vishnus11

wow, never heard this one before. Any references/sources to back this up, not that I don't believe you, but I can't really seem to remember reading too much about this. Especially when the new M has been compared favorbably to the 5 series.

I do agree with you on the fact that Honda can produce more hp/displacement than any other manufacturer out there, and they can do so reliably.

Motohip

I read in a car mag about the Porsche something (I think) and they said it has the most HP/ltr in the world and it only had 116/ltr. The S2000 has 120/ltr. I was so pissed!

Honda can make small displacement engine with a lot of horsepower, but they lack in torque. The always been the complaint. And with heavy ass luxury cars and SUV's, that's not acceptable. They need IMA in all the Acura's.

mrdeeno

Honda used to hold the record with the s2000 engine. But they bumped the displacement to 2.2L and lost that record (now 109hp/L), so currently, porsche has the highest HP per liter output of all production engines.

SteVTEC

That is total nonsense. Yes Honda "can" and does do that but it doesn't mean that other manufacturers "can't". It's simply a design philosophy. Why doesn't Toyota put VVTL-i in every single engine? Why doesn't Nissan put NeoVVL in every single engine they make? The unfortunate result of tuning engines for maximum peak horsepower at high RPM is that you tradeoff torque and powerband characteristics in the lower 75% of the rev band where you spend 99% of your time driving. If you have a close ratio manual tranny and a race track where you can drive 9/10ths or faster then this sort of all-out peak HP powerband is fine. But on the streets and even 1/4 mile tracks it's far from optimal, which answers the question above as to why Honda is really the only company out there that tunes their engines the way they do.

More peak horsepower does not mean "better" or that you're going to be "faster". It's really an over-rated spec and more for marketing than anything. The torque an engine produces and the power curve and shape are far more important for performance than some trivial peak hp number at 6000+ rpm where the engine will be for precisely 0.1s before upshifting and going waaaaay back down in the powerband again. Even F1 engines are not tuned for the all-out maximum peak horsepower that they "could" produce, because doing so would compromise the powerband, reduce maximum available torque and acceleration, and make the racecars overall slower not faster.

A blanket statement like this just isn't true either. I've actually owned V6's from each the Big 3 of Japan (all 3.0's) and the Nissan VQ30 is a far more refined engine than the Honda J30. The Honda beats the Toyota engine (1MZ), but the VQ is/was in a different league as far as refinement.

As for sophistication, there is really nothing special about the J-series and there never has been either. SOHC VTEC was recycled from the previous gen Civic and Accord. Belt driven? Heck, the 1st gen J-series engines did not even have knock control systems installed. Now we're in a world of contiuously variable cam phasing systems, single or dual, internal EGR, continuous optimization for torque at all RPMs and loads, etc. SOHC VTEC does none of this, and there are just plain limits as to what you can do with SOHC. And I guess that's why Honda is probably phasing out the engine.

Cog Neuro Sci

Of course I can produce the sources, but I won't. It's way too many and a waste of my time because many of the articles go back several years. To me and some others, it's just become common knowledge. I find it somewhat annoying and amusing that so many people, including Nissan fanbois, can gloss over comments that show up with such regularity that indicate consensus. Yet my background in the brain and behavioral sciences tells me it's not surprising at all.

I used to subscribe to 3 major magazines and I would read new car reviews and comparos religiously. A bunch of secondary mags say the exact same things. I would just start with the 3 major mags. I'm not sure how available articles are online (since I read from actual print versions) but it's probably the only efficient way. Just do a search on each of the Nissan/Infiniti cars for magazine articles or search each specific mag. Read the articles that came out JUST AFTER the initial arrival of the car. Trust me, it's a fact and they are there- over and over and over and over. You will see the same comments for almost the entire recent Nissan lineup.

phile

Turning this into a Nissan vs. Honda thread again...

Cog Neuro Sci

Uh, the blanket statement IS true. You have listed a bunch of "secondary" or "modular" items that can be applied to any engine, including things that Honda either invented or developed.

