actually, no, the J series is more or less maxed out, at least as far as Honda is concerned. Honda refuses to push it past 305hp. This, coming from a 3.7L V6. Hell, I have a Nissan 3.7L V6 that puts out 350hp, stock. Let's see Honda match that for once.

the TLX has a what, 3.5L V6 pushing 290hp? This is the 5th generation of said car. The 3rd gen was already pushing 286hp from a 3.5L. They made MASSIVE gains in 7 years.

And while companies like Ford are building DOHC V8s, or Nissan is building DOHC V6s (for well over a decade now), Honda still sticks to the lowly SOHC design. Innovation at its finest.

 

10 speed AT? And maybe the 2.0L turbo or the same old 3.5 V6 J series? Doubt it's going to get the 3.5 V6 twin turbo.

 

Honda needs a 3.0T, in a major way.

Maybe in 10 years, if we're lucky. Sigh.

 

Remember, Honda hates you.

 

Actually that Honda J35 SOHC (Accord V6 3.5l) innovation still beats the latest DOHC from Nissan and Toyota (Altima and Camry also both DOHC V6 3.5l) not only in HP, torque, and highway fuel economy (Nissan is 1MPG better in city) but also cost. So it's still got some production life left in it, the VQ is 22 years old but like the Honda J-series has been continuously updated, the Toyota FE motor is only at 14 years old. Honda motor engineers must be proud to beat the competition with 2 less cams.

HP
Toyota Honda Nissan
268@6200 278@6200 270@6400

Torque
248@4700 252@4900 251@4400


Compare Toyota Camry VS Similar Competitor Vehicles


Looking forward to the new V6 from Honda to be a timing chain, hopefully the Pilot will get it in 2018 as I would prefer not to have to change timing belts anymore.

 

which engines are you comparing? I was comparing Acura/Hondas highest output NA V6 vs their competitors.

You're comparing their base v6.

 

Yep, the higher production V6 motors used in Honda's.
The J still beats Toyota and Nissan there, despite SOHC vs DOHC.

 

I think TacoBello is talking about the VQ37VHR found in the Infiniti IPL G37 Coupe. That's the one with 348hp.

The problem though is that the peak torque is still at 276lbft and that comes at 5200rpm. The slightly smaller J35 in the RLX FWD already makes 272lbft at a lower 4500rpm.

The VQ37VHR also suffers from a bit of vibration/harshness, especially at the top end. That would probably be fine for a sporty car like the Nissan 370Z. But for a luxury coupe, or even a luxury sedan, that sort of vibration would be a negative. If I remember correctly, the last gen MDX also has a bit of issue with vibration.

Since all of the Honda/Acura V6 cars family cars, there's not much point to have a peaky engine with such vibration and harshness. It just doesn't match. If there's a Honda S3500 or something, then perhaps a higher revving J series may make more sense.

 

I agree But Nissan is not a benchmark that Honda should be measuring itself to. That is like saying as long as I am better than one of the worst (in sales #), then i am good.

There is nothing wrong with J and VQ, both are good proven engines that one day will make it to Engine Hall of Fame (if there is one). But at some point, you just have to let it go to cater to what the current market wants and desires.
It is just a matter of time (within a few years) before Nissan start putting its 3.0T engine from Infiniti into their Nissan lineup.

Toyota sells cars for a completely different reason.

IMO, Honda's biggest competition will be Hyundai/Kia which all have very FI engines ready from 4 to 6 cylinders. Honda is doing fine right now, if they want to remain as 1 level above Kia/Hyundai, they can't stand still.

 

You're openly missing the point that DOHC >>>>>> SOHC. Do you remember the popular Honda engines, back in the day? They were ALL DOHC. The DOHC has so much more potential. Of course the regular cars don't get the more powerful engines. they never do. Once again, I'm comparing the best VQ vs the best J, and there is no comparison.

Serious? Torque is 100% based on displacement, when it comes to NA engines. There is an ultimate threshold where an engine could still have a bit more HP squeezed out of it, but torque won't increase. The VQ37VHR is like all other VTEC Honda engines. It has Nissan's version of VTEC also, and makes horsepower all the way to red line. the fact it has a little bit less torque is totally in line with what VTEC Honda engines do. That, and the RLX J35 has minimal more torque (if extrapolated).

But to that notion, the J series has had VTEC since it's inception, and at best is only a hair ahead of the VQ, which never relied on such tech until about 2009.

 

And to further that, at least Nissan is wise enough to kill off the top end NA VQ engine, and replace it with a much more potent turbo'd V6 setup. I'll be sitting here waiting for the day when Honda grows a pair and does the same.

 

Comparing two similar engines, theoretically the SOHC one will have more low end torque, while the DOHC one will have more power and/or be higher revving.

