machination

I love automotive clairvoyants. I remember when the TSX was released, Acura haters said it would be a flop. A year and a half later, good luck finding one. They said the TL would be too, that no one wanted all that power going to the wrong wheels. A year later, it's the best selling luxury car.

Face it, the RL was not MEANT to be a big seller. They want to sell twenty thousand a year, which is practically nothing. They shouldn't have any problem meeting that for the simple fact all those TL buyers have something desireable (finally) to buy when they're ready to move up. And, there will always be buyers who balk at the idea of spending MORE money for a German car (with questionable reliability) that offers less (or a comparable amount of) equipment.

chiawei

TSX is not a flop. But is it a runaway sucess? Acura sold a whopping 30365 in 2004.

Take out the MDX sales acura sold 138k unit in US. Which is still 60k unit less than BMW moved (minus X5 and X3).

TL has always been acura's best seller since generation 2, due to its value (cheap and lots of feature).

But take away TL's 78k in sales in 2004. The rest of acura line up generated an lousy figure of 60k unit.

Other than TL with excellent combination of feature and price. There really isn't anything else in Acura's lineup that would wow a potential customer.

RL is not going to be a big seller. However, i think Acura's goal to sell to sell 20k is too optomistic.

A 225 HP old 530i and E320 would both outrun it right now. Both W211 and E60 gets engine upgrade this year. The current GS is slow, but a new one with one extra gear and 25 more HP is around the corner.

More over for $5k more you can buy a V8 in the competition.

Like i said, i don't think autospies is bashing honda.

But honda/acura did miss the mark with both Odyssey and new RL.

I still find it odd that why would any more move from TL to an RL just to get AWD and 30 more HP for $17k more. This is not an attractive proposition. Had Acura placed RL at low 40k range, than is makes more sense. But at 50k large?

biker

I think you got it mostly right. One objective for the RL (like Infiniti is using the M for) is to get people used to paying 50K for an Acura. The only problem I see with the RL is that in real terms the price went up 10K from the previous model (an 04 RL could be had for 40K). When the M35 AWD starts showing up on dealer lots next month for $43K, that 50K will look steep. Other than the generic look and high price, there's nothing wrong with the RL. At 45K, Autopsies would not have called it disappointing.

Ken1997TL

TSX sales goal was 15,000 per year. Acura is doing over 30,000

As for the rest of your comments about the Sienna/Odyssey, taste is subjective but I'd say the two vans are tied in most respects. Its a matter of preferences. As for technical matters, the Sienna loses in that department.

MADCAT

I would never read/follow a magazine like this. Car and Driver is what the industry and regular people look to for the real info on whats bad to good.

Look at their 10 best list: Honda was the only manufacture to have more then 2 cars on that list.

Acura TSX
Acura RL
Honda Accord

machination

Which is only 15,000 MORE than they'd planned to. You do the math.
Take out the RX, the LX, and GX and Lexus drops below Acura and BMW, what's your point?
Take away the 3 series' 106k in sales, and BMW drops to 83k, which isn't much better, so again, your point?
Are speaking for yourself or car buyers everywhere?
Again, the clairvoyants said the same thing about the TSX's 15k goal. We'll see.
7.2 seconds outguns 6.7 huh?
And if everyone wanted a V8, there would be no other engine option.
If they'd placed it at the low $40k range it probably wouldn't have the world's best NAV, the Bose stereo, keyless start, voice recognition, etc as standard equipment. In short, it'd be a Japanese A6.

SeCsTaC

haha good post chination. also i love how everyone mentions that the M35 STARTS at 43k because thats a bare model w/o any options. Maybe Acura should just offer a bare ass RL without any options, and just include a bunch of options/packages cuz it seems a lot of people are getting fooled by the pricing =P. "Oh the RL's going down, its 50k while the M35 is only 43k!! And a M45 V8 is only 48k!!"

justinjsw

Your numbers are way off...Take away the MDX sales, Acura recorded 139,414 units sold. Removing the BMW X5/X3, BMW recorded 190,250 units. 190,250 - 139,414 = 50,836. You were ONLY off by 9,164 units...but who's counting here, right?

