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Old 10-16-2007, 12:52 PM
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Exclamation Consumer Reports: Toyota Slips to 5th

If I am reading this right, Honda is #1 & Acura is #2



Toyota Slips in Reliability Rankings
Automaker slips to fifth from first place, and some versions of Camry, Tundra and Lexus GS no longer recommended.
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 16 2007: 1:21 PM EDT

NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.

2007 Toyota Camry: Because of poor predicted reliability, V6-powered versions of the Toyota Camry are no longer recommended by Consumer Reports.

Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.

But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.

"We are still, by any measure, a very reliable make," said Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis.

Toyota Motor Co., which makes Toyota, Lexus and Scion cars, makes 44 percent of the cars rated as "Most Reliable" by Consumer Reports, Dominicis pointed out.

Toyota recently passed Ford in sales and is now the second best-selling car company in the United States behind General Motors.

Domestic manufacturers General Motors (Charts, Fortune 500), Ford (Charts, Fortune 500) and Chrysler continued to improve in the Consumer Reports reliability rankings. But only Buick, GM's near-luxury brand ranked number 10, made into the top ten.

Among individual models, GM's closely related GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook SUVs earned a Consumer Reports recommendation based on their first full year of data. The Dodge Charger also earned a recommendation after its reliability showed substantial improvement from previous years.

Ford, in particular, is improving in quality, according to Consumer Reports. In all, 93 percent of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles showed average or better reliability in the most recent reliability survey.

Among overall brands, Ford's Mercury brand ranked 11th, the Ford brand ranked 13th and the Lincoln luxury brand ranked 14th. Other than Buick, they were the highest-ranking domestic brands.

Mike Hardie, Ford's director of quality, predicted that Ford would take the top position in Consumer Reports reliability rankings in the near future.

Ford's quality has tended to be more consistent, with steady improvement year over year, than that of other domestic manufacturers, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.

"GM and Chrysler have been more hit-and-miss," said Champion.

Of the 39 cars rated "Most Reliable" in Consumer Reports new list, four are by domestic manufacturers. They are the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, two-wheel-drives Ford F-150 V6 and GM's Pontiac Vibe. The Vibe is built in cooperation with Toyota and shares its engineering with the Toyota Matrix.

But 20 of the 44 "least reliable" models named by Consumer Reports were also from domestic manufacturers.

The least reliable car of all, according to Consumer Reports survey, is General Motors' Pontiac Solstice sports car. Its reliability was calculated to be 234 percent worse than average. It was followed closely by GM's Cadillac Escalade EXT, which is calculated to be 220 percent less reliable than the average vehicle.

European manufacturers showed some of the biggest improvements in overall brand rankings. Porsche rose 20 places since last year's survey to finish ninth, for example. Meanwhile, Mini rose 16 places and Jaguar rose 17.

Consumer Reports' reliability rankings differ significantly from those released recently by J.D. Power and Associates. In the J.D. Power most recent "Vehicle Dependability Survey," five of the top ten brands were domestic and Buick tied Lexus for first place.

One major reason for that difference: J.D. Power only surveys owners of three-year-old vehicles. But Consumer Reports surveys its subscribers about vehicles from all three of the most recent model years, unless the vehicle has changed significantly. If the vehicle has changed in that time, only vehicles built since the change are included.

Consumer Reports' rankings are based on survey responses from subscribers to the magazine and its Website. Responses included information on almost 1.3 million vehicles.

Over the past few years, both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power surveys have showed similar trends, however, with domestic car brands improving in quality with European brands generally lagging behind. Top of page


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Old 10-16-2007, 01:34 PM
  #242  
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In the Family Car category the Milan/Fusion V6 ranked higher than my 07 AV6.


Toyota Prius
Honda Accord (4-cyl., 2007)
Ford Fusion (V6, AWD)*
Mercury Milan (V6, AWD)*
Honda Accord (V6, 2007)
Hyundai Sonata (4-cyl.)
Ford Fusion (4-cyl.)
Mercury Milan (4-cyl.)
Toyota Camry Hybrid*
Nissan Altima (4-cyl.)*
Ford Fusion (V6, FWD)
Mercury Milan (V6, FWD)
Subaru Legacy (4-cyl.)
Kia Optima*
Saturn Aura XE*
Buick LaCrosse
Toyota Camry (4-cyl.)*
Hyundai Sonata (V6)
Subaru Legacy (turbo)
Pontiac Grand Prix (V6)
Chevrolet Malibu (V6, 2007)
Mazda6 Sedan (4-cyl.) ** AVERAGE **
Chevrolet Malibu (4-cyl., 2007)
Nissan Altima (V6)*
Volvo S40/V50 (non-turbo)
Mazda6 Sedan (V6)
Chevrolet Impala (V6)
Volvo S40/V50 (turbo, AWD)*
Saturn Aura XR*
Toyota Camry (V6)*
Volvo S40/V50 (turbo, FWD)*
Pontiac G6
Volkswagen Passat (4-cyl.)
Volkswagen Passat (V6, FWD)*
Chevrolet Impala (V8)
Volkswagen Passat (V6, AWD)* (-135%) <---off the chart much worse than avg
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Old 10-16-2007, 07:36 PM
  #243  
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Verrrry interesting....
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:59 PM
  #244  
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Meh, I'd still buy a Toyota.
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Old 10-16-2007, 10:56 PM
  #245  
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So not only is Toyota making soulless and boring cars, they've whored out so many, so quickly that their once vaunted reliability is in the crapper?