There is nothing all that special about the VQ. That is a fact. The VQ is one of the most important engines in the world BECAUSE of its pervasive influence throughout Nissan's lineup. Its recognition is more about it great socio-cultural influence on Nissan and the automotive industry, not its engineering excellence. Its societal influence goes hand-in-hand with the 350z/G35 phenomenon, which is so amazing that I would have to say that those 2 cars drive the entire market segment and have even largely performed (in sales) independently of market forces that negatively affect other cars in the market. It's approached cult status and those 2 forces, the cars and the engine, have reinforced each other's image in a way that is independent of technological superiority or engineering excellence.

So the VQ has had many years to reify such an image. Honda came out relatively later with its V6's; thus, Honda has more of a reputation for inline-4's than V6's, no surprise here. However, the fact is the Honda V6's are more refined (whether in SOHC or DOHC form, etc), smoother, better MPG, and more HP per displacement. Of course Honda has chosen not to use its DOHC V6 in its regular passenger cars, and this is the real issue.

SteVTEC

This apparently steering lag issue sounds like tires to me. And you've made some extremely typical honda "fanboi" statements also, so in that respect it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

mrdeeno

and i'm not involved this time! WTF!?!

mrdeeno

I don't know what's wrong with all of you! Honda makes the best engines in the world...they are at the top of every engine class: i4, v4, i6, v6, v8, v10, v12, v69, etc.

Their chassis are the best in the world also: FWD, RWD, LWD, 69WD, etc.

They are the greatest manufacturer in the world...it's not an opinion but a VERIFIABLE fact.

You want proof of this? Too bad, i'm not going to provide it...do YOUR OWN homework!

SteVTEC

well I guess I'll reply some more over the weekend when I get some time, assuming this hasn't been locked down by then.

phile

You had yours last time. No more soup for you!

dom

I hear Honda's changed their mind and decided against a V10 in the next NSX. They'll be putting in the 1.5L from the Fit instead.

phile

Speaking of the NSX, I was watching the history channel on a show about aluminum manufacturing. And when they got to the part about aluminum being used in cars...guess who they showed.

But now the steel manufacturers are catching up. Steel alloys are now becoming almost as light as aluminum, and pound for pound, steel is still cheaper than aluminum. Gotta wait for what's to come.

Cog Neuro Sci

When Honda's VTEC engines first came out in 1992 with the Civic Si hatchback, I noted to myself that it could be a double-edged sword. That 1.6 liter engine could make 125 peak HP, way more than other engines of the same size back at that time, but the torque seemed low compared to other cars with similar peak HP. But that is exactly the point- compared to other engines with the same peak HP WHEN WE SHOULD be comparing it to other engines with the same DISPLACEMENT.

When the S2000 first came out, I noted to myself that the magazine comments and criticisms were very similar to those about the 92 Civic Si. With further analysis, I concluded it was an unconscious perceptual CHOICE issue. Because Honda engines get so much HP in part through Honda's development of materials to increase redline, people now center their focus on the HP. Thus, we tend to compare Honda engines to other engines based on HP, when in fact we should compare based on displacement. IF WE DID, we would find that Honda engines produce torque that's at the same levels as other engines of the same displacement WHILE ALSO producing more HP (and higher redlines).

So why do we tend to compare Honda engines based on HP rather than displacement? First, HP is ingrained into our society (just like standard scores for the SAT are ingrained into our brains when we should instead be focused on percentile scores). Second, and very importantly, within each market segment, Honda puts in engines with less displacement than competitors in that segment. People are really focused on comparing cars (e.g., RL vs. GS vs. M) and price, and when you do that you're forced to compare an Acura 3.5L V6 to a 4.3L V8 and 4.5L V8. When you do this, and considering Honda pushes the peak HP for any given displacement to at least close to that of their competitors' HP, you're going to see an even greater discrepancy in torque. So Honda engines, for a given market segment) will appear to be close to the lead (but never quite there) in HP and quite a bit behind in torque.

Therefore, the real issue is about displacement. If Honda CHOSE to match the displacement and number of cylinders of Lexus and Infiniti, you can be sure the Honda engine would have comparable torque AND greater HP. The real question is if and when Honda will decide to finally match displacement.

mrdeeno

This would PERFECT for left-wheel drive.

