Acura: TLX News
05-15-2014, 03:13 PM
#9241
Team Owner
According to IIHS it got a good rating (the highest rating)
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/lexus/gs
What makes you say they're way off? What are you basing that on? Why do you believe that a 3.5 V6 in the RLX is going to be faster than the 4.6 in the Lexus LS?
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/lexus/gs
What makes you say they're way off? What are you basing that on? Why do you believe that a 3.5 V6 in the RLX is going to be faster than the 4.6 in the Lexus LS?
It is not hard because RLX has superior ground clearance, more aerodynamic, superior skinny all season tires (less weight), correct AC vent location and super quiet interior with best in class rear leg room.
That is why.
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ttribe (05-15-2014)
05-15-2014, 09:52 PM
#9242
it is not topsafeypick +
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/deskto...ards-from-iihs
.
This LS460 is joke. see LS460F Sport AWD test. even AWD not help in traction.
how poor it performs when it has all seaon tires. Car is definitely slower than RLX. Only 17mpg despite 8speed auto. RLX even with 6speed is faster and efficient.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-sport-awd.pdf
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/deskto...ards-from-iihs
.
What makes you say they're way off? What are you basing that on? Why do you believe that a 3.5 V6 in the RLX is going to be faster than the 4.6 in the Lexus LS?
how poor it performs when it has all seaon tires. Car is definitely slower than RLX. Only 17mpg despite 8speed auto. RLX even with 6speed is faster and efficient.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-sport-awd.pdf
05-16-2014, 12:02 AM
#9243
^ Does it matter if you think the LS460 is a joke?
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
Last edited by YEH; 05-16-2014 at 12:06 AM.
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jwong77 (05-16-2014)
05-16-2014, 02:59 AM
#9244
Midnight Marauder
^ Does it matter if you think the LS460 is a joke?
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
05-16-2014, 10:56 AM
#9245
^ Does it matter if you think the LS460 is a joke?
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
Even at its advanced age, the LS still far outsells the RLX and it's at a higher pricepoint.
The LS460 is not meant to be a sporty sedan, so all that other stuff really doesn't matter.
For what it is intended to be, it does well.
Heck, even the Equus/V8 K900 outsold the RLX last month and that's despite being at a higher pricepoint (while not having a lux badge) and lacking AWD.
Good thing that Honda didn't spend that much $$ developing the RLX b/c as far as sales go, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
I pointing out that with all season setup even AWD in LS that's how poor it is designed aerodynamically.
05-16-2014, 11:58 AM
#9246
Moderator
^^^^
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Costco (05-16-2014)
05-16-2014, 12:58 PM
#9247
Some dude
05-16-2014, 01:28 PM
#9248
So what you're saying is Toyota, who introduced the Lexus and the LS to the U.S. market in 1989, was able to bring prestige to the brand and make the LS a success and a luxury contender/player in under 10 years while Honda has been struggling to do so with Acura since 1986?
05-16-2014, 04:04 PM
#9250
Here people automatically assume V8 with higher performance, or long car mean greater rear seat leg room. Lexus LS is Camry of luxury sedans. people just buy for the historic badge since 1990s. RLX is superior across the broad product from safety to efficiency to handling.
And if the LS is the Camry of luxury sedans (really is the ES, despite moving to the Avalon platform), the RLX is even more so the Accord of luxury sedans (granted, the Accord is better than the Camry).
Furthermore, the LS is like 8-9 years old while the RLX is just about brand new.
And since Acura places the RLX as competing in the midsize segment (as do the other large-ish FWD based sedans like the XTS and MKS), the RLX has gotten poorer reviews compared to the GS.
The RLX being a FWD-based sedan and hence more of luxo-cruiser than a sports sedan failed miserably when it couldn't even get the ride sorted out right (same thing happened to Toyota with the ES).
Anyway you look at it, the RLX is a miserable flop sales-wise.
The TLX better be a hit since the ILX and RLX are dragging down Acura.
Once Lincoln redoes the MKS and adds a compact FWD-based sedan to its lineup, would not be surprised at all if Lincoln sedan sales surpass those for Acura (this is how bad Acura's situation is regarding its sedan lineup and they need to make drastic changes in order to switch things around).
Last edited by YEH; 05-16-2014 at 04:08 PM.
05-16-2014, 04:17 PM
#9251
Team Owner
oh no.... you took him seriously...
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Sly Raskal (05-18-2014)
05-17-2014, 11:02 AM
#9252
And if the LS is the Camry of luxury sedans (really is the ES, despite moving to the Avalon platform), the RLX is even more so the Accord of luxury sedans (granted, the Accord is better than the Camry).
