machination

No it didnt, the 5 series wasnt on there last year either.

That's an "interesting" position. First off, they sold 35k in 2004, which is more than the CHEAPER X3 (34,6) and only ~7500 less than its best year-not bad for a ride that's been around 5 years. Secondly, what you said sounds almost exactly like something RL haters would say. A lot of people don't think IT is worth more than 45k either.

chiawei

Acura isn't having problem moving sub $35k car. But it has never been able to move anything above that. This is not to say acura makes bad car. But it simply does not have leg to run at $50k with V6. My point is that at $50k, RL being the most expansive Acura sedan (i.e. the flag ship of the division), autospies is right to call it disappointing.

Free service to be discontinued? We can discuss that when that actually happens. Keep in mind, servicing BMW isn't that bad as it requires fewer maint schedule than Acura/Lexus. At 4 years, you only have one big service that will take about $1k out of your pocket, and 3 small ones of oil change that will set you back around $150 per pop. Which, if you have to pay for 1st 4 years, you probably looking at no more than $2k.

The biggest maint headache for BMW comes after the 4 years 50k miles. that one is a killer. So it really depends on how long you plan to keep the car.

Acura service isn't exactly cheap. Oil change service at 7500 miles cost me $100 in silicon valley, 15000 costed me close to $300, and 30k coste me close to $600. So, you may be looking at most $700 difference in 4 years. Not that much.

chiawei

1. Please show me a 4 door sedan in acura's lineup that is higher than RL. So if RL it's not flagship, than what is acura's flagship?

2. The problem is that all 4 cars will outperform the RL at similar prices. And all 4 has optional V8 with much more power and performance for just $5k more. Do you really think that a $50k buyer would not be able to come up with extra $5k for a V8? 20% of customer in this segment did.

3. BTW, E60 is coming out with AWD for 05. So this point is mute. In fact all of the competition now comes with optional AWD. Therefore there really is not advantage in traction on RL either.

4. this is an open public forum. And I used to own a 2000 TL until my wife decide that it should be totalled. Last time i check, this is a free country.

TLProspect

I don't think anyone is questioning your right to be here, more like, why do you want to be here at a site that is supportive of Acura and comprised of Acura owners, some that own the car you think to be one of the "biggest disappointments of last year". You'd be crazy not to think people are going to get defensive and annoyed after a while.

SH-AWD is hardly something to scoff at, it was a technical innovation named one of the most prominent of the year by Popular Science, an engineering magaznine and being hailed by pretty much every automotive review I have read. Not to mention the RL being on C&D's Top 10 in its 1st year, and most recently, 2nd in the $45K Motortrend Comparison- which brings me to my next question, with Motortrend pretty much saying that the RL outperformed (generally speaking) the BMW 530, A6, etc. how exactly is it outhandeled by its competition at the same price point? And since when would a GS outhandle the RL??? Oh yeah, your point about coming up with the extra cash for the V8, you're right, 20% of owners did. But 80% is more than an overwhelming majority to say the least. Honda should have developed a V8 for the RL and spent millions just to appease 20% of a small market? That doesn't make much sense.

biker

When buying a la carte (available for diplomats), the free maintanance service for BMW is an $800 option.

As I mentioned before, the only thing disappointing about the RL is the 50K sticker.

F23A4

I think chiawei's point is that Acura is an upscale nameplate where volume sales is on par with image; and in some cases image trumps volume.

Toyota and Nissan recognized this by having assorted V8 models in their image oriented brands Lexus (5 models) & Infiniti (4 models) although the vast majority of their sales originate from their 6 cylinder models. In their eyes (not to mention the demographic who buys them), image plays a big part in brand image. As such, being a flagship is much ado about image as it is performance. (Let me know if I'm off on this chiawei.)

So then this whole discussion begs the question: Is Acura a true upscale nameplate OR is Honda attempting to rewrite the definition of the upscale automaker??? If it's the latter, then it'll be a big obstacle to scale....moreso than the former (which could be as simple as incorporating a V8 into the lineup).

for sure. Just speculating.

justinjsw

I actually have no problem with what chiawei says...other than he likes to quote his facts, which are actually fiction as official facts. His numbers are mostly misquoted and misleading. And nor does like to be corrected.

Calling the RL a major disappointment is that person's prerogative. To each his own.

biker

The RL is the 80% solution - Acura chooses not to play in the other 20% of the market (the V8 engine market). If it brings in enough cash - who cares.

chiawei

Who's fact is misleading?

Please show me how well RL is doing?

Also, i still don't see you are providing any rebuttal on the other thread as well.

Come on we all know salesman is not that busy.

chiawei

This is the simple truth. If you want to have a true upscale division you must have at least a V8 to play with. Majority of Lexus's volume is on the V6 ES, RX, and L6 IS. But with the V8 Toyota has been able to expand its upper division much more faster than Acura and has established itself to be a presence in the up scale market. This is exactly what Infiniti is doing right now, leverage the V8 when the market and platform finally caught up.

