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Old 10-12-2004, 07:20 PM
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Well the B6 does use a V-8, which the new C55 now uses. The M3 still uses a I-6 but rumors of a V-8 are here....
All previous versions used a 6 of some kind.
Wow.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Well the B6 does use a V-8, which the new C55 now uses. The M3 still uses a I-6 but rumors of a V-8 are here....
All previous versions used a 6 of some kind.
Wow.
As far as 6's go, does BMW use anything other than the in-line configuration?
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
umm.. I would take an S4 over a C55...
I wouldn't.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
I wouldn't.
well, my point was, you write as if its a FACT that people WILL take a C55 over an S4... it's not.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Its really funny the difference in American car magazines and European ones.
We are just infactuated with POWER POWER POWER.
In Europe, its the WHOLE PACKAGE with handling first, power second.

.....
That's because of road conditions, "the terrain" and style of driving derived from related legal issues (code). They need their cars able to turn and handle there due to the above. Also, many countries tax according to engine displacement, so Europe knows they cant do anything about getting more power from larger engines. So they leave it to handling. They also need small on the outside but as much room as possible in the inside, that's why hatchbacks are best sellers there.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:27 PM
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oh yeah - kudos to Audi for offering the V8 S4 with a 6-speed manual...
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
The problem I have with Mercedes' approach to high-performance vehicles is, they are really only good for straight-line performance (except the SLR), and they are auto.
1. Why is that a problem?

2. Mercedes cars may not be champions as far as driving dynamics, but they are certainly no slouches out there. They can handle fine these days. I was blown away by that E500 they had at the Lexus event which I drove in a closed course. I was also blown away by the S430 that I drove on the streets for 15 minutes.

Again, Mercedes cars, with the above characteristics stated both by me and you, are a lot more suitable for American roads. If they are great in the straight line and good enough on the turning department and it's a given, I assume, that they have great ride characteristics, then that makes them an excellent choice for this country. What do I do with an Elise in the Mid-West? I can only enjoy it at the track. Even a Miata is overkill here.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:36 PM
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C&D stated that the S4 was a better daily driver and that the C55 rides rough. Sounds like what consumers like yourself want.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
ok im bored. So lets see......... notice how benz is almost ahead in power ratings even back in 2000 with the C43. Shit i NEVER see those. I just still dont think consumers care that much about HP ratings as we think. If they did then people would have been buying that c-class benz for awhile now.



2000 models
C43
Horsepower: 302 hp
Torque: 302 ft-lbs.

S4 (b5)
Horsepower: 250 hp
Torque: 258 ft-lbs.

e36 M3 (1999)
Horsepower: 240 hp
Torque: 236 ft-lbs.



2002 models
C32
Horsepower: 349 hp
Torque: 332 ft-lbs.

S4 (b5)
Horsepower: 250 hp
Torque: 258 ft-lbs.

M3 (e46)
Horsepower: 333 hp
Torque: 262 ft-lbs.



2005 models
C55
Horsepower: 362 hp
Torque: 376 ft-lbs.

S4 (b6)
Horsepower: 340 hp
Torque: 302 ft-lbs.

M3 (e46)
Horsepower: 333 hp
Torque: 262 ft-lbs.


See a trend here
In Europe Mercedes was always lacking power and in the past 10 years they many times lose on power comparos.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
C&D stated that the S4 was a better daily driver and that the C55 rides rough. Sounds like what consumers like yourself want.
CD stating the above does not mean that Mercedes cars dont have very good ride characteristics, which is the point I made.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
well, my point was, you write as if its a FACT that people WILL take a C55 over an S4... it's not.
Certainly there are facts somewhere. I am talking about sales comparos in this category. Although I dont have them, I am guessing the C-AMG cars have done better than the S cars throughout the years. Are you saying that's not the case?

Also, I never said or meant that people will take a C55 over an S4. I said most people would. Even keeping in mind that the AMG cars are more expensive than the S cars.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
As far as 6's go, does BMW use anything other than the in-line configuration?
No.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
...Also, I never said or meant that people will take a C55 over an S4. I said most people would.
I must read your writing differently than you intend it to be read, then... To me, this is quite a strong statement that borders on being presented as a bonafide fact:

Originally Posted by gavriil
The market would buy the C55 before any of these.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
I must read your writing differently than you intend it to be read, then... To me, this is quite a strong statement that borders on being presented as a bonafide fact:




Right.

The market would buy a C55 before any of these means there would be a strong preference on the C55 as compared to the other two, which means the C55 would sell better.

I may be totally wrong on the sales facts. I have not seen them though I am guessing that AMG cars have done better than S cars.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:05 PM
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ok. I don't know about the sales facts either - but it may also just be that MB is a more popular (read: preferred) brand than Audi. That is, generally speaking, i.e. not model-specific.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:07 PM
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ok. I don't know about the sales facts either - but it may also just be that MB is a more popular (read: preferred) brand than Audi. That is, generally speaking, i.e. not model-specific.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Certainly there are facts somewhere. I am talking about sales comparos in this category. Although I dont have them, I am guessing the C-AMG cars have done better than the S cars throughout the years. Are you saying that's not the case?

Also, I never said or meant that people will take a C55 over an S4. I said most people would. Even keeping in mind that the AMG cars are more expensive than the S cars.


OOOO I dont know about that sir. I know i dont have the sales sheet anywhere from the past years but like i said eariler, if you look on the road you see many more S4s (any year) than you do any c-class AMG.

Granted i dont see many B6 S4s, but there are LOTS of b5 S4s out ther compared to the C32 or even the C43.

