AM
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They still aren't made to overseas quality, after 20 years of import competition, they haven't learned.

For example, I happen to like Nissan. They build plenty of cars in the US now ...new Max, Altima, etc. I've owned 3 Max's in the past & have to say...after a full test drive and thorough review of the new(american made) Max....it is built like crap. Body panels are uneven, etc. I just don't think the auto wokers in this country give a damn or have the pride the foreign workers do. My 2 cents.
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Old 07-03-2003, 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by chris3240929
I just don't think the auto wokers in this country give a damn or have the pride the foreign workers do. My 2 cents.
hmm...this has got me thinking...

The domestic automakers have had serious competition from imports for years now and because of this, the domestics are getting better but they still aren't on par with over seas. What I'm wondering is...What if we tried our best and our best isn't good enought? What then?
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Old 07-03-2003, 01:34 PM
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Ahhhhaaaaaaa.......

Maybe us Americans are just too fat & lazy to do a quality job...


Seriously though, there's a good point there. We can excell in other fields, but when it comes to building autos...we suck donkey tits. Maybe we need more trained, better educated auto workers.

My personal belief is that the UAW has single-handedly ruined US quality. With all their union BS & strikes...they pretty much have the auto industry by the balls. Now, if an automaker demands better quality from their employees (which every other business in the world does & has the right to do),,, they'll just cry "unfair treatment" & yell strike. They've ratched up the average workers salary so much, we'll be paying over $30K for a Focus if we demanded quality cars now...



Originally posted by AcuraFan
hmm...this has got me thinking...

...What I'm wondering is...What if we tried our best and our best isn't good enought? What then?
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Old 07-03-2003, 01:56 PM
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the results seem ok to me. its a shame about the vette, 50 years strong, that car should be on top.

as far as the maxima, 1st year production, i wouldn't buy any car from any country in the first year, nobody is perfect. a ton of cars from toyota were on the recomended list in consumer reports except for the first year production of the 4runner.

and then we bring in the unions, nissan doesn't use union workers yet they still have growing pains, so there goes that. i think its the company, if you have a company that is unwilling to compromise quality, their cars are going to be on the top of the list no matter what country they're built in-we all know which company that is. although quality comes at a cost so there has to be a balance.

http://mysite.verizon.net/romano.michael/QualityGap.JPG

when it comes down to it i don't think its right to blame us workers for shitty us auto companies. gm workers have already proven that they can build a car to european or in some cases japanese standards, but the real probelm still remains-their cars have lousy designs and materials when for equal prices there are better choices.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:04 PM
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I think labor unions are infact responsible for a lot of our industrial problems in this country. I think a lot of American companies look overseas because they can't afford the pissy workforces forming (or joining) unions.
I think Americans do take pride in their work. But their desire to cut corners and only work as much as they have to is stronger than that pride.
The Japanese industrial social structure is just designed better and get better results.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by heyitsme

when it comes down to it i don't think its right to blame us workers for shitty us auto companies. gm workers have already proven that they can build a car to european or in some cases japanese standards, but the real probelm still remains-their cars have lousy designs and materials when for equal prices there are better choices.
This is also true.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:08 PM
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Which ones?

Originally posted by heyitsme
...when it comes down to it i don't think its right to blame us workers for shitty us auto companies. gm workers have already proven that they can build a car to european or in some cases japanese standards, but the real probelm still remains-their cars have lousy designs and materials when for equal prices there are better choices.
Which car did they do this with? I don't remember GM(of all companies) putting out anything that competes with the import market. As a matter of fact, isn't GM the one who's buying Honda V-6's to put in the Saturn Vue...?
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:37 PM
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i'm going off the initial quality link i posted. the workers on the line aren't responsible for cars competing, crappy materials, dated style, mechanicals, etc., only putting the screws in and the cadillac brand managed to squeeze between lexus and infiniti at doing that.

gm is getting honda v6's in exchange for gm/isuzu diesel engines. its a way of offsetting costs. its most likely much much cheaper to buy engines from honda, than it would to change engineering deadlines on new powertrains in development for future cars-like the new 3.6v6 going in the cts or i-4/i-5 based off gms i-6 which made it into wards ten best.

uaw may have its problems, but its not like us unions are the only ones with problems. http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=6840
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:55 PM
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Don't blame our Unions. Germany's unions are on par or worse.

