GM may kill off Pontiac and/or Buick **All GM brands intact (page 3)**

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Old 03-23-2005, 04:53 PM
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GM may kill off Pontiac and/or Buick **All GM brands intact (page 3)**

I think it is a good move. I'd recommend to kill off Pontiac

GM Says It May Kill Off One of Its Brands

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp., which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.

GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.

But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."

Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.


Sales for both Pontiac and Buick have lagged in recent years. But GM is in the midst of a $3 billion investment in new vehicles for Buick, and Pontiac showrooms and they will have four new vehicles this year, including the Solstice roadster, Torrent SUV and the G6 mid-size coupe.


GM, which last week cut its earnings outlook for 2005 by as much as 80 percent, posted a 6 percent drop in U.S. sales for the first two months of the year. GM's U.S. market share fell to about 25 percent, far below its share of 27.5 percent for all of 2004.


Analysts said last week that GM's March sales could fall as much as 10 percent in March, while foreign automakers such as Toyota Motor Corp., Hyundai Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. would continue to gain U.S. market share.


Lutz said GM will post relatively flat U.S. sales for March, however, performing much better than expected.


"I think we're going to be just about even, our best guess at this point. Either a percent over or a percent under," he said. "It is a substantially better month than January or February, and it looks like the whole industry is up."


"A HUGE ALBATROSS"


No details about an expected restructuring at GM, the largest private U.S. provider of health care, have emerged since it roiled markets with its warning last week.


But the company, which has about $300 billion in outstanding debt, said on Wednesday it was in talks to sell a stake in its GMAC Commercial Mortgage unit after potential investors expressed interest in the unit.


And Lutz and Gary Cowger, GM's president for North America, spoke of possible demands for a cut in mounting health care benefits for the company's hourly union employees in remarks on the sidelines of the New York auto show on Wednesday.


An elimination of any one of GM's brands would likely mean plant closings and a shrinking of GM's hourly work force.


"An across-the-board competitive health care plan for salaried and hourly employees could literally save us billions," Cowger said. Health care costs, added Lutz, are "a huge albatross hanging over American industry today."


Lutz particularly acknowledged that the automaker, which will struggle to make a profit this year, faces challenges. But he said GM was "taking the necessary step to right this ship."


"Sure, we face short-term challenges, and this is not going to be a banner year," he said. "It's a difficult period of adjustment. But we will get through it."


He said some of GM's new cars, such as its Chevrolet Cobalt small car and the Pontiac G6 mid-size car, will post their best sales to date in March, and told the Morgan Stanley conference "I don't know where all the gloom and doom is coming from."


He quoted one car reviewer who said, referring to GM's troubles, that the quality of the Cobalt convinced him that "the Titanic may yet turn fast enough to miss the iceberg."
Old 03-23-2005, 04:57 PM
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Kill Pontiac. Buick has more of a following at this point. Roll the GTO into the Chevy line-up.
Old 03-23-2005, 05:17 PM
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Kill both of those LAME brands....Saturn too.
Old 03-23-2005, 05:59 PM
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Jeez, everyother thread is some bad news from GM, they need to get rid of Lutz pronto.
Old 03-23-2005, 06:01 PM
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Kill Pontiac....get rid of horrible plastic & cladding once and for all.

Turn Buick into a more upscale brand than currently.
Old 03-23-2005, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cusdaddy
Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.
They should do it now to make one strong brand to stay ahead of toyota with instead of spreading resources among all brands and having them all half ass.
Old 03-23-2005, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan
Kill both of those LAME brands....Saturn too.
I agree kill saturn too. BUT don't kill the new roadstar and sedan designed in part /w opel. They will sell!
Old 03-23-2005, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by heyitsme
They should do it now to make one strong brand to stay ahead of toyota with instead of spreading resources among all brands and having them all half ass.
teh problem they have getting rid of brands and making profits are the dam union contracts they have. get rid of teh union and they would do alot better profit wise
Old 03-23-2005, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
I agree kill saturn too. BUT don't kill the new roadstar and sedan designed in part /w opel. They will sell!
nah leave saturn. its going upscale, and getting rid of teh plastic
Old 03-23-2005, 06:42 PM
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Imagine if you will, Honda - every four or five years, re-designing, engineering and marketing 8 different Civics, 8 different Accords, 6 different Pilots, 5 different Oddys, 4 different CRV's, etc..etc...yada, yada.