Interesting...
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:42 AM
  #246  
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Lightbulb Another Story

Brands from Asia Remain on Top

Models from Honda Motor Co. and Acura, its luxury division, are ranked highest, according to Consumer Reports magazine, which polled about 1 million subscribers.
The Associated Press

DETROIT — Asian brands continue to trounce their domestic rivals in Consumer Reports’ annual survey of vehicle reliability, but Toyota’s scores are falling while Ford is making its most reliable vehicles in years, the nonprofit group said Tuesday.

Honda Motor Co. and its luxury Acura nameplate topped this year’s list, which predicts the reliability of 2008 model year vehicles based on past performance.

Hummer and Land Rover were the least reliable. The top-rated domestic brand was Buick, which was 10th.

The ratings, which are based on surveys of approximately 1 million online and print subscribers to Consumer Reports magazine, are closely watched by automakers because of their influence on car buyers. This year’s survey was conducted in the spring and covered 1.3 million vehicles from the 1998 to 2007 model years.

Making it into the top 10 were Toyota Motor Corp.’s Lexus, Scion and Toyota brands, and Toyota had 17 vehicles on Consumer Reports’ list of the 39 most reliable models, far more than any other automaker.

But Consumer Reports said the storied brand “is showing cracks in its armor” and no longer will receive automatic recommendations from the magazine when it releases new or redesigned vehicles.

The magazine used to recommend Toyota without any reliability data based on past performance.

Consumer Reports said buyers had problems with the automatic transmission in the V6 version of the Toyota Camry sedan; the four-wheel-drive system in the V8 version of the Toyota Tundra pickup; and the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan.

“We believe Toyota is aware of its issues and is trying to fix problems quickly,” David Champion, the senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, said in a statement.

Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said the company is encouraged that its vehicles ranked highly.

He added that Toyota believes it’s fair not to give the automaker automatic recommendations.

“Frankly, we think that as we redouble our efforts around quality they may afford us that exception again in the future,” he said.

Consumer Reports’ Champion said Ford Motor Co.’s reliability is steadily and consistently improving.

Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models — or 93 percent — scored average or better in predicted reliability, compared with 67 percent of Chrysler LLC’s models and 49 percent of General Motors Corp.’s models.

The Lincoln Mark LT, a luxury pickup, was the only Ford vehicle on Consumer Reports’ list of the 44 least reliable vehicles. GM had 13 models on that list, while Chrysler had six and Toyota had one.

European brands including Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz have had dismal ratings in the past few years, and 17 of the models on Consumer Reports’ least-reliable list are from Europe, the magazine said.

But European makers scored better this year.

Audi’s A3, A4 and A6 sedans and BMW’s 3, 5 and 7 Series sedans all were average or better, while the Volvo S60 was rated above average after failing to get even an average rating two years ago.

Consumer Reports’ reliability issue is scheduled to hit newsstands Nov. 6. The magazine is published by the nonprofit Consumers Union, which is based in Yonkers, N.Y.

Most, least reliable vehicles
Worst: Dodge Caliber, Volkswagen Jetta.

Family car
Best: Toyota Prius, Honda Accord.
Worst: Chevrolet Impala, Volkswagen Passat.

Upscale/luxury car
Best: Lexus GS450h (hybrid), Acura TSX.
Worst: Cadillac STS, Mercedes-Benz CLS.

Wagon/minivan:
Best: Pontiac Vibe, Scion xB.
Worst: Chevrolet Uplander, Hyundai Entourage.

Small sport utility
Best: Honda Element, Mitsubishi Outlander.
Worst: Dodge Nitro, Jeep Wrangler (four-door).

Midsize sport utility
Best: Toyota Highlander, Honda Pilot.
Worst: Land Rover Range Rover, Land Rover Range Rover Sport.

