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Old 12-06-2005, 06:45 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by rise
time to sell short!
It's been on junk bond status for quite a while now.





GM has 4 global divisions and they tend to offset each other's profits and losses. GMNA has lost a lot of money, but GME (Europe) and GMAP (Asia Pacific) are doing pretty well. GMLAAM's figures are negligible on a global scale. Don't forget other subsidiaries like the GMAC which brings in several hundreds of millions of dollars every year in profit.

Could GM be really filing for bankcruptcy? It's possible. But will they go out of business? In my opinion, never. Not in the sense that a company would completely shut down its operations, close its doors and leave for good.

Why? Because the government will bail them out. GM's structure extends far beyond its manufacturing divisions; all of its supplier companies and everyone else they have business deals with, it's an unbelieveably extensive network. Directly, GM employs about 325,000 people worldwide. And that's not even counting the suppliers, partnerships, etc. If GM goes down completely, then everyone goes down; and we could possibly be looking at another Great Depression. The government just will not let that happen, and GM won't let themselves get to that. Which is why they are already cutting jobs and downsizing. Even if they filed bankcruptcy, it's such a large organization that they could still have the resources to restructure and continue its operations, albeit on a smaller scale.

It's just like the airline companies. The government bails them out. The government bailed out Chrysler in the past, and they will bail out GM. Otherwise it'll have a massive impact on our economy. And this is IF they decided to file. Rick Wagoner recently announced that although GM is having a very hard time, they did not have any intentions of filing for bankcruptcy. GM's approach is to deal with one problem at a time effectively and efficiently and get through it all.

.02
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Old 12-06-2005, 06:48 PM
  #162  
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GM going bankrupt?!?! Never saw this coming. They have such great car designs and quality...how could this happen?
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Old 12-06-2005, 06:51 PM
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Not going to happen anytime soon.
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Old 12-06-2005, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cusdaddy
Not going to happen anytime soon.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:00 PM
  #165  
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About time!

Could not happen to a nicer bunch of people!
Had the misfortune of having a GM product in the late 70's. The car being a pos was not the worst problem, but the whole way they handled it was. Arrogant does not come close to the attitude from the dealer on up through zone managers and the corporate headquarters. Took 3 years, but I came out ahead in the end. Too bad the little people are the ones to suffer. F--K GM! I feel strangely better now.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:03 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by Dan
Could not happen to a nicer bunch of people!
Had the misfortune of having a GM product in the late 70's. The car being a pos was not the worst problem, but the whole way they handled it was. Arrogant does not come close to the attitude from the dealer on up through zone managers and the corporate headquarters. Took 3 years, but I came out ahead in the end. Too bad the little people are the ones to suffer. F--K GM! I feel strangely better now.
Right, because non-GM vehicles never have problems, and their dealerships are always nice and helpful?

Sorry to hear about your problem, but come on, you can't honestly be that thick-headed. This is beyond "my car had a problem so fuck GM"... it's an issue of economics that could affect everyone on a national and a global scale.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:04 PM
  #167  
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This will allow them to rework their deal with the unions.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:13 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by I'm Batman
This will allow them to rework their deal with the unions.
They already did rework their deal with the UAW.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:16 PM
  #169  
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anyone know how much that ceo is making? i heard somewhere that ceo makes 457 times the amount of a reg worker. So if they want to cut cost, why not just don't pay the guy that thinks building more suv will save gm?
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobbydoedoe
anyone know how much that ceo is making? i heard somewhere that ceo makes 457 times the amount of a reg worker. So if they want to cut cost, why not just don't pay the guy that thinks building more suv will save gm?
Well, the previous Chairman Jack Smith was making over a million, and Rick Wagoner was making 2 million. But Wagoner is now Chairman and CEO, so he's probably getting paid a lot.

But compared to a regular worker, he also does considerably more work. And it's the Board that decides his salary, not him.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:27 PM
  #171  
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Regardless, I think we can all say with a great amount of certainty that the big 3 will be a shadow of themselves 10 years from now...

And before people bring out the , think about it... For companies of their size to go through the changes that analysts think are necessary to just survive is quite an undertaking. The domestic car business is a bitch these days.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:28 PM
  #172  
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No GM employee is getting a bonus this year. No GMNA employee got a raise this year.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:33 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by Tireguy
They refuse to listen to what it is that people want, or possibly even scarier are incapable of building it.
The Corvette and Cadillac V series seem to give the people what they want...

