Diesel Engines news **Sales on Rise in US (page 1)**

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Old 06-30-2009, 09:23 AM
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by biker
The burn out in the test against the Prius was pretty impressive.

http://tdi.vw.com/eco-conscious-car-showdown/
Old 06-30-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
You mean exhaust sound ? Honda engines don't make noise unless the rocker arms need adjustments. Only high flow filters and exhaust devices make noise. Or turbo wastegate if so modified.
hehe, I had my intake resonator removed. I find that getting an aftermarket exhaust doesn't really too much of a difference, I mean it's much louder outside than inside the car, which I don't really like.
Old 07-02-2009, 08:48 AM
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Volkswagen of America today reported June 2009 sales of 19,027 units, an 18 percent decline over June 2008 sales. Volkswagen said that its clean diesel models posted their best sales month since their launch with a total of 5,072 units sold, or 26 percent of total sales.

The Jetta SportWagen posted its best sales month ever with 1,982 units. Clean diesel sales accounted for 81 percent of Sportwagen sales, 40 percent of Jetta sedan sales and 29 percent of Touareg sales.

“Volkswagen of America is encouraged by the momentum of our clean diesel TDI sales,” said Mark Barnes, Chief Operating Officer, Volkswagen of America, Inc. “It appears that U.S. consumers are starting to realize the many benefits of today’s clean diesels–vehicles that attain more than 30 percent better fuel economy while emitting 25 percent less greenhouse gas emission, all without sacrificing driving dynamics.”
Old 07-02-2009, 09:07 AM
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^ those are pretty good numbers - too bad Honda postponed their diesel.
Old 07-02-2009, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by biker
^ those are pretty good numbers - too bad Honda postponed their diesel.
Too bad they made a big mistake by doing that. Once again, they'll be late to the game if they do ever bring it here. They'll probably time it just right so that diesel fuel will be the same price or higher than premium gas again.
Old 07-02-2009, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LuvMyTSX
Too bad they made a big mistake by doing that. Once again, they'll be late to the game if they do ever bring it here. They'll probably time it just right so that diesel fuel will be the same price or higher than premium gas again.
Completely agree -- it was a big mistake. I think Honda was way overly cautious in its decision to pull the plug on the diesel TSX. They have to know that fuel prices weren't going to remain under $2/gal forever and that prices fluctuate and that diesel wouldn't always be way more than gas.

Now VW is successfully running an ad blitz and is selling plenty of its efficient Jetta TDIs, and Acura is releasing a piggish V6 just in time for rising gas prices. Nice work guys -- you sure nailed that one!

I totally understand the need for an engine like a V6 for customers who so desire, but why scrap the diesel? Give us 3 options! Base I4 for a low cost entry point, efficient and high torque diesel for fuel consumption, and V6 for power luxury shoppers. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: I would probably already own a TSX if the diesel were available.
Old 07-02-2009, 10:48 AM
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Maybe they'll re-think their decision and bring it for the MMC.
Old 07-02-2009, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by spurfan15
Give us 3 options! Base I4 for a low cost entry point, efficient and high torque diesel for fuel consumption, and V6 for power luxury shoppers.
What, like a Tier 1 luxury car company?
Old 07-02-2009, 07:58 PM
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I thought the TSX auto didn't pass the emission test? That's why it's not coming? I don't know man, I don't think Honda is that good with diesel yet. If they bring it here, I can already how people would be saying, "they are late to the diesel game, and still the diesel engine is weak and not competitive. Once again Honda FAILED, as always. Great job Honda, you have just spent billions of dollars to bring POS over and what now? Honda is gonna charge $3k more than a base TSX for the diesel? I can get a Jetta for so and so cheaper, at least VW knows how to make diesel."
Old 07-02-2009, 08:50 PM
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There is nothing wrong in alteast trying to market alternative technologies. THere is tax credit for diesel car. Its much better to have $35K diesel TSX than $30K Prius or $40K HS-250h. Honda can never compete with Toyota in Hybrids or higher priced cars. (Those costing upper $40K).
Insight already turn into POS in less than two months.
Old 07-02-2009, 09:07 PM
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Once again, it's about face again.

Honda wants to do things it's own way. Almost every diesel car makers nowadays are using urea injection to neutralize emissions so as to pass the stringent US smog regulations.

But Honda doesn't want to follow them, and instead it resorts to use exotic metal catalyst to do the same job. However, this catalyst approach is only good enough for the European countries, but not good enough for the US regulations.