Large sport utility
Best: Toyota Land Cruiser (no second pick).
Worst: Chevrolet Suburban 2500, GMC Yukon XL 2500.

Pickup truck
Best: Toyota Tundra (V8, two wheel drive), Toyota Tacoma (four-cylinder).
Worst: Cadillac Escalade EXT, Toyota Tundra (V8, four-wheel drive).




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Old 10-17-2007, 07:07 AM
  #247  
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Arrow Complete List

Toyota Slipping
Magazine won't automatically recommend redesigned Toyotas, citing below-average quality in new models. Ford improves dramatically.
By MSN Money staff

Consumer Reports magazine reported today that the quality of cars made by Toyota, long the benchmark for reliability among automotive brands, had slipped so much that the organization no longer will automatically recommend them.

Releasing the results of its 2007 annual Car Reliability Survey today in Detroit, the magazine said two high-profile models, the top-selling Camry V-6 and the four-wheel-drive Tundra pickup, both redesigned this year, scored below average. Consumer Reports won't recommend any model scoring below average to its readers.

Typically, Consumer Reports will recommend a vehicle only if it has at least one year of reliability data. New and redesigned Toyota models had been exempted from that standard because of the company's record. The magazine said today it no longer will recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design.

Now, only Honda and Subaru have that distinction. Despite its emerging problems, Toyota, which also makes Lexus and Scion brand cars, still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind Honda, which also makes Acuras, and Subaru. The top-ranked domestic brand is General Motors' Buick.

Ford scores big
For Ford, the news was positive. The magazine said 93% of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models scored average or better, allowing a "Recommended" designation.

"Ford continues to improve," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center. "The reliability of their cars has steadily improved over the years and is showing consistency." He added, "We believe Toyota is aware of its issues and is trying to fix problems quickly."

Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars. They and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 V6 pickup make up three of the only four domestic models on Consumer Reports' "Most Reliable" list. In addition, the magazine scored new-for-2007 SUVs such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX, as well as the freshened Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator, average or above.

Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models -- 20 of 44 -- on the magazine's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, six are from Chrysler and one is from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either. The Hyundai Entourage; Infiniti QX56; Mazda CX-7; Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest and Titan (4WD); and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.

Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or its Web site. The survey covered model years 1998 to 2007.

How makes compareRank Make % above avg.

Rank Make % above avg.

1 Honda 48
2 Acura 44
3 Scion 43
4 Subaru 38
5 Toyota 38
6 Lexus 34
7 Infiniti 31
8 Mitsubishi 31
9 Porsche 30
10 Buick 20
11 Mercury 18
12 Mini 17
13 Ford 16
14 Lincoln 14
15 Hyundai 12
16 Jaguar 10
17 Mazda 8
18 BMW 3
19 Volvo 2
20 Chrysler 1
21 Nissan 1
22 Audi -9
23 Kia -9
24 Saturn -13
25 Saab -14
26 Dodge -21
27 Suzuki -22
28 GMC -24
29 Jeep -26
30 Chevrolet -32
31 Volkswagen -40
32 Pontiac -42
33 Mercedes-Benz -57
34 Cadillac -68
35 Hummer -86
36 Land Rover -153
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:42 AM
  #248  
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Links please!

Need to forward this to my Audi-owning friend.


Edit: never mind, didn't notice the stealth link.
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:12 PM
  #249  
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Scion > Toyota > Lexus? Doesn't make sense.

The huge difference between Buick and Cadillac? Strange.

Readers should note it's just a prediction, based on past performance. Although it's not like predicting stock price, it's still extrapolating data. If you want to buy a new model without a history, it's not too useful.

I have a 528i ordered, hopefully it's more on the above average side...
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:17 PM
  #250  
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Upscale/luxury car
Best: Lexus GS450h (hybrid), Acura TSX.
Worst: Cadillac STS, Mercedes-Benz CLS.
Good car in an of itself but, Best Upscale/Luxury car?

....and after driving the GS450h last month, I can say: it is teh hotness.
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Old 10-18-2007, 06:43 PM
  #251  
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Lightbulb Toyota Responds

Toyota Admits V6 Flaw
Despite being knocked from the top spot in Consumer Reports' reliability survey, Toyota executives are pleased with the results. Overall, Toyota still placed first in 6 out of 8 reliability categories and represented 44% of the magazines most recommended vehicles.

However, Toyota's top brass was concerned that three of its vehicles were moved to the "not recommended" category — the Camry V6, Tundra V8 and Lexus GS AWD. “The bad news from our perspective is we never want to see vehicles on the ‘not recommend’ list,” Jim Lentz, executive vice president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. told Automotive News.

