Ethanol: News and Discussion Thread

Old 12-28-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
Ever since going E10, I've noticed a loss of at least 5 MPG.

E5 would be nicer if we don't go back to pure gas.
I got ethanol free fuel about two years ago, the car felt more powerful and got much better gas mileage.

Originally Posted by gr8ness97
Gas prices gonna go up though?

I'd rather pay more for less ethanol
The savings from ethanol fuel is wiped out by the shitty mileage.
Old 12-28-2011, 01:27 PM
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This will lower food costs as well. Good move overall, ethanol subsidies were incredibly stupid.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:37 PM
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finally thank goodness
Old 12-28-2011, 01:46 PM
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Great move overall!

But I want some E85 in Los Angeles!
Old 12-28-2011, 02:33 PM
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what a waste of our money, granted it may have really helped out farmers.
Old 12-28-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Thank god, this will benefit all of us. Unless you grow corn
Actually this benefits the corn growers as well since they do not have to give up a portion of their corn for ethanol fuels, basically they will have to pay less to grow more corn, its on truthaboutcars.com.

Everyone wins, I don't even know why they tried to introduce ethanol infuel int he first place we would have been better off running straight gas. Now for E85 people I could car less if they want to get less MPG and pay more for gas let them poop away their moneys.
Old 12-29-2011, 11:30 AM
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Finally the current Congress gets something right. Goodbye Ethanol (I hope).

I HATE having to use ethanol. It simply makes no sense to me.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:24 PM
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E85 can continue to exist as long as E90 disappears. I want 100% gas, not mixed with smelly ethanol!
Old 01-04-2012, 01:16 PM
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went to quicktrip today and i didnt see any of those "may contain 10% garbage" stickers anywhere
Old 01-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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Please let this be the death of ethanol in the U.S.
Old 01-04-2012, 01:53 PM
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by phee
went to quicktrip today and i didnt see any of those "may contain 10% garbage" stickers anywhere
The ethanol is not going away - only the gov't subsidy. The news is already projecting a 4.5 c/gal increase at the pump by next week due to this. The regs requiring ethanol have not been recinded.
Old 01-04-2012, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by biker
The ethanol is not going away - only the gov't subsidy. The news is already projecting a 4.5 c/gal increase at the pump by next week due to this. The regs requiring ethanol have not been recinded.
Sooner or later, these ethanol regs will disappear just like the non-practical California zero-emission reg back in the 90's.
Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by biker
The ethanol is not going away - only the gov't subsidy. The news is already projecting a 4.5 c/gal increase at the pump by next week due to this.
Man, gas has already gone up like 10 cents over the past week.
Old 01-04-2012, 11:19 PM
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I saw this on the front page of the papers I brought into the customer lounge at work Tuesday morning and all I can say is 'about damn time' and

No change in the price of gas here (yet) but I'm hoping this will encourage more stations to offer ethanol-free.
Old 01-05-2012, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
Man, gas has already gone up like 10 cents over the past week.
Its gone up about 20 cents here
Old 01-05-2012, 01:12 PM
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Your tax dollars: WASTED

The failed Range Fuels wood-to-ethanol factory in southeastern Georgia that sucked up $65 million in federal and state tax dollars was sold Tuesday for pennies on the dollar to another bio-fuel maker with equally grand plans to transform the alternative energy world.

LanzaTech, a New Zealand-based biofuel company, paid $5.1 million for the plant in Soperton. Its main financial backer: Vinod Khosla, a California entrepreneur who also bankrolled Range Fuels, and helped secure its government loans, before Range went bust last year.

LanzaTech hasn't received the same type of loans, but the company has received $7 million from the U.S. departments of Energy and Transportation to assist in the development of alternative fuels.

The Range fiasco harkens other, failed renewable energy companies that received major taxpayer funding. California solar panel maker Solyndra got $535 million in federal loan guarantees. Beacon Power of Massachusetts, which makes energy-storage equipment, took in $43 million in federal money. Both filed for bankruptcy last year.

