EmuMessenger

With that in mind, I'll keep my fingers crossed that Acura sees this as an important feature and does what ever it takes to get it into the new TL.

need4spd_RENAMED

Sorry, I just do not see it the same, there is a distinct upper dark area in the prototype wheel that is not seen as a detail line on the production wheel.

PokeyD16Z

That would be a shadow from the angle of the light and the way the front wheel is turned. If the wheels were open spoke, you would not see gray on the spokes...you'd see black. It would also be a uniform black, rather than the random gray we see in the pictures....and it would be the same shade on both wheels, front and back. You can't look at the production wheels the same way....they were taken in different lighting. The wheels on the prototype are the same as the production AND an evolution of the wheels on the Concept.

weeeg

I'm glad you mentioned these things, and that you think some combination of things *are* worth an extra $8000. The new Accord and the new TL are both really the same car. I kind of see the TL as an option package for the Accord. Lots of people don't think those things are worth the extra $$$ and they buy the Accord. Others, like you and I, think they are worth the extra money. I'd be thrilled if Acura would offer even more options for the car, such as adaptive cruise control and head-up display and rearview camera and harddrive based MP3 player. People who don't want any of that stuff don't have to pay for it. People who do want that stuff will gladly pay (through the nose) for it. That way, everyone is happy. Currently customers have to turn to non-Honda brands to get that stuff. Such a pity.

The Mercedes C-Class is making a lot of money for Mercedes, even though it is a crappy little car. But look, the 2003 Mercedes-Benz C-Class starts at $25,670 but climbs to $57,585 when fully loaded. Wow, over double the starting price. I think that's fantastic, everybody can get just what they want. I wish Acura would dump this whole one-option mentality (with Nav or without Nav) and start offering a nice list of options. Just keep the starting price low, and build a lot of profit into a bunch of pricey options.

acura_driver

One of the things that I like about Acura is that they include many features as standard equipment, and don't make them options. I hope that does not change. When I option out a C320 Sport or 330i they way I'd like them it adds a lot to the base price, plus they end up being a special order vehicle.

-r

SPUDMTN

Well, one-option mentality saves Honda a BUNCH of money, I'm sure. Giving more options (and making special orders available) will only drive their production prices up. Acura seems to be doing quite well without offering different options--why mess with success?

Would it be nice to see Honda/Acura offer different options (or at least packages) that included way more little goodies? Sure. I just don't see them starting that real soon. It could possibly happen in the future...anything is possible. Having different options just doesn't fit Honda/Acura's simplisitic style that we see today.


SPUDMTN

BTW--Another future TL thread? AHHHH Can we combine this thread w/ another TL one?

RJC RSX

Plus reviewers get to say, "And this baby comes fully loaded, 8K less than a 330i by the time you add options. In fact, the only option available is navigation..."

EmuMessenger

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Skull One
Funny that you should ask that. I asked the same question and test drove a '03 Accord V6 (fully loaded) and then a '03 Acura TL and TL Type S yesterday.

Things I hated about the Accord compared to the TL.
Sound system.
Road noise.
Lack of power.
Lack of sport shifting for the automatic.
Passenger seat had only 2 adjustments.
Over all interior quailty was cheaper looking.

Things I hated about the TL compared to the Accord.
Navigation system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have both a 2003 EX-V6-Navi and TLS-Navi and I have to dispute some of your findings.

The Accord sound system is far better than the TL.
Road noise - Comparable
Sport Shift - TLS
Passenger Seat - Both have four way power adjustable.
IMO, the interior on the Accord is much nicer than the TLS

Not mentioned, in favor of the TL

Xenon headlights
Memory seats
Heated mirrors.

Anyone else here own both and have an opinion?

weeeg

Pricing for the 2004 TL has not been released, so I was just guessing. If I was off by $1000 or so it really doesn't change the intent of the question. People were suggesting that option#1 + option#2 + option#3 wasn't worth $8K and Acura shouldn't offer those features, but I think that for many people maybe it is worth it and Acura should make those options available to those of us who are willing to pay for them. I was just trying to show that some people are willing to spend more on their cars, even if the car is only marginally better. Honda/Acura is missing out on a lot of profit by ignoring people like me. I'd spend over $50K on the TL if only they'd let me.

