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Old 11-18-2003, 12:25 PM
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Gilboman,

Regarding customer service, I recieved a call from Acura HQ quality engineers asking about my experiance with my car, and wanting to know more about my issues, how is that, they spent about 45 minutes reviewing in detail so they could make sure others did not have these MINOR problems!

With regards to dealers - I get great sevice at my dealer, I get a new TSX to drive (even for an oil change), they provide every other service for free (olf), the wash and vac the car and even explain each issue. Customer Service is great where I got my car, sorry to hear that it was not as good for all.

I only have to wait 10-14 days for a loaner appointment, vs our BMW at a major dealership in NY that has a 30-45 day wait for a loaner Not only that, but they charge you $500 for a mass sensor, and $900 for a brake job (brakes/rotors are gone after 22,000miles) Talk about a royal screw!

BMW's are far from perfect, I know many that have them in monthly for crap quality issues. I know one that is a year old, needed a new battery, alarm failed, interior finish is wearing off, paint is bad, and it only has 6,000 miles on it!

No car is perfect, look at MB and all the articles about their quality problems.

Acura is a great car for the money, and even after 4 years are up, service is not an arm and a leg! (German cars have ALWAYS been costly to maintain, even at an independent shop! If they did not give the free, but in the overall price, sevice, no one would buy them, other than the physcos).

Dont get me wrong, I know what I am talking about, we have 5 BMW's in the family, I have seen it all!

Sorry Gilboman, I just seem to go off when you write, but I guess you like that!
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:40 PM
  #322  
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Originally posted by justinjsw
It could have been you went to a bad Acura dealer and your friend went to a great Lexus dealer. I don't think its as bad or even as good as alot of people make them out to be. Its all dependent in the people working each service dept.
Yea, maybe. It was a while ago also (10+ years now) and I'm pretty sure they are better now (couldn't get worse, I'll tell you that much). The Lexus dealer that my friend uses does happen to be a nationally recognized Lexus dealership.

But there is an air of luxury walking into a MB or Lexus dealership you just don't get with Acura dealerships. The Mile High and Flatiron Acura dealerships here in CO share their lots with other models such as Mitsu, Honda, and Subaru. The Pikes Peak dealership is where I was called an asshole for not buying the TSX without knowing the final price (Gawd, that still ticks me off). With MB, Lexus and such, you just don't have a high pressure salesperson to deal with, just someone that will stand near and wait till you request help. Their experience is still far higher in quality then Acura, let's be honest. (BMW, I don't know, I've been put off by their mass numbers on the road, as well as some quality issues).

I bought my father a QX from Infiniti this year, and the dealer experience was so great, I sent a thank you note to them. They didn't pressure, gave us an honest deal that could be confirmed, and the demeaner of the dealership was great.

I love Acura's, don't get me wrong here, but the whole experience of owning one just doesn't seem like a 'luxury' experience. I hope that with the new products and new direction, the Acura badge will become comparable to other luxury brands (not the Volvo or Saab type, more Lexus, Infiniti or MB).

Junkster, whose only BMW faves are the 2002 and CSL M3.
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:43 PM
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Sorry for what...he is just a troll. Nothing more.
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Junkster
Yea, maybe. It was a while ago also (10+ years now) and I'm pretty sure they are better now (couldn't get worse, I'll tell you that much). The Lexus dealer that my friend uses does happen to be a nationally recognized Lexus dealership.

But there is an air of luxury walking into a MB or Lexus dealership you just don't get with Acura dealerships. The Mile High and Flatiron Acura dealerships here in CO share their lots with other models such as Mitsu, Honda, and Subaru. The Pikes Peak dealership is where I was called an asshole for not buying the TSX without knowing the final price (Gawd, that still ticks me off). With MB, Lexus and such, you just don't have a high pressure salesperson to deal with, just someone that will stand near and wait till you request help. Their experience is still far higher in quality then Acura, let's be honest. (BMW, I don't know, I've been put off by their mass numbers on the road, as well as some quality issues).

