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Honda: Accord News **Sales Decline (page 108)**

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Honda: Accord News **Sales Decline (page 108)**

 
Old 01-05-2004, 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
I smell trade in
I agree
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Old 01-05-2004, 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by domn
"VCM will also be applied to another new model being introduced later this year."


Hmmm I wonder what other Honda product will be getting VCM? Must be the TL since its engine most closely resembles the 3.0L Accords.
How about the RL? That was my first thought ...
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Old 01-05-2004, 12:26 PM
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you know we are all dreaming of a ima tsx

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/a...y.php?id=34849
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Old 01-05-2004, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
you know we are all dreaming of a ima tsx

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/a...y.php?id=34849
This might be my favorite quote of all time about the TSX/Euro Accord:

"The Accord has been engineered to accept IMA, and our Dual Note concept demonstrated that hybrids can be more than simply about economy," said our source.
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Old 01-05-2004, 12:36 PM
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If memory serves me right Cadilac had a VCM like fuel savings feature back in the mid 90s in a V8. I don't think anything other than a V configured engine will have this since the way this is done is by shutting down one of the banks of the V. That's why in the article it says when VCM is employed it will run on 3 cylinders. The reason for this is that there are seperate valvetrains on the two sides of the V which can be controlled independantly. In any kind of inline configuration you only have one or two cams which you can't seperate (you can't shut down two cylinders).

The V6 IMA was announced by the head of Honda during the Tokyo auto show last Oct (when he also said it could fit in any vehicle that curently has a V6). The only real news is that they decided to go whole hog and stick into an Accord. The Ody will probably be next along with the TL. And as many have assumed the RL will also get something like this. If the current hybrid Civic is any indication be prepared to shell out about $4-5K more than a regular model, live with a smaller trunk (that's where the battery pack will probably end up) carry around a couple hundred pounds more of weight and in 5 years be prepared for a $4k battery change!!

No thanks, I'll wait for version 3.0 before I bite (I think we're around V 1.1 now).
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Old 01-05-2004, 01:16 PM
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You make some good points biker. We should all remember that this IMA Accord will cost a good 5K over the current version and require that expensive battery change.

Still big news because it will definently sell and give Honda some much needed credibility.
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:01 PM
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remember IMA and VCM are different things. VCM is the ability to deactive cylinders. IMA is the integrated motors on the rear wheels. You can still run IMA with an inline motrow without the VCM. You wont' see as big a benfit in terms of fuel economy but increases of 10-20 percent are feasible IMO with very solid performance gains.
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by domn
You make some good points biker. We should all remember that this IMA Accord will cost a good 5K over the current version and require that expensive battery change.

Still big news because it will definently sell and give Honda some much needed credibility.
No it will not cost 5K more to buy an Accord IMA vs a regular V6 Accord. The whole point of using it on the Accord is mass production. It helps lower the cost of IMA. I say it will cost about $2,00.00-$2,500.00 or so more than a V6.
Difference right now between a Civic EX vs Hybrid is +$2,390.00
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:21 PM
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Justin don't forget this car also has VCM AND IMA. The current Accord has neither, so its will be at least 5k more US IMO.

Civic Hybrid is $6k more CAD than a Civic Sedan Si (EX) here in Canada. An Accord EX V6 is $32,700 so I would easily expect this car to be $38K-$40K CAD. I know these are Canadian prices but its still alot more $$$
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
IMA is the integrated motors on the rear wheels.
I'm sure this new Accord will have the motors on the front wheels. Or are you saying the motors are postioned near the rear wheels but still only drive the front?
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by domn
"VCM will also be applied to another new model being introduced later this year."


