Honda: CR-Z News **Facelift Revealed (page 31)**
#361
that pretty much sums it up.
#362
#364
Just for shits and grins, I looked at my posting history. Except for our discussions in this thread, I don't see a lot of evidence that I'm a blind supporter. In fact, I see very little 'rah rah' for Honda on my part. I just don't participate in the whine-fest.
https://acurazine.com/forums/search....archid=2916199
#365
Senior Moderator
Maybe car forums aren`t for you.
Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.
I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.
I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
#367
Senior Moderator
Jiminy Crickets, would you guys get back on topic?
I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.
I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....
I do agree with this too, though...
Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.
I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....
Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
Last edited by neuronbob; 01-12-2010 at 09:57 PM.
#369
Senior Moderator
Jiminy Crickets, would you guys get back on topic?
I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.
I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....
I do agree with this too, though...
Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.
I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....
I do agree with this too, though...
Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
#370
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
I absolutely love the ED (or EF ) body style. Ive had an 88 hatch and currently a 90 hatch that Im building. I love the handling, the feel, and most of all, the simplicity. My brother had a 90 CRX and that is the car that got me interested in Hondas. To this day Im pissed he sold it.
#371
Punk Rocker
Back on-topic, this is a disappointing car from a disappointing manufacturer with a disappointing engine and disappointing styling. It could have been a surprise homerun for Honda (Civic Si engine, style it like the concept, etc), but again Honda figures we are all just too dumb to understand their "new direction".
I'd say that direction is down the crapper....
I'd say that direction is down the crapper....
#372
I'm not sure where I read it, but someone posted that EPA mileage estimates are done under the 'power' mode. I'd bet this does better if driven in the other modes.
#373
Punk Rocker
Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
#374
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
In the past few years their concepts have been very close to the production vehicle. The main differences have been bumpers and lights and obviously ride height. The CRZ is no exception. Look at the main body, its is very similar. The front bumper is longer on the production model, but thats for crash standards.
Im quite surprised the rear bumper is that shallow honestly. It appears that simply getting rear ended is going to damage the hatch.
Overall, Im very pleased with the design of the CRZ. When it goes on sale I will take a look at it, no doubt. But its not on my list simply because of the powertrain and mileage numbers, even if they are in "power" mode. What Im most interested in seeing is the gap between the hood and the bumper. On the Accord coupe its a deal breaker for me. I like the car in white, and that gap is an instant eye sore.
Im quite surprised the rear bumper is that shallow honestly. It appears that simply getting rear ended is going to damage the hatch.
Overall, Im very pleased with the design of the CRZ. When it goes on sale I will take a look at it, no doubt. But its not on my list simply because of the powertrain and mileage numbers, even if they are in "power" mode. What Im most interested in seeing is the gap between the hood and the bumper. On the Accord coupe its a deal breaker for me. I like the car in white, and that gap is an instant eye sore.
Last edited by civicdrivr; 01-13-2010 at 12:28 AM.
#375
Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
however, that production CR-Z front overhang is horrible.
#376
Senior Moderator
BTW - for comparison, Motortrend has thus far achieved 38.9 MPG from their long term test Insight. In line with EPA estimates and no where near the 50 some claim to achieve.
Perhaps while traveling downhill with the engine off.
Perhaps while traveling downhill with the engine off.
#377
Safety Car
Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
#378
Senior Moderator
You see the front overhang on the CR-Z production
#379
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Still no excuse IMO, considering the price and unpracticality of it. If the standard non-hybrid Civic Coupe (which weighs 400-500lbs more) can get 36mpg hwy, whats the point of the CR-Z? Honda could have put the same powerplant in the CR-Z, dropped the price and gotten 40mpg easy ON EPA!
Also, according to EPA, the Honda Fit gets worse highway mileage than the Civic:
Fit 5AT: 27/33mpg - 30mpg combined
Fit 5MT: 27/33mpg - 29mpg combined (don't ask me why it's 1mpg lower)
Civic 5AT: 25/36mpg - 29mpg combined
Civic 5MT: 26/34mpg - 29mpg combined
CR-Z 6MT: 31/37mpg - 33mpg combined
CR-Z CVT: 36/38mpg - 37mpg combined
First, the Civic is more efficient because of the R18 engine. It's designed so that at light load, the throttle can still be wide open (as opposed to almost closed in a traditional engine), that greatly reduces pumping loss and improves fuel efficiently. The idea is similar to valvetronic. So even though the Civic is 400-500lb heavier than the Fit, it can still get better hwy gas mileage. As a result, it's irrelevant to compare the gas mileage of the Civic to the CRZ. When you compare the CRZ to the Fit though, you would see a 10% to 25% improvement in terms of combined mileage, depending on the gearbox chosen.
The question becomes, how come Honda doesn't drop the R18 engine and add the hybrid system? That would be 140hp from the engine + 13hp from the motor (combined output will probably be 150hp or so). They could even use the 20hp from the Civic hybrid and get 155hp combined. Who knows, may be there are some engineering difficulties that Honda hasn't solved yet with this setup, or may be it will come in the future as a higher performance model?
Underrating makes perfect sense when it comes to fuel efficiency. Why on earth would you want customers to know what MPG they will actually get. Its far more effective to let them be surprised so they can report back their mileage to people on the internet and hope word of mouth gets the message out.
