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Honda: CR-Z News **Facelift Revealed (page 31)**

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Honda: CR-Z News **Facelift Revealed (page 31)**

 
Old 01-12-2010, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr View Post


that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 01-12-2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dom View Post
But its become clear that you don't see the negative and continually refuse to acknowledge it.
The only thing that should be clear is that I see the pluses and minuses but don't see the need to whine in every post.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:07 PM
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But of course voicing an opinion thats negative of Honda is whining.

I think we`re done here.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dom View Post
But of course voicing an opinion thats negative of Honda is whining.

I think we`re done here.
Nope, it's not whining till you say the same thing 50 times. (yes, that is an exaggeration to make a point)

Just for shits and grins, I looked at my posting history. Except for our discussions in this thread, I don't see a lot of evidence that I'm a blind supporter. In fact, I see very little 'rah rah' for Honda on my part. I just don't participate in the whine-fest.

https://acurazine.com/forums/search....archid=2916199
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:29 PM
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Maybe car forums aren`t for you.

Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.

I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by I Go To Costco View Post


that pretty much sums it up.
Nicely....
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:54 PM
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Jiminy Crickets, would you guys get back on topic?

I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.

I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....



Originally Posted by civicdrivr View Post
I do agree with this too, though...

Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.

Last edited by neuronbob; 01-12-2010 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:00 PM
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Maybe someone needs a name change to, "The Honda Apologist?"

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Old 01-12-2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by neuronbob View Post
Jiminy Crickets, would you guys get back on topic?

I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.

I'm disappointed in the mileage too, but it's a first effort and I'm sure improvements will be made. I truly, truly wish that Honda sees the potential for a nice-looking pocket rocket and puts a decently large gas engine in it as an OPTION. Pleaseopleaseoplease? Don't let the promise of the styling go unfulfilled....





I do agree with this too, though...

Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:32 PM
  #370  
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Originally Posted by neuronbob View Post
Damn, the CRX Si was pure sex for its time. Maybe I'll go pick one up cheap just for the memories.
Ive been searching for the one for some time now. My efforts have not yet awarded me

I absolutely love the ED (or EF ) body style. Ive had an 88 hatch and currently a 90 hatch that Im building. I love the handling, the feel, and most of all, the simplicity. My brother had a 90 CRX and that is the car that got me interested in Hondas. To this day Im pissed he sold it.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:12 PM
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Back on-topic, this is a disappointing car from a disappointing manufacturer with a disappointing engine and disappointing styling. It could have been a surprise homerun for Honda (Civic Si engine, style it like the concept, etc), but again Honda figures we are all just too dumb to understand their "new direction".

I'd say that direction is down the crapper....
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dom View Post
Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.
Would that be for the open exchange of information, ideas and opinions? Key word here is "open" It seems that if you don't share the popular opinion, you are labeled "fanboi" (this by you) or "apologist" (below).

Originally Posted by West6MT View Post
Maybe someone needs a name change to, "The Honda Apologist?"
Originally Posted by neuronbob View Post
Jiminy Crickets, would you guys get back on topic?

I plan to go see the CR-Z in person Saturday in Detroit.
That sounds like a lot of fun. I'm curious how tall the car's roofline is. Does it feel like the old CRX?

I'm not sure where I read it, but someone posted that EPA mileage estimates are done under the 'power' mode. I'd bet this does better if driven in the other modes.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:55 PM
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Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????









Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
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Old 01-13-2010, 12:25 AM
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In the past few years their concepts have been very close to the production vehicle. The main differences have been bumpers and lights and obviously ride height. The CRZ is no exception. Look at the main body, its is very similar. The front bumper is longer on the production model, but thats for crash standards.

Im quite surprised the rear bumper is that shallow honestly. It appears that simply getting rear ended is going to damage the hatch.

Overall, Im very pleased with the design of the CRZ. When it goes on sale I will take a look at it, no doubt. But its not on my list simply because of the powertrain and mileage numbers, even if they are in "power" mode. What Im most interested in seeing is the gap between the hood and the bumper. On the Accord coupe its a deal breaker for me. I like the car in white, and that gap is an instant eye sore.

Last edited by civicdrivr; 01-13-2010 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 01-13-2010, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric View Post
Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????

Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
the Accord concept/production variance is minimal, as is the CR-Z.

however, that production CR-Z front overhang is horrible.
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:03 AM
  #376  
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BTW - for comparison, Motortrend has thus far achieved 38.9 MPG from their long term test Insight. In line with EPA estimates and no where near the 50 some claim to achieve.

Perhaps while traveling downhill with the engine off.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric View Post
Why can HOnda never build a production car even remotely the same as the concept????









Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
oh, i thought you were being facetious. i was waiting for the punchline. your two examples are proving the complete opposite. very very minimal descrepancies between the concept & production, esp. when compared to most.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermonMermon View Post
oh, i thought you were being facetious. i was waiting for the punchline. your two examples are proving the complete opposite. very very minimal descrepancies between the concept & production, esp. when compared to most.
You see the front overhang on the CR-Z production
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by (Cj) View Post
Still no excuse IMO, considering the price and unpracticality of it. If the standard non-hybrid Civic Coupe (which weighs 400-500lbs more) can get 36mpg hwy, whats the point of the CR-Z? Honda could have put the same powerplant in the CR-Z, dropped the price and gotten 40mpg easy ON EPA!
I don't think hybrids are known for getting good mileage on the highway, especially for the simple system that Honda is using. Bottom line is, how do you expect to capture any kinetic energy when you are not slowing down?

Also, according to EPA, the Honda Fit gets worse highway mileage than the Civic:

Fit 5AT: 27/33mpg - 30mpg combined
Fit 5MT: 27/33mpg - 29mpg combined (don't ask me why it's 1mpg lower)
Civic 5AT: 25/36mpg - 29mpg combined
Civic 5MT: 26/34mpg - 29mpg combined
CR-Z 6MT: 31/37mpg - 33mpg combined
CR-Z CVT: 36/38mpg - 37mpg combined

First, the Civic is more efficient because of the R18 engine. It's designed so that at light load, the throttle can still be wide open (as opposed to almost closed in a traditional engine), that greatly reduces pumping loss and improves fuel efficiently. The idea is similar to valvetronic. So even though the Civic is 400-500lb heavier than the Fit, it can still get better hwy gas mileage. As a result, it's irrelevant to compare the gas mileage of the Civic to the CRZ. When you compare the CRZ to the Fit though, you would see a 10% to 25% improvement in terms of combined mileage, depending on the gearbox chosen.

The question becomes, how come Honda doesn't drop the R18 engine and add the hybrid system? That would be 140hp from the engine + 13hp from the motor (combined output will probably be 150hp or so). They could even use the 20hp from the Civic hybrid and get 155hp combined. Who knows, may be there are some engineering difficulties that Honda hasn't solved yet with this setup, or may be it will come in the future as a higher performance model?


Originally Posted by dom View Post
Underrating makes perfect sense when it comes to fuel efficiency. Why on earth would you want customers to know what MPG they will actually get. Its far more effective to let them be surprised so they can report back their mileage to people on the internet and hope word of mouth gets the message out.

Marketing FTL.



I think its a tad more realistic to presume that MOST people will actually get what the window sticker suggests.

I've yet to read any long term test where mileage figures are actually higher than the EPA ratings.
If I remember correctly, some Civic Hybrid owners Sue Honda over mileage. Perhaps that's why they are more conservative with their ratings now?

Originally Posted by majin ssj eric View Post
My point is, why build a sporty-looking little pocket rocket then strap it with a useless hybrid engine. If I want a sporty car I want performance, not mpg....
Think of it as a way for Honda to meet the 2016 Cafe standards. Besides, they have the Civic Si for those who want a sporty car with performance + great aftermarket support. At least they are trying something new and committing to their "green" direction.

Originally Posted by phee View Post
bs on underrating gas milage. my tl has never gotten higher than 21mpg. until i swapped it. now i get 29-30
My TL only gets around 22mpg around town, but it easily gets over 30mpg on the highway while hauling 4 people with a full trunk going from Vancouver to Calgary.
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1 View Post
You see the front overhang on the CR-Z production
its not that far off from the concept. the darker color is playing tricks as well.
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:14 AM
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looks like crap to me, plus why would i buy that underpowered pos when i can get 34mpg hwy if i drive easy in my TL? Id rather sacrifice a few to be able to accelerate when needed.
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:06 AM
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But the TL will never be able to get anywhere close to 30mpg in city driving. I think that's the whole point for hybrids. They shine when it comes to city driving, but suck @$$ when it comes to hwy. Heck, why would anyone want a Fit when it can't even get 34mpg on the hwy like your TL.
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1 View Post
You see the front overhang on the CR-Z production
Holy........that overhang!!!!!

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Old 01-13-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dom View Post
Maybe car forums aren`t for you.

Shall I explain why we have car forums one more time. Because I don`t think you get the point eventhough I`ve explained it a few times already.

I actually thought my first post about the about the cars Honda sold at one point was pretty constructive to the topic of the CR-Z. I think it was pretty clear they owned the segment that they`re now trying to recapture with the CR-Z.
You can lead a horse to water.........
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:07 AM
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Haha, I remember getting into some of these arguments. It's funny how some apologists and fanbois like to accuse the critics how they aren't 'open minded' and listen to reason, when they themselves are too closed minded to listen to the reasons why the critics are criticizing. I'm open minded, if Honda made a good move, I'm open minded enough to say, "hey, good move!". I'm just not blinded enough to try to find a "silver lining" where one doesn't exist when they make stupid moves.

And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!