Hmmm I wonder what other Honda product will be getting VCM? Must be the TL since its engine most closely resembles the 3.0L Accords.
I'm thinking RL or NSX (but most likely RL). Because they said "another new model introduced later this year". The TL was introduced last year. Besides, Honda has already said the next RL will not be FWD and we know it won't be RWD.
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by AcuraFan
Besides, Honda has already said the next RL will not be FWD and we know it won't be RWD.
I agree that the next VCM engine will come from the RL but what does VCM have to do with FWD or RWD? That should'nt matter, VCM only controls cylinders and has nothing to do with IMA. You thinking the next RL with be VCM AND IMA as well? I think so too.
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by domn
I agree that the next VCM engine will come from the RL but what does VCM have to do with FWD or RWD? That should'nt matter, VCM only controls cylinders and has nothing to do with IMA. You thinking the next RL with be VCM AND IMA as well? I think so too.
Right...the way it sounds to me, they're mating these two technologies together (sort of a 1-2 punch for economy). So I think they'll use both on the new RL...unless of course this "new" car to be introduced is something entirely new like the SUT or something. But it seems to fit best with what Acura is doing on the RL.
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Old 01-05-2004, 04:11 PM
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6 Months after Accord Release--We got TSX..
So 6 months later Spring 05 <---a Hybrid TSX (Possible AWD too) TSX with VCM and IMA?
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Old 01-05-2004, 04:38 PM
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I think you all should rush out and buy these IMA-equipped vehicles, and report back how they held up for the rest of us
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Old 01-05-2004, 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by domn
I'm sure this new Accord will have the motors on the front wheels. Or are you saying the motors are postioned near the rear wheels but still only drive the front?
Yeah it will be FF still, but in all the descritipns of IMA i've seen the electric motors are on the rear wheel hubs. How does it work the the civic hybrid?
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Old 01-05-2004, 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by TinkySD
Yeah it will be FF still, but in all the descritipns of IMA i've seen the electric motors are on the rear wheel hubs. How does it work the the civic hybrid?
I think they're on the back of the rear seats, which is why the Civic hybrid doesn't have fold down rear seats while the regular Civics do.
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Old 01-06-2004, 01:44 AM
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The IMA motor is inline/next to the the gas engine in the front of the car - it drives the same shaft into the tranny. The thing that is in the back of the back seat (and in the trunk) is the battery pack that's used when the system changes to electric mode only.

It would be interesting to see the numbers for the Civic hyrid because I think they would indicate wheather the novelty has worn off or if this hybrid thing has any legs. I know a person who bought the Civic hybrid and it was not for the milage - he bought it because it qulifies him to use the HOV lanes in No. VA driving alone (and there's also some IRS incentive).

At an extra $4K to start and $4K every 5 years for the battery pack (can you say "drop off the cliff" resale value for one of these when they get to be 5 years old) the 20-30% milage gain does not make sense finacially. But as someone said once the mass production kicks and the technology improves it might start to make sense.

Honda probably makes no money on any hybrid on sales price alone. They get an incentive from the gov't (I think somewhere around $2K per car up to the first 20K units) to make money.

One other thing to consider - with IMA you can't have a manual tranny (well at least not yet). Maybe when I get really old I'll think about switching to an AT and then an IMA might be in the cards. Until then, give me that MT with a dino juice sipping engine only.
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Old 01-06-2004, 08:32 AM
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Hybrid Accord coming in the fall

Hybrid Accord coming in the fall

By Kathy Jackson
Automotive News / January 05, 2004

Honda Motor Co. Ltd. plans to add a third gasoline-electric hybrid to its lineup in the United States this fall.

President Takeo Fukui confirmed the company will introduce the V-6-powered hybrid Accord this fall as a 2004 model. It joins the Civic and Insight hybrid models but will be Honda's first hybrid with a V-6 engine.

The Accord will also be the first Honda in the United States to use the company's variable cylinder management technology. It allows the vehicle to run on three of the engine's six cylinders, under certain conditions, to deliver greater fuel economy. Fukui said the technology would be introduced on another vehicle in this country this fall.

Fukui said the hybrid Accord will deliver slightly more horsepower than the gasoline powered 240 hp Accord but will have about the same fuel economy as the four-cylinder Civic.

"We believe conventional engines can be cleaner and more fuel efficient but also fun to drive," Fukui said.

Fukui also said that Honda will introduce its own fuel cell stack on its FCX fuel cell vehicle for the 2005 model year. Honda now uses a fuel cell stack produced by Ballard Power Systems Inc. in Vancouver, British Columbia. Fuel cells uses hydrogen to generate electricity with a chemical reaction.

Fukui said Honda's fuel cell stack will have increased performance and fuel efficiency, with the ability to start in below freezing temperatures.

"We do not imitate others," Fukui said. "We have no desire to follow."

Honda spokesman Andy Boyd said the Accord hybrid would be positioned as a premium model. He anticipates volume will be slightly higher than the 20,000 units that the company sells annually of the Civic hybrid.