You get the picture.

THE bottom line is that GM has too many competing brands to survive....
Old 03-23-2005, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan

THE bottom line is that GM has too many competing brands to survive....



i dont get why GM has to have 5 of the (almost) EXACT SAME CAR under different brands
Old 03-23-2005, 07:14 PM
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What I would do: Get rid of Pontiac and liven up the Chevy brand some more (really, there's not much difference between the two - I think you can put a Chevy badge on a G6 without damaging the Chevy brand at all). Chevy should also attract more interest by building out an SS version for most of its models. Forget the GTO, build the next Camaro on that rear-drive platform. Then devote some more resources to Buick to make a true Lexus competitor to bring in the younger buyers, and revive the Grand National name in a luxo-coupe. (And then in my pipe dream: bring the Holden Commodore SS to North America.)

The really sad part was that Oldsmobile was getting better at the time they killed it. I really hope neither Pontiac or Buick go, but if they do, I hope they at least give them a fighting chance and don't give them the really good products too late.
Old 03-23-2005, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan
Kill both of those LAME brands....Saturn too.
it would be dumb to kill of saturn, all they need to do is roll out some nice products (sky is hot).

i think they should kill pontiac off (nothing will save a brand whos image is as tarnished as theirs), they should take the stolstice and make it under buick as an upscale roadster, and the sky as the lower end. lokman jsut about got it right, the gto should be rolled out at a lower price under chevy with teh camaro name because, as he also said, they are basically the same company (how can you seriously call pontiac upscale when they sell the vibe?)
Old 03-23-2005, 08:06 PM
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I disgaree with all of you including Lutz and anyone else within GM that thinks that Pontiac and/or Buick must go so that GM sees better days.

Obviously GM does not get it!

IT'S NOT THAT YOU HAVE TOO MANY BRANDS GM! IT'S THAT YOU HAVE BULLSHIT PRODUCT AND TOO MUCH PRODUCT WITHIN THOSE BRANDS! BAD PRODUCT COMES FROM BAD PEOPLE (either mgt or workers or both).

Here is what needs to be done on top of the basic things (plus more) that I outlined here :

Killing the Pontiac name "for the sake of numbers" is the wrong thing to do. They will regret it a few years from now. Why?

Pontiac can be a proper brand if its product is fixed. Pontiac should be the USAmerican Afla Romeo! It will sell like hotcakes if it could be that. It's got the name, affordable sportiness and it is 30% to 40% there as far as product.

Excluding the obvious problem with Pontiac, which is low quality product (and that is not only related to quality but in general), the other main issue is IT HAS WAY TOO MANY OFFERINGS.

For example, look here. It's crazy! Even the freaking Aztec is still listed. Even the Grand Am and Prix. "But people still buy them" some loser clerk from GM would say. I dont give a rat's ass if people buy them. That's not the Pontiac that Pontic should be!

Here is what Pontiac needs:

A roadster - we got the great Solstice here

A compact sedan - we have the G6 but it needs a new engine lineup, a complete interior overhaul, new suspension and a super sports package

That compact sedan's coupe - we have the G6 coupe, see above for changes

A cabrio version of the G6 is a tossup. It may need to go, it may need to stay. It depends on the development costs and other factors.

A hatchback version of the compact sedan - ala Audi A3 (like the have the Vibe now but it's the wrong strategy because consumers make no connection between the Vibe and the G6 - that's a huge mistake marketing-strategy-wise).

A regular/full size sedan, ala STS (as far as size)

And a sport wagon. Ala Audi. Like this



All offerings will be either FWD or AWD with the appropriate suspension where even at the base model will be tight and all models will have available sport package options.

A critical item here is that YOU MUST GET SOMEONE WHO CAN PEN CARS LIKE THE ITALIANS CAN TO GET YOU THE NEW FACE OF PONTIAC. You need a passionate statement as far as exterior design is concerned.

Needless to say, quality must be at the minimum Toyota-like, if not Acura-like for these offerings to succeed.

All cars must share very common exterior design. You see them from a mile away and you know it's an Alfa. You might not know which Alfa but you know it's some Alfa. Same with BMW (up to their previous generation cars at least).