I heard instead of aluminum, it'll be made from Hondasteel, the new alloy that's stronger and lighter than carbon fiber. it was discovered after they engineered Asimo to take a shit. He shat, and TADA...Hondasteel!

This came out a little over a year ago. I can provide sources to science articles, but there are too many and it's a waste of my time to go back that far for what should be common knowledge.

Cog Neuro Sci

My intelligence and training would not allow me to become a "fanboi" of anything.

Your "steering lag due to tires" statement is hilarious and ridiculous, wouldn't you say? Boy, I guess your powers of analysis figured it all out so simply what the mags concluded erroneously. So it was just the tires all along!!!

Read EVERY SINGLE word I've written. They are not made up by me. I got them through the literature across many mags across many years. Next, go find the sources FOR YOURSELF. Then try to verify what those sources say by driving the cars yourself WITH conscious attention to the alleged issues. Only then should you give your 2 cents.

BTW, I don't own a Honda.

mrdeeno

You're right, Honda's THEORETICAL 4.5L v8 has much more HP than Nissan's REAL 4.5L v8. Why didn't I see this before? THAT's why Honda engines are so much better than everyone else's...it's like taking magazine-racing to the next level!

dom

Ok, lets get this back on topic. Which is discussing the possibilities of future HONDA V6's/V8's.

Cog Neuro Sci

Let me give you a lesson in cognitive psychology. You sit at your pedestal and simply demand more evidence from anyone who makes a statement you don't want to hear. You display a frightening amount of the ol' German philosophical stance of "convince me." Accordingly, you jump on any statement as if the appropriate etiquette in a car forum is to write a comprehensive book with references and footnotes, yet you fail to consciously think about that fact that all comprehensive books can then be attacked in posthoc fashion anyway.

You have a pattern of not listing any criticisms of the VQ when so many well documented criticisms exist. I am convinced that you are holding back negative information about the VQ and instead calling peoples' bluff and REQUIRING THEM to answer to you. Who died and made you the King? This isn't Nazi Germany.

I recognized this pretty much immediately in you. And I let you know I'm not going to be pulled into your power and control games. My background has allowed me to deal effectively with your personality profile in the past, as you have already seen. I do not allow myself to answer to your whim, and that bothers you. Too bad.

As you can tell, I have produced several posts that actually answer many of the questions you previously DEMANDED from me. However, I don't write these posts in response to you; rather, I write them when and where I choose to.

BTW, shouldn't the guru practice what he preaches? When are you going to list down attributes of the VQ that make it superior or at least worth getting more than the Acura? Apparently you do not practice what you require of other people. Oh right, the human brain is designed to be egocentric.

Mrdeeno, I don't miss a thing. I am exceptionally detailed. You already know this. You will get to know this even more, if you choose to continue to engage me. You can try to match wits with me, you can try to call my bluff. But I don't bluff, and my wits will invariably eventually catch you around the corner, as you now know.

mrdeeno

Why so touchy?!? I'm agreeing with you that Honda rulez all and I'm learning how to argue JUST LIKE YOU!

SteVTEC

I'm an engineer, have two degrees, have been reading and studying engine design methodology and philosophy for years, have stacks of engineering textbooks, technical papers, and other technical journals relating to automotive and engine design sitting at home, and am a member of the SAE. I also help run two other forums. If you're saying that I need to read "Car & Driver magazine" before I should be allowed to speak on the topic of engine design then you're insane.

I could sit here all day long tearing apart these engines in detail and talking about the strengths and weaknesses of all of them (there is no perfect engine here). I can tell you precisely in technical terms why the VQ engines are smoother, just as I can tell you why in technical terms the Honda J engines tend to be a tad more efficient, and on and on and on. CAN YOU? I can also talk to you about mag bias.

Unfortunately I have to go catch a plane, give a formal technical presentation tomorrow, and will be busy all weekend, and I suspect this thread will be locked before I have a chance to explain anything. So you can keep running your mouth all you want, but just saying something doesn't make it true. You're a victim of your own delusions and flawed completely non-technical analysis, which is the natural result of reading mainstream automotive mags. And this is why other people are making completely sarcastic comments towards you, but obviously you are "too smart" to listen to anybody but yourself.