The cheapest BMW...the benchmarked 3 series is the bread and butter car for BMW...it accounted for 106,549 of the total 190,250 BMW cars sales for 2004.

Take away the 3 series...BMW car sales generated 83,701 units

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

I bought and most people buy Acuras because they are cheaper than the competiton and pretty loaded. They are not really better than the competition. Heck, they rarely try to fight the competition. Our TL is FWD where everyone else is RWD. The RL still only has a V-6, others have a V-8. There is no model above the RL.
Acura has the RSX, TSX and looks like RDX which are all cheap, under 30k. Nothing "wow' about that.

emperuman

I didnt buy an Honda/Acura to get the "wow" factor. I bought it for just one word. "VALUE". I had a civic, now a TSX, and hopefully the RDX. I have pretty much convinced myself that I will stay with the honda/acura family since it provides me something I look for in any commodity i buy, VALUE.

And yes, Acura is class leading in that measure.

chiawei

Which is still more rest of Acura line up. Period. Take away TL the bread and butter of Acura. Acura number did not looked good.

Acura sold 198919, MDX 59,905= 139,014 ( i don't know where you get the 414 from).

BMW sold 190290- 139,014=51276, yes, i was off. But consider i was simply estimating, don't think that is a huge problem.

HOWEVER, take away TL's nearly 77k sales away from Acura. The rest of line up generated a 62k unit in sales. Very impressive? Consider both RSX and TSX accounts more than 90% of the sales. I guess everything nearly everything that Acura has sold other than MDX are actually within the E46 price range.

My point still stands. There isn't anything attractive to premium brand buyer in the acura current lineup.

For RL to be a premium brand flagship, autospies is right to call it dissappointing. Because for one, it does not offer value (at 50k and 300HP on paper it got beaten in pretty much all performance category by a 5 year old 225 L6 from BMW).

Moreover, for $5k more, you could get a V8 on the competition. So what is the point of RL?

This is not a slam on the acura brand. It just truth to support auto spies's claim that RL being acura flag ship is simply not enough and short on effort by honda.

chiawei

this is the point i am trying to make.

Acura really dropped the ball on the RL. $50k large for a V6 and still gets spanked by an ancient L6 from BMW really is not a good value proposition. Moreover, competition is much much tougher.

M35/M45, GS300/GS430 (to be replaced soon by GS350/GS500), E350/E500, 530i/545i (which may become 530i/540i/550i soon BMW has already made new 4.0 V8 and 4.8 V8 in E65 this year).

You really have to take competition into perspective as to why autospies made the comment it did. Because no matter how you look at it, RL is not good buy at any means. May be Acura drops the price by $5 to $10k so that RL falls into the 525i range. But then again 525i is also getting Xi plus output upgrade, and might not be much slower than 300HP RL.

chiawei

On paper yes. But does VCM really works? it performs quiet well in test so that honda can post a good mpg rating. But take a look in odyclub.com and see what real world mpg new odyssey is getting, you will see that it's simply a myth.

There is no way that VCM can compensate for 10% extra vehicle weight. I find it more amazing to toyota that can create a van with bigger interior vol than Odyssey while maintain 10% weight advantage and perform as good if not better on structual crash test.

There is a lot of way to look into technical matters. VCM is one. But body structure and maintain less vehicle weight is also another matter. Also Sienna will be getting a hybrid version soon. The 3.3L V6 can be mated to hybrid, although the combination has not yet appeared on the sienna, to say Odyssey has technical advantage is too early.

chiawei

1. you still have not answered my question is 30k sales a whopping figure?

2. Yes it does, but keep in mind other than Z4 (which is miniscue), majority of those 83K sales are above 45k price range. In comparison, taking away TL 78k, TSX 30k, and RSX sales. How many over $35k car did Acura sold in 2004? The whole arguement is based on autospies claim that Acura RL is not a good flagship model. And the number proves that. So my point stands.

3. What does lexus has to do with this? Lexus moved more GS/LS than Acura did with RL (the only car (sans NSX) to list above $40k). Again, please stay on topic. Lexus did this with a GS that is over 7 years old, IS that is 5 years old. Lexus is revamping its product line as we speak. I fail to see what this has anything to do with RL being dissappointing.