Final point:

Offerings that do not justify the brand's image must go. Not Pontiac. Great current example. Sunfire. I mean you have got to be kidding me if you think you can have this in your lineup and think you can continue NOT bleeding market share, no matter who you are, no matter who you work for.

--------------------

Buick. If they're gonna go after Lexus, it makes sense. But I dont believe that GM can pull it off. Even if ALL OF GM went to work to meet or beat Lexus, I doubt they can. It's that hard to be that good and it's that hopeless at GM as far as "people competency".

Instead they will do what they did to Olds. Go and cut one or two because supposedly "we cant handle them all, eww it's too much", ewww the baby is crying, get them some ice cream. Pathetic losers!
Old 03-23-2005, 08:14 PM
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GM reminds me of Cartman

"But mooooom, I have too much product I cant handle..."
Old 03-23-2005, 08:16 PM
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Kia and Huyndai would KILL for more product and GM is axing existing, established names. Even the gorilla Toyota is adding (Scion).

What's happening here is very simple and totally fair.

The ones good at their job get bigger and the ones bad at their jobs get smaller.

Total and utter fairness. For the markets.

I love open markets and capitalism. IN the end me and you are the winners.
Old 03-23-2005, 10:08 PM
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Oh God this is just like Oldsmobile a few years ago. So instead of revitalizing a pretty established brand (Oldsmobile was among the older, if not THE oldest, running brands in automotive history), they kill it and leave Saturn.

IMO Saturn needs to go, let the new roadster and sedan go under Chevy and work on improving Pontiac.
Old 03-24-2005, 04:47 AM
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Kill them both. Better for all of us.
Old 03-24-2005, 05:15 AM
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I gotta ask..what about the GTO?
Old 03-24-2005, 10:05 AM
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why can't Cadillac go after Lexus. I personally see too much overlap b/w what they want for Buick and Caddilac. Caddy is the luxury line....if anything they have to kill Buick IMO. Am i missing anything?
I agree with Gav that Pontiac has an established name for sportiness just fix they glaring deficits they have.
GM seems to address all issues except the ones that matter.
Old 03-24-2005, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
nah leave saturn. its going upscale, and getting rid of teh plastic
The problem is whats the 1st thing you think of when you think saturn?

plastic...

They need to rebrand that one, as I said keep the roaster and the new sedan designed by opel. But rebrand it.

name saturn needs to go.
Old 03-24-2005, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
I disgaree with all of you including Lutz and anyone else within GM that thinks that Pontiac and/or Buick must go so that GM sees better days.

Obviously GM does not get it!

IT'S NOT THAT YOU HAVE TOO MANY BRANDS GM! IT'S THAT YOU HAVE BULLSHIT PRODUCT AND TOO MUCH PRODUCT WITHIN THOSE BRANDS! BAD PRODUCT COMES FROM BAD PEOPLE (either mgt or workers or both).
I disagree. GM needs a facelift. Dump all of the crap they have now, concentrate on a few good vehicles. Change their names. Pontiac and Buick have to go, I don't believe anyone thinks quality when they think of either of them.

If I built a supercar called a "pinto" people would have a hard time accepting it.

I don't know how you disagree with this Gavriil. GM needs a new look/name. Look at what it cost hyundai to re-do their name? 10yr 100k mile warrantys to make people feel good about their cars again. Why? because they were junk to start with. Same with Kia...

Just clean the slate... and do it right this time.
Old 03-24-2005, 12:26 PM
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What will the rental car companies do when they kill Pontiac?

GM needs to trim more than 1 brand. All they need is TWO like Honda+Acura, Toyota+Lexus, and VW+Audi. Chevy and Caddy are all they need.