As a result, no diesel engines for the US market, only for the EU markets.
Old 07-02-2009, 10:27 PM
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VW diesel dont use urea. it is the V6 diesel that are problem for now.
Even in Canada it is gaining acceptance.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/mar...th-1416940012/
Volkswagen Canada has its Third Best Month Ever
Leading the increase in passenger car sales is the increasing consumer acceptance of Volkswagen's TDI Clean Diesel technology propelling an increase in new Jetta sales by 144.1% during June. TDI Clean Diesel sales comprised almost a quarter of Volkswagen vehicle sales for the month
Old 07-03-2009, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX
Insight already turn into POS in less than two months.
Old 07-03-2009, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Once again, it's about face again.

Honda wants to do things it's own way. Almost every diesel car makers nowadays are using urea injection to neutralize emissions so as to pass the stringent US smog regulations.

But Honda doesn't want to follow them, and instead it resorts to use exotic metal catalyst to do the same job. However, this catalyst approach is only good enough for the European countries, but not good enough for the US regulations.

As a result, no diesel engines for the US market, only for the EU markets.
VW has been doing non urea in the US for quite some time now.

Non-urea injection is not the reason why Honda is not going diesel.....because clearly it can and already is being accomplished.
Old 07-03-2009, 12:20 PM
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Apparently in the automatic passing US smog it can't be done... yet!

Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
VW has been doing non urea in the US for quite some time now.

Non-urea injection is not the reason why Honda is not going diesel.....because clearly it can and already is being accomplished.
Old 07-03-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CL6
Apparently in the automatic passing US smog it can't be done... yet!
Actually I don't think that was the last set of info about diesel. After that news hit, we saw info saying it was related to business conditions, not technical hurdles. I think it was raw materials prices, plus diesel prices and their perception that us consumers lack interest in diesel. There was some indication that a diesel could be quickly brought to the US if they decide to, but its unclear what it will take for that to happen.
Old 07-03-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by spurfan15
Actually I don't think that was the last set of info about diesel. After that news hit, we saw info saying it was related to business conditions, not technical hurdles. I think it was raw materials prices, plus diesel prices and their perception that us consumers lack interest in diesel. There was some indication that a diesel could be quickly brought to the US if they decide to, but its unclear what it will take for that to happen.


As far as I remember, they initially used it not passing emissions as an excuse. It was later said that it was canceled due to business decisions. I honestly do not believe for a second that they couldn't get it to pass emissions.
Old 07-04-2009, 02:49 AM
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^+1 - tho even if Honda wanted to, it can't just flip a switch to intro the diesel.
Old 07-04-2009, 04:45 PM
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don't know man, don't have a degree in commerce.
Old 07-06-2009, 02:55 PM
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Does anybody have a link to this point about diesel and not being worth it?
Old 07-06-2009, 03:13 PM
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I honestly don't remember where I saw it, but I know I saw it a couple times. I'll try to think....
Old 07-08-2009, 02:40 PM
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I'll take diesel over hybrid any day.

Most of the driving in the U.S. in highway, and even though it's quite congested now, most of the miles are still eaten up by highways. Diesel is much better than hybrid for this.

Plus, you don't need a battery, and get nice torque.

The price of diesel is going to be the biggest hurdle, due to its instability.

A vehicle like the BMW 123d would have been a perfect commute car.
Old 07-08-2009, 06:23 PM
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Seems like many people buy the hybrids for the holy status.

Originally Posted by TMQ
I'll take diesel over hybrid any day.

Most of the driving in the U.S. in highway, and even though it's quite congested now, most of the miles are still eaten up by highways. Diesel is much better than hybrid for this.

Plus, you don't need a battery, and get nice torque.

The price of diesel is going to be the biggest hurdle, due to its instability.

A vehicle like the BMW 123d would have been a perfect commute car.
Old 07-09-2009, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CL6
Seems like many people buy the hybrids for the holy status.
But there's limit to those numbers - and fortunately, the current financial crisis has thought some folks to actually do the math in their purchasing decisions.
Old 07-09-2009, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CL6
Does anybody have a link to this point about diesel and not being worth it?
Honda mistake is it is trying to put diesel in bigger model like V6. They want to jump to high on first attempt.. rather it should start with Fit/Civic. Diesel is going to be popular in Asia. directly effecting Honda bottomline. Toyota/VW has 1.4 to 1.6 TDI engines.





http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=1767621&p=1
In many European markets, the regulatory focus on carbon dioxide rather than nitrogen oxide emissions has made diesel-engine cars popular while sidelining gas-electric hybrids, placing diesel powerhouses such as Volkswagen, Peugeot and Renault in pole position.

Honda had planned to launch clean-diesel cars this year but delayed the plans partly due to the difficulty of lowering costs.