I bought my father a QX from Infiniti this year, and the dealer experience was so great, I sent a thank you note to them. They didn't pressure, gave us an honest deal that could be confirmed, and the demeaner of the dealership was great.

I love Acura's, don't get me wrong here, but the whole experience of owning one just doesn't seem like a 'luxury' experience. I hope that with the new products and new direction, the Acura badge will become comparable to other luxury brands (not the Volvo or Saab type, more Lexus, Infiniti or MB).

Junkster, whose only BMW faves are the 2002 and CSL M3.
Again I understand your frustrations and I wish all Acura dealers will just step up and treat their clients right. But that would be like saying we are all perfect. Acura has come a long way and still have some way to go with service and their products but lets not forget Acura was number one in CSI for a good number of years. Lets hope they get back to that level soon.

I have no problems with what you said...but that troll gilboman I do have a BIG problem with.
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Old 11-18-2003, 02:07 PM
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gilboman,

the mr-2 is a rwd toyota currently available, plus it offers a clutchless manual along the lines of the smg...if u really want 2 get technical, some of the toyota trucks are available in rwd configurations


justin, i feel for you bro....gilboman is such a berating troll, btw gilboman, shouldnt u be on a bmw forum reading up on a new tsb or recall?...or is that site down b/c there are too many bmw owners trying to access that page and that site crashed like some i-drives?


I honeslty believe acura has THE WORST marketing dept out there ....they need to upgrade their PR and marjeting dept....a good chucnk of lexus' legacy is due to a very effective PR and marketing campaign IMO
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:59 PM
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Oh yes, and the absence of a V8. And the presence of front-wheel drive. We who are self-designated Serious Drivers know that cylinders must number eight or more and the rear wheels (or all wheels) must be driven to be a serious contender for out affections. That’s on dry or wet.
Nuff said.
honeslty believe acura has THE WORST marketing dept out there ....they need to upgrade their PR and marjeting dept....a good chucnk of lexus' legacy is due to a very effective PR and marketing campaign IMO
Infiniti marketing is still horrible. Better. Acura's marketing is not bad, it's the product.
love Acura's, don't get me wrong here, but the whole experience of owning one just doesn't seem like a 'luxury' experience. I hope that with the new products and new direction, the Acura badge will become comparable to other luxury brands (not the Volvo or Saab type, more Lexus, Infiniti or MB).
Hit the nail on the head.
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Old 11-18-2003, 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Nuff said.

Infiniti marketing is still horrible. Better. Acura's marketing is not bad, it's the product.

Hit the nail on the head.
Sad but true. However, I don't think the RL needs a V8. If Acura needs a V8 in its lineup, it should make a more expensive sedan in the 60K range. Mercedes sells a handful of E-Class sedans, with the vast majority of them being the V-6 version, not the hot rod V8 version. Same with the Lexus GS sedans as well as the BMW 5-Series. Infiniti has a V8 standard on the current M45, and the RL still outsells it. Besides the M45 being so hideous, it shows that cylinder count is not 100% correlated to the sales success of a car.
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Old 11-18-2003, 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by phile
Sad but true. However, I don't think the RL needs a V8. If Acura needs a V8 in its lineup, it should make a more expensive sedan in the 60K range. Mercedes sells a handful of E-Class sedans, with the vast majority of them being the V-6 version, not the hot rod V8 version. Same with the Lexus GS sedans as well as the BMW 5-Series. Infiniti has a V8 standard on the current M45, and the RL still outsells it. Besides the M45 being so hideous, it shows that cylinder count is not 100% correlated to the sales success of a car.
Yea... but...
I think wishing for a Honda V8 is a waste of time. But, wishing for a higher powered engine is not so. When they announced the replacement of the RL, what I was hoping for was a high end luxury car typical of the LS and the Q45. Something big and powerful which usually personify a flagship sedan, with all the gadgetry goodies and priced in the 40~50 K range (I was thinking higher, but then no one would pay that much for a Honda, would they?...).

