vishnus11

You went to Honda's website and "investigated" the suspension changes and listed some "hard facts". Power to you. Problem is, your "hard facts" don't relate to your arguments. "Higher at the limit performance" and "less bump steer" aren't dumbing down but instead are useful improvements that further enhance the handling of the S2000.

You skim over the info at hondanews at think you "know" something about the car. I could tell you why the original AP1's were more prone to bumpsteer and why the suspension geometry was originally set up that way, but why bother, you know more about the S2000 than I do. If you really want to know more about the S2000 read Dan Carney's book which details the history of the car from inception to testing to production. Read s2ki.com where owners post their real world experiences, thoughts and opinions. Hondanews gives great technical info, but not much in the way of subjective and/or objective opinions.

As usual, not one proper fact to back up your failing and crumbling argument, and as usual, you love to cap it all off with a personal attack. This is just too easy.

vishnus11

But srika, these are the "facts" according to Maximized:

Fact: The 350Z is a faster car.
Fact: You are a magazine racer, whom has little real life experience.
Fact: You are a S2000 nut-swinger.



That said, the 350Z is extremely competent. Even though it is relatively heavy when compared to the S2k, it carries its weight well, and has a wonderful exhaust note.

srika

vishnus11

O-Town_TypeS

He has a right to his opinion but personal attacks is weak. I love this car and honestly will probably NEVER get rid of it. It's been my daily driver for almost 3 years. Low end power has NEVER been an issue for me. This car is a freakin blast to drive!

If it makes him feel better I'm about to get my diff replaced for the 2nd time . Yes I drive it like I stole it!!!

F23A4

OK, breather time. The S2K is a terrific roadster as is the 350Z. IMHO, both suit two different types of driver and server both fairly well. I am partial to the Z but mainly because I have become VERY used to the VQ35DE in my Maxima.

I have driven my friend's S2K (2.0L) and it truly has a Jekyll/Hyde power delivery that takes some getting used and requires focused time to master. (I personally felt that the K20A2 in his previous ride - RSX-S - is a better motor aside from peak HP). OTOH, the Z is MUCH more suited to the novice driver/racer....which is not a bad thing IMHO.

fsttyms1

In real world driving merging into traffic and general stop and go the s2k isnt the best car due to the lack of down lo power. At the track where you can keep the revs up it shines (but ive also see it get its ass handed to itself on tracks that it cant keep in its power range)
Im not denying its a good car, it is. Its fun. It just needs much more down low power

And vishnus11, the s2k i spent time behind the wheel was a 04

LiQiCE

Another S2K owner here (2004 AP2). As far as the Z being better than the S2K because of 'real world experiences' at the track, unless you're seeing the same driver on the same day drive both cars, I don't know if you can really directly compare the cars. Its true, the S2K is a harder car to drive in the 1/4 mile, and so you're going to see more people putting down slower times. But if you put a good driver behind both cars I think you'll find the times to be pretty damn close.

As far as the AP1 versus AP2 arguement, it really depends on the situation. In some situations the AP2's neutral handling is better, but in some cases for experienced drivers the AP1's tendancy to oversteer is better. Its just really your preference, just like the preference between the Z and the S2K.

I'm certainly not a know-it-all when it comes to cars, but I don't know why down-low-torque is such a big deal in stop-and-go traffic. I'm not usually revving the hell out of my engine while I'm sitting in traffic and while I may end up having to shift into 2nd, I don't see why its a big deal, especially in a car like the S2K which has a great gearbox.

As far as merging into traffic, I guess if you never want to rev passed 3000rpms then the S2K wouldn't be good for merging, but I'm able to merge just fine and get up to highway speeds without hitting VTEC, and its not like I live in the boonies or anything (DC Metro traffic is considered 3rd worst in the nation I think?)

Anyways, to each his own ... The S2000 is a niche car. There's a reason they only make about 10k a year compared with a more mainstream car. Its not for everyone! I'm not going to be ignorant and say that its the best car in the world, or maybe not even the best value in the world anymore ... But its still the best ~30k I've ever spent

SpeedyV6

Just out of curiosity, why was the suspension set up that way on the AP1?

Mizouse

some guy with a black 2005 parked next to me with his top down

i want this car so bad!!!!!!!

vishnus11

I believe it was due to the anti-squat geometry built into the rear suspension that was supposed to keep the car stable under hard braking. The tweaked 04 rear better combats the bumpsteer with its slightly softer rear and revised suspension settings.

I also agree with LiQuice - a niche car built for a niche market. You either like it or you don't. But when driven properly in the manner it was meant to be driven to extract maximum power, it can perform extremely well.

Maximized

I retract my statement above.