Both Toyota/Nissan had V8 since 1989/1990, but did not massive expand the V8 model lineup until at least 9+ year later. It takes time for people to get used to upscale japanese division with a V8. But you got to begin somewhere. Honda is simply arrogant for not doing so.

Look how fast that toyota and infiniti went on their model expansion path into up scale market.

Lexus now has 2 car in the sub $35k range in IS/ES
It has more cars/SUV in the upscale range than ever before. GX,GS,LS,LX

Infiniti- barely has a car under $35k in G35, followed with M35/45, Q45, QX56.

Look at Acura- TSX,RSX are sub 30k. TL is sub $35k. It has one true car above that in RL, and a SUV MDX. (yes i know NSX is still there, but how many does it sell).

Both lexus/inifniti started with very limited cars choice. But with V8 and waiting for market to accept them. Both are now better positioned than Acura as a premium brand.

Look at what lexus had when it begins and early in life.
A V8 LS400, A 2.5V6 rebaded Camry

Inifniti- started with Q45, and a 4 banger G20, a old M30, a compact pickup based SUV in QX35. How well did it do at that time? Were infiniti considered a serious player back then.

But fast foward to 2005. Look at how potent and complete both Lexus/Infiniti's line has become. This is the truth. V8 provide a brand with the base image to build on and expand. Honda simply does not have that right now. And as refuse to do so.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

For the record, I must say that I like the new RL. Is it the groundbreaking car we were hoping for? No... but it blows away the old one. If I was going to get another Acura, it would probably be the RL. I'm still not totally hooked on the new TL styling, so I'd move up to the RL.

That said, we're looking to get a new car this year, and we're currently looking at the redesigned yet to be released A4, the A6, or the M35.... so Acura is not even in the picture.

Oh and BTW, for all of those arguing over sales numbers... if you took out the 3, 5, 6, 7, M and X series... BMW didn't sell one car. Think about it.......


hehe

F23A4

Chiawei, there was no QX35. But there was a Pathfinder-based QX4.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

I have subscribed to Popular Science for years. Do you? Did you buy the magazine? The SH-AWD was not the only winner. There were maybe 200 winners in that mag of new technology. And 99.9% of RL drivers won't even push the car to exploit the habits. So the point is moot.

What true luxury car maker doesn't have a V-8? Why are people so intent to sticking to the fact a V-8 is not needed? It is!

Funny, b/c it used to be AWD and RWD is not needed. Well guess what, Acura has AWD now. You had to eat your own words!

phile

So if you don't know how well the RL is doing, how can you sit there and argue about it?

And domn listed the Acura numbers in the other thread. The RL is not selling in huge numbers like the leader in this class, the Mercedes E320 sedan, but it is selling more than double the pace of the outgoing RL.

dom

Actually 3.75 times as many, but who's counting.

Would they sell even more with a V8? Sure. But to say Honda's decesion to place V6's in their premium sedans, and I quote "Failed miserably" just shows how uninformed you are.

At least have the sense to see some sales numbers before talking out of your ass.

machination

I dont get this obsession people around here have with V8 engines being a necessity in the luxury car world. Acura has survived longer without a V8 than some people on this forum have been ALIVE. With almost 200k cars moved in 2004, obviously that's not going to change anytime soon.

But whatever, who knows what the next few years will bring. Hell Volvo didnt have a V8 either until this year, and they dumped into a model that didnt even NEED it to sell well. Maybe Acura will follow their example.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

EXACTLY!! Now why can't some people understand that??

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

You're forgetting that Infiniti also got a nice infusion of cash from Renault a few years ago that Honda doesn't have. With cash on hand, completely redesigning a car is a much less contested task.

chiawei

you are correct. QX4 with a 3.5 V6 or a 3.3 V6 earlier in life. I can't recall what it was called. I know Qx35 was wrong. Deserves that

chiawei

I actually know the number. I just wanted some acura supporter to say it in their own word. That with a new RL acura is still no where compare to E320 nor 5 series for matter of fact.

Yes it is selling more than double of the outgoing RL. But like my sacarstic comment earlier, if you started with 1 penny and double to 2 penny, a whopping 200% higer. Does it means that you are doing well?

Moreover, you are looking at its 1st two month in the market, where the car is new and attaract attention. What happens a year from now?

You no longer had a 7+ year old GS to kick around? The M35/M45 is now established, the W211/E60 both are done with refreshening. How will this effect the RL?

phile

But the thing is, your analogy doesn't work. The RL is not a penny, it's a whopping 50K for one, as you have mentioned plenty of times before. That is quite a bit of dough to trivialize into an analogy comparing pennies. And thus, the definition of "doing well" has a far greater meaning when you're talking about 50K versus talking about 1 penny.

You're asking what happens a year from now? No one here is prescient. We don't know if it'll sell more or less in the coming year...so this aspect of the debate is really irrelevant. Until it happens, it's just a could/would debate that no one can settle.