horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Even then the tranny gets it wrong sometimes. As for being too slow, geez, that's kind of a silly comment unless you're talking about track times or something.

SamDoe1

It is slower, by quite a lot. Track times are one thing but acceleration is a different animal between the manual and auto. Sorry to burst your bubble but there's data to prove that. I'm not sure which one you were driving but mine nails it every time without issue. I have only run into a few occasions where it got confused in full auto but in manual mode it's dead on and immediate every time.

I've had several manual cars in my life (still have one) and, while I enjoy them in some cars, they just don't feel right in others. Almost feel like an afterthought in the design process. Manuals are dying, that's a given right now. Automatics have become so good these days that they are now both more efficient and faster in terms of performance than the manual counterpart. This is why you can't really buy a manual supercar anymore. Also why most performance cars are going automatic. The only reason to buy one now is because you like to change your own gears, that's about it. Not saying that's a bad thing but it's all that's left.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

We'll have to agree to disagree, quite strongly in fact.

SamDoe1

Ok.

00TL-P3.2

I'm with Sam on the DSG in the Golf (GTI/R) The few GTI i drove, it performed phenomenally, and would've been my choice over the 6MT.

Just some cars where one is better than the other, but it's all down to user preference in the end.

LNJ

F23A4

00TL-P3.2

I think it has a fair chance. I see a lot of Genesis/G80 on the roads here in Houston, with the occasional G90/Equus.

kurtatx

Hard to tell, but Genesis is in the unenviable position of being a luxury manufacturer without any crossovers in North America.

LNJ

00TL-P3.2

Or worse, not having any dealers.
Only 12 out of 24 new Genesis on Autotrader within 75 miles of Houston have live/real photos. 23 G80s, 1 G90.

oonowindoo

That depends on your and Hyundai's definition of sales success...

kurtatx

I think Genesis will be fine. I would imagine a Genesis SUV would be awesome given how great their sedans are.

Like, based on their Sedans, they should slide right below the Germans and Lexus in terms of quality/luxury and just above Acura. I have no reason to believe Genesis can't pull off an amazing SUV.

Costco

Totally.

Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.

I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.

It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.

kurtatx

DSGs are pretty nice, but the gear shifting under acceleration is a bit jarring. The ZF8 in my car is a bit smoother.

Costco

ZF8 is one of the few automatics I would be more than happy to live with. Plenty fast enough shifting for me, and such a versatile transmission.

SamDoe1

It's entirely a matter of opinion now. If you want a manual it's because you want one, not because it's better, faster, more reliable, or any of the other reasons we used to have. I have a DSG Golf R and I think it feels great. Just a matter of opinion.

There's a lot more in Europe that I want than a manual version of most cars...

They definitely kick you in the ass when accelerating hard but the shift time is basically nothing. Under normal driving, the shifting is pretty smooth.

ZF8 is one of the best transmissions ever made. It's too bad the ZF9 is one of the worst.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I've lived and commuted in the metropolitan areas of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, and Stuttgart over the last 40 some years; always had three pedals under my dash, encountered horrific traffic on an almost daily basis, and never once wished for an autotragic transmission.

Costco

Yeah, how did they screw that one up so badly? If it were isolated to merely one application/within a certain make, I would blame it on the automaker. But it goes beyond just one manufacturer and something like programming.

It's a conundrum for me. I'm all for better gearboxes and innovation. I like the idea of autonomous vehicles even - for those who cannot drive themselves at all, for example.

But at the same time, the further we stray from full control, the more likely the manual transmission is likely to disappear.

The S3 for example is a great little car, available in manual in Europe but only in DSG in the states.

kurtatx

It's really hard to believe they're the same company. The V6 TLX is such a clunky, unnatural transmission (like a bizarro DSG) and the ZF is butter and the upshift belch is just awesome.

Of course, ZF made the 9 speed for economy cars while the ZF8 is for luxury models. It's Acura's own dumb fault they used it on their biggest seller.

00TL-P3.2

Agreed, I Was thinking about similar the other day, ranking the mid-tier luxury mfgs. I think Genesis could easily slot in near the top, apart form not having any SUV competitors (yet).
Once the GV80 hits, I'm sure it'll be a boost for the brand.

SamDoe1

I haven't lived in nearly as many areas (nor have I even been alive for 40 years) but I commuted through traffic in both my manual E46 and my S2000. I don't at all mind driving the manual at all in any conditions but the manual in the Golf just wasn't as good as the manual in both of those. That's why I bought it. It wasn't for the convenience at all, just that the DSG in that particular application was just better. IMO of course.

kurtatx

As long as it looks better than the concept I'm sure you're right.

RPhilMan1

And the sad reason why I won't even consider it. Ugh. So much potential.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Two things I need to revisit:

1. An assertion was made which implied, from the perspective of reliability, that automatic transmissions were better than manual transmissions. Maybe it's just me, but I do not believe I've ever seen any data to suggest automatic transmissions were anything but less reliable over the long haul than a manual transmission.
2. A separate comment was made which said something along the lines, a car designed to be equipped with an automatic transmission will be the superior of the same car with a manual transmission added into it as an afterthought. Hmmm, using two examples near and dear to our hearts, please consider the 3G TL and the TLX with the V6 engine; by all accounts, the 6MT versions of the 3G TL were superior to their autotragic brethren in virtually every measurable metric. As for the TLX, I rather doubt there would be terribly many folks lining up to tout the superiority of a ZF9 TLX versus the same car with an old school 6MT.

oonowindoo

^ E60 M5 SMG vs E60 M5 6mt

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Thank you, another example of where the 6MT was not part of the initial design, and then added at a later date to yield a superior car.