?? RL did 7.2 0-60 in edmunds. While the 530i posted 6.7 . thank you very much

4. Then again, the reverse can be true. If no one wanted a V8, then there would not be V8 available. Logic goes both ways.

5. The problem, ACURA DID NOT PLACE IT AT $40k. IT PLACE THE RL AT $50k. Therefore Acura dropped the ball and which is what autospies says it did.

I fail to see whether any of the arguement above is wrong.

sauceman

Oh yeah, counting on soccer moms to validate tests made by professionnal drivers is very clever.

That's about the same debate I had with phile a while ago over IMA. You have those who say that those systems don't work, because they don't know how to drive or use those systems to their advantages. These folks come out and lash at Honda while the problem usually is mostly them.

Then you have those who can and do meet the numbers regularly, but they are often unaccounted for, because it is expected.

sauceman, who beat Transport Canada's number of 34mpg IMP by 12 more mpg...

chiawei

Please show me a case where any car magazine that has observed fuel consumption on consistent basis that meet or surpass EPA MPG rating. So you are now also accusing those profeissional driver not able to take advantage of systems.

EPA test MPG rating is not reflective of real world operation. Hence there has been talk to change the method.

No one is going to drive a car at constant 55 mph and maintain a constant slow acceleration to get maximum gas efficiency.

"Then you have those who can and do meet the numbers regularly, but they are often unaccounted for, because it is expected."???

how would you know? Unless you can documented it, then you can make that statement. The simple truth is that majority of owners will not get anywhere close to what EPA says. Simply no one is driving like EPA does on its rating, and in real road condition, you can't do that either.

sauceman

goldmemberer

The 545i constitutes 20% of 5 series sales in a good month, so it can safely be said that an overwhemling majority (80%) of the people that shop in that price range don't want a V8. Especially not at BMW prices. Honda's V8 is coming, I think Mugen's LegendMax concept is a very good indicator of that. And once it finds its way into the Acura lineup, it'll make for a good halo, but I doubt it will do for Honda what Ghosn has done for Nissan.

Conclusion:
V8. Big whoop.

chiawei

True, the V8 is not a huge part of E60 sales nor is A6 4.2 and E500. But it still exist for a reason, because there are still 20% of people out there.

I am not bashing acura. I am just echoing the comment made by autospies. In order for acura to move its brand up it needs more cars at higher end of the model scale not cars like TSX or RSX. RL with a V6 at $50k does not really make sense.

Some people buy car for their prestige. Especially after you just spend $50k to buy a upscale V6 acura really does not sit well in terms of public image. Is this a knock to the car itself, probably not. It takes more than hard number to sell a car. The problem with RL is that even the hard number does not match up well with less powerful german counter parts. Not only it loses out on the prestige side it also loses on the objective performance side.

If Acura stuffed a V8 along with a 6 speed automatic into a RL and out perform a 545i for 50K, than the RL is more than deserving of a a flag ship car.

Just take a look at the M45. Nissan is re-inventing itself so fast, that is't almost scary to see. Toyota is not sitting still either. We already knew a 3.5 V6 is out. We also know that a 5.0 new V8 is just around the corner. It's really hard not to conclude that RL is not a dissappointment after looking at competition.

I have been a very loyal honda owner through out the years. After many dissappointments through out the years and none of the car really lives up on the hard number (not just power, which is more than adequate, my beef is with the brakes- stock ones). Moreover, not really impressive honda quality. I have moved onto other brand.

As people age and income changes, a good car company should be able to keep on reinventing itself and keep loyalist from jumping ship. However, honda with its arrogance insist that no V8 is not necessary, are pushing some customers away.

I have never been a real fan of toyota initially because i never really liked the way the car handled. But all of the toyota/lexus i have owned have performed excellent in terms of quality. I have now become quiet a fan of toyota approach (focus on quality to make up on lackof performance).

None of my BMW/mercedes are perfect in terms of quality. But they make up in terms of performance so as an owner you learned to live with that and sacrifice quality for fun. But to me Acura took a middle of the road approach, not really an out performance oriented, while can't match toyota on quality. (I had more problems with honda than i ever did with my 3 BMW). At least for me, it appears that honda has lost its vision or focus.