 

I always thought VQ makes more torque than J series... Also we have to take into consideration that at what rpm does the engine makes the max. torque. I mean i know VQ has more low end torque than J. and having more torque at 7k rpm is useless.

 

Interesting but J series SOHC has less torque and more high revving than VQ DOHC that makes more torque down low but with lower red line.

 

maybe I'm reading this incorrectly.

All numbers at the crank, VQ37VHR as mentioned above, makes 350hp @ 7000rpm, 269lb/ft @ 5200rpm in its highest output form. Redline is 7600rpm.

J37A4 makes 305hp @ 6300rpm, 273lb/ft @ 5000rpm. I can't actually find the redline, but I can't imagine it's higher than 7600.

 

^ Oh, that is because of the HR variant of the VQ engine, since Nissan purposed made it High Rev and sacrificed some low end torque in the process.

Traditionally, VQ engines produces more torque down low (that is what VQ is known for) and have a much lower red line than the comparable J series.

 

I'm not missing the point, you are.
To me what matter are results, and I shown with factual data how Honda's SOHC J still out-performs the DOHC of Toyota and Nissan.
As far as DOHC > SOHC, for all other parameters being equal. Perhaps but there are compromises and tradeoff that doesn't make that true as well.
- The disadvantages are a DOHC tends to be physically larger in cylinder head size, so DOHC motors tend to have larger and heavier heads.
- Also another cam so there's more machining, processing and expense so added cost to the motor.
- Also there is more friction from more cam bearing journals and cam drive (sprocket or belt).
+ The advantages are optimum valve angle and independent control for continuously variable intake and exhaust valves.
+ There is another general advantage of lighter valve train, which can lead to higher redline.
+ Independent valvetrain timing control of intake and exhaust.

If you've ever seen the long cam follower rocker arms exhaust valves for the Honda C or J motors, you'd know there added mass on those valvetrain limiting higher RPM.
Which is the reason why the NSX motor used a DOHC cylinder head.

You just can't say DOHC >>>>> SOHC, there's alot of other factors at play.

As for That also is not true. I had a Prelude Si (12 valve SOHC, my brother had a CRX Si (12 valve SOHC), my g/f (now wife) had a Integra (DOHC 16 valve). All great motors but not all DOHC, alot of Honda's best motors are SOHC as well. I do like DOHC as in the current Accord K-motor, but I also am looking at the overall performance of the motor as well.

So while many will say Bucket cam followers >>>>>>> Cam finger followers, that's also not necessarily true. Especially when Honda won several F1 world championships with their motors in McLaren's with finger followers which many believe are inferior to bucket/shim followers.

 

Yeah I saw that but in the context of it all my original post which related to the application being for where most of the J-series motors are used it's SOHC design proves to be superior in performance and probably engine packaging as well to it's competition. If it was a high reving motor in a sports car (i.e. the 2G NSX) then yeah I'd like to see a DOHC motor as it does allows more potential for better cylinder head flow, spark plug placement, valve-train weight. But there are some disadvantages as well for DOHC.

 

Once again, not true.

The VQ37VHR makes power right until redline. And redline is 7600rpm

Show me one honda J series that can touch that, besides for the nsx.

VQs always appeared to make more torque, but It's because they were always larger in displacement. When the 7th gen Accord coupe was rocking the J30, Nissan/infinity were rocking the VQ35. There's inherently going to be more torque available.

 

once again, you are moving the goal posts to fit your rhetoric. Once again I am telling you, Honda's highest outputting NA V6 can't touch Nissan's highest outputting NA V6. Argue it all you want, it doesn't make a difference. You're still not right

And this about DOHC heads being heavier? Yeah, I guess they are because they obviously have an additional cam, rocker arms, valve springs, etc in it..

Go ahead, tell me how high the beloved J series revs. Does anyone of them touch 7600rpm? No? Once again, your argument is invalid.

Comparing an equal size SOHC to an equal size DOHC, the DOHC WILL put more power down. It's also drawing in way more air, meaning way more power. The only down side to the DOHC is slightly worse fuel economy, because yeah, you're moving more parts around. But once again, we are talking about highest ouput engines- no one really cares about fuel economy in such a regard. It's a damn sports engine, not a hybrid gas sipper. Once again (for the 40th time) I'm not comparing entry level V6s here.

Even going back to the old SOHC/DOHC Honda I4s... The D16 could never put out as much horsepower as a B16. People were ripping out their SOHC engines as fast as possible, in trade for the DOHC variants. Why? MOAR POWAH!

All you are doing is moving the goal posts to say the Honda engine gets better fuel economy and is cheaper. I never argued any of that. All I said is it's power is unable to match that of a DOHC, to which you still can't prove me wrong.