RLX has nothing to do with Accord. RLX is on larger and different platform. ES is exact same platform as Avalon. with extremely poor handling form 215 size tire. a lot worse than Honda Accord.
RLX is designed for 19inch noise reducing rims. Accord is not.
Furthermore, the LS is like 8-9 years old while the RLX is just about brand new.
And since Acura places the RLX as competing in the midsize segment (as do the other large-ish FWD based sedans like the XTS and MKS), the RLX has gotten poorer reviews compared to the GS.
The RLX being a FWD-based sedan and hence more of luxo-cruiser than a sports sedan failed miserably when it couldn't even get the ride sorted out right (same thing happened to Toyota with the ES).
Most luxury flagship buyers could give a crap about that, much less all the other things you feel the necessity to bring up.
Anyway you look at it, the RLX is a miserable flop sales-wise.
The TLX better be a hit since the ILX and RLX are dragging down Acura.
Anyway you look at it, the RLX is a miserable flop sales-wise.
The TLX better be a hit since the ILX and RLX are dragging down Acura.
those who understand real luxury will buy it and those who don't they will ride in 4 cylinder 528i.
Once Lincoln redoes the MKS and adds a compact FWD-based sedan to its lineup, would not be surprised at all if Lincoln sedan sales surpass those for Acura (this is how bad Acura's situation is regarding its sedan lineup and they need to make drastic changes in order to switch things around).
05-17-2014, 11:03 AM
#9253
So what you're saying is Toyota, who introduced the Lexus and the LS to the U.S. market in 1989, was able to bring prestige to the brand and make the LS a success and a luxury contender/player in under 10 years while Honda has been struggling to do so with Acura since 1986?
05-18-2014, 06:01 AM
#9254
I feel the need...
The luxury market as a whole assumes RWD + V8 as being what the upper end of the luxury is about, even Honda/Acura as they had plans on the drawing board before they realized that it would not be a prudent financial risk.
The TLX better be a hit since the ILX and RLX are dragging down Acura.
The TLX better be a hit since the ILX and RLX are dragging down Acura.
05-18-2014, 01:43 PM
#9255
Acura was launched as a separate sales channel (as were Lexus and Infiniti) and as an intercept brand not meant to compete directly against the established luxury players (pretty much MB and BMW at that point).
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...-tier-1-status
And if Honda didn't think RWD/V8 was impt. - then Honda wouldn't have had plans in place (as did Ford with Lincoln).
http://www.autonews.com/article/2008...-luxury-brands
And that's why Acura, as does Lincoln, have to come up w/ advertising slogans like smart luxury.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...ume-sales.html
It's the very reason why GM decided to invest the billions on new RWD platforms and why Lincoln, after a near century of competing head to head w/ Cadillac, stated that going forward, it would no longer be directly competing against Cadillac.
And it's the same reason why Cadillac determined that the XTS (which competes directly against the RLX) simply wouldn't do as its full-size/flagship sedan (the CTS goes up higher in price) and also why Audi doesn't offer the FWD-driven versions of the A7 and A8 here.
Also, same reason why despite lacking a luxury badge, the Equus gets included in the flagship comparisons and the RL/RLX does not (also the reason why the Equus is priced higher).
The ES is just as much luxury as the TL, and far outsells the TL despite being in the same price-range and lacking AWD and any pretensions towards performance/handling.
And RWD is a broad term, encompassing the 2 Series coupe all the way up to the 7 Series.
When Honda Motor Co. Ltd. created its Acura brand for the U.S. in 1986, the auto maker did not intend for it to compete directly with established luxury players.
Instead, Acura would serve as an “intercept brand” for Honda customers looking for a “near-luxury experience,” says John Mendel, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. executive vice president. Before Acura, those customers would have been considering more expensive European luxury brands such as Volvo, BMW or Mercedes-Benz.
Instead, Acura would serve as an “intercept brand” for Honda customers looking for a “near-luxury experience,” says John Mendel, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. executive vice president. Before Acura, those customers would have been considering more expensive European luxury brands such as Volvo, BMW or Mercedes-Benz.
And if Honda didn't think RWD/V8 was impt. - then Honda wouldn't have had plans in place (as did Ford with Lincoln).
For decades, Acura has been limping along as a wannabe luxury brand. The vehicles never have been considered competitors to Mercedes, BMW or Lexus.
One reason, critics say, is that Acura lacks a large, prestigious, V-8-powered sedan. Another reason is that the brand has avoided rear-drive.
