Hydrogen Fuel-Cell News

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Old 05-12-2009, 08:57 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by TMQ
First of all, I'm 100% against ethanol.

What I really want to see is
1) The introduction of more diesel cars/trucks in the U.S.
2) Increase tax on gasoline. That's the only way for people to get out of gas guzzling SUVs.

you know what the great thing about America was? People could buy and drive what they wanted.

if you want to pay MORE tax, please by all means cut a check to the IRS every year....

Personally I KNOW that government is a huge useless wasteful entity when it comes to spending money....
Old 05-12-2009, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
Obama needed money to fund his programs from somewhere. Its not like he was going magically have money for all these new initiatives and at the same time decrease our deficit.....

I agree with the tax on gasoline (I daily drive a V8 muscle car btw) but NOT on diesel. Our infrastructure relies on big diesel-powered semi trucks and the drivers are hurting to pay for their gas as it is. Diesel prices matter the most since to them, their livelihood depends on it. We have it WAY too well off here, other countries get taxed to death on things like engine displacement and vehicle inspections. I'm going to get flamed for this like I always do but I don't have a problem with a fixed increase in gasoline tax, as long as its used to fund the right program. another .20 cents/gal translates only to an average of $2 more per fillup. You can easily make up for that amount by not eating out once a week, not flushing when you take a piss only, turning off the shower when you lather, or ending your showers a minute early, etc. etc. etc.

Ethanol is useless as its been mentioned. It has a lower energy content than gasoline does. My friend runs his Evo X on E85 and he needed to upgrade his fuel delivery system to deliver as much as 30% more fuel to accommodate.



@ the use of avatar



but sadly I don't see too many automakers interested in pursuing natural gas.... at least not that I've seen. The only company that comes to mind is Honda and its previous-gen Civic GX, which they cancelled

The GX is alive and well. Our state has the best NGV infrastructure around, its not great, but better than most, and it will be getting better. Last summer, you could not get an NGV here. It still costs less than $1 per Gallon Equivalent. the best part is that it all comes from the great state of Wyoming.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
Old 05-12-2009, 10:41 PM
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IMHO, biofuels are an excellent answer, but we have tom refine them from cellulosic stock, not food.

There are a few companies that can synthesize pure diesel, check the PM website.

Process*: Simple sugars—either derived from breaking down tough, cellulosic feedstocks or from sources such as sugarcane—are reacted over solid catalysts to remove the oxygen locked inside their molecules and form high-energy hydrocarbons. Like crude run through traditional refineries, raw sugar feedstocks are separated to create the range of molecules in the fuels we know as gasoline, diesel and jet.
Bottom Line: Green incarnations of today’s fuels are the holy grail, but until cellulose can be cheaply converted to simple sugars, domestic potential will be limited. Virent hopes to have its gas in car tanks by 2012.
Innovators: Virent (backed by Shell and Honda)
Freshwater Usage:** None
Energy Yield***: 100%

Process*: Scientists have genetically engineered algae not just to turn CO2 into oil, but to continuously excrete that oil directly into the surrounding water. Since oil floats, harvesting it becomes simple work compared with the energy-intensive drying and extraction traditionally used for typical algae, which store oil within their cell walls. As with second-generation methods, the oil can then be processed into biodiesel.
Bottom Line: If they can perform at scale, these mutant algae may well be game changers. Synthetic Genomics hopes to have commercial amounts of biodiesel on the market within five years, though no plants have been built yet.
Innovators: Synthetic Genomics
Freshwater Usage:** None
Energy Yield***: 103%

* May vary slightly from company to company.
** Gallons per gallon of fuel, based on early projections; amount may vary depending on final production process.
*** Compared to a gallon of gasoline.
Old 05-13-2009, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
It's outside of our knowledge of physics at the moment; there was some interesting stuff I was reading on how to break atom bonds chemically to help split water molecules during electrolysis but it's still years off...

Yes, there's a bunch of companies working on it...
The same could be said about a lot of things. The atom bomb up to the mid 1940's, space exploration, traveling to the moon.