May be in couple years, honda can refocus on what they want to become. We know that Toyota is emulating mercedes quiet fine, and Nissan is emulating BMW. But I really don't see where honda is going. You really can't be tailoring toward everybody and loses focuses, in the end you will always be stuck doing sub $40k cars with no way to bring up the brand.

I am just dissappointed with honda. Not to say they don't make good cars, just not as focus for me. The TL is a great value. For 30k, with 270HP V6 and excellent navi, nothing can be beat. But for people that has moved up, honda has lost customer on the upper end.

For me, i am no longer in my civic/accord mod days any more. I have simply out grown honda/acura's product porfolio. That's why it's really dissappointed to me that RL did not aim higher. My 1st car is a honda. I really like it 13 years ago. But times change, and honda simply stood still on the upper end and keep on insisting a V6 is enough.

goldmemberer

I had originally thought you were a tool, but that is obviously not the case. Everything there was valid and decently stated.

justinjsw

You are barking up the wrong tree buddy. Check your facts again. The YTD Honda sales chart is below...maybe from there you can find the missing 414 vehicles.

justinjsw

If you say its not than it not.

Lets not play this game. Acura has very limited models and very limited trims within the models to even try to boost overall sales figures.

[

justinjsw

Ok autospies and you win...Didn't realize Autospies became the premium source for automotive studies..

machination

Come on. You're not THAT stupid that you can't see 30k is a whopping figure compared to 15k.

You mentioned logic a few sentences down, so why dont you start using some: The RL was released mid-October, so it only had a chance to sell 2 full months in 2004. Those two month sales figures were higher than the 7 series, A8, and Q45, so using your 'logic' are those not good flagships either?

My point is if you want to play ifs and buts, do it with competing companies and see that they aren't selling that great either, again using your 'logic'.

Never mind the fact the 530 they tested was a manual.
But auto to auto, it's 6.7-RL, 7.2-530i, source Road & Track.

Then maybe you'll start using some soon.

Fact.Factpinion.
You see, there's a big difference between the two.

I'm sure you do.

machination

Ignoring the fact that there's no such thing as an 'L6', the 530 does not spank the RL. Period. The only way it's going to come close to the RL is using a sky-high clutch dump that very few buyers are going attempt.
But tell us, did BMW drop the ball when they priced the 225hp 530i mid-40's to start without a large number of features the RL has standard?

That is absolutely laughable. If the RL isn't a good buy, please point out something in its price range that is.

F23A4

I'm talking about similarly equipped models.

While not Lexus quality, the Odysseys interior is far from cheap feeling (which is what I think you mean). Perspective: Try the Nissan Quest for "cheapness".

As a legit minivan buyer (WHICH I AM), I want Leather/Sunroof for $30G even. Like most other minivan drivers I know, we couldnt give a damn about adjustable HIDs in a minivan. (BTW: I drove the RX330 with them and found that "bobbing" light pattern be irritating and distracting.) And should I decide that a Garmin/Best Buy version of Navi/DVD RSE is not up to snuff, then I know I can get Honda's version of the same for UNDER $35G. GUARANTEED: this wont be the case with Toyota. We've been shopping for minivans for the past 8 months....trust me on this. A non-Navi/RSE Touring model something that most minivan buyers will probably not get ONLY because it's prices are similar to an EX-L with Navi/RSE. While the Touring has its own set of bells & whistles, in the end it's just that IMHO. Again, I'm a minivan buyer whose currently on his second one and is shopping for a replacement.

Note Justin's post which states Honda's sales figures for Dec 2004. (Good post Justin. Thanks for the facts. )

For the Touring and LX models maybe but try getting an EX-L for $500 over inv. The Honda dealer will laugh at you and direct you to Nissan for a new Quest.

To answer this:
read this:
To wit, sporadic inadequacies does not mean we should throw out the EPA numbers altogether.

That's subjective. Like other Ody buyers, I (prospective buyer) dont see it that way. But again, I do agree that the Sienna has a definite RX330 feel to it, with 'what I perceive to be' better quality than the new Ody. All told though, it's hair splitting to me. Particularly when coming from a 2G Nissan Quest.