Costco

Just having a manual transmission doesn't make a car better than its automatic variant.

Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.

This is like arguing over boobs vs. butts asses all the way

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Manual transmission, Butts, and Mary Ann.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

It's not a Honda transmission, but it's pretty good with some simple mods. However, VW clutches are paper mâché, so that alone costs more to correct then opting for the DSG.

And that's all it really comes down to. I know I'll never take my car to the track where every tenth will count, and my penis isn't small enough to give two shits about 0-60 times, so I went with the inferior (by todays standards) transmission. But there are many people that do have a valid use case for a DSG/automatic, and that's perfectly OK too.

This. The DSG in my old GTI was jerky in traffic, and I grew to despise it. It got to the point where I would drive it in "manual" mode just to smooth out shifts. My brothers B8 S4 is no different.

If only the RS3 was available with a manual

I kinda agree with this, but it completely depends on the car. If we look at smaller economy cars - for example the Golf S with it's 1.4l turbo 4 - I think they actually benefit more from a DSG/DCT (and even some of the newer slushboxes) then a manual. Sure, they're more fun, but a DSG/DCT will keep the engine in boost during gearshifts, aiding acceleration.The manual variants of these cars tend to have longer gearing along with longer throws, which just exacerbate the size (or lack thereof) of the engine.

But CVTs can burn in hell.

00TL-P3.2

on the CVTs. It's been a while, but I've never driven one that wasn't awful (mostly Nissans).

SamDoe1

To be fair, you're living a bit in the past on this one. the 3G TL and the 7G Accord both used a flawed design transmission, similar to how the TLX (and others) use the flawed ZF9. On the flip side, cars that have a ZF8 transmission are lauded to be better to drive (faster and more efficient) than their manual counterparts without the issue of catastrophic failure. Technology has advanced incredibly far in the 10 years since the 3G TL and 7G Accord went out of production and modern automatics are FAR better than they used to be. Comparing a decade old Honda transmission to the best modern German box is a bit of a stretch.

You know that the SMG in the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 are manual transmissions with a computer actuated clutch right? That's what SMG stands for Sequential MANUAL Gearbox.

The SMG was, and is, a POS just by design and the lack of proper computing power and tuning to make it good. A modern DSG is also basically a computer actuated manual but the tuning of today is far better than before.

Agreed. Nissans are horrible. Honda and Subaru are better but neither is great or even good. Both are merely acceptable for the use case.

kurtatx

1. It's hard to argue automatic transmissions are more or less reliable than manual transmissions. On one hand, autos have added complexity, on the other, manuals are more subject to driver behavior.
2. We need to be more clear about superiority. For one thing, Autos are almost always faster now. For another, they manage gear changes based on a set of rules to protect your car from serious issues.
3. Let's be clear: The TLX is not bad because it has an automatic transmission. The TLX v6 drive experience is bad because it has that bad automatic transmission.

Also, if you want to be taken seriously, stop calling it an "autotragic".

Costco

I think it's kinda funny.














Funny that you guys have an autotragic transmission

kurtatx

lol, and I'm not super sensitive of course, but it's hard to take anyone all that seriously when they don't use the real words

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Regarding dismissing my arguments around the TL and the TLX; you missed the point, you claimed a car designed to have an automatic would be better than that same vehicle if a manual transmission had been put in it. I gave you two very good examples where that is patently not true.

Now, if you want to dismiss the ZF9, that just brings us to a different point, developing a modern auto with high efficiency, long term reliability, AND a good driving experience is fraught with significant expense and numerous pitfalls.

The SMG is only a "manual" in name, it is a semi automatic transmission with a manual mode. Yes, it has a manual(esque) mechanical structure, but it is no manual transmission. Ever driven one? They suck.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Meh, automatic, slushbox, automagic, autotragic; call them what you will; I try to inject a bit of levity into most of what I write; sorry if it didn't resonate with you.

00TL-P3.2

Never driven one, but I think the EVO X is better example of the auto being the better trans, if we're going to keep diving down this rabbit hole.
Almost everything I've ever read, says that the MT in the EVO X was such an afterthought, because of how bad it is.

Conversely, I can't imagine buying a WRX/STI with the CVT

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Strangely, everyone that I know that has driven or owned a dual clutch Evo X has said that is absolutely horrendous. Small sample size, but still...it mostly comes down to how it handled daily driving duties - which is usually the driving force behind people option for the dual clutch in the first place.

SamDoe1

I guess I should have said that modern cars designed as an auto are better than the manual shoehorned in.

Other than what pushes in the clutch pedal, the SMG is a manual in every other way. There are a lot of people that have swapped an E46 M3 from SMG to manual without changing the actual the transmission. Yes, I've driven one. Yes, they suck. It's not because it's an auto, it's because the software and tuning is terrible. FWIW, manuals are absolutely awful, and perform just like a SMG, if you can't drive one well because YOU end up being the software. The SMG just feels like a manual driven by a 16 year old first learning to drive a stick...and never improves.

The ZF9 is just a bad design with worse software. There are several 10spd gear boxes that get great reviews, the number of gears really isn't that big of a deal.