I guess other then those 2 exceptions, the bean counters are running the show instead of the car guys...
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:50 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by Dan
Could not happen to a nicer bunch of people!
Had the misfortune of having a GM product in the late 70's. The car being a pos was not the worst problem, but the whole way they handled it was. Arrogant does not come close to the attitude from the dealer on up through zone managers and the corporate headquarters. Took 3 years, but I came out ahead in the end. Too bad the little people are the ones to suffer. F--K GM! I feel strangely better now.
I completely agree, I've owned more GM cars then I would like to admit. My last was a 1999 Cadillac, and I will NEVER own another, at the same time I also had a 97 Malibu, 99 cavalier, 98 S-10 p/u and a 99 S-10 blazer - all of which were purchased new from the same dealership. While I had a few problems with a few previous GM cars nothing was a big deal and it was handled in a some what timely manor, while I was not happy I was not dissatisfied either.

When I have more then half of my GM fleet laid up all for waranty work and the dealership is giving me a hard time about it - they've gone too far. I never felt like a lower form in my life then how that dealership treated me, I talk to the owner of the dealership, and he asks me what I want. I tell him I want my vehicles in working order and to be treated human, he makes no promises.

The Cadillac was the nail in the coffin, it was just over $40k for the car new and was huge piece of shit. The interior lights would stay on from time to time, one head light would just come on every now and again, fog lights would blow every few weeks, the vehicle wouldn't take gas and when it would it proceeded to dump 1/2 of what you put in on the ground and for some reason clear coat would not stick to that car, it was painted 3 times in the 2 years I owned it. At the same time I had an ECU go in the S10 P/U which left me sit on the side of the road with a vehicle that had under 20k miles on it, not long after that the fan clutch went I was assured it was unrelated, but what was related was later that night when the fan came flying off cutting the upper radiator hose again leaving me stranded. Countless little problems with the malibu(weather stripping falling off, blower motor not working on anything under setting 3, control arm bushings ft and rear at least twice). The cavalier had 2 radio's go bad, and the driver's seat "broke" don't ask me how but two of the springs had pooked through the fabric. The S10 blazer had a broken leaf spring with a few thousand miles on and they could NEVER get the cruise control to work(keep in mind it was factory installed and a loaded blazer). All the while the dealership was blaming me for everything.

When I am told that its my fault the clear coat is coming off in 2 foot long strips because I drove the car in the rain - it pisses me off. When I am told to "deal with it" when there tech. fucks up the fan clutch install leaving me vehicleless AGAIN. I call the GM customer care hotline and they could care less - I have NO sympathy for GM having trouble or the people it will take with them. Not that I think GM will be "gone" in our lifetimes.

I have since owned VW and Honda/Acura cars and while they still have problems the dealerships take care of them. The VW's were similar to GM dealership experiences, but they didn't break as often and their tech's seemed at least a little compotent. I have nothing but praise for every honda/acura service department I have dealt with, while not 5 star treatment and they are still a "dealership" they are very good to people.

So forgive me if I question everyone who built any of the shitty cars I've owned from GM, and could careless if they don't get raises or bonuses. I am self employeed and if I sucked as bad as they did I wouldn't be getting paid at all, let alone getting a bonus or raise.

You may have noticed, yes I am a little bitter and its been about 4 years since I've owned a newer GM(I still have a 1976 Malibu classic in mint shape).
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:55 PM
  #175  
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That's ok...I'm bitter too, but only towards the UAW. I work for GMAC and my company turns over huge profits and is basically keeping GM afloat. I am not getting a bonus because of GM. Those damn UAW people get 6 figures to sweep the floor and they complain they don't get enough. My health insurance went up becasue of the new UAW agreement. It's still fairly cheap though. The only good thing is that my salary is in direct correlation with the UAW salaries.
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:40 PM
  #176  
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I just went through the entire GM brand showroom, which is probably 50 or so bland cars. I can't think of a single GM car that I would take over something from another brand and everyone I know thinks the same. They aren't designing what people want and they have troubling letting the public know what car line is above which in their lineup. Is chevrolet supposted to be more luxurious than saturn or buick? They have too much overlap and when people buy their cars which are for the most part lower end vehicles they have no where to go to buy upscale cars other than to a different company. They need to work to keep customers in their system. If it wasn't for their pickup truck sales they would be screwed.