Lentz said he was not surprised that the Camry V6 was on the list as it had a transmission flaw that Toyota was aware of.
“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Lentz had no explanation for the other two vehicles making the "not recommended" list.


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Old 10-18-2007, 09:04 PM
  #252  
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I do not think Toyota needs to worry much as their products still rank higher in quality than just about every other brand. Not to mention that the VAST majority of Camrys sold are fairly trouble free 4 cylinder models.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:31 AM
  #253  
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'bout time Toyota got their hand pushed out of CR's checking account. Personally, I hate CR and would much rather listen to nails on a blackboard in surround sound that trust their ratings. It's ridiculous that they should automatically apply any rating to a car and that Toyota expects to jump right back into the sack with CR. Toyota is starting to take advantage of naive badge whores.
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Old 10-19-2007, 05:41 AM
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Cool Quote

Lentz said he was not surprised that the Camry V6 was on the list as it had a transmission flaw that Toyota was aware of. “We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said.
This quote really bothers me -- it sounds like they knew it was bad but released it anyways .... ?
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Old 10-19-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TSX69
This quote really bothers me -- it sounds like they knew it was bad but released it anyways .... ?

Sorta, if you remember the car was recalled pretty early (within months of it's introduction) and all the transmissions were replaced. I don't think they knew of the issue immediately; but they sure fixed it quick though.
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Old 10-19-2007, 04:33 PM
  #256  
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I think he meant that they knew about it early - after the release of the car.
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Old 10-20-2007, 01:20 AM
  #257  
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im happy...
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Old 10-22-2007, 04:12 PM
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Gyeahh!!!!!!!!! Honda/Acura was always #1 and #2 in my book. Cant go wrong with those cars!!!!
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:35 PM
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Lightbulb Tundra

What is really sad is that every article I have read just mentions Honda #1, Acura #2 in passing - the focus is almost entirely on Toyota/Lexus being 5th & 6th.

When it rains it pours: people are now complaining that the new Tundra is having transmission & tailgate issues.

Toyota Tundra Hit w/ 2 More Quality Issues
Last Tuesday the Toyota Tundra was kicked off the Consumer Reports "Recommended" list for achieving below average predicted reliability scores from its own owners. It appears, however, that the Tundra's week is about to get worse. With the help of Mike Levine from Pickuptruck.com, we're following two separate stories about Tundra quality issues that have surfaced recently. The first involves the Tundra's transmission, with at least ten owners at TundraSolutions.com reporting that their trannies experience rough shifts that make the truck feel like it's riding over rumble strips. The 'rumble strip' transmission issue has been acknowledged by Toyota North America and traced back to the torque converter not disengaging properly. Owners report having their transmissions replaced with new or remanufactured ones, though Toyota told Levine that going forward the automaker would only replace the torque converter itself. Toyota did not say, however, how many trucks are affected, just that the transmission problem is not a safety or design issue.

The second quality issue sprouted up this past weekend, also on TundraSolutions.com, and involves tailgates that have been failing or, in some cases, even falling off. The most common experience seems to be the tailgate itself forming cracks and the metal buckling when under load. One owner reported that his tailgate failed when loading an ATV into the bed for the very first time. The tailgate being such an integral part of owning a truck, members of TS have begun an online petition, which they hope will force Toyota to recognize the issue and do something about it. The petition has attracted 125 signatures so far. Levine from Pickuptruck.com has also asked Toyota about these potentially failing tailgates and is waiting for a response.

Yes, the Toyota Tundra has had a very rough week, but it's no more difficult than the time Tundra owners spend with trucks that don't work as advertised.



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Old 10-23-2007, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PortlandRL
'bout time Toyota got their hand pushed out of CR's checking account. Personally, I hate CR and would much rather listen to nails on a blackboard in surround sound that trust their ratings. It's ridiculous that they should automatically apply any rating to a car and that Toyota expects to jump right back into the sack with CR. Toyota is starting to take advantage of naive badge whores.
I agree with you. 100% I don't trust them at all. They don't know crap about cars,
and many thing they say are bad are not, and many thing they recommend are crap. Example: They hate Dyson vacuums but I did a back to back comparison with there top rated brand and the Dyson, Guess which one pick up more.


Originally Posted by SiGGy
Sorta, if you remember the car was recalled pretty early (within months of it's introduction) and all the transmissions were replaced. I don't think they knew of the issue immediately; but they sure fixed it quick though.

