mrdeeno

We aren't talking about Halo cars here, so don't change the subject. There's a big difference between getting an image boost due to a V8 than having a halo car.

The RL is a competent competitor with a lot of value. It has all the makings to compete with the V6 competitors in its class. Why does its sales suck so bad?

My answer:

Not having a V8 leads to a dissonance between the RL and it's competitors - "Why does the RL's competitors offer bigger engines while the RL does not?"

And since Joe Schmo is just a common man and not an enthusiast, he will ask himself this question and come up with an answer..."Acura isn't up to the league of XXX, YYY, or ZZZ, offering larger engines and more choices for me to spend my money."

And then he'll think, "Hmmm ...since Acura is not up to the league of XXX, YYY, or ZZZ, then Acura isn't a true luxury brand. They are a semi-luxury brand. The RL is a luxury car, but why would I want to buy a luxury car from only a "semi" luxury brand, when i can buy a luxury car from a true luxury brand?" And then he'll open several magazines that berate Acura for not having a V8 option, and read about shootouts between mid-size luxury V8 models and notice that the RL isn't even considered because it doesn't have a V8.

It makes no difference whether Joe Schmo ends up buying a V6 model or a V8 model. The damage has been done...joe schmo already put a check mark against Acura before he stepped out of his door to go car shopping. And you may think that Acura doesn't need buyers like Joe Schmo, but those customers are probably most of the customers that ended up buying 6-cylinder 5-series, E-classes, GS's, or M's and not RLs.

savage

I know this is going out on a limb, but...

How about a tuned down version of the NSX V10 in the RL???

Or at least the ability to get it as a option on a true Type-S or A-Spec Version of it...

phile

HAHAHAHA an optional V10 in a TL would be awesome...but only if Acura decides to make the TL RWD.

heyitsme

I'm not sure how many the car brought in with sales, but how many people did the NSX bring in with the whole vtec technology thing trickling down to cars like the Civic Si, Integra gsr/typeR etc. I doubt that type of technology sharing will really be duplicated for lower end Hondas again with this new NSX though.

importtuner

I was about to say; haha what if that v10 as FWD hahahahah!

heyitsme

There is another problem in all that which you scratched the surface.
Offering the v8 will solve one problem, but Acura doesn't 'option' like other luxury car companies altogether, not just engines. They need to learn how to have excessive features available as options for people to choose from rather than this one car fits em all thinking.

mrdeeno

They have started doing that:

2007 MDX:
4dr SUV AWD
4dr SUV AWD w/ Tech Package
4dr SUV AWD w/ Sport package
4dr SUV AWD w/ Tech and Enterntainment package
4dr SUV AWD w/ Sport, Entertainment package

The previous MDX only had a navigation or entertainment package, and neither of those is major options in my book.

And they have also started offering packages on the RL, especialyl since they are decontenting it.

It took them awhile to realize that "luxury" customers don't want a "one-size-fits-all" approach and they are taking steps in the right direction. Now the V8 is the next thing that "luxury" customers are complaining about and for some reason, Biker doesn't seem to think these customers should matter to Acura.

Moog-Type-S

Great move Honda....a V8 for Acura!!!


...welcome to the 1980's Honda. It took Honda almost 20 years to figure out that they need a V8 for Acura....meanwhile back in the late 1980's Toyota & Nissan figured this out at their luxury brand vehicle launches and had V8 engines from the beginning.

.....add to this that Honda still has not learned, and is attempting to limit V8 engines to the Acura line, and not add them to the Honda car/truck line......meanwhile V8 engines have been available for Toyota & Nissan owners for years.

I'll believe a Honda V8 when I see it.
...and "if" they do in fact build a V8, it still will be limited by the Honda "know-nothings" by limiting it's production to one or two vehicles in the Acura line.

heyitsme

That is strange, V8's aren't a premium only item and the fact that people within the company are still pushing for development means its way beyond too late. They will be developing v8's with hyundais luxury company.

Mokos23

No, but apparently you're the one who needs to grow up moron.

Duh, I know that the TL has a V6.

