For German cars lovers
12-02-2003, 07:46 AM
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For German cars lovers
Mercedes and BMW for all their glamour, aren't the preferred choice of
German car-owners, according to two surprising new surveys released this
week.
When it comes to overall ratings, nothing tops the charts like a Mercedes
Benz. But for everyday use, German car-owners prefer Japanese cars to the
legendary names of their native country.
The stunning news is the result of two surveys conducted separately by car
magazine AutoBILD and German car-insurer ADAC. The so-called Automarxx
survey, conducted by ADAC with the Center for Automotive Research at
Gelsenkirchen Technical College, asked more than 38,000 car owners to rank
international car companies in terms of consumer satisfaction.
The German automobile industry's first entry on the list is Porsche at
number eight. Toyota and Honda lead a pack of Asian rivals in the first
seven spots.
The study, which will first be released to the public next week, is sure to
disappoint the likes of Mercedes and Audi, who apparently enjoy a better
reputation abroad than at home.
Not even in the top five
Covering a range of areas from company strength and market position to
design and environmental friendliness, the latest Automarxx survey is the
first to feature a Consumer Satisfaction section.
The consumer questionnaires looked at both the products and service of 33
manufacturers, and included ratings of electronics, motor power and comfort
as well as of cost and standards of garage work.
While German brands Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche still occupy
the top five of the Overall Rating section, they barely figure in the
Consumer Satisfaction top ten, beaten by Toyota at number one, followed by
other Asian competitors such as Subaru, Honda and Mazda.
Quality over image
The competition is not surprised by the results. Speaking from the Essen
Motor Show, which opened on Thursday, Mazda's Peter Tuhl told Deutsche Welle
that Mazda's position in the top five reflected the Japanese company's
enduringly high technical standards.
He said a Mazda owner experiences "lasting satisfaction." A German car
owner, on the other hand, is more like a "disappointed lover who realizes
the first promises aren't going to come true".
The survey results seem to back up the mark. Mercedes has no problem with
its image, but rather with its follow-through, according to the results.
Dr. Ferdinand Dudenhöffer, who led the survey, said the emphasis German
companies like Mercedes place on innovation comes at the expense of
production quality.
"Every technical innovation increases the risk of a break-down," he says."In
this respect, Toyota is more conservative, which may not be good for its
image, but is very beneficial in terms of reliability."
"Made in Germany" loses clout
The AutoBILD survey confirms the trend. The first German entry on the list
is BMW at number five, again trumped by Asian rivals.
VW CEO Dr. Bernd Pischetsrieder admitted to AutoBILD that "in technical
terms, Toyota is better then us. But not just us."
The results of the Automarxx survey are a blow to Stuttgart-based Mercedes
in particular, which comes in at an astonishingly low number 32. Other
German manufacturers fared equally badly, with Volkswagen at number 31 and
Opel only four places higher.
German car-owners, according to two surprising new surveys released this
week.
When it comes to overall ratings, nothing tops the charts like a Mercedes
Benz. But for everyday use, German car-owners prefer Japanese cars to the
legendary names of their native country.
The stunning news is the result of two surveys conducted separately by car
magazine AutoBILD and German car-insurer ADAC. The so-called Automarxx
survey, conducted by ADAC with the Center for Automotive Research at
Gelsenkirchen Technical College, asked more than 38,000 car owners to rank
international car companies in terms of consumer satisfaction.
The German automobile industry's first entry on the list is Porsche at
number eight. Toyota and Honda lead a pack of Asian rivals in the first
seven spots.
The study, which will first be released to the public next week, is sure to
disappoint the likes of Mercedes and Audi, who apparently enjoy a better
reputation abroad than at home.
Not even in the top five
Covering a range of areas from company strength and market position to
design and environmental friendliness, the latest Automarxx survey is the
first to feature a Consumer Satisfaction section.
The consumer questionnaires looked at both the products and service of 33
manufacturers, and included ratings of electronics, motor power and comfort
as well as of cost and standards of garage work.
While German brands Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche still occupy
the top five of the Overall Rating section, they barely figure in the
Consumer Satisfaction top ten, beaten by Toyota at number one, followed by
other Asian competitors such as Subaru, Honda and Mazda.