Just look at their brands.

Buick - perceived as an old people's car

Chevrolet - bland lineup overall, even the corvette is bland in comparison to other rivals.

Cadillac - banking on love it or hate it styling with their whole product line

GMC - a lot of vehicles with the worst mileage average in the industry

Hummer - too little a sales base to make any difference. You know a vehicle is bad on gas when the manufacturer says N/A

Pontiac - boring for years, worst car in the history of vehicles in the aztek. Attempted a full redo with the G6 and GTO which all fell flat with car rental worthiness.

Saab - Very old model lineup with no new changes, are outclasses by competitors in every category.

Saturn - Another extremely shallow and boring lineup. Attempted resurgence in 2006 with the entrance of the Saturn Sky (very nice looking car) but very impractical.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:02 PM
  #177  
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:08 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by BadBadNeil
I just went through the entire GM brand showroom, which is probably 50 or so bland cars. I can't think of a single GM car that I would take over something from another brand and everyone I know thinks the same.
Yea, I can't think of a SINGLE thing that they make that I might want either.....

It's all just a bunch of ugly SHIT !!!







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Old 12-06-2005, 10:11 PM
  #179  
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actually I did see the corvette there and passed it over at the same speed I passed over the pontiac aztek. Don't like the styling at all, its the same ol' corvette/firebird/camaro look that they've had forever.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:44 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by BadBadNeil
actually I did see the corvette there and passed it over at the same speed I passed over the pontiac aztek. Don't like the styling at all, its the same ol' corvette/firebird/camaro look that they've had forever.

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Old 12-06-2005, 11:04 PM
  #181  
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I personally have a 96 Saturn in the family and it has been an average car. Its build quality is far from perfect, and interior quality is so-so, but it looked better, handled better, and was more powerful and less expensive than other cars at the time.

After 10 years and 86,000 miles, the car has been reasonably reliable by my standards. The only repairs that were made to the vehicle aside from scheduled maintenance were a broken alternator (around 70,000 miles), and I can see a transmission pan gasket needing to be replaced. The oil does burn about a quart of oil every 2000 miles, but it doesn't bother me much at all like it bothers some people, the engine is known to burn oil and did so from day 1.

Other than that, the car has never broken down or left me/anyone stranded. If the price was right, I certainly wouldn't hesistate to buy another GM product over a Honda/Acura product...I personally think that the Corollas/Camrys are very overpriced for their outdated engines and platforms.

GM has made many improvements over the years yet people fail to see them. The Oil Life Monitor was one example, and it is probably the best in the industry right now, better than the Acura system IMO. They were probably the pioneers in developing a longer-life ATF, beginning with the 100,000 mile service interval for Dexron III-G back in the 90s...and now they recently launched the new Dexron VI fluid which will be replacing the Dexron III-H over the course of 2006.

In addition, GM actually puts out some very good engines. The 2.2L, Ecotec 4-cyl gets about 35MPG on the highway for a small car, which is only average, but it still gets about 33MPG on the mid-sized Malibu and Pontiac G6, which is very competitve. Not to mention the top-mounted, cartridge oil filter for easy servicing, and the timing chain, unlike the timing belt in Honda V6 engines. It also lacks an EGR valve, which may simplify some things.

Its funny how people automatically assume that new GMs are "Bad" and Honda/Acuras/Toyotas/Nissans/etc are automatically "Good." Hondas are far from trouble-free; the transmissions in the 2G TL were a PITA, and the build quality of some of the cars aren't quite up to par. The Toyotas had problems with sludgemonster 2.2L/3.0L engines, and there engines are STILL very hard on oil to this day. Thus, Japanese vehicles aren't exactly trouble-free...

I don't disagree that GMs are lacking in terms of build quality to some degree, but they often cost $2000-$2500 less than the average Japanese car, at least in the small car category. I personally wouldn't mind putting up with a lower quality interior and a noisier engine if the engine was easier to service and I was able to save $2000 and possibly have lower insurance costs.