In the engine, I was hoping for a large V6 which could be coupled with some alternative methods to increase power. I personally think this would make sense for the company in their future planning. Think, what market is the only market that Honda has not approached in which the other Japanese big 2 (toyota, nissan) have? Bingo... large trucks and SUV's. Pilot and MDX are great, but they don't compare to the people in search of the soccer-mom-mobile a.k.a Tahoe, Armada, etc. Honda has been stretched in every other market possible, so it would make sense to start breaking new ground. Since the earth friendly company couldn't bend itself to build a gas guzzlin V8, it could use it's R&D to come up with a V6 that could compete with the V8's. They did it with the I4 that compete with V6's with vtec. I still hold dreams of such an engine from Honda.

As for V8 luxes, I think that they are not intended to be high volume sellers (look at the price!), but rather they are image enhancers for the brand. M45 was hideous, yes, but Infiniti implanted the idea that they are a performance driven division serious about sport sedans. My guess is that they hurried it out to the US market so as to say, "hey, we build sport sedans with V8's too, lookie!!". With the launch of the redesign, they might actually have the few buyers needed to support the car (hey, 5 series performance without the headaches of maintenance... great!!!). The LS's, S series and 7 series are for bragging rights to the crown of luxury, not for sales.

Junkster, who dreams of owning a Acura RL that can sit next to a S series... sigh...
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Old 11-18-2003, 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by justinjsw
You are such a little troll.

Below is JDPowers CSI for 2003....
Oh and that 20K RSX that is so embrassing to you...I wonder why BMW and MB have both decided to move DOWN scale with their products. Oh wait they are going to be nice cars because it will be RWD...how can I be so dumb to forget that.

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.—Quality improvements across the automotive industry are driving down the need for warranty repairs at new-vehicle dealerships, transforming the nature of the dealer service business, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Customer Service Index (CSI) StudySM released today.

The study, now in its 22nd year, finds the balance of work at dealerships is tilting more toward regular scheduled maintenance as opposed to repairs. The mix of routine maintenance business has increased to 57 percent in 2003 from 47 percent in 1999.

"Less warranty work means that automakers are taking cost out of their products through quality improvements," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "To replace this declining revenue, dealers must now compete with other service providers, such as independent service facilities, for customer-paid service business, making them more accountable to their customers."

Customer satisfaction with dealer service has improved industry-wide by eight points over 2002©?851 compared with 843©?reflecting the fourth consecutive improvement since the current study metrics were established in 1999.

The study notes that sales increases over recent years among certain franchises, particularly among some European nameplates, have resulted in bottlenecks at service bays. As growth in service capacity and accessibility have been outpaced by sales growth, some customers report frustration getting their vehicles into the dealership in a reasonable and convenient time. The 2003 study shows significant improvements being made in this and other areas, among both Audi and Mercedes-Benz franchises.

"Dealers that now have more customers are being challenged to find ways to keep their customers flowing efficiently through their service bays," said Ivers. "Efficiency problems can also have a negative effect on other unrelated aspects of the service experience, even with regard to a customer¡¯s critique of the vehicle itself."

Infiniti ranks highest in the 2003 study with an index score of 900. Saturn, which led in 2002, follows Infiniti in the ranking, dropping four index points to 896. Acura, Lexus and Lincoln tie for third position at 895.

Suzuki is the most improved nameplate in 2003, increasing 5 percent over 2002. Audi and Mercedes-Benz were each up 4 percent, while Ford and Mitsubishi each improved 3 percent.

The CSI study focuses on experiences with the dealer service department during the first three years of vehicle ownership, which typically represents the majority of vehicle warranty periods. The 2003 study is based upon the responses of nearly 106,000 new-vehicle owners and lessees.

