ferizzo

At least the G35 and new TL will smoke all those cars and still have enough lux to boot (at least the new TL does).

Maximized

IRS wheel hops, it is a fact of life. Maybe the engineers didnt put stiff enough bushing in the rear end.

gavriil

Well, that's mostly because they are smaller/lighter with the same V6 engines that these larger/heavier cars use. The point of the test was a full size luxo sedan with 6 cylinder engines.

heyitsme

I don't agree, think its a weak way to make cadillac a winner, comparing it to cars out of its class. Yes it may be as long as those cars but its no 40k+ luxury sedan. 15.0 1/4mile is outstanding, umm no, maybe next to some slow ass 40k sedans sure.

The 300 v6 starts at 24k and they are comparing it to the 30'sk cts and 40k+ luxury sedans, please help us. What was the hemi broken for the test? What bullshit, sub 6.0s/14s is unacceptable for this comparo.

Habiib

Is that the same thing that the 300zx twin turbo suffered from?

charliemike

I don't think that's it. I think it's too much torque for the wheels they put on it.

I'm no engineer, but I think it's a matter of the tires catching the pavement and being broken loose by the tremendous torque. Rather than just doing a burnout where the tires just melt and never grab hold, the tires are actually getting traction and then the traction is broken by the excessive torque. This happens repeatedly during acceleration and then you get "axle hop."

titan

Well put. That sounds about right.

Maximized

I dont know how to technically explain it, but it is the IRS causing the wheel hop. I know that the Cobra guys who are big into drag racing swap out their IRS for the GT's solid axle. IRS is great for handling, but not the best for putting power to the ground.

gavriil

I dont understand. Are you saying that the CTS is not in the same category with the 530 and the A6? OK, the 300C is a stretch, but apart from that car, what is wrong with the comparo?

Also, what do you mean by "15.0 1/4mile is outstanding, umm no, maybe next to some slow ass 40k sedans sure." ?

These are luxo full size sedans with 6 cyl. engines. That's the market, where do you see others out there that would be much quicker?

charliemike

That's entirely possible. I recall reading something about that too. I think that may be why the 2005 Cobra doesn't have IRS.

ferizzo

The only reason the TL and G are not compared with these cars is the price (both are always compared to the A4/X-type/3 series/IS/etc) yet they are bigger cars. Both cars are more comparable to the lux sedans in this compare and quite honestly since we are talking 6 cyclinders I feel the TL and G should be compared and they would both be close to the top.

gavriil

You can tell about the interior size of these vehicles by the rear legroom and why they are of different categories as far as size. Pretty much all sedans have about the same room for front passengers, it's the rear that are suffering:


Rear Leg Room

G35 - TL - CTS - A6 - S-Type
33.6 in. - 34.9 in. - 36.2 in. - 37.3 in. - 37.7 in.

-----------

You can see that especially in the case of the A6 and S-Type, they are a lot rommier than the G and the TL.

DarkSithCL

iTrader: (1)

I love that front grill....

ferizzo

I can see that but I am sure that the G and TL are roomier than the 330, IS300, and A4, yet they are compared with these cars. This is irrelevant on my part. I guess my point was that I would take either the G or the TL over any of the cars mentioned.

1SICKLEX

So no magazine has gotten to match the 0-60 in 4.8 claim yet. 5.3 is 300C territory with a better interior and 15k cheaper.

gavriil

300C is more like 5.8 I think. Plus, dont forget: If the issue is with axle hop only, which it looksl like it is, then it's not much of a deal. Most of the time you're in motion while accelerating. So from 30-50 or 70-90 or whatever range, the CTSV is where it should be. ANd that's at current M5 levels.

ruski_RENAMED

I think Cobra is the only Mustang that has IRS.

heyitsme

Yes its wheel hop, morons working for the mags. Same thing I heard about the 911-> "With its water-cooled, flat-six-cylinder engine hung way out back, the Porsche has the majority of its weight over its rear wheels. On paper, this would seem ideal for drag racing. It's that traction thing again. It's more important even than horsepower. However, in the real world, this works against the 911.

All that mass fights the car's 296 hp for control of its 17-in. tires. The Pirelli P-Zeros don't know whether to grip the road or spin like man-made tornadoes. So they do both. The result: violent wheelhop. Controlling this and getting the Porsche off the line with any kind of momentum is up to the driver and his delicate use of the clutch. This is not the kind of thing Porsche recommends for long-term durability. But for low ET, the 911 needs to be launched with high revs and lots of clutch slippage.