One reason, critics say, is that Acura lacks a large, prestigious, V-8-powered sedan. Another reason is that the brand has avoided rear-drive.
And that's why Acura, as does Lincoln, have to come up w/ advertising slogans like smart luxury.
Acura is reportedly moving away from its brand strategy to become a “tier one” luxury automaker in favor of volume sales. While no official word has been given by Honda or Acura representatives, the news has been reported by Honda fan site, TOV, which claims that several dealerships have been told a new strategy will focus on “Smart Luxury.”
What “Smart Luxury” means is not exactly clear, however, additional dealer information does seem to point towards a higher volume sales and away from vehicles like the NSX. Acura will also continue with its plan to not offer a V8 in the RL, instead delivering it as a hybrid (assumedly with a V6) – which is likely to make V8 power. A new V6 engine is also in the works for many of the vehicles in Acura’s lineup, but the biggest news is that Honda’s luxury brand aims to bring a new entry-level car to market to slot in under the TSX.
What “Smart Luxury” means is not exactly clear, however, additional dealer information does seem to point towards a higher volume sales and away from vehicles like the NSX. Acura will also continue with its plan to not offer a V8 in the RL, instead delivering it as a hybrid (assumedly with a V6) – which is likely to make V8 power. A new V6 engine is also in the works for many of the vehicles in Acura’s lineup, but the biggest news is that Honda’s luxury brand aims to bring a new entry-level car to market to slot in under the TSX.
It's the very reason why GM decided to invest the billions on new RWD platforms and why Lincoln, after a near century of competing head to head w/ Cadillac, stated that going forward, it would no longer be directly competing against Cadillac.
And it's the same reason why Cadillac determined that the XTS (which competes directly against the RLX) simply wouldn't do as its full-size/flagship sedan (the CTS goes up higher in price) and also why Audi doesn't offer the FWD-driven versions of the A7 and A8 here.
Also, same reason why despite lacking a luxury badge, the Equus gets included in the flagship comparisons and the RL/RLX does not (also the reason why the Equus is priced higher).
The ES is just as much luxury as the TL, and far outsells the TL despite being in the same price-range and lacking AWD and any pretensions towards performance/handling.
And RWD is a broad term, encompassing the 2 Series coupe all the way up to the 7 Series.
Last edited by YEH; 05-18-2014 at 01:49 PM.
05-18-2014, 06:53 PM
#9256
Senior Moderator
And no, they arent going to not make more so that they are more desirable with higher resale.
05-18-2014, 08:53 PM
#9258
2G TLX-S
05-18-2014, 09:07 PM
#9259
Moderator
05-18-2014, 09:57 PM
#9261
Moderator
You know, if you hadn't been participating in this discussion in this very thread for weeks now, I might actually take the time to point out all the times people said that very thing - "The SUVs are a success, but the sedan lineup is a disaster." - but since you have been around, I can only surmise that you simply enjoy being a contrarian as often as possible.
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05-18-2014, 10:10 PM
#9262
You know, if you hadn't been participating in this discussion in this very thread for weeks now, I might actually take the time to point out all the times people said that very thing - "The SUVs are a success, but the sedan lineup is a disaster." - but since you have been around, I can only surmise that you simply enjoy being a contrarian as often as possible.
05-19-2014, 03:17 AM
#9263
and people here is tired of all the shit that hit the Acura's fan.
Ugly marketing, obsolete technology, terrible design, and too much sloooowww steps forwards... we all are looking forward... for a brighter future in their lineup.
For the moment even Hyundai has got cars funny to drive: with turbo engines. Honda with all its great history in races and sportiveness has got NOTHING.
Is it a too much hard task for this brand, JUST THINKING about an ILX-R turbo engined thing, with 240-260 hp? It seems so, in the current days...
Now the got right the MDX and RDX...: with new interesting technologies... bravo! And so what...?
we still miss the RLX Sh-AWD: what's happened whit it!?
the TLX it's only on the paper and still not ready...
No sportiveness, no fun, and no NSX or sub-NSX sport cars... still: in 2014.
We are getting old. We are getting bored.
Let's wait a couple of years more and than we will talk not only of a brighter future, but maybe of great present days...
05-19-2014, 03:45 AM
#9265
05-19-2014, 07:39 AM
#9266
you are right. but you know... they got too many things wrong in the last years.
and people here is tired of all the shit that hit the Acura's fan.
Ugly marketing, obsolete technology, terrible design, and too much sloooowww steps forwards... we all are looking forward... for a brighter future in their lineup.
For the moment even Hyundai has got cars funny to drive: with turbo engines. Honda with all its great history in races and sportiveness has got NOTHING.