There's some truth to that. $50k range is one where buyers are somewhat image conscious and right now V8s are in vogue.

I think your confusing the Odyssey with the Quest. Any discounts given are heavy on the Touring models. (I do think that Honda may have overestimated the demand for Touring models as evidenced by their overproduction--based on dealer inventories in my area at least.)

justinjsw

Again the FACTS contradict your points...

YTD sales for the Sienna 159,119, Dec sales 12,423
YTD sales for the Ody 154,238, Dec sales 15,687

According to the numbers its about a push for the NEW Sienna vs the OLD Ody. The NEW Ody out sold the NEW Sienna in the all important head to head Dec showdown 15,687 to 12,423. Numbers don't lie...the rest about who is better than who are all subject to each person's opinions.

justinjsw

Since you are comparing the 04/05 Sienna to the 05 Ody your statement is again not a FACT. It can't be because nhtsa.gov has not yet tested the Sienna or the ODy yet...

And iihs.org has only tested the 04/05 Sienna. A best pick was given...so kudos to the Sienna.

Infamous425

anyways, the RL is still a disappointment to me.

justinjsw

As noted in some of the other posts...an opinion can differ from individual to individual. The RL being a disappointment to you is your opinion...and its understood.

But don't use an opinion and turn it into a fact. When that happens...one will usually get

chiawei

Keep in mind that Odyssey is brand new this year. For it not to outsell Sienna by a huge margin is a huge dissappointment.

Remeber, Odyssey had a huge sales number over sienna since 99. This advantage has really shrunk. That's why this past december Honda put Odyssey on its incentive program for the winter promotion.

Numbers don't lie. The problem is that honda was hoping that new Odyssey would be a hot seller and maintain a huge lead over sienna, which it did not. The funny thing is that Sienna sales did not drop by a significant amount when Odyssey was introduced. Looking at sales number you would find that Odyssey advantage is gone and dealers are sitting on stock, which is unheard of for 99-00 Odyssey. Not to mention discounts.

Honda did not have problem moving Odyssey at MSRP unil early 2003 when 04 sienna arrived. But from Odyclub.com, Honda dealers is already discounting Odyssey just two month after roll out.

BTW, Odyssey has been on sale since 9/22/04. and has full month of compeition since 10/04. Like I said, Odyssey is selling under honda's expectation. If you have looked at earlier 99-04 numbers, you will see that the launch has been an underwhelming.

If Odyssey has been selling like honda had hoped, there will be no discount what so ever. This is simple matter of supply and demand. I found that for a brand new car with 1.9% special financing to just outsell a 18 month old design is not what honda had hoped. The simple truth once the initial new car hype for Odyssey wears out, the number will probably be a wash.

During the time when new Sienna was out, Honda was discounting heavily on the 04 Odyssey to keep pace until 05 is out. The problem is I don't think honda ever thought that it would have to start discounting and extend speical financing term on a two month old design.

Moreover, Sienna is headed for a minor update for 06 with probably a new engine, a hybrid, more upgrade in interior (which is already an adv. for sienna to begin with). Therefore you will see a new car effect for sienna late this summer as you are seeing right now for Odyssey.

My point is straight forward. Had honda taken the time to develop a bigger, better quality interior, not have a lot of mistakes (such as no HID, stick PAX tires down customer's throat, less feature for the same price as toyota), then honda probably would not have see a such low advantage over sienna. Nor does it need to extend discounts and special financing.

You really have to wonder what honda will have to do when the new car hype dies and it competition now goes through its mid life facelift.

chiawei

No, you brought this up. The whole argument is to justify why autospies think RL is a disappointment. I am just showing you that take away bread and butter TL and lower end TSX/RSX. Acura really has nothing on the upper end to show for.

Which is exactly why autospies feels 50k RL is a dissappointment.

chiawei

What do you mean it's not a fact. Sienna has already taken the IIHS TEST and did well. I know Odyssey has not perform the test. But given the fact that honda will not release a worse performing product. It's almost certain that new Odyssey will probably earn a best pick as well.

So therefore my point is still valid that Sienna with lighter structure would perform just as good if not better (since we really do not know what Odyssey will do) than a heavier Odyssey (which is true).