Quality over image
The competition is not surprised by the results. Speaking from the Essen
Motor Show, which opened on Thursday, Mazda's Peter Tuhl told Deutsche Welle
that Mazda's position in the top five reflected the Japanese company's
enduringly high technical standards.
He said a Mazda owner experiences "lasting satisfaction." A German car
owner, on the other hand, is more like a "disappointed lover who realizes
the first promises aren't going to come true".
The survey results seem to back up the mark. Mercedes has no problem with
its image, but rather with its follow-through, according to the results.
Dr. Ferdinand Dudenhöffer, who led the survey, said the emphasis German
companies like Mercedes place on innovation comes at the expense of
production quality.
"Every technical innovation increases the risk of a break-down," he says."In
this respect, Toyota is more conservative, which may not be good for its
image, but is very beneficial in terms of reliability."
"Made in Germany" loses clout
The AutoBILD survey confirms the trend. The first German entry on the list
is BMW at number five, again trumped by Asian rivals.
VW CEO Dr. Bernd Pischetsrieder admitted to AutoBILD that "in technical
terms, Toyota is better then us. But not just us."
The results of the Automarxx survey are a blow to Stuttgart-based Mercedes
in particular, which comes in at an astonishingly low number 32. Other
German manufacturers fared equally badly, with Volkswagen at number 31 and
Opel only four places higher.
12-02-2003, 08:04 AM
#2
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Um, can I introject one question?
How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?
Personally, I'd rather drive a 160hp Mazda 3 over a 95 hp Jetta.
Especially considering i'd save $8,000 doing so (CDN).
Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?
Personally, I think the demise of German brands lately has been the fact that ALL their cars are overvalued. They are simply taking advantage of the low carrying costs of the current market economy. People are begging to realize this, and as such, are purchasing the true 'value leaders' in the segment.
J.
How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?
Personally, I'd rather drive a 160hp Mazda 3 over a 95 hp Jetta.
Especially considering i'd save $8,000 doing so (CDN).
Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?
Personally, I think the demise of German brands lately has been the fact that ALL their cars are overvalued. They are simply taking advantage of the low carrying costs of the current market economy. People are begging to realize this, and as such, are purchasing the true 'value leaders' in the segment.
J.
12-02-2003, 08:11 AM
#3
Photography Nerd
That's all fine and good but what about sales? Just take a drive on any of the autobahnen and count how many German cars you see vs. Japanese cars. Sure they may not see German cars as being the pinacle of reliability but they still buy plenty of them.
12-02-2003, 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by bowersan
.....How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?.....Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?.....
.....How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?.....Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?.....
But I'm not sure we know the relative costs of Japanese and German cars in Germany. What we're familiar with is the relative costs in the U.S. and Canada. But isn't it likely that the gap is narrowed, maybe signficantly narrowed, in Germany because they can sell their own cars "cheaper" there, for the obvious reasons (less transportation, no tariffs/customs/whatever)?
So -- does anyone know for sure how much less German cars cost in Germany than here, and how much the differential winds up being between German and Japanese cars? My guess is the differential is a lot less than what we're used to.
12-02-2003, 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
That's all fine and good but what about sales? Just take a drive on any of the autobahnen and count how many German cars you see vs. Japanese cars. Sure they may not see German cars as being the pinacle of reliability but they still buy plenty of them.
That's all fine and good but what about sales? Just take a drive on any of the autobahnen and count how many German cars you see vs. Japanese cars. Sure they may not see German cars as being the pinacle of reliability but they still buy plenty of them.
12-02-2003, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by larchmont
But I'm not sure we know the relative costs of Japanese and German cars in Germany. What we're familiar with is the relative costs in the U.S. and Canada. But isn't it likely that the gap is narrowed, maybe signficantly narrowed, in Germany because they can sell their own cars "cheaper" there, for the obvious reasons (less transportation, no tariffs/customs/whatever)?
So -- does anyone know for sure how much less German cars cost in Germany than here, and how much the differential winds up being between German and Japanese cars? My guess is the differential is a lot less than what we're used to.
But I'm not sure we know the relative costs of Japanese and German cars in Germany. What we're familiar with is the relative costs in the U.S. and Canada. But isn't it likely that the gap is narrowed, maybe signficantly narrowed, in Germany because they can sell their own cars "cheaper" there, for the obvious reasons (less transportation, no tariffs/customs/whatever)?