The government spent large amounts of time and resources and built a knowledge base. I think that Hydrogen is a viable resource if we actually put a goal and strategy in place. A good example would be Kennedy and putting a man on the moon. Hybrids or electric cars aren't the answer.
Old 05-13-2009, 12:52 AM
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Hmm, why don't we just make the cars people actually want to drive, like the Camaro SS, the Corvetted ZR1, the CTS-V, the G8 GXP, etc??? I'm soooo sick of this "alternative-to-gaoline" nonsense. Fact is that there is still plenty of the good stuff and I say we just continue to make the cars that we all love. Screw hydrogen and biofuels IMO....
Old 05-13-2009, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximized
The same could be said about a lot of things. The atom bomb up to the mid 1940's, space exploration, traveling to the moon.

The government spent large amounts of time and resources and built a knowledge base. I think that Hydrogen is a viable resource if we actually put a goal and strategy in place. A good example would be Kennedy and putting a man on the moon. Hybrids or electric cars aren't the answer.
I agree that hybrids and electric cars are only a stopgap solution. Maybe hybrid and electric cars could help the country over the next 10-15 years, until a hydrogen or natural gas infrastructure is developed. Unfortunately, the administration doesn't look past four years in the future, so necessary investments may never be made in a true successor to gasoline.
Old 05-13-2009, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Hmm, why don't we just make the cars people actually want to drive, like the Camaro SS, the Corvetted ZR1, the CTS-V, the G8 GXP, etc??? I'm soooo sick of this "alternative-to-gaoline" nonsense. Fact is that there is still plenty of the good stuff and I say we just continue to make the cars that we all love. Screw hydrogen and biofuels IMO....
Old 05-13-2009, 09:41 AM
  #48  
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What it boils down to, is that Hydrogen cannot be taxed immediately like gasoline and biofuels. If O doesn't stand to pull any loot in from it, it gets the axe.
Old 05-14-2009, 12:43 AM
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Oh don't worry, Obama is going to fund plenty of other things.
Old 05-14-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
Exactly, there is no efficient way to produce hydrogen in mass quantities at the moment. In fact it creates more emissions creating it for automotive use than it would just burning gasoline. Creating hydrogen is so inefficient they'd have to dedicate a nuclear plant just to create small amounts of it. Just not realistic at this point in time until we get more nuclear plants online.
You know it and I know it, but everyone else in here seems hell bent on ignoring reality for some reason. (Maybe I shouldn't be so suprised America is in the pickle it's in!)
Old 05-14-2009, 11:33 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
You know it and I know it, but everyone else in here seems hell bent on ignoring reality for some reason. (Maybe I shouldn't be so suprised America is in the pickle it's in!)
Hey I know it too

Like I said, natural gas is the way to go until something else comes along.

We need something NOW, that is clean and efficient. And preferably something we don't have to import.

Natural gas fits all of that.
Old 05-14-2009, 11:57 AM
  #52  
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My comment about harvesting it out of the atmosphere was a joke...that's strictly star trek crap for the mental masturbators at MIT. None of the other known methods for producing hydrogen fuel will solve any of our real energy problems in the near or long term, no matter how much money you want to throw at it. It's pie in the sky. It's nuclear fusion. Not saying they shouldn't devote *some* money towards R&D, because the technology might have some fringe applications it works well in, it's just not where we should place our high-dollar bets is my point.

We need to invest in something that's clean (electricity), renewable (electricity), scalable (electricity), and most importantly, practical in both the short and long term (ELECTRICITY). People don't want to hear it though...they just don't buy the idea, even though hybrids sell briskly *because* of the fact they run partially on E. Go figure that one!
Really the only thing standing in the way of an electric car that functions just a practically as a gasoline car is a battery that runs 300+ miles and charges fast enough. Judging by the way battery technology has advanced since even the EV-1 days, this won't take long.
Old 05-19-2009, 08:49 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
You know it and I know it, but everyone else in here seems hell bent on ignoring reality for some reason. (Maybe I shouldn't be so suprised America is in the pickle it's in!)

Right now the best option (note, "best", not necessarily viable at the moment) is battery electric vehicles. The below numbers are from what I've read so they might be different now and/or change based on new technology, though.

Comparing battery electric to gasoline combustion engines, the amount of electricity used to refine a gallon of gasoline is enough to propel an electric car 60 or so miles! Plus you have to factor in actually burning the gas, transporting the gas, etc. You only get like 20% or so of the energy from gas (rest is heat), while the efficiency of an electric car is like 80 to 90%, no engine oil changes, brakes last forever (due to regen), savings from service need to be taken into account.