I am already giving Odyssey benefit of the doubt that it would earn a best pick.

chiawei

So am I. I spend over a month trying to decide if i wanted to trade my 04 sienna limited for a Ody touring with navi and RES. I took trips out to honda dealer almost on daily basis and research the odyssey inside out.

Looking at hard numbers, Honda really did not have advantage.
For example, LX is about 2k cheaper than sienna LE with pkg 7( you need option pkg to get VSA, 3 row Airbag which is optional on Sienna but std across the range for honda). But that 2k gives one power sliding door, an upgraded stereo (which is not good), and alloys. For 2k, it's not really a bad deal.

Pricing for EX/EX-L vs XLE is almost is also similar. But XLE has more feature than EX. EX is missing a power lift gate and does not offer true 3 zone automatic temp control like XLE.

For touring vs limited. You are talking about a $700 difference in MSRP. But HID with height adjustment control, Laser cruise control, 3 row of sunshade std (optional on touring), 2 115V out let vs 1 is worth more than $700.

Moreover, this is not to mention that Sienna is bigger has better powertrain warranty (3/36 vs 5/60).

I agree that toyota option pkgs is confusing. But once you get clear on what you wanted. The advantage on the higher end goes to sienna simply due to more bang for the buck and better design. If you lived with both van for a while, you can find that sienna's control plus hvac are just more logically placed.

Odyssey has its advantage in better rear DVD screen and better nav interface (not function). A better steering response (but comes with harsher ride). However, i felt it has departed on what a minivan driver is looking for.

Sienna to me offers better interior, more safety feature (HID with heigt adjustment), bigger interior (especially 3rd row where sienna is 3" wider- and when my family goes out i need all 3 rows). I like sienna's ride much better, and think its better suited for passengers.

Had touring offered HID, I would be a touring owners today. I was willing to over look that Odyssey is narrower in the back, cheaper plastic inside (go play with the hvac buttons on the odyssey, the feel is rough and cheap), can't play DVD upfront in the navi screen. But I am not willing to let go of factory HID.


Compare to sienna it is cheap. The leather on the touring is not as good as the one on the sienna, nor are the plastic. For $39k price tag, it should have done better. If toyota can build a sienna limited and sell it for $39.5k with a much better equipment list , a lexus like quality interior, and offer a better warranty, then there should be no reason for honda not able to do that. While at SF autoshow last year, after one week of show the plus one seat after people were testing it, has its plastic all scratched up and chipped. While on the toyota stand, you really don't see that huge of wear on the sienna's interior despite similar traffic during autoshow. This is where each cars shows the quality of material on the inside.

We can compare to the lesser Quest. But then again, what is the point if you are benchmarking against a lesser design.

I was in your shoes 3 months ago. I was fed up with toyota old generation 3 navi on 04 sienna (which toyota upgraded with a much powerful 4th generation for 2005). I really had good experience with my ex TL's navi and was all set to trade my sienna in for Odyssey.

However, i don't think you have looked into both in great detail.

1. Sienna HID does not behave like RX330 HID with projectors. Sienna's HID is reflective hence does not have the effect you see on the RX330 with sharp cutoff.

2. Sienna HID comes with manual height adjustment control, which will allow the driver to see about 3x further down the road at highest setting. If you are driving at night with no ambient lights around, this is a huge plus. At highest setting Sienna's HId would light up at far as where your high beam would go.

3. Sorry, you have not checked pricing enough or simply did not bother to negotiate. There really isn't any price difference between the two. If you are looking at base EX-L, invoice $27,548.95 MSRP $30,810 vs XLE pkg 14invoice $29,271 MSRP $32,738You are looking at $1700 price difference from invoice. Both can be bought at invoice or slightly above right now ($500 or less).

Both can be had for under 30K. However, Sienna XLE comes with more equipment.

1. Power lift gate (missing from EX)
2. True tri-zone automatic tempreature control (can't control the rear temp from front on the Odyssey EX)
3. telescoping steering wheels
4. JBL upgraded stereo (same at Limited)
5. tire pressure monitor.
6. Power passenger seat.