EmuMessenger

Fair enough. I think we are in the same boat.

I gladly would pay a premium for some little things like smart key, ventilated seats, power tilt/telescoping wheel, etc...

SPUDMTN

There's a reason behind everything. Honda and Acura know what they're doing when they don't offer options (or packages w/ major options). Making options available for the consumer is sure to drive up production costs and probably wouldn't even be worth it, unless Acura was going to sell hoards of TLs. Acura's goal is to sell their products "fully loaded" and are smart for doing that. Less variations available = less production costs. Chances are, the increased cost (for Honda/Acura) would not even be worth it for such a select group of customers--"people like you".

Are you sure that you don't want a German car? They have TONS of options available...

SPUDMTN

VtecMW

weeeg

Mercedes is very profitable, as is BMW. They both have a giant laundry list of options available for their cars. With your logic the TL-S would never have existed, yet I'm sure Honda made money on it.

As far as wanting a German car... I really don't care which country a car is designed in, tested in, built in, etc...

I'm old and I've owned a lot of cars. I can pretty much afford any car I want (although I'd never spend over $100K on a single vehicle). For personal reasons I'd rather not get into, I need a good navigation system that my passenger can mess with while the vehicle is in motion. Back in 2000 I bought a brand new Acura TL. The only reason I bought the 2000 TL was because at the time it was the only car that really fit the bill as far as the Nav system goes. I've owned a lot of cars, but I've got to admit that the 2000 TL has been in the shop more than any other car I've owned over the last 20 years (only my '84 Corvette was worse), and it has left me stranded more than any other car I've owned in my entire life. It's had several busted transmissions (weird for a car that has such an anemic torque curve), cruise control problems, airbag problems, seatbelt problems, sunroof problems, rattling problems, instrument cluster problems, touchscreen problems. I swore to all my friends that I'd never buy another Acura for the next 10 years, and even though the car wasn't even a year old yet, I swore that I'd sell it the minute I found a car that had a better Nav system. I've been test driving every Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Caddy, Infiniti, Lexus ever since. For the past four years I've still not found a suitable replacement (the 2003 Accord escaped my notice). Now, finally, I'm just giving up and caving in and buying a 2004 TL (even though it is another Acura product) simply because it has a better Nav system. Price is not an object, nor is country of origin.

Skyhawk

Watch it there; you're on an Acura forum here.

Your negative Acura experience will simply be deemed a statistical outlier, as I suppose my trouble free Audi A4 ownership will be deemed also.

SPUDMTN

Mercedes and BMW have been doing it forever...besides that, they sell WAY more cars. Here are statistics for Acura, BMW, and Mercedes' sales in the month of May.

BMW - 22,455
Mercedes - 19,167
Acura - 16,495

So...using these numbers to roughly estimate how many cars are sold in a year, we find this:

BMW - About 264,000
Mercedes - About 228,000
Acura - 192,000

Now, remember that BMW and Mercedes are sold in practically every country around the globe. The numbers I've posted would be just for the US (btw, remember that they're a rough estimate) Acura only sells their cars in two markets. So, naturally, I think that BMW and Mercedes can much more easily swallow the costs if they sell more cars in the US than Acura AND have additional sales across the globe (which I do not have number for, un-fortunately)

As for the TL-S...I really wouldn't consider that an "option". It's almost like MBZ's C240 and C320 or BMW's 325i and 330i. But then again, following my logic, that would probably cost them even more. SHOOT!

Anyway, if none of this really sounds logical, I guess I can always rely on the fact that "no options" is the way Honda and Acura do things It's a Honda trademark, if you will.

Also--don't get me wrong...it would be nice to see options. I just don't think Acura or Honda will do it for quite a while (if ever).