Originally Posted by y2kardell
Gyeahh!!!!!!!!! Honda/Acura was always #1 and #2 in my book. Cant go wrong with those cars!!!!
Ya Toyota did a much better job than honda (acura). Honda, Who just waited to see if the tranny would fail and then tell you its your fault, when every person you know with the same car is having the same problems. And when they finally take some responsibility , the replace it with the same exact Tranny, causing you to have to get yet another one. Then only after a class action lawsuit do they Officially admit there was a problem and just give you a band aid fix. ya thats a company thats # 1. That made me really happy.

By the way my cousins 3yr old accord's air compressor cracked causing a mini explosion under the car. and its just a couple of months out of warranty. guess who refuses to cover it. Ya thats a great and reliable car company.

After what happened to my cousin, my friends and myself. I have given up on honda now a Former Honda fan. That a shame because I really like the new accord coupe, and the new civics. They look really good.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:40 PM
  #261  
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Hmm and the Volvo s60 got rated better than the Acura TL what.
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Old 10-23-2007, 06:16 PM
  #262  
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How and the hell can people still be buying VW, I had a '91 GTI, I learned my lesson. VW has been in the worst for many, many years. I looked at the Passat (current gen) when it was released. I ran away very fast.
Most, least reliable vehicles
Worst: Dodge Caliber, Volkswagen Jetta
Volkswagen Passat (V6, AWD)* (-135%) <---off the chart much worse than avg
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:18 PM
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im surprised nissan is so far down its only around the national average..which is horrible..

so the car brands i would still buy in no particular order: lexus, acura, infiniti

maybe bmw since they are more reliable then nissan lol
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:52 PM
  #264  
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Buick been tearing it up in recent quality reports. if they could just build a car that's invigorating to younger buyers i'd maybe concider them. cause whoever they hired to raise their quality deserves a raise.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:16 PM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by F23A4
In the Family Car category the Milan/Fusion V6 ranked higher than my 07 AV6.


Toyota Prius
Honda Accord (4-cyl., 2007)
Ford Fusion (V6, AWD)*
Mercury Milan (V6, AWD)*
Honda Accord (V6, 2007)
Hyundai Sonata (4-cyl.)
Ford Fusion (4-cyl.)
Mercury Milan (4-cyl.)
Toyota Camry Hybrid*
Nissan Altima (4-cyl.)*
Ford Fusion (V6, FWD)
Mercury Milan (V6, FWD)
Subaru Legacy (4-cyl.)
Kia Optima*
Saturn Aura XE*
Buick LaCrosse
Toyota Camry (4-cyl.)*
Hyundai Sonata (V6)
Subaru Legacy (turbo)
Pontiac Grand Prix (V6)
Chevrolet Malibu (V6, 2007)
Mazda6 Sedan (4-cyl.) ** AVERAGE **
Chevrolet Malibu (4-cyl., 2007)
Nissan Altima (V6)*
Volvo S40/V50 (non-turbo)
Mazda6 Sedan (V6)
Chevrolet Impala (V6)
Volvo S40/V50 (turbo, AWD)*
Saturn Aura XR*
Toyota Camry (V6)*
Volvo S40/V50 (turbo, FWD)*
Pontiac G6
Volkswagen Passat (4-cyl.)
Volkswagen Passat (V6, FWD)*
Chevrolet Impala (V8)
Volkswagen Passat (V6, AWD)* (-135%) <---off the chart much worse than avg
It's funny though since Mazda 6 is the sister car of Fusion, yet it is only average.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:30 PM
  #266  
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Arrow Another Tundra Recall

Toyota Recalling 15,600 Tundra Pickups
DETROIT (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp said on Friday that it is recalling 15,600 Tundra pickup trucks in the United States because a rear propeller shaft may separate at the joint.

The recall involves 2007 model-year Tundra four-wheel-drive pickup trucks.

"There is a possibility that a joint in the rear propeller shaft may have been improperly heat treated, resulting in insufficient hardness," Toyota said in a statement.

This may cause a section of the rear propeller shaft to separate at the joint, it added.

No injuries or accidents have been connected to the recall.