But get it right and the Porsche is really quick. And fast. Its trap speed of 107.10 mph was one of the highest of the day. "

heyitsme

Yes, lets keep it simple, the CTS is not in the same class as these other cars no matter how they add it up. The 300c has the legroom and power of a 7series yet its not 70k comparo material, nor is the CTS ready for the 40k market. I'd probably buy the hemi c over the cts at this point.

As far as the 15.0 comment I think 2005 is going to bring a wakeup call to these "accepted" 15.+ s german luxury sedans.

deja vu

gavriil

Maybe you're keeping it too simple. You're not saying why is the CTS not part of this category (and not class) and which category is the CTS part of ? I know you dont agree, but you're not saying why.

I dont understand. Are you saying that the difference of the CTS and the rest in this category is as large as that of a 300C and a 7 series car? I disagree. You're exagurating here.

Again, you're talking with riddles almost. What are you referring to? I am not saying I disagree but elaborate.

Regardless of you elaborating though, my point remains. Where do you see other offerings that are way faster than this bunch TODAY? That's what the mag has to work with...with today's offerings. What tomorrow brings is irrelevant. No?

heyitsme

Why is the cts not part of the 40k luxury sedan comparo? Well 1st it doesn't have a 40k luxury interior and the 2005 sts is the 5-series competitor. 2nd, why would the cts's performance be exciting compared to these v6 40k cars? V6 40k luxury sedans are low powered where the recent trend of v6 30k luxury sedans is high power so its no surprise the g, tl or cts could put a hurting on a 40k v6 sedan. 3rd, price, its a 30k sedan, not a 40k one, mixing them is silly.

As far as the 300c comment, its has a direct relation to the cts in a respect. The cts is a larger car, yet its a 30k sedan. Should we compare it based on size or price? The 300c hemi has the room of a 7series, yet its in the 30k's, should we compare it to the 7 series based on size or the rest of the 30k cars? Should we comapre a 45k 2005 sts to a 7series now because cadillac has decided to increase its size? This is a rediculous trend, size doesn't mean anything compared to the class the car is actually in.

15.0 may be quick for a 40'sk v6 sedan, buts its not fast for a 30'sk sedan anymore. The bar in the 30k range has been raised, so taking a 30k car, the cts, into a 40k v6 comparo and getting excited over it beating these weak powered cars is rediculous.

gavriil

I disagree already.

See the beauty of the CTS is that it's got the size of the 5 series but it's priced as the 3 series. So one could include it in both comparos (other comparo being 3-series, G35, A4, TL, etc.)

Yes, the interior is probably the worst of the bunch excluding that of the 300C, but that does not mean it cant be compared to the A6.

If truly the quality of the interior is your poblem, then you're elluding that the CTS should not be compared with ANY luxo sedans. Like probably the 300C should not. Because you cant tell me that the 3 series has a much lower quality interior than the current 5-series. IN my opinion, the opposite is the case if anything, but that's not the point.

See what I am saying? If the interior issue makes the CTS not appropriate for this category, then why would it be more appropriate in a 3-series, A4, etc. comparo?

Finally, dont be so sure about the STS going against the 5-series, A6, etc. That's another subjective issue and part of the beauty of the way Cadillac is building their cars. Look at the dimensions of the CTS as compared to the CURRENT 5 series which is larger than the ex-5 series car which the CTS spent most of its time competing with (at least from a size and capacity perspective). It's almost identical and in some respects the CTS has more room/size.

Exterior

5 Series CTS

Length 190.6 in. 190.1 in.
Width 72.7 in. 70.6 in.
Height 58 in. 56.7 in.
Weight 3472 lbs. 3509 lbs.
Wheel Base 113.7 in. 113.4 in.
Ground Clearance Being Researched 5.9 in.

Interior

5 Series CTS

Front Headroom 37.7 in. 38.9 in.
Rear Headroom 37.9 in. 36.9 in.
Front Shoulder Room 57.3 in. 56.6 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 57.2 in. 56.2 in.
Front Hip Room Not Published 53.4 in.
Rear Hip Room Not Published 53.8 in.
Front Leg Room 41.5 in. 42.4 in.
Rear Leg Room 36 in. 36.2 in.
Maximum Luggage Capacity 14 cu.ft. 12.5 cu.ft.

To me when you come out with a new generation regular size sedan and the competitor's "ex" generation beats you in the rear legroom capacity, you did not try hard enough, or even failed. Unless of course you feel that your sedan already has enough rear leg room. And in this case, we cant truly and wholeheartedly say that about the 5 series. It could use more.

Point made, I believe.