Honda will also eventually need a different hybrid system because the current version, mounted on the hot-selling new Insight hatchback, has just one electric motor that would be insufficient for a much larger car
"We had originally planned to use clean-diesel engines on bigger models such as the Accord, CR-V and MDX, so we'll have to come up with something," Fukui said, noting that Honda was working on a two-motor system, among others
Old 07-10-2009, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX

In many European markets, the regulatory focus on carbon dioxide rather than nitrogen oxide emissions has made diesel-engine cars popular while sidelining gas-electric hybrids, placing diesel powerhouses such as Volkswagen, Peugeot and Renault in pole position.
This is why the CA tree huggers have so far ruined the chances of diesel - instead of focusing on CO2 (the thing that they say is causing global warming ) they went for limiting NOX and diesels.

The likes of Al Gore and Co want to eliminate the internal combustion engine and have everyone driving plug-in hybrids. The large scale adoption of diesels (like in Europe) would have put a huge dent into that plan and hence the current state of affairs.
Old 08-04-2009, 09:12 AM
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Arrow PayBack

July 29, 2009

With gasoline and diesel fuel prices staying low -- and uncharacteristically consistent -- as the summer progresses, data analysts at Edmunds.com, parent of AutoObserver, did a recent crunch of the often-discussed payback times for the nation's two competing fuel-saving drivetrains: hybrid-electric and diesel-engine vehicles.

The latest round goes to diesel.

There are two factors currently working in diesel's favor. First, diesel fuel prices have dropped precipitously since last summer's explosion to $4 per gallon (and beyond) and normalized to pricing quite near regular unleaded gasoline.

Second, the price "premium" for diesel technologies is low -- and in a few cases, combines with federal tax credits to make the diesel-powered vehicle actually cheaper than a comparable gasoline-engine variant of the same model. For those vehicles, diesel engine payback time is immediate.

Gasoline Price Low, Hybrids Lose

Conversely, Edmunds.com analysts point out that as gasoline prices stay low, hybrids struggle to justify their typically higher initial-cost premium.

The average premium for all hybrids is $4,981, with premiums ranging from just a few hundred dollars (Toyota Camry Hybrid: $289) to big-bucks upcharges such as the GMC Sierra Hybrid ($7,493) and perhaps the ultimate hybrid, the Lexus LS 600h L ($15,969) from Toyota's upscale division.

The average diesel engine premium, meanwhile, currently is just $2,360.

The cost premium for both technologies is derived by including all available incentives and tax credits and uses Edmunds.com's proprietary True Market Value (TMV) to determine each vehicle's "real-world" cost, which often is less than its actual MSRP.

Hybrids: Still a Costly Choice

Using current gasoline and diesel-fuel prices -- $2.53 per gallon for gasoline and $2.54 for diesel - hybrids can't touch the payback times for diesel-powered models.

Using a 15,000-mile annual driving figure, the lowest hybrid payback time is slightly more than six months for the Camry Hybrid. The Lexus RX 450h, one of the market's most popular hybrids, requires six years' worth of 15,000-mile-per-year driving to pay back its $2,792 premium.

But most hybrid models take longer to recoup their initial extra cost at today's gasoline prices. One typical example is Ford Motor Co.'s 2010 Fusion Hybrid: its $4,175 premium over a conventional Fusion requires 8.1 years to achieve payback, say Edmunds.com data analysts. A Honda Civic Hybrid:13.3 years.

The longest hybrid payback time: the already mentioned Lexus LS 600h L -- 70.3 years at current gasoline prices. 2010 Toyota Prius Red - 240.JPG

And one intriguing "special" comparison comes between Toyota's redesigned 2010 Prius and Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s all-new Insight. Consumers and hybrid enthusiasts have argued about each car's "value" compared with the other, but judged strictly by their price in relation to their EPA fuel economy, the Prius costs $4,030 more than the Insight and would require 26.2 years of driving to recover its "premium" over the price of the Insight.

Diesel Payback: Can't Touch This


Thanks mostly to markedly lower cost premiums and the widespread availability of tax rebates, diesels currently are a much better payback proposition. Current market conditions also mean many diesels are selling for less than MSRP.

The best deals in diesel (with one exception) are in the Mercedes-Benz showroom: generous tax credits have diesel-powered variants of the GL- and R-Class currently with True Market Value figures less than their gasoline-engine counterparts.

A diesel-powered 2009 GL320 CDI is a giant $2,745 less than the GL450 (which uses a gasoline V8), leading to a payback immediately upon purchase of the diesel model.