The VQ is not perfect. It's a great engine but it has its flaws, just as the Honda J-series does. There are more significant architectural limitations to the J though vs the Nissan VQ, which is why I believe Honda is phasing it out. Key among them is the bore spacing, which at 98 mm on the J (vs 108 mm on the VQ) leaves very little headroom in the J for expansion. They could not even put a 3.8 let alone a 4.0 in the Ridgeline. Would love to talk all day about this, but yeah I'm "too stupid" to comment cuz I haven't read da magz.

Time to catch my flight. Have fun.

Cog Neuro Sci

I already predicted your "mag racer" comment. A little bit hackneyed, wouldn't you say? Why did it take you so long? I actually thought you would say that earlier.

So I guess the analytical mind can't pull anything out of the mags and test those comments out for himself. So I guess the scientific literature in whatever domain is just a bunch of morons. Therefore, I guess other scientists can not analzye scientific articles for any strong inferences that might guide them in their own work and in testing their own hypotheses, such as the well founded "steering lag caused by tires" theory. Well, I guess we'll just have to hope we're born geniuses and can pull fanboi facts out of our asses (or purposefully keep those facts from coming out of our asses to protect our vested interests).

Your comment about comparing the M engine to a Honda engine that doesn't exist is logically irrelevant. You do understand this, don't you? Of course you do. Allow me at this point to encourage you to READ EVERY WORD I'VE WRITTEN once again. In addition, allow me to note to you and every witness here that you have just fallen into the psychological phenomenon I've described above that I call "unconscious perceptual choice." Your comments also give a window into some of your reasons for buying the M45: V8 and more HP than the RL. Essentially you focused on what the M has and what the RL doesn't have. You even ascribe some of that unconscious bias to my behavior when I have done none of that. If you allow yourself to read my words without overlaying your internal biases, then you will see clearly for once that what I have written is that we should be comparing displacement, that in any given displacement class, Honda engines produce more HP than their competition. Finally, what you should have done, in addition to comparing what the M has that the RL doesn't have, is then to deeply research the M's V8 ALL BY ITSELF without worrying about competitors' engines. This would includes praises and problems in its recent history. You better have bought that car based on the INDEPENDENT merits of that engine (since as you say the RL doesn't have a V8) without sweeping negative discoveries under the rug.

I'm going to give you a chance to reveal for everyone here what I KNOW you already know about the V8 in the M. That engine has a history of a certain problem, and I know that you know what it is. Yet you have not mentioned it once. Don't cry, but I will require YOU to announce what it is to everyone here.

mrdeeno

uh, words....words, hehe, words..

READ EVERY WORD I'VE WRITTEN CAREFULLY: I wouldve' bought the Acura RL V8, but honda's v8 has a certain inherent problem in its design also...it doesn't exist!

dom

Picky, picky.

Cog Neuro Sci

mrdeeno, let me add to the previous post that making a decision based on cost-benefits is fine. Everyone does that. The problem is when you are so obviously concerned about protecting your ego through the car that you purchased that you haven't even come out with the possible concern about the M's V8. If you came out with it (because I know you know what it is), then I can respect you more for your purchase. I myself made a calculated risk by buying a car with an engine that no one knows how long it will last and what issues might come up. EVERYONE who knows that car knows the issues and risks such that I couldn't even hide it to myself.

Why do you hide this information regarding the M's V8 and push so hard in favor of that car? And at the same time demand so much information from other people? Wouldn't you say that's a little inconsistent?

dom

I wish someone would tell me what the hell the apparent problem with the M45's V8 is.

levon1830

, because I am looking at getting an M45 as a replacement for my TL later on down the road (don't know exactly when yet).

Cog Neuro Sci

Your engineering expertise allowed you to come up with THIS hypothesis? THIS hypothesis was the result of your engineering expertise versus SEVERAL magazines' convergent but incompetent analyses?