I was just curious why Acura doesn't follow Audi and put a V8 in a smaller car.
I would only want to put a V8 in a TSX if it had AWD in it like the S4 does.


Apparently Audi has guts and intuition that they thought of putting a V8 in a smaller car. The S4 is one of the best handling AWD sports luxury sedans out there.

heyitsme

^



Front heavy PIG?
HAHAHA

biker

A V8 in the line up has done little for Infiniti - the Q45 didn't bring in any customers and it has a V8 - the lack of sales was due to the badge and design of the car. The V8 in the M or Q is not why the G is/was a success. Acura needs to get the design and badge right before worrying about drivetrains. I guess it's a chicken-egg thing.

titan

I disagree. First, we're not talking about the Q... the RL competes directly with the M. The reason for the Q's failure was as you said; poor design and poor packaging (by the way, Infiniti will show a Concept Q at the Detriot show). A V8 has helped the M though. As with the Germans, it's not the volume seller, but it has cast the same glow over the M that a V8 would do for the RL. Ofcourse, the packaging and design was right for the M also...

mrdeeno

Why do you keep changing the subject? The G's success, or in Acura's case the TL and TSX's success, doesn't help Acura become a "true" premium competitor in the eyes of the masses. We are talkign about the lack of success of Acura's move into the $50k segment.

The Q45 was a decent car and failed for reasons other than the RL, not to mention the timing of when it was marketed and its competition. The RL is a much more capable competitor in its segment than the Q45 ever was. But because the masses don't think Acura is a true "premium/luxury" brand, they are more likely to disregard the "premium/luxury" offerings of that brand and only look to Acura for "near-luxury" cars.

You can continue to keep your head in the sand and "pretend" that masses think of Acura as a "true" luxury/premium brand and will buy their cars strictly on the merits. But if you open your eyes you will realize that the masses and probably 80% of BMW/MB/Lexus/Jag/LandRover/etc. owners purchased these cars, whethe r they were entry level or the most expensive offering, for the "image" of the brand first and the merits of the car 2nd.

The masses have implicit superficial requirements for what defines a "luxury" brand. If Acura can't meet all these requirements, then the masses won't consider it a true "luxury" brand, and Acura will never get off the ground selling true "luxury" cars, no matter how well its "merits" stack up against its competitors (RL).

charliemike

Not to mention Infiniti was marketing the 2G Q against the 5-series when it was really more the size of the 7er. Except that the Infiniti couldn't hold a candle to the 740i or the A8 despite the relative cost advantage. Then there's the Q45 vs LS4xx which wasn't even close.

The reason the M is doing as well as it has been is because it's appropriately sized, contented, and priced for the class in which it competes.

phile

Although I do expect the next Q to be closer to its 7-Series, S-Class, A8 and LS competitors.

biker

That's why I said they have to get the design AND badge (meaning change people's perception) right before having to worry about drive trains. Simply adding a V8, IMO, will not improve the badge issue. It could be done at the same time as other changes, but counting just on a V8 to solve Acura woes is a mistake

biker

Saleswise it may not have been a hit, but as far as features and performance the Q was right up there with everyone in the category. And it had the best headlights in the world.

mrdeeno

That's where I think you're wrong. I think Acura already has the design down. The RL is a great looking car, although the wheel design is slightly conservative, but it works. the features and technology also work. The only other thing they did wrong was not providing options and packages, which they have started to do lately.

The RL is a VERY competent competitor in its class...based ONLY on merit. the Acura badge now HAS all the ingredients needed to be comparable to the other luxury brands (technology, luxury, quality, price point, etc.)...all ingredients EXCEPT a V8.

biker

I have a feeling that if Acura added a V8 option to the RL tomorrow, the sales increase would be a short lived blip on the sales chart (and not affect the rest of the line up).

dom

Couldn't disagree more. The car is far too conservative IMO.

mrdeeno

It wasn't up there with everyone in the category at all.

It wasn't as quiet and plush as the LS400. It wasn't as sporty as the 7-series. And it didn't have the cache of the S500. The headlights were a gimmick that let them claim to have the "brightest headlights in the world", but technically probably by 5% which is unnoticable.