Are you willing to back that statment up in the 1/4 mile? If so, my friend Brian would love to prove you wrong for the right price. His car holds the stock Z record on MY350Z.

I've seen both cars run at the track and the Z is a quicker and more consistent drag racer. On a road course it's a toss up. I hate to bring a magazine into the conversation, but check out the latest C&D. The 350Z Track was 1 second faster around VIR than the EVO MR. Now I can tell you from my track experience that a well driven EVO is significantly faster than an S2K around Gingerman and Autobahn. Food for thought.

Maximized

I've known that for years. I just wanted to point that out to an ignorant S2K fanboy like yourself with Honda as the source. Again, for an experience driver, Honda dumbed downed the suspension. They did this because newbs like yourself were raising the insurance rates because the car could transition to snap oversteer if you aren't quick on the reflexes. Now if you want to speak technically, please explain to me how the changes affected the car. I can see from your post a few above, that you read a few things and don't understand the physics. It seems that you are armed with the minimal knowledge to make you dangerous.

Please explain to me, I'd love to hear a thorough analysis of how the suspension changes in 04' affected the physics of the car.I'd love to hear the "Facts" because I've presented a well know "flaw" in the car near the limit and you have yet to acknowledge it. Kind of like you think the car has torque. I am sure I will get a google explanation.

Finally, please post some track times. I'd love to see how well you can pilot your S2K down the 1320. Also, please tell many how many HPDE's or OT's you've been to in your S2K. If it's zero, do yourself a favor and just delete your long-winded response, since it just proves my point that you are a mag racer.

srika

thats nice to hear about your friend - what's 1/4 time did he get? If I had an S2k, I might race for fun but not for the "right price"... lol

What's the fastest time for a stock 350Z on race rubber at Gingerman?

Maximized

13.6 Bone Stock....Now he has an APS twin turbo kit and runs 11.6. I said "for the right price" because he'd have to borrow a stock Z.

A 350Z with race rubber isn't stock, is it ? The same friend I am referring to above ran 1:44's on a stop watch his first time ever tracking his Z. A good set of R compounds is worth seconds in some cases, so your guess is as good as mine. I know there are guys on My350Z that do track there though, so I am sure I can find some concrete times. If I was a betting man, I'd bet a good driver on R compounds in a otherwise stock track Z could run high 1:30's around Gingerman.

I do know that a fully race prepped S2K ran by a NASA Honda-Challenge driver ran 1:37's around Gingerman.

srika

13.6 is good, is that on street tires? bone stock right? that would be pretty tough on a S2k.

stock except for the tires more tomorrow...

Crazy Bimmer

As rare as it seems to hit 13.6, some have done it or came really close while being stock. But most guys were running low 14s. (searched on 350z forums too)

http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan--350...l?resultpage=2

unlemming

It would be so cool if someone would gather some good drivers and put them behind different cars. Maybe have a set of standard tests to put the vehicles through their paces while keeping everything else as unbiased as possible. And then document that knowledge and experience in a manner that people could purchase and read it so they could make informed decisions. But definitely NOT in a magazine because that would make anyone that read it a clueless magazine racer. Everyone knows that a documented reliable source is not a valid reference in a debate, anecdotal evidence is all you truly need. And the willpower to get the last word.

vishnus11

You sir, are pitiful. What happened to "let's continue this through PM". You got your butt handed to you, and now your back for more. Again, reading comprehension would serve you well.

I'll refer you to unlemming's post I think we can trust the mags better than your anecdotal evidence.

Crazy Bimmer

I thought the argument was that the s2k didnt have enough torque for daily driving?

savage

anyone ever remember this hoax?

S2000-R
360Hp inline 6
Would be nice if Honda designed and actually built it....

http://www.mcclatchie.com/reviews/S2000R.html

vishnus11

Did someone just invent everybit of that up, or was something like that really in the works? The project leaders the article mentions are genuine: Uehera is the on who headed up the NSX and S2k projects.

at S2000R

vishnus11

It was/is. What I don't understand about those who think/claim that the S2000 doesn't have enough torque for daily driving, is that its "torque to weight" ratio is way more than most cars on the road. For example, a 07 Honda Accord 4cyl weighs 300lbs more than an S2k, and has a smidge less torque. Does that also have not enough torque for daily driving? I don't see people with Accords/Camry's/other DD vehicles complaining about the lack of torque, so why does the S2000 suddenly lack torque in daily driving?

It is undoubtedly down on torque in relation to something like the 350Z, but with regards to daily driving, its more than capable. And when you really want to haul ass, just keep 'er in VTEC

dom

I don't nessesaraly disagree with you but their argument is.....