The same is true for the 2009 R320 Bluetec, which ends up costing $136 less than the gasoline V6-motivated R350. And Mercedes' 2009 ML320 Bluetec also is a fine deal in relation to its gasoline-engine counterpart, with a premium of $508 that is paid back in just 1.4 years of 15,000-mile-per-year driving.

Other diesel payback times include Volkswagen's popular Jetta TDI, at 4.1 years to pay back its $1,760 premium; BMW's 335d, at 5.6 years to pay back a $2,558 premium; and BMW's X5 xDrive 35d at 4.6 years to pay back its $1,732 premium.

The longest diesel payback time is for a Mercedes, however. Because of large incentives to clear out gasoline variants of the now-superceded 2009 E-Class - incentives the diesel variant didn't require - it would take 20.6 years to pay back the 2009 E320 Bluetec's diesel premium. -- By Bill Visnic

1 - Diesel-powered vehicles like the Mercedes-Benz's GL320 CDI represent a great deal at the moment because diesel pays back at the moment of purchase. (Photo by Mercedes-Benz)

2 - The longest hybrid payback time is for the Lexus 600h L at 70.3 years at current gasoline prices. (Photo by Toyota)

3. In the much-argued measure of which hybrid delivers more efficiency in relation to its cost, Honda's new Insight hybrid whips up on its chief rival, the Toyota Prius. It would take 26-plus years of driving to negate the Prius' higher price...
Old 08-04-2009, 11:13 AM
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The average diesel engine premium, meanwhile, currently is just $2,360.
That premium is still too high if makers want big adoption numbers. The E-class E320 CDI had a premium of less than $1000 - that's what it should be and with a tax rebate some models are around that . The problem is not just the perceived and MSRP premium but the configuration and actual selling price premium. Some makers configure the diesel in such a way (load it up with features) that you can't make a direct comparison with the gas equivalent. Also, the few diesels on sale now have a smaller discount than gas ones. So far that hasn't stopped the diesel Jetta Wagon from selling like crazy.
Old 08-04-2009, 12:11 PM
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^^ VW can't keep the TDI Jetta on the lot...they are going out the door like mad.

Hopefully other makers will take note, and follow VW's lead and provide more clean diesel to the NA market.
Old 08-04-2009, 03:05 PM
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I think comparing hybrids and diesels solely on the basis of payback is kind of silly... You have to look at the whole car, the entire package, and even people who are attracted to Priuses or TDIs are not usually looking at JUST higher fuel economy. A Prius is a completely different car than a Jetta, you might like one but hate the other. One is blatantely high tech, futuristic and full of gadgets, the other is conservative and looks and feels like a regular car. Some people don't care about dealing with diesel fuel, others might be put off. Reducing the whole decision to "which one costs less in the end" and passing the more expensive choice as "illogical" doesn't make sense, any more than it makes sense to saying "every logical person should buy car X instead of car Y because it costs less".
Old 08-05-2009, 01:51 AM
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Please don't forget how much and how often the diesel car drivers have to refill the urea tanks. This expense is often left out from the "payback" calculations.
Old 08-05-2009, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Please don't forget how much and how often the diesel car drivers have to refill the urea tanks. This expense is often left out from the "payback" calculations.
That's not an issue for VW, but you are right that it should be in the cost equation for the models that use it.

I think comparing hybrids and diesels solely on the basis of payback is kind of silly...
For all models other than the Prius/Insight the payback should certainly be the main factor (once you decide on a model) because the gas/regular equivalent car is the same. If Honda does ever offer the diesel, in say the Civic, then a direct payback comparison can be made. However, I don't see any maker offer both a hybrid and diesel model of a single car.
Old 08-03-2011, 01:42 PM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communit...lectric-cars/1

If you think electric cars will save the day when it comes to automakers meeting new government fuel-mileage regulations, Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne begs to differ.

He says the big improvements will come in more efficient diesel and gasoline engines. The Associated Press reports from Traverse City, Mich., where Marchionne gave a speech, that electric vehicles are being overhyped.

Guys like Marchionne are spending a lot of time thinking about such issues right now. They are trying figure out how to cope with the 54.5 mile-per-gallon corporate average fuel economy standard announced last Friday. It slowly goes into effect leading up to 2025. It's bad enough that Marchionne has to figure out how to get Chrysler to 35.5 mpg by 2016 when divisions like Dodge are rooted in advertising their big American performance vehicles.
Old 08-03-2011, 01:43 PM
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Sergio gets it and is not PC with respect to hybrids/plugins.

Last edited by biker; 08-03-2011 at 01:45 PM.
Old 01-31-2012, 08:35 AM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communit...osch-mileage/1

The anti-diesel sentiment in the U.S. is eroding fast, according to component and auto-technology supplier Bosch.