So -- does anyone know for sure how much less German cars cost in Germany than here, and how much the differential winds up being between German and Japanese cars? My guess is the differential is a lot less than what we're used to.
12-02-2003, 02:08 PM
#7
Race Director
Larch, if a local German could get his/her BMW without paying their VAT (16%) and a couple of years ago when the $ was strong (and Euro weak) then yes the car may have been slightly cheaper than the US. Otherwise the same car in Germany (actually anywhere in the world outside of the US) is ALWAYS more expensive than in the US (as a matter of fact pretty soon BMW will be making almost nothing on some of their US models because of the exchange rate - which they'll make up with the cars made outside Germany)
The differential between German and Japanese cars of course depends on the model. And like in the US, the Japanese have assembly plants in Europe for some European models to keep the costs low.
Anytime a car comes in from outside the EU it is going to be more expensive (like a Corvette going for $80K). As an example the Honda Accord Executive (closest thing to the TSX) is around 28,000 Euros (coming off the same assembly line as the TSX in Japan) in Germany. Two years ago that would have been less than $25,000US, today it's more than $33,000US. A 325i is around 34,000 Euros. In Germany Hondas have a very good reputation and is at the top of most surveys but I'd venture to guess that the Euro Accord is outsold by the 325 at least 5 to 1.
The survey only mentions the German cars vs. Asian models. Well, in Europe you got a whole bunch of makers not even available in the US which the Germans must compete against (like Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Alfa, Fiat). If you were to look on the Autobahn yes the German makes will outnumber just about anything else but you are more likely to see more other European models than Asian ones.
BTW, BMW is the only maker with which European delivery nets any savings (even though it's available with other makes too). The savings cames in the fact that if driven in Europe the car is exempt from a 7% import tax netting a typical 5 series owner with about $4k.
The differential between German and Japanese cars of course depends on the model. And like in the US, the Japanese have assembly plants in Europe for some European models to keep the costs low.
Anytime a car comes in from outside the EU it is going to be more expensive (like a Corvette going for $80K). As an example the Honda Accord Executive (closest thing to the TSX) is around 28,000 Euros (coming off the same assembly line as the TSX in Japan) in Germany. Two years ago that would have been less than $25,000US, today it's more than $33,000US. A 325i is around 34,000 Euros. In Germany Hondas have a very good reputation and is at the top of most surveys but I'd venture to guess that the Euro Accord is outsold by the 325 at least 5 to 1.
The survey only mentions the German cars vs. Asian models. Well, in Europe you got a whole bunch of makers not even available in the US which the Germans must compete against (like Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Alfa, Fiat). If you were to look on the Autobahn yes the German makes will outnumber just about anything else but you are more likely to see more other European models than Asian ones.
BTW, BMW is the only maker with which European delivery nets any savings (even though it's available with other makes too). The savings cames in the fact that if driven in Europe the car is exempt from a 7% import tax netting a typical 5 series owner with about $4k.
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12-02-2003, 09:30 PM
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Interesting stuff, biker, but much of it doesn't address what's the key thing here about pricing. I kept referring to the relative costs in Germany of German and Japanese cars, and the differential between those costs in Germany. Yes, in passing I referred to the difference between German car prices in Germany and North America, but only to relate the discussion to our usual knowledge, which is the prices here in N.A. The only thing that matters for the basic question is the differential in Germany. So, as far as I can tell, the VAT thing is irrelevant, because (I think) it applies to all cars sold/bought there.
Part of what you seem to be saying is that Japanese imports to Germany have extra costs built in that domestic (i.e. German) cars don't have. I assumed that. I didn't mention it because that's the case with Japanese cars here too, so the main factor that would cause a difference between here and there in the relative pricing of German and Japanese cars is...... how much cheaper German cars are there.
Anyway, all that matters in this part of the question is, what's the price differential in Germany between German and Japanese cars. I'm guessing it's a lot less than here.
Part of what you seem to be saying is that Japanese imports to Germany have extra costs built in that domestic (i.e. German) cars don't have. I assumed that. I didn't mention it because that's the case with Japanese cars here too, so the main factor that would cause a difference between here and there in the relative pricing of German and Japanese cars is...... how much cheaper German cars are there.
Anyway, all that matters in this part of the question is, what's the price differential in Germany between German and Japanese cars. I'm guessing it's a lot less than here.