Comparing battery electric to hydrogen electric (hydrogen cars are also "electric cars") is similar. Converting the energy in hydrogen to power the car, plus generating the hydrogen, results in a ratio of 3 or more. With the same amount of energy, you can go 300 miles in a BEV versus 100 miles in a hydrogen EV, 3:1, (battery versus hydrogen electric vehicle).

If you used hydrogen with a combustion type engine, you'd get even worse efficiency than using it with a fuel cell to convert the hydrogen to electricity.

The holdup with BEVs at the moment is the cost of the batteries, plus the size/weight/etc... But, assuming cheaper and lighter batteries come along, BEVs make much more sense than hydrogen.

Course I'm biased for EVs (I'm building a EV car conversion, plus ride my electric bike), so take the above with a grain of salt!

- Tony
Old 05-20-2009, 02:02 AM
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I think right now the best option is to allow the oil companies to drill for more oil and stop worrying about this global warming nonsense. If there were no govt restrictions on where and when companies could drill I think you'd all be surprised at just how much of it is still left out there untapped.

I'm sorry, but as much as I love cars there is no way I will EVER get excited about an electric car. I don't care how "clean and efficient" it is....
Old 05-20-2009, 03:32 AM
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^ +1, cars are not the worst polluter anymore nor are they the highest user of fossil fuel. Trucks, buses, trains, ships, mowers, pewer plants, etc make up the bulk of that. Doing away with fossil fuel use in cars won't solve that issue.
Old 05-20-2009, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
I think right now the best option is to allow the oil companies to drill for more oil and stop worrying about this global warming nonsense. If there were no govt restrictions on where and when companies could drill I think you'd all be surprised at just how much of it is still left out there untapped.

I'm sorry, but as much as I love cars there is no way I will EVER get excited about an electric car. I don't care how "clean and efficient" it is....
Almost eveyone in the scientific community agrees that oil is not a renewable resource. There is a wacko theory that the earth creates it naturally and replenishes it quickly, but people who folllow this are generally written off as cranks. It's estimated that earth held 2 trillion barrels of oil and that we've used roughly half of it...the easy portion of it that used to spew forth from people's back yards in Texas. The other half is hard to get, and far more expensive. Drilling oil wells costs a fortune and is yielding less and less payoff every year that goes by.
Old 05-20-2009, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
Almost eveyone in the scientific community agrees that oil is not a renewable resource. There is a wacko theory that the earth creates it naturally and replenishes it quickly, but people who folllow this are generally written off as cranks. It's estimated that earth held 2 trillion barrels of oil and that we've used roughly half of it...the easy portion of it that used to spew forth from people's back yards in Texas. The other half is hard to get, and far more expensive. Drilling oil wells costs a fortune and is yielding less and less payoff every year that goes by.
That may all be true, but why not let the companies drill for it? Let them take that payoff risk.
Old 05-21-2009, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
Almost eveyone in the scientific community agrees that oil is not a renewable resource. There is a wacko theory that the earth creates it naturally and replenishes it quickly, but people who folllow this are generally written off as cranks. It's estimated that earth held 2 trillion barrels of oil and that we've used roughly half of it...the easy portion of it that used to spew forth from people's back yards in Texas. The other half is hard to get, and far more expensive. Drilling oil wells costs a fortune and is yielding less and less payoff every year that goes by.
Yeah, see thats the tricky bit isn't it. How can anybody be so pointy-headed and arrogant as to claim that they know exactly how much oil there is (or was) on the entire planet, when we haven't even explored all of it above ground yet (much less below). "Scientists" find out new things about our planet every day and are constantly having to "update" theories and hypothesis as new findings come to light.

What if someone had said 50 years ago that they knew how much oil was left on the planet? THey would've been way off because new discoveries are made almost daily. I agree that oil is not a renuable resource but thats not the point. THe point is that there is still plenty of it to go around for the forseeable future, so there is no rush to go out and force everybody to drive around in golf carts by the year 2020.
Old 08-12-2009, 07:04 PM
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Honda Prefers Hydrogen as U.S. Pushes Battery Autos

Honda Motor Co. is backing hydrogen power for the cars of the future, a stance at odds with the Obama administration’s decision to drop automotive fuel-cell technology in favor of battery-run vehicles.