162 lb-ft @ 6800 vs 160 lb-ft @ 4000

Crazy Bimmer

exactly.

Wheres beetroot, he even said the s2k was annoying for daily driving since you always had to rev the hell out of it.

I dont mean to be a dick, but maybe you dont mind that since you are 18. I know when i was 18 i didnt mind if my car was super loud everyday. Hell i even drove it like a stole it. So really, the S2k would have been perfect for me at that time.

F23A4

....it was not long after I procured my 99 Accord LX (148lb-ft) that I regretted not getting the LX-V6 (195lb-ft) instead. (My 02 Maxima has since made up for 3 1/2 years of driving that torqueless wonder.)

That said:
^^^ BINGO!!!

I would like to see a torque curve comparison chart between the F22C and K24A3. (SteVTEC?) That would really illustrate the gist of the argument.

srika

I agree - and I also think I would have some trouble with the law if I had an S2k, because I would be ringing it out pretty much everytime I took it out.. and I have a heavy foot..

the AP2 is an improvement but the car is really FUN to drive only past 6000 or whatever... that being said, I have a friend who is on his 4th S2k right now (he likes them that much). He is the same guy who had the M3 race car and races at SCCA. He is about to go semi-pro. He has run 1:37 at Gingerman with a stock S2k on R-compounds. I have another friend who has had 2 s2k's. The cars have appeal.

dom

The TSX is most definently the last NA 4 cylinder car I'll ever buy.

biker

It's all subjective - I don't find my 99 Accord LX 5 sp a torqueless wonder.

If I want speed/tq I just jump on my bike.

When I see all of these folks clamoring for tq I wonder how they would react to a diesel.

gocubsgo55

S2000R? Where did that come from, and why the HELL did they not produce it?!

Maximized

Well since you avoided answering my questions, I can make some simple assumptions:

-You've never had your S2K to a track(drag or road course)
-You cannot explain in your own words how the suspension changes affected the dynamics of the car.

Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. In fact, it's obvious that you cannot comprehend the context of "dumbed down" in terms of suspension tuning. I said it before, but you are a 18 year old know it all. You not being to the track and talking about handling is the equivalant of a virgin talking about sex.

Call me pitiful and claim to "own" me all you want. You look like the moron and further cements my message that you are a magazine racer.

Maximized

Got any proof of that? My good friend Neal is a friends of a NASA driver whom used to race at Gingerman extensively. His best times that I know of are 1.36.9X on a race prepped 01 S2K. When I say race prepped I mean gutted, caged, etc.

That's about 5-6 seconds slower than my friends old 02 Z06 on R compounds and PF01 pads.

srika

I dont have any proof more than telling you that. But I will say this - my friend is an AMAZING driver. He has been racing in Midwestern Council over the past year with his M3 Lightweight race car (9mb of pics here). He is on other boards as "Mafia". I will try to get some threads for you to peruse that talk about him. He is the kind of guy that intimidates guys in a class ahead of him - for instance I think he is in "GT2" class with the M3... there have been times where he has had to let off and not pass the GT1 guy in the lead, just because that would "look bad"... :P He is REALLY GOOD. Ask your friend about Mafia aka Drew, he may know of him. Because I think he has done NASA events too.

Maximized

I found his lap times when he was stockish...
1:42.50 05/25/2003 mafia 2002 S2000 Panther Plus and ATE blue, stock otherwise (S02's have maybe 50-65% tread left). Cool weather... With a passenger

This is the guy whom my buddy Neal knows:
1:36.95 05/28/2002 Mike Pendola 2000 Honda S2000 A032R's, Coilovers, brake pads, motul fluid.

The M3 in the pics look sick!! I was just asking because I was curious and wasn't trying to call you out as a liar.

vishnus11

You bring up a good point. I didn't want to make the post too long winded and thus didn't link any dyno plots or anything. In the AP2s effort was made to increase torque across the whole rev range - I'll have to dig up some plots but as I mentioned eariler, the torque curve is pretty flat especially in the AP2's

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...0&#entry546210

Here's an interesting thread -the guy hooked up an accelerometer to his S, and measured the avg. g through 1st gear. Although the image is not longer hosted, you can deduce from the comments, that the VTEC crossover is a lot smoother than we're led to believe, and is function of the fact that the car is making pretty even torque throughout the rev range. Btw, this was done on an AP1, so I'd imagine it would hold even more true for an AP2.

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=4

^ Above is a dyno plot of an AP2 done by TOV. As you can see, from around 3000 to 6000 rpms, the engine is still making approx. 85% of its peak torque (rough calculation). From 2500rpms to 3000rpms, its still making roughly 80% of its peak torque.

vishnus11

You really know that someone is grabbing for .... anything...when they have to make personal attacks because of their insecurities.