If you read enough mags, you know each writer's individual tendencies, each magazines' wholesale biases (e.g., if it has a lot of HP for the price, Car and Driver will love it but another mag might not), and have determined for yourself areas where a car journalist/enthusiast who is not an engineer but who DRIVES A TON OF CARS FOR A LIVING is likely competent and incompetent. The convergence of several mags and the WAY in which they describe it strongly suggests they are not imagining something, do not have a thing against Nissan, and haven't overlooked the tires. Steve, think about your own bias. Do you really think a host of testers from a bunch of mags have all failed to consider a tire issue? You also are shortchanging my recount of their words. I am certain if you read THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE and WORDING in each of the mags, you yourself would not second guess what they say. Have you read those mag articles or are they worthless with regard to this issue?


In my field, the scientific community would have taken turns raping you and then thrown you into a garbage can.

Cog Neuro Sci

This is what we call Ego Reaction in my field. This can be taken to smaller or larger amounts, and I would have to say you've piled it to quite a level here.

Therefore, I'm going to respond in reverse fashion with a little bit of juice from my background. I noticed you went quite a ways with listing your background but you refrained from stating the colleges that you graduated from. My hunch is you did this purposefully. You did not mention that you did your undergrad at Caltech, MIT, or Harvey Mudd or your masters/Ph.D. from Caltech, MIT, Stanford, or even UCLA or University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Could this be because you did not go to any of those schools for engineering?

But let me say that you can still be good at what you do wherever you went for school. My point in bringing up the schools is to assert that your Ego BOTH made you say what you did and hide what you did not wish to say. That is bias. Your bias combined with your Ego also made you produce comments that (1), at least at some level, are irrelevant to my statements, (2) belittle other professions in ways that are irrelevant, (3) belittle people who acquire information from car mag professionals and underestimate the kinds of inferences that can be gotten, and (4) don't connect logically (e.g., why would your engineering background allow you to come up with a "tire hypothesis" that would be missed by magazine testers?).

Is your presentation going to be about steering lag due to tires?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

The problem is that it outdid the GS and lexus owners and aficianado's aren't happy about that.

Cog Neuro Sci

You could sit there all day doing all those technically difficult tasks but you didn't bother to do a simple search for the magazine comments and then go drive the fricking Altima and Maxima to analyze the situation firsthand in order to test what they say versus what you think BEFORE making the arrogantly premature statement "this apparently steering lag issue sounds like tires to me"?

My prediction: your Ego is going to cause your credibility to reach a level so mythical that it may surpass mrdeeno's.

MSZ

This is the most informative thread in AZ history.

phile

Teh Jatt

@ phile

Cog Neuro Sci

Are you saying that what happened to Steve's engineering education from the Army and DeVry Institute? Or are you suggesting that is the level of mrdeeno's brain functioning?

Because if that's what you're saying (and I don't want to put words in your mouth), then that has nothing to do with me. I prefer a more friendly atmosphere.

mrdeeno

What is wrong with you people?

I have found in the past half hour IRREFUTABLE PROOF that there is an apparent problem with Nissan's engines. I could cite sources, but I would rather jsut tell you how your EGO is so big (it may even surpass mine! <GASP!>) that you fail to accept this IRREFUTABLE PROOF and/or you failed to do your research CAREFULLY.

READ EVERY WORD..., my SUPERIOR intellect and EGO prevents me from being a "fanboi", especially since I am OBVIOUSLY not biased, and CAN support my statements with unbiased sources, but I won't do you a favor and provide these sources...DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK!!!


.

Besides, I just violated parole and might be

LOCKED DOWN!

phile

Hush, the mods might just take that suggestion literally...and I don't want to see this thread closed because of a few.

mrdeeno

Hey, all I know is that we were having a good discussion for awhile.

Then mr. "I AM SOOOO SMART AND YOUR EGO IS TOOOOO BIG AND I DON'T NEED TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE BENEATH ME" comes along and everything goes to shit.

And if you were over at the RL threads at all, this is not the first time.

Yet he's the one reporting ME to mods and saying things like

And this with only 24 posts under his belt!

I'm all for bringing this thread back on topic because we were having a good discussion before...but this guy's posts is just too hilarious to not bash.