So do you think really there is a difference now? Honda mirrored toyota pricing this time around. If you add feature by feature you will find, there really isn't an pricing advantage to be had on the Odyssey.

BTW, you can go to both siennaclub.org/odyclub.com. There are tons of people that has been able to get sienna under invoices. Recently limited with navi and res can be had around $36k. All it take is just time and patience to negotiate. Toyota tends to inflate their MSRP over invoice. XLE fully loaded lists for $38.5k but invoice is only $33.5k. Which means, if you take the time, you can get an XLE navi+RES for no more than $34k and for 2k more you can get all bell and whistle on the limited.

Like i said, go do some research and sit down and analyze the number. You will be amazed to see what you come up with.


Actually no. I have seen this pricing already here in the bayarea. Unless you talking about van with navi/RES in which supplies is a littel tight, and most likely you are looking at $1k to $1.5k over invoice. The base touring, EX, EX-L, LX can really be had for $500 over invoices. Also go check odyclub.com and take a look at recent pricing. You will be amazed at what is real world pricing.

As late as december, I was offered a desert rock touring with navi+res from capitol honda for $1000 over invoice as a year end speical (at time i have already decided against trading it).

Before i left on my month long vacation, last time i check there are tons of inventory in the bay area except for navi/res combination (which there is still stock of it, just not too many sitting on the lot with navi/res). I just found it to be typical that dealers tends not to like order car with navi and have it sit in stock, even though its quiet popular. Same with local toyota dealership, very few cars on the lot with navi. It can be ordered with discounts, just not too much stock.

I can careless which van you chooses. Everyone has their perference. Just like to shade some light on what I had gone through 3 months earlier.

F23A4

We'll agree to disagree here buddy.

Infamous425

yeah, thats why i said "to me". dont wanna start another argument

Stevens24

I personally don't care what autospies thinks because they are not a reputable news source. I do know that the RL knocked the vaunted 5 series off of C&Ds 10 best list. I know that Acura isn't having a problem selling the vehicle. I will be interested to see how the new 3 series sells once the new body is released and the price increased. Just because you price a car above 45k doesn't mean it is worth it or you would sell more X5s instead of the 30k annual they sell. And what will happen if the "free service " is discontinued as rumored. I have been with Acura for a number of years, All i care about is that I'm consistantly out of cars and that We have 2 of the top ten, the 2004 Consumer reports car of the year, And the best selling mid size luxory sedan. You are entitled to your opinion. And as a consumer are free to purchase what you want. But if by some strange chance Acura EVER outsells BMW in a year I hope you will give credeit where credit is due.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Well after what, near 10 years of , they finally got the RL 1/2 way right. Sad but the Acura flagship is the equivilent to a V-6 4-matic E320. Or the Audi V-6 A-6 with Quattro. Or the upcoming M35 AWD/GS 300 AWD. Yeah it has more HP. But less torque.
Many of us were looking for the RL to be a knock-out. A home-run. Not a double. The infiniti M35/45 is similar. It also had a piss poor predecessor. But Infintii did their HW and that car seems to be a home run.

Stevens24

Acura doesn't refer to the car as their flagship. you do. It does not now nor has it ever been competition for anything other than the GS300, E320,BMW 530 and M35. And it fits that slot quite nicely. You must be jealous or an idiot to keep coming back to a forum for a car you think sucks. I don't give a rip about the M35. Infiniti doesn't sell in my market and I doubt that will change with this car. Neither does BMW. Why??? because it SNOWS where I live.

F23A4

It really doesnt matter whether or not Acura labels the RL as their flagship sedan. The Buying Public is what matters. When looking at Caddy they're going to see the STS as the flagship. Likewise, when looking at the Acura lineup, they'll see the RL as the flagship.

As for it fitting into the GS300/E320/530/M35, I agree. It definitely undercuts the price on the competition by thousands (though I dont know the anticipated price of the new GS300).

Also I agree with you in that the RL definitely does NOT suck. It may not have the performance prowess of its V8 powered counterparts but I'm certain it does EVERYTHING else as good or better.

I cant speak for the Denver area but if the G35X (which I see all around the place) is any indicator, I imagine that the M35X will also have it's fair share of sales here in central NJ--where it does snow.