The price of the CTS tested is $43,880. What 30K you speak of? Your argument is FOR the CTS in this case. So I guess Caddy can make a 40K sedan with the dimensions of the 5-series, A6, etc. competitors and make it the quickest on top of that. See the beauty of the CTS I speak of? Large enough outside and in, "low-priced", quickest of the bunch AND more fun to drive than all! What else do you want it to do in order to accept it as the leader? A better interior? OK, it's coming.


Again the price as tested is $44K almost. The S-Type is $49K and so is the price of the T6. ALso, the A6 starts from the high $30Ks and the test price was $43,970! Practically the same as that of the CTS. I dont see an argument here.

Again. It's not a 30K sedan. Caddy is playing the game the germans play. With the 3 series starting at 3 bucks and charging extra for the doors. Exagurating in order to make my point, which I know you know already. I think you got confused here because you think the CTS is a lot cheaper than it really is. Caddy with this new generation of cars will charge steeply and it already is. Look at the price of the XLR, it's almost not worth buying that thing. Charges steeply but clearly lower than the competition, in this case the German competition. And that's great!

Great question! See, that's the beauty of my "religion", called VALUE. Do you, or do you not?

IN my opinion, the only reason the 300 should not have been part of this comparo is because Chrysler is not a luxo brand name. Other than that, it's fine competing here. The tested price of the 300 by the way was $34,215.


No. We should not.


Why not? The 300C is not a luxo brand. Caddy and BMW are! If Caddy and BMW are direct competitors as brands, I can easily take capacities as the primary measurement to do a comparo. And then I can do another comparo taking price as the primary directive.

But again, you make it sound like the CTS costs $30K and the 5 series costing $54K, makes the comparo non-sense. The difference is significant (it's 10K), but not as much as you make it sound like it is. It's enough for the prospective buyer to think twice before jumping in the diva 5 series and say, I just bought a BMW and I am cool. GM priced the Caddys to make these people think twice and that's how it should be. When they clearly beat them in every other measure (in a few more years), there will be no reason for the price to be much cheaper. Of course at that point BMW will have to lower the price or give more car for that price. So in the end it's even.


So is the CTS NOT in the same class as the 5 series but it is in the 3 series class? Is that what you're saying? See above.

Again with the 30K CTS. And you know, even if it were 30K, I still dont see your point. Since it's got the same dimensions as the 5 and the A6, how does that make it be faster than them? It's got a 6 cyl. engine like all of them, it's got ONE less speed on the tranny than the 5 series does, it's HEAVIER than the 5 series...it wins and you say what you say...I just dont get it.

I understand it will be hard for most enthusiasts, let alone "Germanophyles" accept GM will be beating them in many differnt kinds of categories starting with this example in this comparo, but eventually we'll all be rooting for GM because the turnaround will be unprecedented. GM has more to fear from the Japs if anything.

heyitsme

Yup, disagree, the civic has 36inches of rear legroom, the 330i has 34.6in. Comparable, no.

Imo, interior is the most important thing in the v6 40k segment. Why? Cause power surely isn't important, these cars are underpowered and consumers buy them most. Just because a car may not be up to standards against the comp. in its class doesn't mean it should not be included, thats the company's fault, and it will be included whether it loses or not. Like preparing for a test, you're included whether you perform best or worst in the class, teachers don't cut breaks for the underprepared. You're all in the same class and you're all are tested on the same material.

Well considering cadillac pussed out of the euro market with the cts I don't see that as fair. Bmw competes on both fronts where smaller size is important, cadillac can't do that with the cts cause the europeans would laugh at the quality. Same with the sts, its better than most cadillacs, but not better than most of the competition. Everytime I see the block of wood around that nav screen in the sts I cringe, horrible execution.

2nd, why do cars continue to get bigger and bigger for fat ass americans, I don't see the goodness. I don't want every car to be a land yacht in five years, every car should not be fullsize with varying degrees of luxury.

The caddy loaded is 43k, the 530i loaded is 60k. This is the difference. 40k luxury sedans base out around 40k, loaded 40k sedans are well into the 50's. The cts is a 30k sedan loaded, the same as a bmw 330i loaded getting into the 40's.




Those are prices as tested, just because the cts was loaded to the hilt at 43k doesn't mean every car there was. I can go to carsdirect and get a jag s-type to 56k msrp without even trying. The a6 is a fwd car, like any other fwd car its not near the price of an equal rwd car.

Cadillac can charge whatever they want, whether the car is worth it is another story. The Japanese are the ones offering more for less, not cadillac.

This is like the 530i vs tl argument incartalk a few months ago, what makes the tl not worthly of 5 series land? What make the tl not part of this segment. What makes the tl a-spec less of a car the the audi a6?