Just my :twocents:
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:10 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Right, because non-GM vehicles never have problems, and their dealerships are always nice and helpful?

Sorry to hear about your problem, but come on, you can't honestly be that thick-headed. This is beyond "my car had a problem so fuck GM"... it's an issue of economics that could affect everyone on a national and a global scale.
I get it, Michigan! Never in 40 years of driving have I had a car company f--k me and others a bad as GM did with their diesels. What they did to customers makes the Acura/Honda transmission thing seem like a non issue. GM is only getting what is coming to them. Not going to bother my stock portfolio one bit if they bite the big one. Like I said in the original post; I feel sorry for the little guy.
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:14 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Dan
I get it, Michigan! Never in 40 years of driving have I had a car company f--k me and others a bad as GM did with their diesels. What they did to customers makes the Acura/Honda transmission thing seem like a non issue. GM is only getting what is coming to them. Not going to bother my stock portfolio one bit if they bite the big one. Like I said in the original post; I feel sorry for the little guy.
What's wrong with their diesels? The Isuzu Built Duramax Diesels have been excellent....
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:34 AM
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It isn't surprising that GM is having problems. They're not providing a product that people want, it's as simple as that. Aside from the Corvette and the Escalade and some of their trucks, they don't have much to offer.

When I was shopping for a new whip before I bought my TL I went to a GM dealership to test drive a G6. The first GM dealership did not have one available to test drive. The second GM dealership I went to was completely ignorant regarding the car nor could they tell me if the G6 GTP was available or when it would be available. They only gave me the runaround when I tried to get information from them.

If that's the way they treat potential customers, I can see why they're having problems. Every other dealership I went to, they were falling over backwards and forwards trying to get my business. At GM, they were completely indifferent and lacked any kind of knowledge regarding their own product.

GM's predicament is unfortunate but it is of their own doing.
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:48 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by Juronimo
It isn't surprising that GM is having problems. They're not providing a product that people want, it's as simple as that. Aside from the Corvette and the Escalade and some of their trucks, they don't have much to offer.

When I was shopping for a new whip before I bought my TL I went to a GM dealership to test drive a G6. The first GM dealership did not have one available to test drive. The second GM dealership I went to was completely ignorant regarding the car nor could they tell me if the G6 GTP was available or when it would be available. They only gave me the runaround when I tried to get information from them.

If that's the way they treat potential customers, I can see why they're having problems. Every other dealership I went to, they were falling over backwards and forwards trying to get my business. At GM, they were completely indifferent and lacked any kind of knowledge regarding their own product.

GM's predicament is unfortunate but it is of their own doing.
Actually, the main cause of the problem is the rising legacy costs, coupled with high oil prices which had a huge impact on their major product line of trucks and SUVs. Simply and bluntly put, they are just experiencing a bad market currently.

These dealership problems you mentioned are common throughout the entire automotive industry. And GM also set record sales figures in the third quarter, so obviously selling isn't the problem.

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Old 12-07-2005, 02:00 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Dan
I get it, Michigan! Never in 40 years of driving have I had a car company f--k me and others a bad as GM did with their diesels. What they did to customers makes the Acura/Honda transmission thing seem like a non issue. GM is only getting what is coming to them. Not going to bother my stock portfolio one bit if they bite the big one. Like I said in the original post; I feel sorry for the little guy.
Living in Michigan doesn't really have much to do with it, to be honest. I've always just been a fan of GM and I follow up on it.

But as you can tell, that doesn't sway my purchase decision, as I bought an Acura, and convinced my younger brother to buy an Acura. I did, however, recommend buying a GMC XL Denali to my father. I choose cars on an individual basis, not based on brand; although I would be lying if brand name doesn't sway me one bit.

By the way, if GM goes down, your stock portfolio will most likely take a hit, because the failure of the largest corporation in the world is sure to make an impact on our national economy, and on a global scale.

You're right, though. GM is getting what is coming to them. They are the one responsible for the legacy costs, and they are the one responsible for relying too heavily on the trucks and SUVs. I just hope, for the sake of our economy, that GM pulls through. Otherwise Detroit is seriously fucked.
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:04 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Right, because non-GM vehicles never have problems, and their dealerships are always nice and helpful?