It is funny, American car market share has been eroding for OVER 20 years and these idiots STILL can't figure it out?

Are they that dumb? How DUMB do you have to be to not figure out what we want? These idipts are paid 6-7 figures and can't figure out what we want while Toyota, Honda etc steal market share.

Idiots, plain and simple. What American car, besides the Corvette is really serious import competition????? I ain't talking about trucks.

It's not all Japanese cars. Nissan, Mitsu etc are not quality vehicles. I find Nissan quality nowadays to be worse than American cars. Panel gaps, cheap paint, shitty interiors, look at the Altima/Maxima/350Z interior, the Frontier has exposed screws. They just look nice. They are average. BMW does make fun cars, so they will win lots of contests but try owning one.

Toyota may make boring cars but their attention to detail is like no other. They take this from the factories in Japan and applied it successfully here. So it's the COMPANY, and the MANAGEMENT. Lastly its the workers. If management doesn't have a clue, how can u blame workers.
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:05 PM
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I dont this thing is about quality. This is about more thank quality on USAmerican cars. It's about ergonomics like someone said and other things that make a car pleasant to drive and own.
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:45 PM
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I dont this thing is about quality. This is about more thank quality on USAmerican cars. It's about ergonomics like someone said and other things that make a car pleasant to drive and own.
As much as I and we like looking at cars, we sit inside them. Amercan interiors except the Auruora or STS suck. Panel gaps, jugly gray hues, cheap plastic, you feel like your purchase was made cause it was cheaper.

Japanese/German companies (some more than others) study leather/cloth/dash hues and what is pleasing to the eye and brain. What matches. What makes you feel comfortable. What feels comfortable. Some car companies make sure all their openings and vents open at the same speed. Lil stuff adds up.

I sit in a Grand Am or Impala and I feel like I am stuck in a big tupperware car. Ergonomics, the G35 has their dials on the other side and seat controls on the INSIDE of the seat to save money from making it Americanized to our side.

Even the GTO, as great as I think it will be, is not an American car.

I just can't fathom how for 20 years, basically nothing was done. Yeah American cars are better then before but the ONLY exciting cheap car now is the SRT-4. They NEED more cars that like that, all of them.


GM and Ford have squeezed suppliers so tight by the nuts, they can't help BUT make sorry crap. Heck outside of Caddilac, American paint ain't worth 2 sh!ts.

American cars have failed in Japan, their too big for Europe and we are in trouble.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:02 PM
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american cars suck dick :o
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by ricardo
american cars suck dick :o
Really? You know, Volvo, Saab and Aston are also USAmerican. Do they still suck?
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:18 PM
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I don't think the problem is an assembly problems at all. So the unions wouldn't really be a factor.

I think the problem stems from poor engineering/ergonomics and the use of substandard supplier parts. Have you ever noticed that American cars (on average) tend to have many more sensor problems than Japanese cars?

Another point- For years, Toyota manufactured the Camry in Japan and the USA. When dealers took delivery of a shipment of Camrys, you could always tell which ones were from overseas, because the rotors would have protective shells over them, the side mirrors were not installed etc.... The Camrys made in the USA were no better or worse in quality than the same exact car made in Japan. So I guess our American auto workers are screwing them together pretty well
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Old 07-03-2003, 11:39 PM
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I still believe there is a definite gap in "pride of product" that we do not/have not instilled in US auto manufacturers. If a worker sees a problem, gap, big scratch, etc with the car...he should have the work ethic to fix the problem before it leaves the plant. It's a simple matter of giving a shit about your work, your company & pride of knowing you're doing your best. That 04 Maxima I saw was right off the truck & the fucking door gap was about 1/2 inch at the bottom. You could see it from 30 feet away. It just seems that the workers here care more about their salary & benefits than providing valuable service for their compensation.