Range cost U.S. taxpayers $64 million and Georgia taxpayers another $6.2 million. Tuesday's sale netted $5.1 million which will help offset losses suffered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Georgia's money, which paid for some of the ethanol-making equipment, won't be recouped outright, but state officials expect LanzaTech to use the machinery.
http://www.ajc.com/business/georgia-...d-1289567.html
Old 01-05-2012, 01:38 PM
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:47 PM
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Gotta love it.
Old 01-06-2012, 10:30 AM
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all the right wingers are in uproar out here
Old 01-08-2012, 02:46 AM
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George W. is the reason for this. He was trying to get the mid western religious farmer vote. Corn ethanol production only costs tax payers money and is completely bogus. It only helps farmers (sorry I love ya, but grow food instead). May small farmers grow from this and produce food that is not just soy and corn. Corn and soy not only is killing our cars, but our land and people too.
Old 01-08-2012, 02:49 AM
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But just to add one more observation. I heard that they voted to continue subsidies???
Old 02-08-2012, 07:26 AM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communit...-block-sell-/1

Pressure is rising from a surprising array of interests to delay or block the sale of so-called E15 fuel at service stations.

A letter supporting more study and scientific evaluation before E15 is approved went to a House committee Monday, signed by 31 organizations.

They range from petroleum interests and automakers, to ones you might not imagine, such as environmental activist Friends of the Earth, dairy groups, the National Black Chamber of Commerce and representatives of the small-engine and snack-food industries.

The letter asks the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology to support a bill that "would require the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) to conduct necessary scientific and technical analysis on the implications of introducing mid-level ethanol blends into the marketplace before EPA moves forward with registering such fuels."

It's currently legal to sell gasoline fuel blended with up to 10% ethanol. Almost any vehicle can safely burn that. But it is suspected of causing premature wear to chainsaws, lawn mowers, boat engine and the like, which is why the small-engine interests opposing the moving to E15.

The EPA, pressed by ethanol interests, approved the idea of selling E15 at the corner station, and some labels were proposed for pumps dispensing E15, which NASCAR, a big backer of ethanol fuels, might be the only place E15 is legal.

But EPA said E15 had to be "registered" first -- that is, vendors had to guarantee it wouldn't cause environmental problems.

Last November, EPA said the fuel "is not registered with EPA and is therefore not legal for distribution or sale" at service stations. EPA is investigating reports that E15 is being sold some places.

The anti-ethanol lobby hopes to get a law passed that could block E15, even though it is considered the best bet to meet the government requirement for more "alternative" fuel production to reduce dependence on petroleum.

A fuel called E85 is legal. It is 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline, and is not considered a gasoline fuel by the government. It can be safely used only in so-called flex-fuel vehicles.

Corn growers and other ethanol interests want to continually boost the amount of ethanol mixed with gasoline. Most ethanol is made from corn, so it's good for the corn growers. And it's a renewable fuel than comes from the U.S., so has environmental and national-security appeal.

But ethanol has less energy than gasoline, so the more ethanol in the fuel, the less power and mileage an engine delivers. Some blends of ethanol also can cause more pollution, and there is an argument that food should not be used for fuel.
Old 02-08-2012, 09:17 AM
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Kill it kill it all
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:05 PM
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Bill to block E15 has been approved by House.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...408/1148/rss25

A House panel approved a bill Tuesday that would block the Environmental Protection Agency from allowing the use of a higher blend of ethanol for use in vehicles without further study.

The Science Committee approved the bill, sponsored by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisconsin, on a 19-7 party line vote.

Automakers and other engine makers have clashed with corn growers since 2010 over whether the United States should allow the use of a new blend of ethanol called E15 because it is 15 percent biofuel — usually made from corn.

The EPA has approved its use in all vehicles from 2001 and newer.

In a letter to House Science Committee chair Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a coalition of groups including the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the American Petroleum Institute, Friends of the Earth, Milk Producers Council, American Bakers Association and National Turkey Federation, urged Congress to take action.

"This bill will halt EPA's rush to introduce mid-level ethanol blends and ensure such fuel blends receive the proper scientific analysis before being put into the marketplace," the groups wrote.

The American Coalition for Ethanol criticized the bill, saying EPA has already studied the fuel at length.

The bill would "create new and unnecessary over-regulation for E15 and other ethanol-blended fuels and block consumer fuel choice," said the group's executive vice president Brian Jennings. "No other fuel, including gasoline, has undergone the same battery of tests. Once it hits the market, E15 will be clearly labeled for its intended use for consumers to prevent misfueling in small and non-road engines."
Another setback

The committee's action is another setback for ethanol advocates.

In December, Congress ended a 30-year tax subsidy for corn-based ethanol that cost taxpayers $6 billion annually and ended a tariff on imported Brazilian ethanol.

The policies have helped shift millions of tons of corn from feedlots, dinner tables and other products into gas tanks.

By some estimates, Congress has awarded $45 billion in subsidies to the ethanol industry since 1980.