Hows it faster? It has a 255hp engine vs 220's from audi and bmw. This comparo is bs, a weak ass luxury car from cadillac is winning a luxury comparo. How can a car win a luxury comparo without having the best luxury? yea it can't.

Like I said in my ridle me this ridle me that, 2005 will not stand for cars like the cts in the 40k segment, due to the big 3 from japan.

charliemike

The 1999 Cobras had it and it was a disaster.

I've read (IIRC) that the new Cobras will not have IRS.

However, I could be wrong

pimpscls

damn that car is a beast, and I am suprised by the handling

gavriil

2004 Cobras also have IRS.

Are you sue the next Cobra will not have IRS? Sounds weird not to have that.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

i read that the reason the cobra wont come out until 2006 or 2007 is because they are developing the IRS for the new Mustang.

all Cobras have an IRS.

SiGGy

What he has heard is both IRS and solid axle will be available.

Thats the *rumor* anyway...

gavriil

Super V! Spy shooters uncover dazzling, 600-hp CTS prototype - - By AUTOWEEK



Even the spy shooters were dumbfounded by this dazzler from Cadillac. Many dubbed it CTS-V Plus, only to retract that information, noting the presence of a hood scoop on a car with no superchargers or turbos in its future must mean it is merely a CTS test mule. Our sources beg to differ, however.

We’re told this beast is the forerunner for the maximum General Motors Performance Division Caddy, the CTS Super V. Available direct from GM for about $65,000, Super V features a 600-hp engine, carbon fiber hood and fenders, and that scoop for getting more cooling air in and around the engine bay.

Once GM engineers get done running the Nürburgring, they’ll get down to the business of building just 500 limited-edition Super Vs.

Chaptorial

Holy christ, 600hp from the factory?

Any estimates on what that thing will run?

Also is it gonna get the Getrag manual 5-speed?

DISRUPTV

WOW!!!


i would get one in a heartbeat if I had the change to...also, will they solve the wheel hop problem w/this one?

DISRUPTV

btw, if its 600hp, wouldnt it have a better power to weight raio than the new m5?...hmmm something to think abt

gavriil

1. Why surprised? We already know that the LS2 can go all the way to 725+ HP from the factory

2. Who knows, but high 3s is possible for the 60 I am sure.

3. I doubt we'll see a 5 speed in there. 6 speed manual yes. And at this point I would not be surprised if we saw GM show their ideas in the semi-automative/sequential tranny department for their offerings.

Ashburner

Crap... now I gotta sell my cars to get one

gavriil

Hehehehe....

gavriil

Now I gotta rethink the whole strategy from scratch

Since now we know HP and price (if rumors come true and the car makes it to production), GM is basically saying to BMW: "You thought that the new M5 with 100HP more than the CTS-V would be holding the crown in the category for a few years? How about if we answer back with 100HP more on top of your newest offering and price-match it?"

If true the above, this car will redefine the segment. Think about this, we know it can handle as is, in its CTSV form, if anything it will handle better in Super V trim, it's got SIX hundred HP, I am sure a few extra hi-tech goodies will show up (sequential tranny?, AWD?, something else cooler?), it probably will be lighter, if this car is priced at $65K, who can even come close?

An M5 CSL with 550 HP (the M6 version of the V10 engine) might be the only thing coming close and such a thing is 2 years away and it might not even make it in the USA. Plus it will probably cost $90K. So not close enough.

gavriil

Absolutely. The M5 aint light, like the CTSV is not either.

gavriil

Scalbert I love it when I see you here...

F23A4

Seems like the Caddy execs had a total complex about the CTS not being considered the world class sports sedan like the M5/RS6/E55.

With the new V10 M5 coming out, I'd be more impressed with the V if its at least as fast as the M5 in the twisty parts of Nürburgring, not just the straights. $.02.

gavriil

I would be willling to bet on my guess which would be for the Super V to be easily faster/quicker than the M5 at the N-Ring.

And if true, think about this. This will be the FIRST time ever, an M car will come out and not be a leader in its class in such an important measure (N-ring lap). This is huge if true.

Now think of this high level. Assume the above is true. What is really left for the M5 to brag about?

The styling is controversial, if not ugly-ish. The engine is great, but if you are outdone at launch, who cares? People would be talking about the leaders not you. The chasis is no longer a leader because the Super V will be at least par at that, the performance is not there because if you lose the lap at the N-Ring, people will talk about that leader not the M5. If BMW makes the mistake and uses the same power/electric steering as in the base 5er it will be OK at best and not THE best. ANd on top of all that, you cost a million! What's left there for the M5 to be anything but just another great super sedan?

Am I exaggerating? I dont think the above will sound like an exaggeration two years from now.