Boyd said the company has leased five FCX fuel cell vehicles to the city of Los Angeles and plans to sell 30 of the vehicles over the next several years.
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Old 01-06-2004, 09:01 AM
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The insight has a manual transmission.
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Old 01-06-2004, 09:08 AM
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honda needs to offer this in ALL v6 models.
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Old 01-06-2004, 09:13 AM
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I think most new hybrid systems work like the Civic which shuts down the gas engine at stop lights (I don't know if this is true of Insight). I don't see how you could get clutch feedback from such a system when the gas engine is not running and at rest the electric engine is not turning either. What would be the point of a manual if you don't need a clutch for the cruicial 1st gear take off.?
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Old 01-06-2004, 09:39 AM
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Plus I just looked, the Civic hybrid is also available with a manual tranny.
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Old 01-06-2004, 10:28 AM
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wow...thats gonna hurt gas companies all over lol
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Old 01-06-2004, 11:23 AM
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ok one thing i cant seem 2 get clarified

the accord v6 hybrid will be 240hp as it is now? or will it make a few more hp due to the ima systm as in the civic hybrid and inmsight...i.e. maybe 10more hp but possibly 20-25lb more tq.
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Old 01-06-2004, 11:52 AM
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vcm will be on the next odyssey and the battery for civic hybrids have an 8 year warranty on them, above and beyond the 3year/36 thousand mile warranty - if something happens in 5 you can get it replaced no charge - i expect the same type of warranty for the accord battery
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Old 01-06-2004, 02:22 PM
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I'd like to find out how the manual tranny in a hybrid car, such as the Civic Hybrid MT, works. In all other hybrid implementations I've seen, the transmission is a CVT, which means there aren't any gears to shift between.
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Old 01-06-2004, 04:58 PM
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big deal ... I get that now out of my CL-S
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Old 01-06-2004, 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by Y2K3CL-S
big deal ... I get that now out of my CL-S
yes but 99% of that highway driving. Try that in a 50/50mix and i would wager you wouldn't get any where close to that.
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Old 01-06-2004, 05:46 PM
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Tight work..
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Old 01-06-2004, 07:27 PM
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Its interesting but I think they should have started on the Pilot and MDX.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:09 AM
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civic hybrids have an 8 year warranty on them
Unless there's a radical departure in battery technology this warranty is probably like the battery warranties for a regular car battery - it's pro-rated. Unless something is wrong with it, batteries die a very slow death. They just loose their ability to hold a charge. So that 40MPG for the first year will start to drop as the car starts using the gas engine more and more (because the electric one won't last as long). Honda probably designed the battery to last 8 years and if you get that far lucky for you - and again you're in for a $4K bill to replace it.

Let's see what's an 8 year old Civic worth? About $4-5K maybe. What are the chances that anyone would sink $4K into a $4K car? So the questions is, will it run without the electric portion of the IMA, cause if it won't, the junkyards will be filling up with 8 year old Civics. Like with many other items with built in battries (electric shaver) perhaps we have arrived to the era of disposable cars. We should find out soon since some of the oldest Insights are 5 years old.
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:20 AM
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I doubt these battery will cost $4k to replace 8 years from now. Much of that cost is most likely to their extremely low volume production at this time. Once they get into Accords and their production numbers grow (over 8 years) expect their prices to fall dramatically. It wouldn't surprice me if it only costs $600-800 to get a replacement battery 8 years from now.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:45 PM
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http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=7679

Between Honda and Toyota, I'm getting really excited about this technology.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by STL
I doubt these battery will cost $4k to replace 8 years from now. Much of that cost is most likely to their extremely low volume production at this time. Once they get into Accords and their production numbers grow (over 8 years) expect their prices to fall dramatically. It wouldn't surprice me if it only costs $600-800 to get a replacement battery 8 years from now.
I just ordered a new battery for a 3yr old laptop and it cost $300 so I think a battery for an Accord is going to be a little more than $600-800.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
I just ordered a new battery for a 3yr old laptop and it cost $300 so I think a battery for an Accord is going to be a little more than $600-800.
Laptop batteries are extremely overpriced and it sounds like yours is far worse. A replacement battery for my 6month old laptop is $100. I don't know if I agree with $600-800 but they will certainly be cheaper in 8 years...you won't be paying $4K for a batter on an 8 year old Civic Hybrid.
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:16 PM
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this is very good news...i wonder how the sales of it will be b/c the hybrid civic sales are doing poorly and way below expectations which seems weird since toyota can't even come close to meeting demand for its prius...which is almost the same thing.
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:36 PM
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I think the fact that the new Civic sucks in whatever configuartion you get it in has something to do with this. Civic sales are down across the board, so why would the Hybrid be any different.
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by domn
I think the fact that the new Civic sucks in whatever configuartion you get it in has something to do with this. Civic sales are down across the board, so why would the Hybrid be any different.
i guess i'm just surprised at the huge difference in sales btwn two hybrids that i think are pretty similar..but i do concur i would much rather take a prius hybrid over any civic including the SiR
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Old 01-08-2004, 07:23 PM
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Interesting. Should be another winner unless they price it too high.
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