Why do i sound like a broken record
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
ok. I don't know about the sales facts either - but it may also just be that MB is a more popular (read: preferred) brand than Audi. That is, generally speaking, i.e. not model-specific.
That may be a factor also but I think AMG has done a better job overall making and marketing their cars than Audi's S line has. There are a lot more AMG car offerings out there which helps sales.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:10 PM
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How well is the CTS-V selling? I been seeing a few around lately. Even though they might have been just CTS with a mesh grill
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
That may be a factor also but I think AMG has done a better job overall making and marketing their cars than Audi's S line has. .

thats a fact.
But the GTO has great commericals, doesnt mean I want one.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:17 PM
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The funny thing is out the 3, the M3 still would get my $$$$$.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:19 PM
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word.

<--- bmw sack rider
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
thats a fact.
But the GTO has great commericals, doesnt mean I want one.
Marketing a car is not all about commercials.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
The funny thing is out the 3, the M3 still would get my $$$$$.
The M3 was not part of the 3 tested.
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Old 10-13-2004, 01:29 AM
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After a while more HP makes little difference unless you visit a track IMO. Highways almost everywhere (except Germany) are speed limited at less than 80 mph and most drivers remain under a 100mph. Plus you cant really open up engines at stoplight races. So other than bragging rights, there is little that seperates a 350HP car from a 500HP one in the real world. At 600HP MB appears to be reaching the upperbounds of safe power(unless everyone thinks of a tank like Bentley when they envision their ultimate sports sedan). Couple that with most of Europe's lack of interest in high powered cars partly because of gas prices and it seems like a war that is fast approaching an upper limit or in other words death (at least at the M/AMG/RS level). Audi probably realizes all this and is seeking an alternate path...good for them!

The previous M5 and the current one are good examples. 0-60 in 4.95s Vs 4.7s.....does it really make a difference to a driver not operating on a track? Its time for the sport sedan war to become multi-dimensional.
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:02 AM
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I mostly agree about the little or no difference between a 350HP and 500HP cars in the real world.
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:41 AM
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the difference between america and europe is that americans prefer the straight line speed to a good handling car. this is how the german automakers are able to keep waging this war, people will buy the cars. i think its awesome that the car makers are able to do this, but it will soon reach its uppermost point, when and how many horsepower later, i dont care, i just want to see the war continue.
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Old 10-13-2004, 05:29 PM
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I don't see the point anymore. Even to own a cl65, it would be such a waste of an engine due to the fact you can't even use that power on most us streets.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
I mostly agree about the little or no difference between a 350HP and 500HP cars in the real world.
if you don't go past ~40 mph, yes...
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Old 10-13-2004, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by heyitsme
I don't see the point anymore. Even to own a cl65, it would be such a waste of an engine due to the fact you can't even use that power on most us streets.
You people kill me. How can you guys call yourselves car enthusiast and complain about too much horsepower??
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Black CL-S 4-Life
You people kill me. How can you guys call yourselves car enthusiast and complain about too much horsepower??
BECAUSE IT IS NOT USEABLE!!!! After awhile, it's just bragging rights. Or you need so many electronic gizmos to drive the car, it's not even fun.

And after riding in some 800hp Supras and 600hp ISs, that shit is just scary..
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Old 10-14-2004, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Black CL-S 4-Life
You people kill me. How can you guys call yourselves car enthusiast and complain about too much horsepower??
I agree with Lex over here, after a point, what the hell will you do with that much power?

But Black CL-S has the same point that I made before. Engines are getting more and more sophisticated, the technology is advancing and we now have the capability of purchasing a 300 HP RWD vehicle for $25k (Stang GT). Power for the masses ain't necessarily a bad thing, although I can already see it turn ugly.

I would personally not want to own a vehicle with over 400hp. Once I got my car to that mark, I'd work solely on the handling & comfort.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:03 AM
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You have no need for 350hp on the street, either. You'd better just get a 160hp Chevy Lumina or something and drive that around, I mean thats all you really need. If you want some luxury, get a 323. Since you're not going to be going faster than 55 or 65, that's all you will need.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:04 AM
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You have no need for 350hp on the street, either. You'd better just get a 160hp Chevy Lumina or something and drive that around, I mean thats all you really need. If you want some luxury, get a 323. Since you're not going to be going faster than 55 or 65, that's all you will need.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by srika
if you don't go past ~40 mph, yes...
ANd that's why I said "mostly agree"
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by goldmemberer
Engines are getting more and more sophisticated, the technology is advancing and we now have the capability of purchasing a 300 HP RWD vehicle for $25k (Stang GT). Power for the masses ain't necessarily a bad thing, although I can already see it turn ugly.
And a 400HP one for $35K (05 GTO)
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
ANd that's why I said "mostly agree"
there's a lot of things I "mostly agree" on too, then.
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Old 10-14-2004, 05:53 PM
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from what i gather, doesnt sound like audi is going to start going "slow"

they've got the B6/B7 available in 170hp, 250hp, 340hp, and 450hp in the B7 RS4
their A6 ranges from 250hp to 450hp


if they are saying they wont continue to offer more power than AMG/M then...i guess they will be staying in the 450hp range...which imo, is good enough, as long as they actually do put the efforts they used to put into engines...into driving dynamics and such.
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:10 PM
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I think it just means they aren't gonna go into the 500 and 600hp+ ranges like MB and BMW... damn them for teasing us about possibly dropping the Gallardo's V10 into the next RS6 though...
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
there's a lot of things I "mostly agree" on too, then.
Gee, you dont let anyone get away with anything, do you?
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