Is it a too much hard task for this brand, JUST THINKING about an ILX-R turbo engined thing, with 240-260 hp? It seems so, in the current days...
Now the got right the MDX and RDX...: with new interesting technologies... bravo! And so what...?
we still miss the RLX Sh-AWD: what's happened whit it!?
the TLX it's only on the paper and still not ready...
No sportiveness, no fun, and no NSX or sub-NSX sport cars... still: in 2014.
We are getting old. We are getting bored.
Let's wait a couple of years more and than we will talk not only of a brighter future, but maybe of great present days...
and people here is tired of all the shit that hit the Acura's fan.
Ugly marketing, obsolete technology, terrible design, and too much sloooowww steps forwards... we all are looking forward... for a brighter future in their lineup.
For the moment even Hyundai has got cars funny to drive: with turbo engines. Honda with all its great history in races and sportiveness has got NOTHING.
Is it a too much hard task for this brand, JUST THINKING about an ILX-R turbo engined thing, with 240-260 hp? It seems so, in the current days...
Now the got right the MDX and RDX...: with new interesting technologies... bravo! And so what...?
we still miss the RLX Sh-AWD: what's happened whit it!?
the TLX it's only on the paper and still not ready...
No sportiveness, no fun, and no NSX or sub-NSX sport cars... still: in 2014.
We are getting old. We are getting bored.
Let's wait a couple of years more and than we will talk not only of a brighter future, but maybe of great present days...
05-19-2014, 09:45 AM
#9267
Some dude
05-19-2014, 01:05 PM
#9268
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
You know, if you hadn't been participating in this discussion in this very thread for weeks now, I might actually take the time to point out all the times people said that very thing - "The SUVs are a success, but the sedan lineup is a disaster." - but since you have been around, I can only surmise that you simply enjoy being a contrarian as often as possible.
BUT I can agree to this.
05-19-2014, 01:44 PM
#9269
- Acura has delayed the TLX launch because they can't procure enough all season tires.
- One side thinks the TLX is going to be a disappointment because Acura. Another (smaller) group thinks the TLX is going to be a success. Who's right and who's wrong? The car isn't even out yet, so
- Deeply Discounted Power Plenums for mankind ™
- SSFTSX trolling again.... Acura wins. Lexus sucks. Reasons? Because:
- Lexus was able to become a luxury player and Acura hasn't
- the Lexus LS has outsold the RLX by 213.43% over the past 10 years
- the less cars Acura sells, the more rare they become, and thus will hold resale value better.
- Acura is all about all season tires, superior ground clearance, pot hole proof wheels, best in class aerodynamics, best in class rear leg room, etc, and Lexus isn't
- Cool.
- Story.
- Bro.
- Poopdick McFartington.
05-19-2014, 02:36 PM
#9270
When it comes to CUVs, there is far less stigma in being FWD-based (besides most CUVs come equipped w/ AWD) and the FWD/transverse layout optimizes space at a lower pricepoint which is very key for CUVs.
For instance, the MDX offers more interior room than the X5 at a considerably lower pricepoint.
It's the very reason why the RX has been the sales success it has been for Lexus and why SRX sales jumped once Cadillac switched it from RWD (the 1st gen RWD SRX was much more a sport CUV and the auto press had a lot of nice things to say about it, but the market had little interest).
The FWD-based SRX is much less interesting to enthusiasts but garners much more interest from soccer-moms.
It's the same reason why Acura dropped SH-AWD from the RDX and why they began to offer the MDX in FWD.
Infiniti learned its lesson w/ the slow selling enthusiast oriented FX and began to offer a roomier FWD-based CUV, the JX which does much better in sales (btw, despite being a larger CUV, the FWD JX is slotted underneath the RWD FX in Infiniti's new nomenclature hierarchy - which only further confirms the whole RWD vs. FWD thing).
This is exactly the reason why Audi, Lincoln and Acura all see CUVs as their main engines of growth - and why Lexus is adding to their CUV lineup but keeping w/ FWD-based CUVs.
This presents a conundrum for Cadillac - as they have been chasing BMW (well, the old BMW) in terms of driving dynamics w/ the ATS and CTS and being quite successful at it - but do they try to do the same w/ their CUV lineup (doing an ATS and CTS based CUVs)?
Going RWD would mean lower sales (but at a higher pricepoint); but even so, I think that is the way to go (esp. since Cadillac needs to optimize use of the platforms underpinning the ATS and CTS) and Cadillac can always do a FWD-based CUV as a full-size/3 row since something that large really has no pretensions in being sporty.
