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Honda lost number 2 automaker spot in Japan

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Honda lost number 2 automaker spot in Japan

 
Old 02-04-2003, 05:58 PM
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Honda lost number 2 automaker spot in Japan

I really dont know how Nissan has done it. Talk about "textbook growth stretegy". The last 3 years at Nissan should be a case-study at Harvard. Carlos should be awarded as best CEO in the industry.

And we still have not seen cars like the Skyline GTR hit the streets. And now with the trucks, they will get even bigger.

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By YUZO YAMAGUCHI | Automotive News

TOKYO - With the biggest production increase among Japan's Big 5 automakers last year, Nissan Motor Co. reclaimed its title as Japan's No. 2 carmaker behind Toyota Motor Corp.

Nissan lost the ranking in 2001 when Honda Motor Co. outproduced it in Japan by nearly 115,000 units.

The once-troubled Nissan has shifted from cutting costs to beefing up its lineup with such new models as the March compact, 350Z sports car and Skyline coupe.

The shift to growth boosted Nissan's Japanese output of vehicles by 9.6 percent last year to 1.39 million.

Indeed, Nissan was the only one of the Big 5 - Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Mazda Motor Corp. - that saw its production in Japan grow faster than its production outside Japan in 2002.

Nissan hasn't released projected output figures for 2003 but said it expects to boost Japanese production again this year.

Toyota, the world's third largest automaker, has been shifting production of compacts such as the Yaris and Corolla to Europe from Japan, while expanding its North American output.

That held its production at home to a 3.9 percent gain.

Toyota's overseas output jumped 20.8 percent to 2.15 million units while Mazda's climbed 21.6 percent to 169,540. Nissan's, meanwhile, rose 6.5 percent to 1.30 million.

Both Honda and Mitsubishi produced more vehicles outside Japan than at home.

Honda's overseas output rose 10.8 percent to 1.51 million compared with 1.38 million in Japan.

Mitsubishi's overseas production, most of which was in Asia outside Japan, rose 14.1 percent to 951,340, while its Japan output rose 4.4 percent to 871,304.

This year, Toyota will face the effects of its globalization even more. It plans to cut its output in Japan by 3 percent while boosting overseas production by 15 percent to 2.48 million, the 11th consecutive year of rise.
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:09 PM
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if/when skyline hits america...im abadonning acura 4EVA

p.s. fuking g35 doesnt count
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:18 PM
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That's Japan...their market is dinky....I would also concentrate on the North American market as well. Honda is still No.2 in terms of revenue...and Honda is far smaller than Nissan, in terms, of size.
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:27 PM
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Define size.
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:36 PM
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Nissan= 125,099 number of employees
Honda= 120,600 number of employees

If that is what you mean by size moomaster.
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:47 PM
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Well, when Honda first overtook Nissan in Japan...they were a lot smaller...and this was before Nissan laid off a ton of employees. Also, what else does Nissan build? Don't they also do trucks and what not just like Mistubishi and Toyota? By far Honda is a better managed group and knows where the company's fortunes lie. In Japan, like Europe, Hondas are considered crap anyway...with the exception of the Type-Rs.....
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Old 02-04-2003, 07:25 PM
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Honda was the first to raise the bar for several cars/categories:

1991 NSX
1992 Integra GS-R (1.7L DOHC VTEC)
1994-2000 GS_R (1.8L DOHC VTEC) This became the STANDARD!!
2001 CL-S (3.2L SOHC VTEC - 260hp) Another standard
2001 RSX Type-S (2.0L DOHC iVTEC)

Now... companies like Nissan etc. are raising the bar... and Honda will come back with a vengeance!

Trust me... the new NSX will wipe out anything and everything short of a Murcielago or Enzo. The Z06 will be tough.. but then again its a freaking chevy! Unfortuantely it won't be price-competitive with the 350Z, but the NSX is at a different level anyways!

Honda should bring out the Accord Type-R to replace the CL-S and make the TL-S more powerful (spank the G35 sedan).

Anything else?
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by allmotor_2000
Honda was the first to raise the bar for several cars/categories:

1991 NSX
1992 Integra GS-R (1.7L DOHC VTEC)
1994-2000 GS_R (1.8L DOHC VTEC) This became the STANDARD!!
2001 CL-S (3.2L SOHC VTEC - 260hp) Another standard
2001 RSX Type-S (2.0L DOHC iVTEC)

Now... companies like Nissan etc. are raising the bar... and Honda will come back with a vengeance!