No real facts or proof. Just anecdotal evidence, and insecurities.

Read the thread. Then read it again. Maybe read it some more. Your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired, and frankly, why bother restating what I've already said.

vishnus11

ooooooooo, i'm "dangerous". Watch out everybody, here I come with my S2k, "snap" oversteer and all.

Maximized

I've read the thread and I can read perfectly fine. You want to compare reading comprehension let's go. I can tell you that I get paid well by a Fortune 500 company to create collateral for B2B acquisition and report directly to the VP of Marketing for my given segment. Please list your credentials! This is an automotive forum, so I apologize if my grammar isn't skimmed thoroughly for errors.

You've officially proven that you CANNOT answer my simple questions pertaining to the car YOU own and drive. One requires a simple Yes or No answer. I also love how you've become a psychologist! You are really proving to be a well rounded know it all.

vishnus11

psychologist...hmmm....

If you had read the thread, then you'd have all the answers to the questions you asked in my posts. You've avoided replying to any of the FACTS that I've posted, instead relying on your anecdotal evidence and misjudgement. Did you read unlemming's post, and reply to it. No. You instead ignored it, and continued with the lame personal attacks. You can't read, plain and simple.

Let me spell this out for you one more time...

You said that the S2000 was torqueless below 6000rpms. I stated that was not the case, especially with AP2s. I provided among other things an article from R&T to illustrate the point. I've also posted dyno plots to further illustrate the point. You on the other hand, have done.....nothing. Not one bit of solid, reputable information to back up your claim that the S2000 has "no torque" under 6000rpms.

You said the S2000 wasn't spectacular on the track. Again, I posted among other things, an article from C&D and an article from R&T in which the S2000 excels against other cars in it class such as the 350Z and Z4 3.0. You posted anecdotal evidence, to which Srika replied and illustrated that the S2000 is indeed highly capable on the track.

You said the handling of the S2000 was "dumbed down" in AP2 iterations. I disagreed, and pointed out the fact that a Best Motoring video comparing both the Japanese spec AP1 and AP2 on a course, in which the AP2 handily distanced itself from the AP1. The AP2 featured the suspension revisions, and no more, since the Jap Spec AP2 still kept their 9k redline (till 06 I believe). I also posted an article and excerpt from R&T in which they specifically commented on how the car was more planted and able to carry greater speed through the corners. In addition you yourself, posted info taken from hondanews I presume, in which the press release explicitly states "at-the-limit performance INCREASED". If all this means "dumbed down" handling to you, the you should seek professional help. "Dumbed down" handling would be something akin to what happened in the Audi TT, in which the car lost its neutral cornering attitute, which was replaced with a heavy, but safe understeer bias, that resulted in equal or less performance in the corners, not INCREASED performance. You've posted nothing that contributes to your argument that the handling was dumbed down.

When your argument started losing steam, you resorted to personal attacks. You'd be hard pressed to find a post in this thread where I personally attacked you. I'd love to, but its not my style.

In conclusion, your argument was based on hearsay, anecdotal evidence, and claims of having spent time behind the wheel. My argument referenced credible sources, and was further bolstered by the fact that I own the vehicle.

Cheers.

Maximized

Again, you've avoided my simple questions and responded in a long winded, but pointless polst. Like I've stated numerous times, you have no clue what you are talking about and you are the only one in here defending the S2K. You are at the age when you think you know it all. Your arguement might have worked in the HS lunch room, but not here. Either answer my simple questions that you've avoided in the last handful of posts, or either quit posting. I bet my analogy of the virgin talking about sex fits you to a T. All I see you posting is rag opinions and no hard tech. You have no clue why I stated that the S2K was dumbed down, nor did you prod to find the answer. I've been to numerous track days and Bondurant, thus I know how a thing or two about controlling a car. For people whom actually can drive the car at or near the limit, the suspension was dumbed down. A simple look at the changes to the suspension setting will easily tell me that. You can spit out tidbits on information all you want, but if you have no clue what those changes actually were engineered for, your dead in the water. Here lies your main problem. Hence why I asked if you've been to an Open Track day or HPDE. You've never even come close to the S2K's actual limits, so therefore you cannot fathom what I am referring to.

I can read perfectly well, especially in between the lines. Your parents bought you an S2K and you think it's god's chariot. In closing, open your eyes a bit and quit being so closed minded. Everything you read in car magazines isn't the absolute truth. You will also find that your parents are a lot smarter than you see them as when you are 18. It's a phase and you'll grow out of the know it all mentality.