Marketing FTL.
I think its a tad more realistic to presume that MOST people will actually get what the window sticker suggests.
I've yet to read any long term test where mileage figures are actually higher than the EPA ratings.
Marketing FTL.
I think its a tad more realistic to presume that MOST people will actually get what the window sticker suggests.
I've yet to read any long term test where mileage figures are actually higher than the EPA ratings.
My TL only gets around 22mpg around town, but it easily gets over 30mpg on the highway while hauling 4 people with a full trunk going from Vancouver to Calgary.
#380
Safety Car
#381
Senior Moderator
looks like crap to me, plus why would i buy that underpowered pos when i can get 34mpg hwy if i drive easy in my TL? Id rather sacrifice a few to be able to accelerate when needed.
#382
You'll Never Walk Alone
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But the TL will never be able to get anywhere close to 30mpg in city driving. I think that's the whole point for hybrids. They shine when it comes to city driving, but suck @$$ when it comes to hwy. Heck, why would anyone want a Fit when it can't even get 34mpg on the hwy like your TL.
#383
The sizzle in the Steak
#384
The sizzle in the Steak
Maybe car forums aren`t for you.
Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.
I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.
I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
#385
Suzuka Master
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Haha, I remember getting into some of these arguments. It's funny how some apologists and fanbois like to accuse the critics how they aren't 'open minded' and listen to reason, when they themselves are too closed minded to listen to the reasons why the critics are criticizing. I'm open minded, if Honda made a good move, I'm open minded enough to say, "hey, good move!". I'm just not blinded enough to try to find a "silver lining" where one doesn't exist when they make stupid moves.
And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!
And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!
Last edited by mrdeeno; 01-13-2010 at 11:09 AM.
#386
Not sure if this was posted yet.
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(hope the link works, I can't see flash at work)
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(hope the link works, I can't see flash at work)
#388
^^ but why would you build a hybrid car without the hybrid drivetrain?
#390
Someone on TOV was saying that the hybrid bits weighed in at about 120 lbs. You gain weight from the batteries, but save some because the IMA motor which is built into the flywheel, replaces the starter motor.
#391
Punk Rocker
Take a look at the Camaro/Challenger concept vs. production vehicles to understand my point...
#392
Race Director
The main thing they talked about in that video was performance - they didn't talk about mileage - the only reason to make it a hybrid. My point was, the performance could have been even better if it lost another 200+lbs, the cost would have been lower and mileage hit would have been minimal. Why saddle a fun little car with the weight, cost and complexity of a hybrid?
#393
The sizzle in the Steak
#394
The main thing they talked about in that video was performance - they didn't talk about mileage - the only reason to make it a hybrid. My point was, the performance could have been even better if it lost another 200+lbs, the cost would have been lower and mileage hit would have been minimal. Why saddle a fun little car with the weight, cost and complexity of a hybrid?
#395
Race Director
^ whatever the hybrid adds, it was not needed. Seems to me this was on the drawing board when "hybrid" everything was popular. Honda incorrectly assumes that simply placing a hybrid label onto something will help sell it. As they are finding out with the Insight, that doesn't work.
#396
That's entirely possible, I guess time will tell if they can move the expected 15K units a year. I am pleased that there seems to be a more 'premium' feel to the car (from what I've read), maybe it signals that the US is ready to embrace more upscale "B" type cars?
#397
I'm the Firestarter
Dude, both of these are almost identical to the concept.
#398
Three Wheelin'
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Haha, I remember getting into some of these arguments. It's funny how some apologists and fanbois like to accuse the critics how they aren't 'open minded' and listen to reason, when they themselves are too closed minded to listen to the reasons why the critics are criticizing. I'm open minded, if Honda made a good move, I'm open minded enough to say, "hey, good move!". I'm just not blinded enough to try to find a "silver lining" where one doesn't exist when they make stupid moves.
And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!
And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!
No offense, but even if it has a "premium" feel it's not going to be enough for this thing to sell considering the even more "premium" cheaper Fiesta has higher EPA MPGs and is more practical AND more powerful. I'm sure it's just as fun to drive too (DSG transmission ).
The CR-Z get's a big thumbs down from me, and even if gas mileage would have been sacrificed, I would have liked to see the CR-Z have the Si engine, and be a nice FWD performance Honda (since they have no more true performance cars).
#399
sigh. I keep looking for a bright spot in the story, for instance a "CR-Z Si announced with updated K-series engine, 6MT and without hybrid motor" story but sadly I've lost the promise I once saw in this car
Just like Toyota's enthusiast appeal disappeared into nothingness in the '00s, Honda's is going in the '10s. Maybe there will be a resurgence in the '20s just like Toyota is doing right now....
Just like Toyota's enthusiast appeal disappeared into nothingness in the '00s, Honda's is going in the '10s. Maybe there will be a resurgence in the '20s just like Toyota is doing right now....
#400
As I said, time will tell. Most of what I've see states that the Fiesta will have 119 hp. Isn't that lower than the quoted CR-Z rating? Has Ford changed their plans? I don't think any pricing has been revealed, but I'd guess top models of both will be pretty closely priced.