Chevy still has a good name and plenty of history, so they could sell all the trucks and economy/muscle cars. Caddy could be like Lexus and sell both sport and luxury vehicles with extremes on both ends of the spectrum. The lineup could be trimmed to about 20 total vehicles without losing much:

Chevy:
Aveo
Cobalt
G6-like sedan
RWD/AWD full-size sedan with wagon option
Sky
Camaro
Corvette
S10
Silverado
Trailblazer
Tahoe
Minivan
Fleet Van

Caddy:
Basically the current lineup+one FWD luxo-barge

What would anyone really miss? Buick's market would be absorbed by one vehicle in the caddy lineup. Pontiac's market was people that wanted to get a crappy sedan at half MSRP, which was bad for the brand anyway. The Cobalt is better than any coupe or sedan Saturn ever sold, and GMC was just rebadged Chevy trucks.
Old 03-24-2005, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
Kill Pontiac. Buick has more of a following at this point. Roll the GTO into the Chevy line-up.
Old 03-24-2005, 09:30 PM
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Kill them all. Rename everything Saab, and actually charge retail price. Problem solved.
Old 03-25-2005, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Loseit
why can't Cadillac go after Lexus. I personally see too much overlap b/w what they want for Buick and Caddilac. Caddy is the luxury line....if anything they have to kill Buick IMO. Am i missing anything?
I agree with Gav that Pontiac has an established name for sportiness just fix they glaring deficits they have.
GM seems to address all issues except the ones that matter.

Because Caddy is going after BMW and somewhat Mercedes and Audi.
Old 03-25-2005, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
I disagree. GM needs a facelift. Dump all of the crap they have now, concentrate on a few good vehicles. Change their names. Pontiac and Buick have to go, I don't believe anyone thinks quality when they think of either of them.

If I built a supercar called a "pinto" people would have a hard time accepting it.

I don't know how you disagree with this Gavriil. GM needs a new look/name. Look at what it cost hyundai to re-do their name? 10yr 100k mile warrantys to make people feel good about their cars again. Why? because they were junk to start with. Same with Kia...

Just clean the slate... and do it right this time.
Changing a name is not that easy either. It will cost a ton of money first. Second, when a new name comes in, it also has no credibility. IT has to prove itself. The new Pontiac also has to prove itself. So a new name is not panacea.
Old 03-25-2005, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TSX Hokie
What will the rental car companies do when they kill Pontiac?

GM needs to trim more than 1 brand. All they need is TWO like Honda+Acura, Toyota+Lexus, and VW+Audi. Chevy and Caddy are all they need.

I cant start to tell you how much I disagree with the above.

As I said before, the proof that the above is wrong is all around us. Look at Toyota. They JUST ADDED A BRAND (Scion). Look at other brands like DCX, they recently added SMART.

But overall, look at the whole industry. Everyone is trying to be bigger. Mercedes added the B class and BMW the 1 series. They are competing with VW for God's sake. The luxury brands that dont wonna add a new brand name are moving "downward" (as far as price) and the non-luxury brands who also dont choose to add a brand, are moving upward (VW with the Phaeton, etc.).

But no matter what, everyone is trying to improve the product in all areas.

EXPANDING IN VOLUME WITH QUALITY PRODUCT IS THE ANSWER TO SUCCESS.

Expanding in volume with crappy product is the answer to failure. That's GM right now.
Old 03-25-2005, 12:03 PM
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It makes a lot more sense to kill of Saab and Subaru (if wholy owned which is not the case), yes Subaru, than Pontiac.
Old 03-25-2005, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
It makes a lot more sense to kill of Saab and Subaru (if wholy owned which is not the case), yes Subaru, than Pontiac.
I totally disagree. Both brands are niche vehicles and with just some work can succeed. However, GM's other brands are too repetitive. i would much rather see Pontiac killed now, work on Buick for a few years and if it doesn't work out, pull the plug
Old 03-25-2005, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
I cant start to tell you how much I disagree with the above.

As I said before, the proof that the above is wrong is all around us. Look at Toyota. They JUST ADDED A BRAND (Scion). Look at other brands like DCX, they recently added SMART.
Think in Toyotas case, its a brand within a big brand- a sub brand. Scions are sold at the Toyota dealerships and from that point on people know that they are Toyotas.

Gm has more brands than there are niches. Think buick has a place because there really isn't anything negative about it and they have room to expand that market. They build quality cars that are decent looking for people who like a value comfy car. The GMC brand should go. Saturn should be the youth brand. Saturn and Pontiac would then go after the same markets with that performance type image so one has to go- pontiac. Chevy should stay and be the master brand.