Now, as far as the US not keeping up style/options-wise, I think that has to do more with trying to squeeze too much out of every car. They try to cover too many segments with one model... take the Cavalier for example. When you water your models down to appeal to the greatest commom denominator, you're bound to have a bland, cheap & unexciting vehicle.(Read: Quantity, not Quality)

Now, a good example of a company taking some risks...Mazda. Look at their Protege5, the new supercharged Protege & the new 6 sedan... sporty, but not too sporty. All seem to serve their own niche & can be considered pretty interesting vehicles(not to mention well priced).
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Old 07-06-2003, 02:20 PM
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And technically our car is american. Designed and built here.

Lots of other good american cars. Just so many jaded thinking people.
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Old 07-06-2003, 04:17 PM
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Yeah, even our cars

are rattle-monsters. They are built "ok"... Better than Ford, GM or Chrysler, but not better than the rest of the real imports. When I start to see Honda/Nissan build their motors in the US...with US workers...with the SAME quality you have now, then I'll change my thinking.


Originally posted by SiGGy
And technically our car is american. Designed and built here.

Lots of other good american cars. Just so many jaded thinking people.
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:14 PM
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Re: Yeah, even our cars

Originally posted by chris3240929
When I start to see Honda/Nissan build their motors in the US...with US workers...with the SAME quality you have now, then I'll change my thinking.
they already are, even the lexus rx330 v6 engine and transmission are being built in west virginia - think toyota takes lexus quality very seriously so us workers must be doing something right to get this honor.
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Old 07-07-2003, 08:40 AM
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bmw, bmw, bmw, (YAWN) bmw, bmw....

good god, is it possible for BMW to make anything that every car mag wont bust a nut on?? im sorry, but a Z06 is a much better "sport coupe" than a fucking m3. m3 is a pimp ride, no doubt, but when SPECIFICALLY tlaking about the "sport" aspect and not the luxury or anything else, the Z06 slaughters that thing across the board.

and who the fuck is responsible for the pick of the best SUV??? that new porsche?? give me a break, first of all, no long term testing has been done, that thing COULD have an achilies heel like the acura tranny, you never know. additionally, who the fuck is going to use their new porsche SUV for any type of off roading, towing, utility work, etc. give me a break, they based that choice on looks and luxury...but sorry, an SUV, by nature, has nothing to do with looks, luxury, class, etc. it has to to with SPORT and UTILITY. that porsche thing has NO UTILITY whatsoever, its a luxury vehicle that will never touch an offroad course or pull tree stumps out of the ground like all the TRUE SUV's that we make here in america
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by jimcol711
bmw, bmw, bmw, (YAWN) bmw, bmw....

good god, is it possible for BMW to make anything that every car mag wont bust a nut on?? im sorry, but a Z06 is a much better "sport coupe" than a fucking m3. m3 is a pimp ride, no doubt, but when SPECIFICALLY tlaking about the "sport" aspect and not the luxury or anything else, the Z06 slaughters that thing across the board.


Have you ever driven an M3? I guess I wouldn't rush to judgement until you understand what people are talking about. If you've driven both and M3 and a Z06 and prefer the Z06, that's great. I'll hold of on deciding which one's better until after I've experienced both.

and who the fuck is responsible for the pick of the best SUV??? that new porsche?? give me a break, first of all, no long term testing has been done, that thing COULD have an achilies heel like the acura tranny, you never know. additionally, who the fuck is going to use their new porsche SUV for any type of off roading, towing, utility work, etc. give me a break, they based that choice on looks and luxury...but sorry, an SUV, by nature, has nothing to do with looks, luxury, class, etc. it has to to with SPORT and UTILITY. that porsche thing has NO UTILITY whatsoever, its a luxury vehicle that will never touch an offroad course or pull tree stumps out of the ground like all the TRUE SUV's that we make here in america

What, maybe 5% of any SUVs ever leave the pavement? If today's SUVs are designed as street vehicles then I wouldn't blame the automakers, I'd blame the consumers. These people want to haul stuff and people without the stigma of a minivan...they want to be part of the in croud and buy an SUV but they want comfort. That is the face of the SUV market. My parents have owned a number of Explorers and they have rarely seen even a gravel road. In this case, a Porsche is just as suitable as an SUV as the ones "we make here in america". The SUV market is no longer about offroad. It's the way things are and the way things will continue to be. So quit complaining when a highly rated SUV is not an offroader.
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