Honda should bring out the Accord Type-R to replace the CL-S and make the TL-S more powerful (spank the G35 sedan).

Anything else?
IMO, I'll agree with you on the NSX and only the Type R model of the 3G Integra (and maybe the new Accord V6) but on the rest, Honda didnt really raise any bar as I can't think of any competitors (mainly Japanese) that changed the cars in their lineup (or development strategy) because of a perceived bar raising with a B17A powered GSR or CL-S.

However, the NSX did push Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi to produce cars like the 300ZX TT, Supra TT and 3KGTVR4. And it was apparent that the Integra Type R did raise the bar and spurred Nissan, Toyota and probably Mazda to develop the Spec V, Celica GTS and Mazdaspeed Protege.

As for the ATR, I don't think you'll find as much enjoyment in the 212hp H22A powered Accord (be it Euro R or ATR) as you will in a 6sp, 260hp J32A2 powered CL-S.

But I will say, I think Honda does hold back some with what they sell in the US. i.e.:They still have no intention of bringing the new Integra Type R to the US. This thing is as quick as an automatic WRX and can outhandle any WRX.

Just my $.02.

Peace.
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Old 02-05-2003, 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by allmotor_2000
Honda was the first to raise the bar for several cars/categories:

1991 NSX
1992 Integra GS-R (1.7L DOHC VTEC)
1994-2000 GS_R (1.8L DOHC VTEC) This became the STANDARD!!
2001 CL-S (3.2L SOHC VTEC - 260hp) Another standard
2001 RSX Type-S (2.0L DOHC iVTEC)

Now... companies like Nissan etc. are raising the bar... and Honda will come back with a vengeance!

Trust me... the new NSX will wipe out anything and everything short of a Murcielago or Enzo. The Z06 will be tough.. but then again its a freaking chevy! Unfortuantely it won't be price-competitive with the 350Z, but the NSX is at a different level anyways!

Honda should bring out the Accord Type-R to replace the CL-S and make the TL-S more powerful (spank the G35 sedan).

Anything else?
What does that have to do with the numbers above chief? Honda is a great company but it is Nissan who is the star for the past 2 years. That's a fact. I wish Honda does come back and raises the bar. That way, we will benefit in the end with them fighting for each other's lives. I hope it does happen.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:08 AM
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I think we are forgetting 2 major things.

1. Nissan's product line is much larger than Hondas. It is amazing Honda sells so many cars from such few models.

2. Nissan has a 2-tier strategy.
1. Revamp line and make as many as possible as cheap as possible. (they did that with much success)
2. Work on keeping the cost down, i.e. more models made here.

I owned an old Nissan, I would not buy a new one. They gave quality the peace sign for profits. Can't blame em, it's a business.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:49 AM
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Nissan make better, cheaper and more realiable cars than Acura. Acura deserve to be 3rd.
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Old 02-05-2003, 11:18 AM
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Re: Honda lost number 2 automaker spot in Japan

Also to add, Toyota has finalized the deal to build there new plant right here in San Antonio Texas!!!! 4000 jobs, 80million in salarys! Awesome! Should produce its first truck in early 2004!

I was glad to hear that. Texas needs some more help with that!

Vehicles produced at this plant as of now will be Tundras and possibly SUVs.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by topdaytrader
Nissan make better, cheaper and more realiable cars than Acura. Acura deserve to be 3rd.
damn, this troll is still around?

I guess by this logic, GM cars must be the best, cheapest, and most reliable cars on the planet.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:58 PM
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Hey it's business

Nissan is doing all the right things. Making new cars more stylish more appealing, pricing them cheaper then competitors. Launching their MASSIVE ad compain. This is what got them to number 2. Honda has to step up and do more then what nissan did to regain #2 and to stay there. Or elese it Honda and Nissan will just be trading spaces every 2 years.

Honda did raise the bar...but isn't not only that--that matters. Toyota only had the Supra...it's been at #1 for along time now. It's not just the cars...it's also what comes with the name. Toyota is a word that is associated with value, reliablity, depedable. I'm not saying honda and nissan aren't all of this, it's strikes to the japanese public that toyota is "better". Car buyers will usually buy from the same manuf. if their experience with the car is good...they will also spread the word to their friends. This is probably the most effective way to advertise. But if you buy a car and you have a crap load of problems...you will most likely not buy from them again and not reccommend it to others.

What you have to do is make cars the way people want. And toyota does this...they listen to the consumer and build a car around them because the buyer is buying the car. Forums like this provide massive information to manuf. on what people want. People wanted a True Sport Coupe...Acura throw in a 6 speed CL.