Thats not a lot, but removing two more brands would allow more focus on new products instead of trying to rebadge platforms like the solstice and sky. Theres really no need for the solstice if you have a great looking car like the sky. Theres no need for for the pontiac g6 when you have the saturn aura concept, etc. Opel and saturn should be the same brand with the same products but with their respective names for each country.
Old 03-26-2005, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
It makes a lot more sense to kill of Saab and Subaru (if wholy owned which is not the case), yes Subaru, than Pontiac.

Now I usually agree with you but killing off Subaru? Let's not get carried away here. GM only owns what, about 25% of it? Subaru has very little to do with GM (in fact GM is only taking from Subaru with the 9-2x). Subaru is a great company, 10x better than anything GM makes. If anything Subaru needs to stay the hell away from GM.
Old 03-26-2005, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lokman
What I would do: Get rid of Pontiac and liven up the Chevy brand some more (really, there's not much difference between the two - I think you can put a Chevy badge on a G6 without damaging the Chevy brand at all). Chevy should also attract more interest by building out an SS version for most of its models. Forget the GTO, build the next Camaro on that rear-drive platform. Then devote some more resources to Buick to make a true Lexus competitor to bring in the younger buyers, and revive the Grand National name in a luxo-coupe. (And then in my pipe dream: bring the Holden Commodore SS to North America.)

The really sad part was that Oldsmobile was getting better at the time they killed it. I really hope neither Pontiac or Buick go, but if they do, I hope they at least give them a fighting chance and don't give them the really good products too late.


Forget the GTO, but bring Holden Commodore SS from Australia??? GTO ***is*** a Holden.
Old 03-26-2005, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by phile
Oh God this is just like Oldsmobile a few years ago. So instead of revitalizing a pretty established brand (Oldsmobile was among the older, if not THE oldest, running brands in automotive history), they kill it and leave Saturn.

IMO Saturn needs to go, let the new roadster and sedan go under Chevy and work on improving Pontiac.

killing doesn't seem to be an answer. They killed off Olds and thought that things would get better. Apparently they didn't.
Old 03-26-2005, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
It makes a lot more sense to kill of Saab and Subaru (if wholy owned which is not the case), yes Subaru, than Pontiac.

Swedes will then hate USA for killing their national pride.
Old 03-27-2005, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruski
Forget the GTO, but bring Holden Commodore SS from Australia??? GTO ***is*** a Holden.
no shit sherlock.
Old 03-27-2005, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RWalker2
Now I usually agree with you but killing off Subaru? Let's not get carried away here. GM only owns what, about 25% of it? Subaru has very little to do with GM (in fact GM is only taking from Subaru with the 9-2x).
That's why I wrote above:

(if wholy owned which is not the case),
(meant to write "which is not in this case")


Let me be clear. I do not want to see any GM sub go. Including Saab and Subaru. They all can make sense and money for GM. GM needs better product as I said a million times and for that to happen they need better people. Both on the exec level, the various mgt levels and the blue colar level. People make the difference within any industry within any company.
Old 03-27-2005, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruski
Swedes will then hate USA for killing their national pride.
So?

Automotive corporate business is not about national pride first. Secondarily so maybe but not the priority. THe priority is how financially successful you are as a company. Everything else comes second.
Old 03-27-2005, 07:07 PM
  #39  
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Damn. I leave out of town for a few days and come back to this? Lord have mercy on GM if it kills another brand. Gav beat me to the punch; I won't write another page on what GM needs to correct because it's already been done very clearly. Basically, killing off more brands may very well be shooting yourself in the foot. It's about clear strategy, and the right product to support it. Saturn was a laughing stock; all of the sudden I hear people talking about, "Wow, I'd buy an Aura and a Sky." Saturn can be a great premium import contender. Buick can easily be seen on par with Lexus, and should be. But GM needs to lay their nuts on the table like they did with Caddy. That means a clear design direction (read: "Art and Science"), and real product to back it up. Not some lame Terraza, or to many SUVs, or pushrods in this class vehicle. Even if Pontiac shares platforms such as Epsilon, they're suspension and engine specs can make them truly the Alfa of the U.S. And those Italians penning the new "face" would only help. I'm truly weary of all of this GM BS.
Old 03-27-2005, 09:24 PM
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Why not kill both Pontiac and Buick? Saturn too anyone?


Quick Reply: GM may kill off Pontiac and/or Buick **All GM brands intact (page 3)**



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