“Fuel-cell cars will become necessary,” said Takashi Moriya, head of Tokyo-based Honda’s group developing the technology. “We’re positioning it as the ultimate zero-emission car.”

Honda, the only carmaker leasing fuel-cell autos to individuals, opened a production line last year in Tochigi prefecture to make 200 FCX Clarity sedans. The Energy Department sought to eliminate hydrogen-station funding and instead lend $1.6 billion to Nissan Motor Co. and $465 million to Tesla Motors Inc. to build electric cars, and give $2.4 billion in grants to lithium-ion battery makers.

“Honda has a propensity to think very long term,” said Ed Kim, an analyst at AutoPacific Inc. in Tustin, California. “It’s also part of the company culture that if they’ve made a decision they think is correct, they’ll really stick with it.”

Honda isn’t alone. Toyota Motor Corp., Daimler AG, General Motors Corp. and Hyundai Motor Co. say hydrogen, the universe’s most abundant element, is among the few options to replace oil as a low-carbon transportation fuel.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aD5fw9um.Y3E
Old 08-12-2009, 09:35 PM
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Plug-in hybrids are definitely closer to market. I'd like to know what the state of hydrogen production is right now, I know the cars are ready but if the fuel isn't ready then it's a moot point, and it sounds like that's what the Obama/Chu decision was based on.

By the way, biofuel != just ethanol.
Old 08-13-2009, 09:31 AM
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At least someone realizes what's up.
Old 02-10-2021, 06:46 PM
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Hydrogen holds tremendous potential as a clean energy source, but there are still significant hurdles to overcome before it becomes a legitimate option for cars and trucks. Two of those issues are storage and transportation of the fuel, particularly when large high-pressure tanks aren't an option. A new creation called Powerpaste, developed by a research team at the Fraunhofer Institute for Manufacturing Technology and Advanced Materials in Dresden, Germany, could potentially answer those questions.

According to the Institute, Powerpaste is made up of magnesium hydride (created when magnesium powder is combined with hydrogen), an ester and a metal salt. A plunger pushes the paste out of its container, water is added and hydrogen is released. Half of the hydrogen is released from the magnesium hydride and the other half comes from the water. The resulting hydrogen can then be used to generate electricity using a fuel cell.

Because both parts of the mixture release hydrogen, the combination of Powerpaste and water can reportedly store more hydrogen than standard high-pressure tanks and is 10-times more dense than today's batteries. And since both the paste and the required water are easy to carry in cartridges or canisters and don't pose a dangerous threat in high temperatures, no significant infrastructure is needed to make the fuel source available to potential customers.

The Fraunhofer Institute suggests that electric scooters and motorcycles are an ideal initial test for its Powerpaste, and it plans to launch a production plant this year to produce up to four tons of the fuel per year. If that's successful and everything works out as well as they hope, the researchers hint that Powerpaste could be useful for other sectors, presumably including automobiles.

Of course, hydrogen has other hurdles to overcome, chief among them revolving around a good way to capture hydrogen in the first place, but we're certain researchers are working to resolve those questions, too.
Powerpaste could be a safer, more efficient way to store hydrogen | Autoblog
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Old 02-12-2024, 07:43 AM
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Shell Hydrogen will permanently close all seven of its California pumping stations immediately, the company confirmed this week. It will no longer operate light-duty hydrogen stations in the U.S., and represents another blow to the struggling hydrogen car market in the only state where the fuel is widely available at all.

The outlet Hydrogen Insight first reported the news on Thursday. Shell had, until recently, operated seven of the 55 total retail hydrogen stations in California, per the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Partnership (H2FCP). That makes this a blow, but not apocalyptic news for the (small) hydrogen community.

Unfortunately, the reason why Shell is closing up shop should give Toyota Mirai, Hyundai Nexo, and Honda Clarity Fuel Cell owners—God bless 'em—even more cause for concern. In the letter announcing the closure, Shell Hydrogen Vice President Andrew Beard said they were shutting them down "due to hydrogen supply complications and other external market factors." It's not hard to see what Beard is referencing here.
Shell Is Immediately Closing All Of Its California Hydrogen Stations (insideevs.com)
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