Last edited by mrdeeno; 01-13-2010 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:35 PM
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Not sure if this was posted yet.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xd8jUocZZ-0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_GB&feature =player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xd8jUocZZ-0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_GB&feature =player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

(hope the link works, I can't see flash at work)
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:59 PM
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One has to wonder how much better the car would have been without the added weight and complexity that IMA adds.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:26 PM
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^^ but why would you build a hybrid car without the hybrid drivetrain?
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:56 PM
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we dont want another hybrid
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
One has to wonder how much better the car would have been without the added weight and complexity that IMA adds.
Someone on TOV was saying that the hybrid bits weighed in at about 120 lbs. You gain weight from the batteries, but save some because the IMA motor which is built into the flywheel, replaces the starter motor.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermonMermon View Post
oh, i thought you were being facetious. i was waiting for the punchline. your two examples are proving the complete opposite. very very minimal descrepancies between the concept & production, esp. when compared to most.
Take a look at the Camaro/Challenger concept vs. production vehicles to understand my point...
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin View Post
^^ but why would you build a hybrid car without the hybrid drivetrain?
The main thing they talked about in that video was performance - they didn't talk about mileage - the only reason to make it a hybrid. My point was, the performance could have been even better if it lost another 200+lbs, the cost would have been lower and mileage hit would have been minimal. Why saddle a fun little car with the weight, cost and complexity of a hybrid?
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin View Post
^^ but why would you build a hybrid car without the hybrid drivetrain?
but why did you dodge his question?
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by biker View Post
The main thing they talked about in that video was performance - they didn't talk about mileage - the only reason to make it a hybrid. My point was, the performance could have been even better if it lost another 200+lbs, the cost would have been lower and mileage hit would have been minimal. Why saddle a fun little car with the weight, cost and complexity of a hybrid?
Yeah, I noticed that. Maybe there are a series of clips? You would think they's also want to talk about hybrid tech and design? Also, the consensus seems to be that the Insight hybrid setup adds 120 (also seen 145) pounds to the car. The Civic setup with the larger batteries might be closer to 200.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:36 PM
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^ whatever the hybrid adds, it was not needed. Seems to me this was on the drawing board when "hybrid" everything was popular. Honda incorrectly assumes that simply placing a hybrid label onto something will help sell it. As they are finding out with the Insight, that doesn't work.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:51 PM
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That's entirely possible, I guess time will tell if they can move the expected 15K units a year. I am pleased that there seems to be a more 'premium' feel to the car (from what I've read), maybe it signals that the US is ready to embrace more upscale "B" type cars?
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric View Post
Seriously, when GM brought out the production Camaro and CTS they looked almost identical to the concepts. WHy the hell does Honda build a beautiful concept and then completely ruin it on the production version???
Dude, both of these are almost identical to the concept.
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Old 01-15-2010, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno View Post
Haha, I remember getting into some of these arguments. It's funny how some apologists and fanbois like to accuse the critics how they aren't 'open minded' and listen to reason, when they themselves are too closed minded to listen to the reasons why the critics are criticizing. I'm open minded, if Honda made a good move, I'm open minded enough to say, "hey, good move!". I'm just not blinded enough to try to find a "silver lining" where one doesn't exist when they make stupid moves.

And just remember, presenting justification for why honda makes asinine decisions doesn't mean the decision still isn't asinine!
+1

Originally Posted by Colin View Post
That's entirely possible, I guess time will tell if they can move the expected 15K units a year. I am pleased that there seems to be a more 'premium' feel to the car (from what I've read), maybe it signals that the US is ready to embrace more upscale "B" type cars?
I don't think they'll sell that many since that's about the rate that the Insight is selling at.

No offense, but even if it has a "premium" feel it's not going to be enough for this thing to sell considering the even more "premium" cheaper Fiesta has higher EPA MPGs and is more practical AND more powerful. I'm sure it's just as fun to drive too (DSG transmission ).

The CR-Z get's a big thumbs down from me, and even if gas mileage would have been sacrificed, I would have liked to see the CR-Z have the Si engine, and be a nice FWD performance Honda (since they have no more true performance cars).
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Old 01-15-2010, 04:56 PM
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sigh. I keep looking for a bright spot in the story, for instance a "CR-Z Si announced with updated K-series engine, 6MT and without hybrid motor" story but sadly I've lost the promise I once saw in this car

Just like Toyota's enthusiast appeal disappeared into nothingness in the '00s, Honda's is going in the '10s. Maybe there will be a resurgence in the '20s just like Toyota is doing right now....
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by (Cj) View Post
No offense, but even if it has a "premium" feel it's not going to be enough for this thing to sell considering the even more "premium" cheaper Fiesta has higher EPA MPGs and is more practical AND more powerful. I'm sure it's just as fun to drive too (DSG transmission ).
As I said, time will tell. Most of what I've see states that the Fiesta will have 119 hp. Isn't that lower than the quoted CR-Z rating? Has Ford changed their plans? I don't think any pricing has been revealed, but I'd guess top models of both will be pretty closely priced.
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