 

It's not higher than 7600. I think it is below 7000, I believe. IF the Honda engine could rev that high, yeah, it would keep producing power. But it is inherently designed in such a way to not be able to rev that high. You have to rebuild the block to be able to rev that high, safely. Also, the VQ37VHR in the Nismo 370z puts out a bit more torque. 276lbft, if I'm not mistaken (and 350hp). The non-nismo puts out 332hp/269lbft.

 

interesting, MY G37S was dead after 6.5k RPM, all i could feel was the roughness of the VQ at high rpm, but not more power.

and my old G35C had 6.5k redline that hates to rev anything over 5k. But it makes all of its torque at a much lower rpm compare to say J32, which made it much easier to drive everyday.

 

Sorry if I didn't make my point obvious.

Yes, that's what I was saying, that torque is based on displacement for the most part for a NA engine. You can get more power by making the engine rev higher, and extending the torque curve further to the right. But the peak torque wouldn't change much.

Looking at the Acura line up, they don't have a sports car like the 370Z. There's not much point of making a higher revving J series for something like the TLX with minimal sporting intention. If there's a Honda S3500, then sure, make a 7500rpm J series. But for a family sedan, having such high rev doesn't suit the car much. This is where boost comes into play. Since most luxury car drivers spend their time in lower rpm, the low to mid range torque is more important. This is why the likes of S4, 335i/340i, C43 AMG etc going that route. In the case of the 335i, when it was new, it was running 8.5psi or something. Doing the math, that's like a 4.7L engine. There's no way a regular 3.5L or 3.7L engine can match that sort of torque.

 

You sure about that? it will be 3.5L TLX engine + 2 battery pack.

 

You just don't get it, it's about the performance and results. I already proved you wrong that comparing the current Honda SOHC J 3.5l series to the newer Toyota DOHC FE 3.5l and Nissan VQ 3.5l, better economy and power/torque. And no we're not talking about the highest output motor V6. I was talking about the Ody J35 in the post you referenced first so you're again wrong about that as well, this is the Ody thread.

And no probably the vast majority of people were not ripping out their A20, B16, for D16's. Happened a few times, but probably 99% of the CRX and Prelude's kept their SOHC motors. I've driven all three of those motors and they're all nice motors.

Honda did put DOHC motors in the Prelude and CRX eventually. It allowed higher RPM, but the majority of their 4 cylinders in that time period were SOHC in the Civic and Accord.
Honda powertrain engineers were excellent at getting high hp/l even for SOHC motors, especially considering the tight engine packaging they achieved on the J-series and F-series..

 

There is just one thing I want to throw into the debate. It is that I have driven the equivalent V6's from Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, VW, Ford, and Nissan. 2006 Nissan murano 245hp, 2006 toyota rav4 269hp, 2009 Hyundai santa fe 242hp, 2007 VW Touareg 280hp, 2013 Lincoln MKX 305hp. Some with quite a bit less HP and others somewhat similar (taking out the weight and transmission/drivetrain setup) and every single time the others were DOHC setups that had WAY more low end torque vs my J37 in my current MDX at 300hp. I thought SOHC setups were supposed to be torquey at the low end.

My MDX is breathless up until 4000-4500 rpm (a.k.a vtech). Whereas ALL the others had this massive surge of power up until roughly 4500-5000 rpm where they all died despite claiming max power at higher rpms. This is something I have been unable to explain or understand. Honda engines come alive at high rpms but are dead at low rpms, this is extremely counterintuitive IMHO for family/city vehicles.

 

But Acura touts the TLX as a sports sedan. Yet it doesnt break 300hp. Honda has never built a car with a high revving v6, save for the NSX, eleventy billion years ago. And Don't tell me there was no market for such a car. Nissan was moving 6500-13,000 370z units per year and even in 2016, sold over 5500 units of a 7 year old car. A platform they also shared with Infiniti, which sold plenty units also. And yet Acura instead wastes money on bullshit like the RLX, which can't break 1500 units per year, on its third year of production, because it's trying to compete in a league it can't. Now which would you say is a waste of money?

So once again, all I'm saying is Honda cannot (for whatever reason) build a high output v6 these days. Never has (since 11 years ago). Never will. That's all I'm saying. And on the contrary, you can get a 400hp Infiniti sports sedan these days. Honda doesn't even have a V6T on the books. Funny how that goes.

 

Oh oh oh...are we comparing numbers from their minivans?

Chrysler Pacifica...287hp/262ft lbs non-hybrid model

 

 

They were from the Accord, the Ody is lower at 248HP/250lbft and it's redline is lower at 6300 than the J35 in the Accord (6800 RPM)
Not sure why, but wonder if the J35 in the Ody is tuned more for economy.