You don't get much for raising the bar, you only get much if you perfect it. Like the technology sector...Americans invented TV and Radio...but when you go to BestBuys or GoodBuy what do you buy...Sony, Mishubitsi...you don't buy RCA. When you buy a computer motherboard...forget buying from AMD and Intel...go buy from VIA.


My .2 is that it's more than just product line that make you number 1 or 2 or 3.
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:37 PM
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Toyota is so far behind in the times....how long was the Integra out for until Toyota or Nissan came with something to counter it? The civic has bascially owned the sub-compact market....as well as the Accord v. Camry year end and year out. Nissan is still a distant third in the US...and that's what counts.
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Old 02-05-2003, 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by topdaytrader
Nissan make better, cheaper and more realiable cars than Acura. Acura deserve to be 3rd.
U are just trying to piss us off...
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by F23A4
IMO, I'll agree with you on the NSX and only the Type R model of the 3G Integra (and maybe the new Accord V6) but on the rest, Honda didnt really raise any bar as I can't think of any competitors (mainly Japanese) that changed the cars in their lineup (or development strategy) because of a perceived bar raising with a B17A powered GSR or CL-S.

However, the NSX did push Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi to produce cars like the 300ZX TT, Supra TT and 3KGTVR4. And it was apparent that the Integra Type R did raise the bar and spurred Nissan, Toyota and probably Mazda to develop the Spec V, Celica GTS and Mazdaspeed Protege.

As for the ATR, I don't think you'll find as much enjoyment in the 212hp H22A powered Accord (be it Euro R or ATR) as you will in a 6sp, 260hp J32A2 powered CL-S.

But I will say, I think Honda does hold back some with what they sell in the US. i.e.:They still have no intention of bringing the new Integra Type R to the US. This thing is as quick as an automatic WRX and can outhandle any WRX.

Just my $.02.

Peace.

Correct my if I'm wrong but I thought the 300zxTT came out in 1990 and was the first High Performance sports car from japan during the 90's. Didn't the NSX debut in 91?
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Old 02-05-2003, 04:20 PM
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You're right, the 1991 NSX debuted in mid-1990 and the ZXTT debuted in late 1989. However, the rumors surrounding Honda's development of a supercar were around for several years prior to the NSX's debut in mid 1990. (Now I'm showing my age )
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Old 02-05-2003, 09:04 PM
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Honda did raise the bar
What bar?
Toyota is so far behind in the times....how long was the Integra out for until Toyota or Nissan came with something to counter it? The civic has bascially owned the sub-compact market....as well as the Accord v. Camry year end and year out. Nissan is still a distant third in the US...and that's what counts
Toyota is the number #3 car maker IN THE WORLD. Not Japan. How the hell are they behind the times?
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
What bar?

Toyota is the number #3 car maker IN THE WORLD. Not Japan. How the hell are they behind the times?
I dont think they are #3 yet. They would have been #3 if Chrysler continued their market share decline in the next 4-5 years, but it does not look that way any more.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:33 PM
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Actually I will take that back. You are right. They are the world's number 3 automaker. My mistake.
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Old 02-06-2003, 02:26 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
[B]What bar?


I was agreeing to the point that the NSX is something other competitors didn't and haven't done. NSX is hand built "affordable" exotic car. Neither Toyota or Nissian has made a car like this.
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Old 02-06-2003, 03:30 AM
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ill be honest with everyone, ive gone through two toyotas and lexus, one acura and been in many accords all new models. i give it to toyota anyday. love my tls but i can tell a toyota is built better hence they deserve the place they are in. honda is still very good. but toyota has proven their reliability over and over and it still continues. honda and nissan are loosing it slowly.
oh and anyone ever noticed that a camry has the lowest hp of the group but still sells very well..... i wonder why!
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:03 PM
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What toyota lacks in power makes up for what they accomplish in other areas. For the most part...when people are in the market for a "family car" i don't think HP is their primary concern...they are more concerned with saftey, value, room, comfortable ride...etc. I agree with you that Toyota should be number 1 and they have proven it time after time with their cars. I had a 89 Camry before i got my TL-S...and the camry still shifts smoother than my TL. Toyota tranny shifts smoother and quieter than honda tranny.

When you're searching for a "Sport Sedan or Sport Coupe" it's a different story.
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
What bar?