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Old 12-15-2007, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
How and the hell can people still be buying VW, I had a '91 GTI, I learned my lesson. VW has been in the worst for many, many years. I looked at the Passat (current gen) when it was released. I ran away very fast.
My logic is, just as long as it's under warranty it's ok for me. Would NEVER touch a used VW though.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:13 AM
  #268  
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Again, this is "predicted reliability", not ACTUAL DATA
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:41 AM
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funny that Volkswagen consistently is on the bottom of all the lists, Man do I need to forward these to my retarded Volkswagen fanboy friend who's only response to Honda's being a vastly superior product is: "Honda's are like tampons, they're both for pussies."
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
"Honda's are like tampons, they're both for pussies."
OR the Jeremy Clarkson quote: When you buy a Honda, you end up with a Honda.
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:24 PM
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Unhappy CR Perception Report: Acura Does Not Do Well @ All

Toyota/Honda Tops Report

Consumer Reports car brand perceptions survey reveals the leaders in seven important categories

Top auto brands

Automakers spend billions of dollars to promote their vehicles and build brand awareness. Yet, marketing alone does not shape consumer perception without a clear connection to the vehicles in the showroom. In the latest Auto Pulse survey conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center, Toyota and Honda brands ranked first and second, respectively, by dominant margins over all others. Likewise, the vehicles from those brands have consistently performed well in our testing, often ranking among the best in their classes, and have been mostly at the top of our reliability ratings over the years.

This survey focused on how consumers perceive and rank car brands in seven crucial areas, including safety, quality, value, performance, environmental friendliness, design, and technological innovation. It also looks at which of those factors are most important to consumers when buying a vehicle.


BEST AND WORST IN BRAND PERCEPTION

The chart below shows an aggregate score reflecting a brand’s total perception level across the seven areas. Scores are rounded to the nearest percent. Keep in mind that these scores don’t reflect the qualities of the brand’s vehicles, only the strength of the overall brand in the eyes of car buyers. The top five brands in each area are ranked on the Top five in brand perception by category page.

Overall brand perception
BEST WORST
Brand Score Brand Score
Toyota 189 Buick 25
Honda 146 Mercury 22
Ford 112 Mitsubishi 21
Chevrolet 110 Audi 14
GMC 102 Acura 8



Other findings from the survey

* Among new-car shoppers, safety (63 percent) is the most important consideration, followed by quality (58 percent).

* Consumers consider friendliness to the environment (35 percent) to be more significant than styling (23 percent).

* The category “technology and innovation” (15 percent) scored as least important to car buyers.

* Toyota and Honda rank in the top five in six of the seven surveyed categories, with design/styling being the exception for each.

* Chevrolet and Ford are the only U.S. brands that rank in the top five in more than one category. Each makes the cut in three areas.

* Consumers overwhelmingly perceive Volvo as the leading safety brand. Its 77-percent score gives it a dominant lead over second-place Toyota’s 20 percent. But other automakers that are consistently on the cutting edge of safety technology—such as BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz—don’t even make it into the top five.

* Toyota (49 percent) and Honda (26 percent) have, by far, the strongest images for environmental friendliness. Their scores are significantly higher than third-place Ford (16 percent).


Read more findings at Top five in brand perception by category.


HOW THE SCORES WERE CALCULATED

To learn about consumers’ car brand perceptions, the Consumer Reports National Research Center conducted a random, nationwide telephone survey from Dec. 6-10, 2007, contacting 2,037 adults. The survey data was collected from the 1,720 adults whose households own at least one car.

Overall brand perception is an index calculated as the total number of times that the particular make was mentioned as an exemplar across all seven categories, divided by the total unaided mentions. This approach compensates for awareness level, ensuring every brand has an equal chance of leading a category, not just the best-selling or most well-known brands.

Category scores reflect the number of times that the particular make was mentioned as an exemplar of the particular attribute, again adjusted for awareness.



Top 5 by Category
Below, the categories are presented in the order of importance to new-car buyers.


1
SAFETY
Brand Percent
Volvo 77%
Toyota 21
Subaru 18
Ford 17
Honda 17


No other category is so unilaterally dominated by one brand. With a score of 77 percent, Volvo is clearly first in consumers’ minds when it comes to safety. Volvo developed a reputation for safety based on its many technical innovations and consistent marketing theme. Volvos were the first mass-production cars to offer a laminated windshield, three-point front seat belts, rear seat belts, child-proof door locks, antilock brakes, and side air bags. Similarly, current Volvos offer many of today’s most advanced safety systems, including blind-spot detection and collision warning systems. But in our testing, Volvos have often earned mediocre scores within their class. And responses from our latest reliability survey show that Volvo is only midpack in our predicted reliability ratings for new cars.

Most of the automotive world has caught up to Volvo in terms of safety. Honda, for example, stands out with the highest crash-test scores and consistently good accident avoidance performances at our track. Likewise, Mercedes-Benz has historically been on the forefront of automotive safety and typically performs well.

Subaru’s high rank might be attributed to the perceived benefits of all-wheel drive, which is standard in all of its vehicles. But many lower-trim Subarus don’t include electronic stability control, a highly recommended safety feature. Even Subarus with ESC have posted modest results at our track.