SPUDMTN

Skyhawk

Can someone please tell me what is wrong with "RS/LS/GS", etc., designations on various equipment levels/ trim packages?

SPUDMTN

Example, you say:

I drive an Acura TSX-RS

or...

I drive an Acura MDX-LS-w/ Touring Package and RES

I guess since they changed to alphanumeric names, a model designation like RS/LS/GS would kind of be over kill...that's just my opinion. Besides that it doesn't really follow the "luxury car naming rules"


SPUDMTN

princed

I too am staying with Acura and the TL b/c of the navi. Just curious, though, what makes Honda's navigation system better than the others you mentioned (I believe Infiniti and Lexus offer voice-activated touch screen navigation systems on their upper level models)? I only ask because I haven't had a chance to personally test the other systems you mentioned...

Also, if you can wait 6 months or so, you might like the RL a bit better.

weeeg

Yep, I've been wondering about the 2005 RL, but I've been waiting for 4 years already - my spirit is broken - and I just can't wait any longer. If the RL offers any feature that I want that the TL doesn't have then I'll just dump the TL when the RL comes out. It's only money and life is short (becomes more and more true as you get older).

As for your Navigation questions:
Yes, both Lexus and Infiniti are voice activated.
Lexus is touchscreen only.
Infiniti is joystick only.
There is no excuse for how pathetic the yellow pages database is in the Lexus and Infiniti systems. Try to look up any of your favorite businesses/stores/food places. There's a 90% chance that it won't be listed. Also, you can't look stuff up by phone number in the Lexus (but that will be added in the 2004 models). Also, you can't do ANY FUNCTION while the vehicle is in motion. Even your passenger can't play with the system while the vehicle is in motion! Also, you can't tell it to display all nearby restaurants sorted by distance. In fact, you can't even just tell it to display all nearby restaurants at all.

stlgasman

Would you get your TL with navigation even if you don't really need it for directions? I drive the same place everyday.

EmuMessenger

I would get navigation again even if I was never going to leave my city. The Honda system is just great.

I had it in a 99 TL and now have it in both an Accord EX-V6 and TLS.

Super system and the Accord system makes my TLS system look like Volvo's or Infiniti's.

Skyhawk

My point here is twofold:
1) these "alphanumeric names Acura uses -- particularly the "*L" names -- are exceedingly :ghey:... they reek of `wannabe'". (Given that the first generation "*L" cars are/were lame POS's, I guess I should not complain about ther retirement of "Legend" and "Vigor", however.)

2) This new "one-size-fits-all" is dumber yet.

On the plus side, these new "one-size-fits-all" appear far superior to the first generation of the "*L" cars

weeeg

I'd still get the Nav system. You never know when you're going to find yourself in a strange city or something. Also, even if you're close to home, it's nice being able to access the yellow pages database and find a phone number. What if you want to call Home Depot and see if they're still open? There's going to be a bunch of fancy trip computer stuff that the screen is used for (hopefully some bluetooth caller id and XM Radio info too), and you might not get that stuff if you don't buy the Nav system. There are places (such as friend's houses) that I go to all the time and could easily find without the Nav system, but I still always set the destination when I leave the house so that I can keep an eye on the continously updated ETA prediction. Sometimes I'm stuck in traffic and my friends call me to bitch about me being late, at least I can give them an pretty accurate prediction of when I'll be there (according to the Nav system).

The ETA function in all the non-Honda systems sucks (they make you type in a guess as to what your average speed is going to be), the Honda system uses your recent progress as a basis for its calculations. On non-Honda systems your ETA might show 40 minutes while you are cruising along at 80mph, suddenly you hit a wall of traffic and aren't moving at all for ten minutes, they will still show ETA as 40 minutes. The Honda system will adjust the ETA based on recent progress and the 40 minute figure will start creeping up as you are sitting there in traffic. Very nice!

Raheel

Wow I never knew Honda's System was that good..