Ethanol supporters are worried Congress might roll back a 2007 mandate that dramatically boosts the use of ethanol annually through 2022. The mandate jumps from 15 billion gallons of renewable fuels — including cellulosic ethanol in 2015 — to 36 billion gallons by 2022.

The Senate voted 73-27 in June to end the ethanol tax subsidy and tariff.

But Michigan Sens. Carl Levin, D-Detroit, and Debbie Stabenow, D-Lansing, were among the 27 senators who voted against ending the ethanol subsidy.

Michigan is the nation's 11th-largest corn producer, harvesting 315 million bushels of corn in 2010. The state has more than 11,000 corn growers and they planted corn on 2.45 million acres in 2010, or about 4 percent of all land in the state.

Automakers have twice filed suit challenging approval of use for the fuel.
Ups food prices

Growth Energy said previously it expected E15 to be at pumps by the end of 2011.

Growth CEO Tom Buis criticized the bill.

"This is a waste of time and a waste of taxpayer dollars," Buis said. "This would do nothing to help the American consumer, but only continues our reliance on the OPEC monopoly."

The group says it is essential to move to the higher blend in order to use the higher amounts of ethanol required by Congress under a 2007 energy act.

It says more than 136,000 new green-collar jobs will be created nationwide by moving to E15.

Opponents of ethanol argue that the use of more than 40 percent of the nation's corn has boosted food prices for consumers and feed costs for farmers. For the first time in 2011, the government estimated that more corn was used to produce ethanol than to feed animals in the United States.

Opponents of ethanol have cited a government study that suggested ethanol has boosted some food prices by 20 percent.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:44 PM
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:12 AM
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:28 AM
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:19 AM
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:17 PM
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EPA gives E15 go-ahead despite objections, approves production applications

I thought this was dead. WTF!?!?

As predicted and expected, the Environmental Protection Agency today approved the first applications to make E15, a blend of gasoline with 15 percent ethanol in it. This means that E15 is now a "significant step" closer to production and sale in America.

For decades, gasoline in the U.S. has had up to 10 percent ethanol in it, but the extra five points were enough to generate resistance. The Outdoor Power Equipment Institute and the Science Committee in the House of Representatives both took steps to prevent E15 from entering the national supply. Even the EPA admits not every vehicle should use the new blend, saying it is approved only for Model Year 2001 vehicles and newer.

Many automakers have been hesitant about E15, fearing fuel system and engine damage, so a number of them joined a lawsuit against it in 2010 through the Auto Alliance. Some have even gone so far as to say that any older vehicles that use E15 will have their warranties voided. The EPA's rules say that any pump dispensing E15 must be clearly labeled. The EPA is not requiring any station to sell E15 in any way, but the Obama Administration does want to encourage its use, and thus wants to help get 10,000 blender pumps installed in the U.S. over the next 5 years.

In late 2011, the U.S. Congress ended a 30-year tax subsidy on corn-based ethanol while also stopping tariffs on ethanol imported from Brazil. Since 1980, the ethanol industry has received an estimated $45 billion in subsidies.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/02/e...-production-a/
Old 04-02-2012, 07:00 PM
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Fuck ethanol. Fuck the EPA.
Old 04-02-2012, 07:43 PM
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Fuck the EPA. They need to get Fucking tossed under the bridge.
Old 04-02-2012, 08:35 PM
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Forgot about this thread.

So much for that bill to block E15
Old 04-03-2012, 07:48 AM
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Yet another reason to vote for a limited gov't - there's no need to get between a consumer and the product they want to buy. If I want to buy gas without any ethanol I should be able to. The argument that car emissions are polluting the world was lost 20+ years ago.
Old 05-16-2012, 11:46 AM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communit...rowth-energy/1

E15 fuel can wreck your engine, according to new data presented by auto industry trade groups.

The government has approved the use of a blend of 15% ethanol and 85% gasoline, but that was premature, because testing wasn't finished, according to Auto Alliance and Global Automakers, Washington, D.C., trade groups that represent most car companies.

Groups representing small-engine manufacturers and power-equipment makers also have said that alcohol-blend fuels are bad for the engines in boats, chain saws, lawn mowers, generators and the like.

A statement today from the two auto groups cites "new results from a two-year study on engine durability" done for the Coordinating Research Council (CRC). The study for CRC was done by FEV, which the groups describe as "a longtime consultant to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."

The statement from Auto Alliance and Global Automakers says:

The CRC study released today showed adverse results from E15 use in certain popular, high-volume models of cars. Problems included damaged valves and valve seats, which can lead to loss of compression and power, diminished vehicle performance, misfires, engine damage, as well as poor fuel economy and increased emissions.