The J is getting old and due for a replace. As for the Pacifica, sounds like a nice motor but it's also in a Chrysler
Currently the Ody is outselling it ~2x,

 

Not true, Honda/Acura has the NSX V6 twin turbo which was a Honda designed 75o V6 with Cosworth built components (head/block and the pistons are manufactured by a Austrian firm who also makes pistons for F1 engines).
So Honda does build a 7500 RPM 500HP twin turbo for the Acura NSX in Ohio.

I'm expecting the J-series replacement in 2018 to be a large step up in terms of performance and spec's.

 

As for the SOHC being torquey or not, that has almost nothing to do with it being SOHC or DOHC, it's more about the camshaft lobe profile and timing as well as the bore and stroke of the motor (longer stroke is more torquey at lower RPM). Also if there is VTEC to consider how much air is entering as only one intake valve is open at lower RPM to promote better swirl and higher intake velocity for better and more uniform distribution of air/fuel mixture within the combustion chamber. So the traditional VTEC was to open the 2nd intake valve at high RPM (~4k) with more aggressive intake cam profile/timing for higher RPM power. The VTEC thing is highly debatable as to it's everyday vehicle operation usage but that's the theory at least.

 

Lol, it's Acura we are talking about right? They can say whatever they want and call the TLX a hyper car but the fact is that it's a compact near luxury sedan with little sport intention.

Don't get me wrong, I never say there is no market for a sports car in the Honda line up. All I am saying is, Honda currently does not have any V6 powered sports car that could use a higher revving J series or something. I am not saying that's the right thing to do.

My point is that, based on Honda's current models, a high revving V6 isn't what they really need. This is why I brought up S4, C43 AMG, 340i - because I feel a V6T what they need for their luxury models. Having a 350hp/270lbft V6 for a TLX/RLX would look good for paper racing, but out in the real world, that sort of engine would lack low end torque, which is probably more important for daily driving.

With that said, the NSX right now does have a boosted V6 that can also rev to 7500rpm. I think what you meant to say is that, Honda needs one of those engines for their other models.




LOL my bad. I jsut realized this is the Ody thread. No wonder you are not talking about the higher output VQ engines. Makes sense.

 

Usually when they lower the redline, it also means it will have more low end torque, by more i meant full torque at a lower rpm (whatever the torque # is)

It is necessary since Minivans are supposed to carry heavy people.

 

From what I understand SOHC engines have less moving parts and therefore should in theory be able to produce more power at lower RPMS (taking out extra features like vtech...etc) because it has to move less parts. This is also why in theory it should be more fuel efficient.

I was just simply stating my observation in multiple iterations of the J-series (I.E 2003 tl and pilot, 2005 pilot, multiple MDX's including my own) that the Honda J-seriesis is a tired old artifact and needs to be replaced with something that can make power at low rpms. I should not have to mash the throttle in my MDX to get respectable power out of it when driving in the city. For example a few times now I would get to the front if the second lane and realize my lane was closed up ahead, so I attempt to speed up and merge ahead of the second lane (in the non-deuciest way possible) and for the first few thousand RPM the equivalent of nothing happens. By the way this was my experience with the other J-seriee as well. It is like the engine wakes up, then starts screaming at 4000 rpm, then it starts to actually push.

On the other hand, my 2009 santa fe that has a 3.3l DOHC setup with 242hp weighing in at roughly 500 pounds less and throws me back a little when initially accelerating. The santa fe does die down at around 5000 rpm though, but IMHO that engine serves its' purpose well. It isn't intended for street racing and obviously in the city I prefer to keep my car around 2500-3000 rpm and under:

 

But how many cams though??

 

You can say that, but its a lot nicer than any other minivan on the market right now. Perhaps that will change with the next Odyssey, but I've putzed around in them all. Its by far has the most upscale feel.

 

yes and every plebe car is getting the TT V6. There's a reason I left it out It is way too expensive to put in anything but a 160+k super car.

 

I can't say I've looked at minivans much, as I'd have little use for one, however, I think the Pacifica is a home run as far as aesthetics are concerned. It's a good looking unit. However, the Odyssey was always the holy grail, as far as minivans went, since the 2G was released. I'm hoping Honda doesn't drop the ball for the next generation, but even the option of having the built in vacuum was mind blowingly smart IMO.

 

I have no hate for the Ody, always liked them. And even Chrysler took the vacuum idea for the Pacifica. But right now, aesthetics and quality of interior materials, Pacifica is current winner.

My wife refuses to drive a minivan...and our lease on the Cherokee is almost finished so we are looking for a replacement. My wife sat in the Pilot for about 2 seconds and got right out and said, "I don't like it, it feels really cheap" Her current top choice is getting another Highlander (which I got rid of our old one for the current jeep because I find them boring) and I want the Mazda CX9. Meh, depends on what deals can be had. Might end up with something completely different.