12-02-2003, 10:43 PM
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Photography Nerd
Originally posted by Iron Chef
The fact that you see Mercedes delivery trucks over there probably has some impact on its image.
The fact that you see Mercedes delivery trucks over there probably has some impact on its image.
12-03-2003, 05:08 AM
#11
Race Director
When you step out to the curb at virtually any airport in Germany you'll see some sort of E series taxi. Image doesn't matter that much there. Have you ever seen a Smart car?
12-04-2003, 05:06 PM
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All those polls mean diddly squat in terms of judging Europeans...
Euros might say that they love Japanese quality, but when it comes to putting their money down, they would choose otherwise, even if they have to pay alittle more. Now, with the younger generations, that "euro-ism" (kinda like nationalism) is kinda dying down, hence the recent increase in Japanese brand sales on the continent. But euros take great pride in what their continent has to offer.
Polls... what do they ever tell you?
A perfect example of bad polling was when McDonalds first entered into Paris. All the marketing people indicated that over 70% of Parisians would not go to McD for a meal. Today, McD is the second largest fast-food chain in Paris...
Then again, these are the French we are talking bout...
Junkster, who visited Aix en Provence a few years back.
Euros might say that they love Japanese quality, but when it comes to putting their money down, they would choose otherwise, even if they have to pay alittle more. Now, with the younger generations, that "euro-ism" (kinda like nationalism) is kinda dying down, hence the recent increase in Japanese brand sales on the continent. But euros take great pride in what their continent has to offer.
Polls... what do they ever tell you?
A perfect example of bad polling was when McDonalds first entered into Paris. All the marketing people indicated that over 70% of Parisians would not go to McD for a meal. Today, McD is the second largest fast-food chain in Paris...
Then again, these are the French we are talking bout...
Junkster, who visited Aix en Provence a few years back.
12-04-2003, 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Junkster
Today, McD is the second largest fast-food chain in Paris...
Then again, these are the French we are talking bout...
Today, McD is the second largest fast-food chain in Paris...
Then again, these are the French we are talking bout...
12-04-2003, 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by S2KALI
What's the largest?
What's the largest?
Larchmont, who's glad to see S2K dropping by again!
12-23-2003, 08:34 AM
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here is a comparision.
A Euro Accord Type S 2.4 Against the Merc C-Class 240
The Merc is £6000 ($4000) more and has 20 bhp less.
and the Merc doesn't even bring a CD Player !
For the money I spent on my Accord I would have bought a C180.
http://intl.autos.yahoo.com/compare/...3&intl=uk&prt=
Ernie
A Euro Accord Type S 2.4 Against the Merc C-Class 240
The Merc is £6000 ($4000) more and has 20 bhp less.
and the Merc doesn't even bring a CD Player !
For the money I spent on my Accord I would have bought a C180.
http://intl.autos.yahoo.com/compare/...3&intl=uk&prt=
Ernie
12-23-2003, 07:48 PM
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I don't think too many buyers would look at the Merc and the Accord in the same league. Maybe the Accord is a better car, but perception is different. By the way, I don't think HP should be in the equation, otherwise we go back to the Subaru WRX argument.
01-01-2004, 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by bowersan
Um, can I introject one question?
How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?
Personally, I'd rather drive a 160hp Mazda 3 over a 95 hp Jetta.
Especially considering i'd save $8,000 doing so (CDN).
Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?
Personally, I think the demise of German brands lately has been the fact that ALL their cars are overvalued. They are simply taking advantage of the low carrying costs of the current market economy. People are begging to realize this, and as such, are purchasing the true 'value leaders' in the segment.
J.
Um, can I introject one question?
How much do Japanese cars cost vs. german cars?
Personally, I'd rather drive a 160hp Mazda 3 over a 95 hp Jetta.
Especially considering i'd save $8,000 doing so (CDN).
Perhaps the largest European economy is, as could be expected, not wasting their own money?
Personally, I think the demise of German brands lately has been the fact that ALL their cars are overvalued. They are simply taking advantage of the low carrying costs of the current market economy. People are begging to realize this, and as such, are purchasing the true 'value leaders' in the segment.
J.
But, I agree that "Made in Germany" seems to add about 25% to the consumer cost - I've heard many people on automotive forums say never own a BMW out of warranty - at least they paid too much for it though
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