Toyota is the number #3 car maker IN THE WORLD. Not Japan. How the hell are they behind the times?
What bar? The bar that they set for the sub-compact market with the civic and the sport compact market with the Integra. Also look at the age groups to tell you what is trendy. So selling the most cars in the world makes them an innovator? So by your reckoning GM is the best carmaker with the trendiest cars and newest technology? Give me a break...speak before you answer.
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by moomaster_99
What bar? The bar that they set for the sub-compact market with the civic and the sport compact market with the Integra. Also look at the age groups to tell you what is trendy. So selling the most cars in the world makes them an innovator? So by your reckoning GM is the best carmaker with the trendiest cars and newest technology? Give me a break...speak before you answer.
I'm not asking to be flamed here...but Honda did sold a lot of civic and the integra. Civics competitor was the Corolla. And between the corolla and the civic, most people opt for the civic because it looked a lot better than the corolla. But The toyota is learning from its mistakes and came out with the 03 Corolla...which will do better against the civic, but in my opinion will not catch up to the civic. The Integra was a long running car...a decade with the same design...it was a car that could be tuned. These two cars i think were aimed at teens and young tweenties...highschool and college people. Parents buying a first car for their kids...or they buying a car for themselves.

Bar - A standard, expectation, or degree of requirement: a leader whose example set a high bar for others.

This is the definition of "bar" from dictionary.com. I can think of every car manuf. that has raised the bar. Toyota raised the bar by having Navi on the Camry. Nissian raised the bar by sticking in a 3.5 liter in the altima. Acura with there 3.2 liter 260 HP. Was it GM/Ford/Dodge with there 4 door truck?

Honda has answered to toyota navi by having navi in the accord...still waiting for nissian. Honda replied to nissian with 3.0 liter 240 HP accord..still waiting for toyota. Infiniti slamed a 3.5 287 HP G35..waiting for an updated IS300. Now almost every truck has a option for 3 or 4 doors.

Selling the most cars doesn't make u an innovator....selling the most cars says that you are doing something "better or right" then other car manuf. Better doesn't have to be limited to quailty or performance but includes, advertising, marketing, price, value, style. Everyone wants to be number 1, to sell the most cars, to make the most profit. How to get to number 1 is the question.

One way toyota/lexus got to where they are buy offering a WIDE variety of models to choose from. Toyota has 19 models. Lexus has 8; while honda has 12 (3 civic modes) models acura has 6 (TSX is 6th) models.
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Habiib
Correct my if I'm wrong but I thought the 300zxTT came out in 1990 and was the first High Performance sports car from japan during the 90's. Didn't the NSX debut in 91?
Yep, Nissan may not have had the sales success but an argument could be made they pushed the performance bar in the early '90's more than any other Japanese manufacturer.

'90 222hp 300ZX/300hp 300ZX-TT , '91 240SX 155hp RWD

'91 SE-R 140hp FWD w/VLSD, '92 Maxima SE 190hp 5spd
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by F23A4
You're right, the 1991 NSX debuted in mid-1990 and the ZXTT debuted in late 1989. However, the rumors surrounding Honda's development of a supercar were around for several years prior to the NSX's debut in mid 1990. (Now I'm showing my age )
don't forget the Nissan MID 4 show cars from '85-'87
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Old 02-07-2003, 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by AcuraTLSFan
I'm not asking to be flamed here...but Honda did sold a lot of civic and the integra. Civics competitor was the Corolla. And between the corolla and the civic, most people opt for the civic because it looked a lot better than the corolla. But The toyota is learning from its mistakes and came out with the 03 Corolla...which will do better against the civic, but in my opinion will not catch up to the civic. The Integra was a long running car...a decade with the same design...it was a car that could be tuned. These two cars i think were aimed at teens and young tweenties...highschool and college people. Parents buying a first car for their kids...or they buying a car for themselves.

Bar - A standard, expectation, or degree of requirement: a leader whose example set a high bar for others.

This is the definition of "bar" from dictionary.com. I can think of every car manuf. that has raised the bar. Toyota raised the bar by having Navi on the Camry. Nissian raised the bar by sticking in a 3.5 liter in the altima. Acura with there 3.2 liter 260 HP. Was it GM/Ford/Dodge with there 4 door truck?

Honda has answered to toyota navi by having navi in the accord...still waiting for nissian. Honda replied to nissian with 3.0 liter 240 HP accord..still waiting for toyota. Infiniti slamed a 3.5 287 HP G35..waiting for an updated IS300. Now almost every truck has a option for 3 or 4 doors.