2
QUALITY
Brand Percent
Toyota 33%
Honda 24
Lexus 23
Mercedes-Benz 19
Chevrolet 17


Quality can be interpreted in many ways. But whether seen as reliability, interior fit and finish, or perhaps the design of controls and gauges, the top three brands in this area—Toyota, Honda, and Lexus—have consistently performed well in our testing and have mostly been reliable. In Consumer Reports’ latest Annual Car Reliability Survey, Honda ranked first in predicted reliability. But Toyota slipped from first place last year to fifth, due in part to below-average reliability for the Camry V6 and four-wheel-drive Tundra. Still, Toyota’s strong brand image earned it a top spot in this survey.

While the interior craftsmanship of Mercedes-Benz vehicles has consistently been top notch, the brand’s reliability has been poor for several years, with the brand placing 33rd of 36 in our latest rankings for predicted reliability. Similarly, the reliability of the Chevrolet brand is below average, ranking 30th. On the positive side, we have seen the interior quality of some GM vehicles improve in recent years. (Get reliability information on your favorite brands at ConsumerReports.org.)


3
VALUE
Brand Percent
Honda 30%
Saturn 24
Toyota 24
Kia 23
Ford 20


The term “value” can refer to what you get for your money, and to the expected trade-in value. On both counts, top-ranked Honda earns its place. Honda vehicles typically score well in our testing and are competitively priced and well equipped. They also score well in depreciation. Saturn’s second-place rank might speak to the appeal of its highly touted no-haggle pricing policy. In addition, Saturn’s newest models, including the Aura, Outlook and Vue, are well executed and generously outfitted. Kia’s fourth-place ranking is probably a reflection of its line of low-cost models with often generous amenities and its long 5-year/60,000-mile basic warranty. But predicted depreciation for some Kia models is poor.


4
PERFORMANCE
Brand Percent
BMW 28%
Porsche 25
Chevrolet 21
Toyota 20
Honda 20


It’s not surprising to see BMW and Porsche at the top of this category. The vehicles from both brands have consistently earned high ratings in performance in our testing. BMW has long been seen as the standard for sport sedans, and has emphasized that in advertising with its “ultimate driving machine” tagline. Similarly, Porsche has developed a reputation for building world-class sports cars. Chevrolet’s high performance ranking is probably a reflection of the venerable Corvette, and of its wide selection of V8-powered cars, trucks, and SUVs. Although not generally known for powerful or ultra-sporty cars, Toyota and Honda typically provide a good balance of power and efficiency throughout their product ranges. And they have earned kudos for such well-executed sports cars as the Honda S2000 and discontinued Toyota MR2 and Supra. (Research the performance of cars, SUVs, and trucks in Consumer Reports testing.)


5
ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY/GREEN
Brand Percent
Toyota 49%
Honda 26
Ford 16
Chevrolet 11
GMC 11


Green is how you define it, from fuel economy to emissions to "recyclability." But Toyota clearly has a green halo in consumer perception, resulting in a dominant first-place ranking in this area. Twice as many car-shoppers associate Toyota with being environmentally friendly as second-ranked Honda. That image is probably due to Toyota’s role as a pioneer in hybrid technology and its strong-selling Prius hybrid. The Prius is not only the most popular hybrid on the market, but it achieved the best real-world fuel economy—44 mpg—that we’ve recorded in any five-passenger vehicle. Toyota has also released hybrid versions of the Camry and Highlander SUV, and it has announced plans for more. On the other hand, Toyota also sells many V8-powered SUVs and trucks that are decidedly less environmentally friendly. Again, you must look at perception vs. reality.

Honda is another hybrid pioneer, having released the first hybrid in the U.S., the two-seat Insight, and hybrid versions of the Civic and Accord. Even more significant, Honda’s gasoline engines are among the most efficient on the market, often ranking among the best in class in our real-world fuel economy tests. Honda is also set to introduce a diesel for the North American market.

Although far behind Toyota and Honda in this ranking, Ford generated buzz when it released the Escape Hybrid, which was the first hybrid SUV. Ford could also benefit from William Clay Ford Jr.’s public focus on environmental issues. Rounding out the top five are Chevrolet and GMC, two brands that have been a part of GM’s heavy marketing of flex-fuel vehicles that can run on E85 ethanol. E85 produces cleaner emissions than gasoline, but our tests of a flex-fuel Chevrolet Tahoe showed that it got 27 percent lower fuel economy while running on E85 vs. gasoline. GM has also stepped up its hybrid efforts, with recently introduced Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Saturn Aura and Vue, plus others coming to market soon.