But if you like your navi system in your '00 TL than you will love the voice activated systems in the Accord, TSX, and the 04 TL..

EmuMessenger

Definitely! The system in my wife's Accord is far and away better than the one in my TLS.

larchmont

A little tangential, but if you don't mind my asking.......

I'm somewhat in your position, even if not quite (although everybody on this board seems to think for some reason that I'm loaded), and I chose the TSX over everything else. Seems like the TSX doesn't make it onto your radar screen, and I wonder if you'd mind telling us why not.

(Let it all hang out, we can take it!)

weeeg

I drive my Corvette when I'm alone or when I'm in the mood for a sporty car. The only time I'll be driving the Acura is when I've got more than 2 passengers or I need to load up stuff in the trunk. I need it to have a roomy back seat and roomy trunk. The TSX is too small for my needs, even the TL is a bit on the small side. The 2005 RL is probably my best bet, but I can't wait that long, and the 2004 RL is too slow.

MotownTSX

I am sure it looks better in person. Photos never do justice, and this one sure as hell doesn't!

MotownTSX

You ain't that old if you dropped 17 large into your stereo!!!

EmuMessenger

I was thinking the same thing...

donutchow

i don't believe he'd put that much into a stereo. you can buy a civic EX for that price!!! what a waste of money.

and weeeg, you have a deposit on the C6? post any news on that if you have any, i hear it's going to cost more, and have heated seats!!!!! that's such a waste of added weight.

EmuMessenger

I also thought it was strange to have a deposit on a C6 already.

No flames... I also heard the C6 was going to have ventilated seats and xenon headlights.

LeeLee

$17K is not *that* much to spend on a good stereo system, though I'd expect such a system to bag a few small trophies at the national level. A good stereo can cost a lot of money, believe me guys. Even the modest system in my '98 Accord topped $2000 in material costs alone with a single amp, a single sub, front speakers only, and no new head unit.

In any case, the only person who needs to justify a $17K stereo is the guy writting the check.

I would if I could.

weeeg

Old is a relative term. I'm 38, so I figure I'm about twice the age of a typical TSX enthusiast. Although, since this is a thread about the TL, it's probably a slightly older crowd (perhaps mid 20's). My Corvette is in the June 2000 issue of "Auto Sound & Security" magazine. At least half the cost was labor, so I'm sure a similar system could be put together for half the price by someone willing to do all the work themselves.

larchmont

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Weeeeeg said he's old, and he's 38!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

(j/k, Weeeg)

weeeg

C6 = 2005 Corvette
I really don't know anything about the C6 yet. I've heard rumours that it will have adaptive cruise control and over 400hp. Since it shares the same platform and factory as the Cadillac XLR, I assume that the C6 will have a navigation system as well. Corvettes are made in limited quantities due to smog credits and CAFE averages. The dealership in my town is small, and it took TWO YEARS from the time I put my deposit down until the time I got my C5. That's why I've got my deposit on a C6 already. I'm just holding my place in the line in case I end up wanting one. I'm far from automatically being sold on it. I had a deposit on a 2003 Mercedes E55 for over a year and ended up passing on it.

weeeg

I seem to recall that on the Accord you either get fake wood or you get brushed aluminum depending on which color interior you choose. Is this correct, or am I on crack?

Regardless, my concern is really in the TL department.
Does anyone know if it is possible to *not* get any wood trim at all by ordering a certain interior color? I hate that stuff.

EmuMessenger

I think you only get brused aluminum in the Accord coupe.

stlgasman

I like the look of the wood. It is my understanding that the black and the quartz will not have wood trim. The parchment and camel will. We have seen pics of the black and know that is correct. Nobody has seen the quartz yet.

larchmont

I do too -- because IMO it screams "pretentious" -- which, if we wanted to be, we wouldn't be in a Honda or an Acura.

Maybe if it were real wood -- I'm really not sure. But FAKE wood, fuhgeddaboudit.
We don't need anything in there that's trying to be something else.