Sorry to hear about your problem, but come on, you can't honestly be that thick-headed. This is beyond "my car had a problem so fuck GM"... it's an issue of economics that could affect everyone on a national and a global scale.

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Old 12-07-2005, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan
Could not happen to a nicer bunch of people!
Had the misfortune of having a GM product in the late 70's. The car being a pos was not the worst problem, but the whole way they handled it was. Arrogant does not come close to the attitude from the dealer on up through zone managers and the corporate headquarters. Took 3 years, but I came out ahead in the end. Too bad the little people are the ones to suffer. F--K GM! I feel strangely better now.


not only did they sell me a pile of crap, but when it started having problems they basically washed their hands of me and the problems.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hoe#post977222

Originally Posted by zeroday
I bought a 1999 chevy tahoe sport 2 dr new in 99. This thing turned out to be the biggest piece of steaming dung to have ever slid out of a drunken mexican bull jockey's ass....

I found out it was built in Mexico, on a Friday....needless to say this POS was successfully lemon lawed the after much deliberation with GM. Spare yourself the headache. Learn from the misfortune of others like myself.

Last edited by zeroday; 12-07-2005 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:49 AM
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oh and fuck GM, i hope they go down in flames


edit: although i hope they sell the blueprints for the z06 to toyota so they can make it better.
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Right, because non-GM vehicles never have problems, and their dealerships are always nice and helpful?

Sorry to hear about your problem, but come on, you can't honestly be that thick-headed. This is beyond "my car had a problem so fuck GM"... it's an issue of economics that could affect everyone on a national and a global scale.


it's called survival of the fittest. it's called capitalism. the weak can and will be killed off and eaten. our economy will survive; it will just change.
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by zeroday
oh and fuck GM, i hope they go down in flames

lol

GM better not go down like that or the US economy will go down the toilet. This isn't a company that could just disappear and we'd wake up the following morning with no issues.

Think about it...
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Scrib
lol

GM better not go down like that or the US economy will go down the toilet. This isn't a company that could just disappear and we'd wake up the following morning with no issues.

Think about it...
ok you can't say something like that without supporting facts. although i dont have any to the contrary, i don't see how our economy depends on GM and their suppliers. i think we're diversified enough to weather through it without major issue.
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by zeroday
ok you can't say something like that without supporting facts. although i dont have any to the contrary, i don't see how our economy depends on GM and their suppliers. i think we're diversified enough to weather through it without major issue.

No, I don't have anything to support that statement. But considering what GM contributes to the GDP, the number of jobs... I don't think it'd go over well.
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:06 AM
  #194  
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Bankruptcy would be a great thing for GM. It would be a great way to help get out from having to use the UAW and all the benifits they want.
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:19 AM
  #195  
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The thing I cant understand is that while GM is on the brink of disaster, all the GM dealerships here are renovating and expanding.

And while all brands have dealer/warranty/support issues GM sets the bar on poor construction quality.

For example... Toyota trucks like the Tacoma, and GM trucks like the Envoy run on the exact same frame manufactured in the same plants. Toyota accepts any frame with more than 60% weld integrity. GM accepts 20% weld integrity. That means if a welded seam is 10 inches long only 2 inches of it can be welded and GM will accept it.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:11 AM
  #196  
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GM needs to cut the benefits.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:18 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by JLatimer
The thing I cant understand is that while GM is on the brink of disaster, all the GM dealerships here are renovating and expanding.

And while all brands have dealer/warranty/support issues GM sets the bar on poor construction quality.

For example... Toyota trucks like the Tacoma, and GM trucks like the Envoy run on the exact same frame manufactured in the same plants. Toyota accepts any frame with more than 60% weld integrity. GM accepts 20% weld integrity. That means if a welded seam is 10 inches long only 2 inches of it can be welded and GM will accept it.
Dealerships are a completely different entity from GM. They are privately owned. What they do to their building is their responsibility. However, GMAC will most likely finance the floor.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:36 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by zamo
GM needs to cut the benefits.
Easier said than done with the UAW in the way.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:37 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Bankruptcy would be a great thing for GM. It would be a great way to help get out from having to use the UAW and all the benifits they want.

You must not understand the stock market.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zamo
GM needs to cut the benefits.
They already have.
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