The company's data show that 32% of consumers said last year they would consider a diesel vehicle, up from just 12% in 2006, according to Lars Ullrich, director of marketing for Bosch Diesel Systems North America.

That seems to match behavior. When a vehicle is available with a diesel, 33% choose the diesel version, he says.

Diesels get about 30% better fuel economy than similar gasoline models, though diesels do best on the highway and are less-impressive on city mpg. The problem is that lots of makers are still withholding their diesel engines from the U.S. market. Ullrich thinks the diesel tide will turn. "An avalanche of clean diesels coming into the market," should boost diesel vehicle sales, Ulrich says. "That makes us very optimistic."

Poster car for U.S. diesels is the Volkswagen Jetta SportWagen. About 85% are sold with diesels. The car's image as a practical vehicle begs for the fuel economy and pulling power of a diesel, and that combination appeals to practical-minded U.S. buyers. It starts at $26,030, or $1,250 more than the similar gasoline version.

VW sells more U.S. diesels than any other maker: Golf, 55% diesel; Touareg SUV, about 50%; Jetta sedan, about 25%. VW says overall diesel sales in 2011 were up 14% vs. 2010.

He discussed the U.S. diesel market in an interview at the Washington, D.C., auto show recently.

He forecasts that the number of vehicles in which diesel engines are available will double to 50 the next two or three years. Some he must keep secret because of agreements with automakers that Bosch supplies. He cited these as evidence that the U.S. no longer is hugely hostile to diesel power:

Chevrolet Cruze is to offer a diesel option next year. General Motors CEO Dan Akerson disclosed that tidbit in an interview with Drive On last summer.
Jeep Grand Cherokee adds a diesel version next year, prompting parent Chrysler Group to add 1,100 jobs at the Jefferson North factory in Detroit to build them. Ullrich didn't say so, but it's fair to speculate that the mechanically similar Dodge Durango could be in line for a diesel, as well.
Cadillac ATS, the brand's new, small rival to BMW 3-series, gets a diesel during the car's first generation, GM President of the Americas Mark Reuss says. ATS is coming this summer as a 2013 model. Reuss didn't say just when a diesel would join.
Mazda plans a North American diesel next year as part of its Skyactiv suite of fuel-saving technology. Mazda's being cagey about what vehicle will offer it.
Chrysler plans a new version of the discontinued Dakota pickup in 2016 and will include a diesel, Ullrich says. Chrysler's product plan shows no direct Dakota replacement, but does show a unibody-design mid-size pickup (think Honda Ridgeline) is possible.
Why diesel popularity hasn't grown faster:

Higher vehicle prices: $1,000 to $2,000 more expensive than a similar gasoline model is typical.
Higher fuel prices: About 3.89 a gallon vs. $3.43 for gasoline, according to data published by AAA travel organization. Why? Because federal tax on diesel is 6 cents a gallon more than on gasoline. Because demand for diesel is global; it's the common fuel -- not gasoline -- in many countries. Because diesel is similar enough to heating oil and other petroleum products that it has to fight for refinery space. In winter, when homeowners in the northeast burn heating oil, there's less refinery capacity for diesel.
Prejudice: Many people still think diesel exhaust is smoky, black, smelly. In today's diesel cars, it isn't. Some people still have bad memories, or have heard horror stories, about unreliable GM diesels in the 1970s and 1980s. GM is so sure that'll never happen again that it'll be first among the Detroit 3 to field a diesel car when it launches the Cruze diesel.
Odor: Though diesel exhaust no longer stinks, the fuel still does.
Fuel stations: There's some fear, generally unfounded, that it's hard to find diesel fuel. More than 40% of stations carry it, though that includes truck stops.
Old 02-01-2012, 04:48 AM
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Prejudice: Many people still think diesel exhaust is smoky, black, smelly. In today's diesel cars, it isn't. Some people still have bad memories, or have heard horror stories, about unreliable GM diesels in the 1970s and 1980s. GM is so sure that'll never happen again that it'll be first among the Detroit 3 to field a diesel car when it launches the Cruze diesel.
Odor: Though diesel exhaust no longer stinks, the fuel still does.
I don't feel this way (anymore) about diesels yet, I'm still not interested.
Old 02-01-2012, 11:27 AM
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It's about time the U.S. wakes up and realizes the benefits of diesel engines.
Old 02-12-2012, 09:09 PM
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i drove a diesel honda in europe and its really great it was an older gen though
Old 02-16-2012, 01:48 AM
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It seems Korean diesel engine tech is at par with there Hybrid.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/carsa...g-shocker.aspx
The 88mpg Kia fails to do 88mpg shocker!


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