It was a decent but non-committed attempt at competing with the established players in a field that is even MORE competitive than the mid-size luxury segment.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

As much as I am amused with the idea of Acura introducing a V8 optional drivetrain, my real concern is where the development cost of the motor will end up. Honda isn't flush with cash like Toyota so I wouldn't be suprised if making a V8 motor available as an option results in a restructuring of the prices, making Acura lose some of its price advantage.

Here's hoping that won't be the case, but I wouldn't be too surprised if consumers get stuck picking up the check on this one.

dom

Don't worry. All the cash they'll have coming in from the Honda Jet and Asimo will cover this.

biker

Lots of things makers tout to differentiate themselves from the competition can be claimed as unnoticeable (who gives a crap that the new LS has an 8 sp AT)

Lots of those things are subjective - but if you looked at the paper specs for an S430, LS430, 740, A8, and Q45 for say MY2003 - the Q45 would not be missing much or any feature the others had.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not after ASIMO's faceplant....

biker

That's one of my points - lots of cash went down the NSX rat hole. And lots could go down the V8 rat hole without a sure payout at the other end. Development is so expensive these days that you can't just take chances willy-nilly just cause a check box on the perceived luxury chart is not checked.

dom

They have to cover all their bases here. I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But offering a V8 is the right move. Its just another tool to get the job done. And I don't see how Honda can grow anymore without one. Sure they have deisels on the way and are already a major Hybrid player. But like Toyota they have to be able to cater to everyone.

mrdeeno

And that's probably exactly how the guys in charge at honda justified not building a V8 before. But you and they can keep justifying it by thinking short term and watch as offerings from Hyundai start to surpass Acura's supposed "flagship".

Acura shouldn't be adding a V8 option for a sales increase tomorrow. they should be adding a V8 so the next generation RL isn't "handicapped" by the badge the day it starts selling, and the generation after that, and the generation after that.

They should've added a V8 10 years ago for the LONG TERM GROWTH of the brand.

If they never add a V8, which you still maintain is the best, then they will ALWAYS be late, and with each successive generation of failing $50k cars, they will be more and more late. Better to be a little late than to never arrive at all...otherwise they might as well fold up the Acura brand and roll it into Honda.

your justifications against a Honda V8 seem to get more and more outrageous. First it's because you fail to see the increase in sales from better brand recognition, then it's lack of effectiveness in the short term. What next? too much work and too few employees at Honda?

I just love it when people have such "defeatist" mindsets.

mrdeeno

That's funny...

You want to be a doctor, so you are interviewing for a position at a hospital as a doctor. they start checking off boxes and get to the one that says "Med School".

you tell them you didn't go to med school because you didn't want to put in all the money and risk not graduating because it wasn't a "SURE" thing. But you still want to be a doctor.

A "Halo" supercar isn't required to be a premium make. Lexus doesn't have one. Infiniti doesn't have one. Acura WASTED money on a NON-necessity.
how is developing a NECESSITY taking a willy-nilly chance? The only SURE thing is that if they DON'T develop a V8, they WILL NEVER be considered comparable to the top premium makes.

biker

The thing is that most folks improperly associate number of cylinders with prestige and power. What if Honda came up with a twin turbo V6 that made more power than most other V8s the competition has? Or if they came up with a fuel cell that had no cylinders at all but put out 400HP? Again, I don't think a V8 alone will pull Acura into the ranks of the others.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with Acura having a niche market that doesn't comply with the others in the category as long as it makes money.

mrdeeno

What's your point?

Honda/Acura is a business that sells, among many things, cars.

And if "most folks" associate the number of cylinders with prestige and power, then if Honda/Acura wants to sell to "most folks", which they OBVIOUSLY do as seen in their "one size fits all approach", then they should offer what "most folks" want that fit the market segment.

The market segment for near-luxury cars has its own requirements, and Acura is succeeding because it can meet these requirmeents.