Design wise, the RDX and MDX aren't really any better looking than the ILX and TLX (the RLX is the worst of the lot) and it's not like bad design has been an impediment to sales if mostly everything else is right (see the previous gen CR-V, quite an unattractive CUV and yet, Honda still sold gobs of it), tho arguably, the Acura front end looks less awkward on the CUVs than the sedans.
I actually like the sheetmetal of the ILX (even w/ the toned down beak up front; really needs to lose that look for the next gen) - which looks a good bit more like a luxury sedan than the Buick Verano, but GM got the packaging down better and the Verano rides more like a luxury sedan than the ILX.
Now, this certainly doesn't mean that Acura can't regain some success w/ its sedans, but the no.1 focus should be on giving its sedan lineup really attractive designs (which can go a long way in making up for being FWD based) - as was the 3G TL.
Look at what Kia has been able to do w/ the Optima; not only did they develop a more luxurious trim level above the SX, they made the refreshed SXL trim even more luxurious due to customer demand (the refreshed SXL trim starts at $37k).
Also, being the best handler doesn't signify sales success, otherwise, Mazda would be outselling Toyota (also the current Lexus GS is far more sportier than its predecessor and yet is doing worse in sales).
Last edited by YEH; 05-19-2014 at 02:48 PM.
05-19-2014, 03:58 PM
#9271
I feel the need...
As I had stated before, the success that Acura has w/ CUVs in comparison to sedans has to do more w/ the particularities of the luxury CUV market compared to the luxury sedan market.
Also, being the best handler doesn't signify sales success, otherwise, Mazda would be outselling Toyota (also the current Lexus GS is far more sportier than its predecessor and yet is doing worse in sales).
Also, being the best handler doesn't signify sales success, otherwise, Mazda would be outselling Toyota (also the current Lexus GS is far more sportier than its predecessor and yet is doing worse in sales).
This is the TLX thread. Let's look forward to driving it shall we?
05-19-2014, 05:21 PM
#9272
^ Simply clarifying why Acura is having better success w/ its CUVs than w/ its sedans - that's all (it's not like the RDX and MDX are materially different in design from the sedans aside from the whole CUV body thing, and they have increased sales despite getting less sporty).
Nothing says you have to read every post if it doesn't interest you.
Nothing says you have to read every post if it doesn't interest you.
05-19-2014, 06:51 PM
#9273
I feel the need...
^ Simply clarifying why Acura is having better success w/ its CUVs than w/ its sedans - that's all (it's not like the RDX and MDX are materially different in design from the sedans aside from the whole CUV body thing, and they have increased sales despite getting less sporty).
Peeps buy MDX and RDX because they are better than previous iterations and the segment is growing.
Will be interesting to see how Acura prices the 2.4 DCT TECH versus the Accord Touring. That would be a tough call in my book value wise. TLX better be a hot performer.
05-19-2014, 07:09 PM
#9274
Team Owner
Who buys CUV's for the sportiness?
Peeps buy MDX and RDX because they are better than previous iterations and the segment is growing.
Will be interesting to see how Acura prices the 2.4 DCT TECH versus the Accord Touring. That would be a tough call in my book value wise. TLX better be a hot performer.
Peeps buy MDX and RDX because they are better than previous iterations and the segment is growing.
Will be interesting to see how Acura prices the 2.4 DCT TECH versus the Accord Touring. That would be a tough call in my book value wise. TLX better be a hot performer.
05-19-2014, 07:11 PM
#9275
^ Well some do - the Cayenne, the new Macan, some X3/old X5 buyers, as well as the FX.
Granted, a much smaller target market.
Anyhow...
And the CTS-V should drive the ATP even higher (comparison to the old CTS shouldn't really count since it was a tweener and not a true midsize competitor).
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-stick#r=hp-ls
Cadillac would never have been able to do the same by tarting up a Malibu.
Granted, a much smaller target market.
Anyhow...
In the U.S. last month, the Cadillac CTS sold for $54,571 on average, almost as much as the vaunted Mercedes-Benz (DAI:GR) E-Class ($55,788) or the BMW (BMW:GR) 5 Series ($56,284). A year ago the midsize Cadillac was selling for less than $44,000, more than $16,000 less than its German-born rivals. In short, Cadillac buyers aren’t asking for a Detroit discount anymore—they’re forking over the Euro premium.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-stick#r=hp-ls
Cadillac would never have been able to do the same by tarting up a Malibu.
Last edited by YEH; 05-19-2014 at 07:14 PM.
05-19-2014, 07:57 PM
#9277
Moderator
05-19-2014, 08:12 PM
#9279
Moderator
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