"Clearly many vehicles on the road today are at risk of harm from E15. The unknowns concern us greatly, since only a fraction of vehicles have been tested to determine their tolerance to E15," said Mitch Bainwol, president and CEO of Auto Alliance. "Automakers did not build these vehicles to handle the more corrosive E15 fuel. That's why we urged EPA to wait for the results of further testing."

The potential costs to consumers are significant. The most likely repair would be cylinder head replacement, which costs from $2000-4000 for single cylinder head engines and twice as much for V-type engines.


Growth Energy, representing ethanol producers, in 2009 petitioned the EPA to allow E15 fuel, which it has done for newer vehicles.

But in 2008, EPA had outlined the tests needed to approve the waiver allowing E15, and those weren't done before the government OK was given to E15, the auto groups say.

Growth Energy disputed the CRC data as being based on "misinformation and inaccurate data."

Here's why Growth Energy says the CRC study is worthless:

Growth Energy's says:

The EPA tests were much more thorough, testing more engines for longer periods, and for 120,000 miles and the results were consistently clear – E15 did not produce any negative effects. If that is not enough, consider the fact that NASCAR has run close to two million miles on E15 in some of the toughest engine conditions imaginable with no problems whatsoever. As a matter of fact, their extensive use of E15 has shown the benefits of increased horsepower and performance.

Here's what the auto groups/CRC study did:

The CRC Engine Durability study took duplicates of eight different vehicle model engines spanning 2001-2009 model years. All 16 vehicles were tested over a 500-hour durability cycle corresponding to about 100,000 miles of vehicle usage. A range of engine operating parameters was monitored during the test, including cylinder compression, valve wear, valve leakage, emissions and emissions control system diagnostics. Two of the engines tested on E15 had mechanical damage. Another engine showed increased tailpipe emissions beyond the allowable limit.

This study adds to the body of knowledge on the effects of higher blends of ethanol. Ten research papers have been published on the effects of increasing the ethanol blend ratio to E15 from the current E10. In a study by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory on the impact on fuel dispensers, all gaskets, seals and O-rings swelled and showed effects that can result in leaks. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) tested samples of service station equipment, and found that, on average, about half of the equipment failed the compatibility tests. Another NREL study found severe damage to marine engines run on E15.

Automakers advise consumers to continue to follow the guidance on fuel selection in their vehicle owner's manuals. While automakers do market certain vehicles called Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV) that can use up to 85 percent ethanol, these vehicles have been designed to tolerate the more corrosive ethanol, including changes to fuel pumps, fuel tanks, fuel injectors, engines, control systems, various calibration capacities, emissions systems and materials used.
Old 05-16-2012, 01:06 PM
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Uggh, I don't even want to think about what gas is doing to the inside of my engine.
Old 05-16-2012, 01:45 PM
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I'll just live in a box and buy race gas...... Ethanol is so stupid.
Old 05-16-2012, 02:47 PM
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Give me back my ethanol free gas
Old 09-21-2012, 10:44 AM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communit...mum/70000853/1

Under a new rule, the EPA will require you to buy a minimum of four gallons of gas from any pump that sells E15, or gasoline that's 15% ethanol.

Ethanol is the controversial fuel additive made mostly from corn.

Most stations sell E10, or 10% ethanol. But the handful of stations that sell E15, which made its debut two months ago, generally dispense it from the same pump as E10. Problem is, anyone who fills up with E10 after an E15 buyer could get as much as a quart of residual E15, American Motorcycle Association spokesman Peter Terhorst told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

It's no big deal if you buy a lot of gas. But those who purchase just a few gallons â?? from motorcyclists to folks with lawn mowers â?? could damage their engines and void their warranties. Hence the four-gallon rule.

The EPA's rule should help mitigate this, to be sure, and most critics contend that the rule reflects bad gas â?? E15 â?? in the first place. The EPA certified vehicles back to the 2001 model year for the 15% ethanol blend, but automakers have demurred. The Auto Alliance, a trade association that represents 11 major automakers, raised concerns last May about potential engine failures. "Automakers did not build these vehicles to handle the more corrosive E15 fuel," Alliance President Mitch Bainwol said in a statement.

What's more, E15's lower energy density will lower gas mileage. As it stands, E10 already docks 3% to 4% in fuel efficiency compared with ethanol-free gas. Fill up with E15, and you can expect to lose a bit more.
Old 09-21-2012, 09:54 PM
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As has been said many times before, fuck the EPA. Bunch of bastards.

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