The market segment for the midsize-luxury segment is different. Acura thinks it can apply the same requirements for the "near luxury" segment here by offering value and a one-size-fits-all approach, and it has come back and bit them in the ass. Not having a V8 in this segment has bit them in the ass.

Having a V8 isn't the only requirement in this segment, but it still IS a requirement. If they came up with fuel cells that make more power, or a turbo V6 that makes more power, that's fine but that's an even RISKIER proposition than building a V8, because it is ALREADY proven that a V8 is necessary to be successful in this segment. powerful fuel cells or turbo V6's are NOT PROVEN in this segment.

You are contradicting yourself. V8's have been proven by other automakers to be necessary to be successful in this segment, and if not "proven", definitely correlated. yet you say a V8 is taking a "willy-nilly" chance. But you then suggest powerful fuel cells or turbo engines, methods that are FAR from proven in this segment, as alternatives to a V8?

As for Acura having a niche market...there is nothing wrong with having a niche market if that is what the intention is. But you are wrong if you think Acura's intention is to have a niche market with the RL. There is NOTHING "niche" about the RL. Acura already justified not having a V6 by stating that it is adequate because it has power equal to some V8's.

They did not say "We only intend to capture V6 sales and leave the V8 market to our competitors". That would indicate they are only chasing a niche market. No, they are definitely not. They were chasing the midsize 6 AND 8-cylinder market because they felt that their V6 had enough power to compete with V8 models in this market.

You can "claim" the RL is in a "niche" market to make it look better, but that's like claiming you intended to get a traffic ticket, so that's why you sped. The truth of the matter is that it was never the true intention in the first place, just a "face-saving" maneuver.

biker

I guess we'll just to disagree. It's not the lack of a V8 that bit them in the ass - it's the lack of the badge and design that did it. I say that the RL would be selling just as poorly if it had a V8 from day 1.

Biker, who hasn't PWed this much in a long time.

biker

Just thought of another "what if". What if Acura had an option of a V8 with the same power ratings as the current V6 (and the V6 only had say 250HP)? Would it sell any better?

Moog-Type-S

Acura was the first out of the gate, and now they are far behind in the Asia-lux makes.

Honda has only themselves to blame. They started well, and then fumbled badly.
Other than the name change decision for models years ago, how many models have Acura dropped from their line compared to Lexus?? Lexus has evolved their line quite well, where as Acura for the majority of the line has done worse over the years.

The Legend (RL) and Integra (RSX) have gotten watered down over the years.
Add to that the no longer around models (CL, Vigor, SLX).

Honda's failure to conform and compete with the Germans & other Asian lux makes has been their downfall.

Vehicle designs over the years have hurt Acura, as well as lack of engine, drivetrain and transmission choices. If Acura wants to be mentioned in the same sentences as MB, BMW, Lexus, Audi, they have to do more to be like those other brands.....and at this point they are not.

mrdeeno

Forget about brand image of a V8 as a reason to have one...

ANOTHER reason to have a V8 (or to have one developed like 10 years ago!) is flexibility. Not only for Acura but also for all Honda cars/trucks in general.

The market is ever changing. Today may favor fuel economy of 4 and 6 cylinders. tomorrow may favor V8's and towing capacity. automakers with V8's at LEAST have the option of capturing that market. If it never comes, it never comes, but no one can predict the future so it's better to be more flexible and prepared.

As "flexible" as Honda is at manufacturing what they already developed, they are very INFLEXIBLE when it comes to meeting changes in market demand due to their stubborness to expand their product variety, and this has already been proven with the previous and current RL.

unlemming

Seems to be a lot of focus on the V8 and a car, which probably will only account for a small portion of car sales. But what about the 'light trucks'? The ridgeline, pilot, and MDX would all benefit from the V8 a lot more than the cars.
(I wouldn't mind a fuel efficient SH-AWD V8 TL though, VCM could really shine here too..)

phile

Or even venture into the full-size pickup market with that V8...

biker

That makes much more sense than trying to uplift sagging RL sales with a V8.

U8INIT

Not to worry...Acura is going to put their manolo blahniks the automotive worlds necks when its all said and done.....