6
DESIGN/STYLE
Brand Percent
Mercedes-Benz 24%
Lexus 24
Cadillac 23
BMW 20
Jaguar 18


Luxury brands dominate the car-buyer’s awareness for design and styling, probably buoyed by the associated prestige of those marques. Mercedes-Benz and Lexus virtually tied in this area, with both holding a slim margin over Cadillac. Each of the top three has a distinctive design identity, ranging from Mercedes’ artful elegance to Lexus’ smooth simplicity, to Cadillac’s contemporary sharp-edged treatment. Jaguar made the cut here, probably fueled as much by its design heritage as its current product line. In general, car buyers in this survey rated styling low among purchase considerations, but it’s easy to underestimate the sales potential of head-turning styling.


7
TECHNOLOGY/INNOVATION
Brand Percent
Toyota 30%
Lexus 29
Honda 20
Cadillac 18
BMW 17


As in the green-car category, Toyota’s and Honda’s high brand-awareness scores for technology and innovation could reflect their efforts in getting the first hybrid vehicles on the road. Likewise, Lexus introduced the first luxury SUV hybrid—the RX400h—and the performance-oriented GS Hybrid. Lexus might have also earned points for the much-publicized self-parking system that was introduced last year in the top-of-the-line LS.

Cadillac’s high ranking could be a result of its tech-loaded models, as well as such heavily promoted technologies as the OnStar driver-assistance system, Northstar V8, StabiliTrak electronic stability control system, and MagneRide continuously variable suspension system.

BMW has consistently been a technological innovator, but with mixed results. Like Lexus and Cadillac, its cars are loaded with advanced electronic systems. But its efforts at reinventing the automotive control system, as exemplified by the complicated iDrive system, only added complexity and distraction to the driving experience.

Just missing a top-five spot was Mercedes-Benz, which fell just .3 percent behind BMW, before the scores were rounded. Like BMW, Mercedes has introduced a range of technological innovations to the auto market over the years, but has struggled lately with finding an integrated control system that is easy to use.


CONCLUSION

The Consumer Reports Car Brand Perceptions survey shows that a few brands rank high in consumer perception, with several proving to be leaders in more than one category. But sometimes, perception doesn’t equal reality. In many cases, consumers’ view does not accurately reflect the automaker’s recent track record. Clearly, it is well worth researching factors such as depreciation, reliability, safety test results, and test performance before making a purchase to ensure that you buy the best vehicle for your needs and budget.


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Old 01-08-2008, 06:45 PM
  #272  
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Nothing shocking as far as Acura is concerned.

Props to Caddy for making the list a few times!!
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:54 PM
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For one thing, most people lump Honda/Acura together.

I'm not surprised at all by the results, sounds about right
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:09 PM
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:20 AM
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x2

A lot of people my age especially don't really see Acura as a true luxury or sporty brand.... they think of Lexus/MB for the former, and BMW for the latter. No surprise at the results though
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:09 AM
  #276  
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WTF is Ford doing at #3 overall? And environmentally friendly? Ford's Escape Hybrid points should go to Toyota, it's their tech
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:33 AM
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A lot of non-car people don't even know about Acura, so I'm not surprised in the least. You don't see them advertising on tv like Honda and pretty much every other brand. IMO Acura advertises very little, and it hurts them. OTOH, Porche is very well known, so even though I hardly ever see them advertising, the lack of it doesn't hurt them.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:35 AM
  #278  
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Interestingly (at least to me), is that all those brands on the Best and Worst make decent cars. Audi has some real problems and Mitsu and Merc have perception issues to deal with. Mitsu could work on make their cars more reliable but in terms of how the car rags view them they are generally favorable.

Buick is up at the top of a very select list of the most reliable cars on the road. Once they fix the LaCrosse/Lucerne fiascos they should start climbing the list very rapidly. The Enclave is a good vehicle.

Acura's transmission issues aside suffers from being uberbland. These days just being decent and stylistically inoffensive isn't going to make people come check out your cars.

The new TSX will help. They need a new TL soon. We all agree they need to re-do the RL again (which is a shame because I think it's got potential). The MDX and RDX are attractive and unique but perhaps 15mpg in a small SUV is only something Porsche could pull off.

Mercury is the one on that list I'm actually concerned about ... The rest will be fine.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:39 AM
  #279  
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Agree on the comments. And Acura is really dumb for trying to think they are as highly praised as BMW/Audi/Merc. They should keep the image as sporty cheap performance cars as they did back in the early 90's with they're Legend cars.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Black Tire
Agree on the comments. And Acura is really dumb for trying to think they are as highly praised as BMW/Audi/Merc. They should keep the image as sporty cheap performance cars as they did back in the early 90's with they're Legend cars.
When was the Legend cheap?
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