Selling the most cars doesn't make u an innovator....selling the most cars says that you are doing something "better or right" then other car manuf. Better doesn't have to be limited to quailty or performance but includes, advertising, marketing, price, value, style. Everyone wants to be number 1, to sell the most cars, to make the most profit. How to get to number 1 is the question.

One way toyota/lexus got to where they are buy offering a WIDE variety of models to choose from. Toyota has 19 models. Lexus has 8; while honda has 12 (3 civic modes) models acura has 6 (TSX is 6th) models.
You are right. Toyota did not raise the bar in terms of product attributes. But, they did raise the bar in terms of reputation and quality. Their business model is better than Hondas. They know who their customers are and they target all their vehicles to certain segments of the marget and nail them. Lexus is waaaay ahead of both Infiniti and Acura. Toyota's other segments are class leading (except for the Tundra).

I'm not surprised that Nissan overtook Honda because it wasn't too long ago when Honda overtook Nissan. These two are comparable in size.
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Old 02-07-2003, 09:47 AM
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What bar? The bar that they set for the sub-compact market with the civic and the sport compact market with the Integra. Also look at the age groups to tell you what is trendy. So selling the most cars in the world makes them an innovator? So by your reckoning GM is the best carmaker with the trendiest cars and newest technology? Give me a break...speak before you answer
Whoop-de-damn do. They can't even get that right. The new Civic LOST it's advantagous suspension and drives like a Kia now. I do give Honda lot's of credit for basically enchancing the sub-compact segment with reliability and a million aftermarket parts but the VW Golf was the originator.

The Camry had offered a V-6 for quite sometime before Honda finally did in what 1994?

Do ya'll remember how interiors looked before Toyota i.e. Lexus came along with the LS 400 and SC series? ALL car interiors pretty much sucked.

Panel gaps are closer cause of Toyota. Most cars were put together with people with 2 left hands.

The Supra did 0-60 in under 5 seconds back in 1993!!! For 40-45k. The NSX is very impressive can simply can't match the Supra's acceleration and it costs twice as much. I AM NOT saying I'd take a Supra over an NSX.

I think Toyota just does better market research and comes with products that the masses want and obviously are willing to pay for. Of course they have misses:

Paseo
T-100 (full size V-6 truck, no V-8 option)
Echo
etc

But most people don't give a flying fock about 0-60, most people don't take corners at the limits, most people don't speed, hell do they even wash their cars? Toyota understands that and gives products these people buy. And HONDA DOES TOO. If you think Honda is somehow more exciting than Toyota, they are equally boring. And people love their Hondas.

Nissan is taking the more power approach and it is working for them as some people like to be fooled. Cool. But they are letting interiors and quality take a serious back-seat, which is a short term approach to things.
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:00 AM
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I think the biggest bars that weres set by Honda included VTEC, double wishbone in cheap cars, and hp/liter numbers.

However, there are many "bars," so much so that you can name any company and define the standards that they have suddenly created.

In the 90's, Honda had a great influence on the car market, more so I think than any other. However, in the 00's, I think BMW is starting to take the lead.
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Old 02-07-2003, 06:34 PM
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VTEC is an enhancement of varible value timing...which most cars already had...Honda just marketed it as VTEC. Toyota reciently named it VVTi...BMW calls it VANOS.

The issue with the double wishbone is how people might percieve that it's superior to the MacPherson Strut setup...but both have their advantages. Porche uses MacPerson setup. Honda decided to lower cost by taking the double wishbone suspension off the lastest civic models.

Honda and BMW aren't even in the same league. BMW has always been in the lead with their 3 series sport sedan/coupe. And i think they will remain there.
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:41 PM
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[i]I was agreeing to the point that the NSX is something other competitors didn't and haven't done. NSX is hand built "affordable" exotic car. Neither Toyota or Nissian has made a car like this.
[/B]
the GTR is GOD is japan, not the nsx and 90k aint affordable.
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Old 02-08-2003, 01:25 AM
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Originally posted by heyitsme
the GTR is GOD is japan, not the nsx and 90k aint affordable.
Notice how "afforadable" is in quotes. The NSX is an exotic car...the GTR isn't considered as one.
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Old 02-08-2003, 01:48 AM
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Actually, VTEC was the first variable valve timing technology used on a production car. VVT-i, VANOS, et al came a little bit later. Even at that, VVT-i is poorly implemented and VANOS is not fully maximized. H/A has maximized this technology and that's why they are the pioneers of this technology.
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