Headquartered in Westlake Village, Calif., J.D. Power and Associates is an ISO 9001-registered global marketing information services firm operating in key business sectors including market research, forecasting, consulting, training and customer satisfaction. The firm¡¯s quality and satisfaction measurements are based on responses from millions of consumers annually. Media e-mail contact: [email protected] or [email protected]

No advertising or other promotional use can be made of the information in this release without the express prior written consent of J.D. Power and Associates. www.jdpower.com

# # #
the point of that being? the service department at Acura is nice while most of their sales clearly do not understand what customer service means? Go ask around, Lexus and European customer service > Acura customer service.

BMW and MB can move downmarket because they respect their customers and have their act together and actually know what customer service means and give a rats ass about people's experience in their dealers, so when they sell a car, be it a C230 coupe of 320i, the customer is always treated with respect.... i can walk into any MB, Lexus, BMW ask for a test drive of a car, they take photocopy of licence give me keys and tell me to have a good time, return the car, ask if i have any questions and wish me a good day when i tell them i will think about it... I've been to different Acura dealers few times and each time they tried to get me to commit to the car, gauge how serious i am before letting me test drive it and tag along and tell me to don't do this or that... they practically wanted to yell at me when i said i would think about it and kept calling me after i told them i didnt want to be contacted by them agan. it's just in my experience, Acura dealers and sales have no class at all and you don't feel you are getting quality customer service copared to other luxury brands.
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Old 11-18-2003, 11:06 PM
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Actually part of giboman's comment is correct. Acura perhaps should go upmarket away from the RSX. Make the RSx a Prelude replacement and the TSX as the base. In Canada they have an EL model which is a fancy Civic. That helped keep the doors open during lean years but perhaps it should be dropped.
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Old 11-19-2003, 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Junkster
As for V8 luxes, I think that they are not intended to be high volume sellers (look at the price!), but rather they are image enhancers for the brand.

Junkster, who dreams of owning a Acura RL that can sit next to a S series... sigh...
That's exactly what Acura needs: an Acura S-Class. The RL hovers in the E-Class realm, it can't stretch into S-Class territory.
A car above the RL, with either a V6 teamed with IMA, or a V8, and AWD with a RWD bias to handle all that powa. And perhaps even a long wheelbase version?

That's just my wishful thinking, but I think that's what Acura should do.
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
the point of that being? the service department at Acura is nice while most of their sales clearly do not understand what customer service means? Go ask around, Lexus and European customer service > Acura customer service.
Acura customer service does seem very inconsistent. I shopped my car between two dealers in RTP, NC, though the internet departments. One treated me like an idiot, gave half-assed incorrect answers, and wouldn't give me a price over the internet. The other was very professional and pleasant, gave me a price up front before I even showed up (which was somewhat flexible), and made me want to buy the car there. If all of them were like that, Acura would have something going for them BUT the 1st dealership only reinforces the stereotype that Acura is not full-lux yet.

The second dealership was Performance Acura in Chapel Hill, NC. I'd recommend it to anyone.

JCG, who just felt like imitating Junkster
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by gilboman
the point of that being? the service department at Acura is nice while most of their sales clearly do not understand what customer service means? Go ask around, Lexus and European customer service > Acura customer service.

BMW and MB can move downmarket because they respect their customers and have their act together and actually know what customer service means and give a rats ass about people's experience in their dealers, so when they sell a car, be it a C230 coupe of 320i, the customer is always treated with respect.... i can walk into any MB, Lexus, BMW ask for a test drive of a car, they take photocopy of licence give me keys and tell me to have a good time, return the car, ask if i have any questions and wish me a good day when i tell them i will think about it... I've been to different Acura dealers few times and each time they tried to get me to commit to the car, gauge how serious i am before letting me test drive it and tag along and tell me to don't do this or that... they practically wanted to yell at me when i said i would think about it and kept calling me after i told them i didnt want to be contacted by them agan. it's just in my experience, Acura dealers and sales have no class at all and you don't feel you are getting quality customer service copared to other luxury brands.
there is a 320i?

I have to disagree with the customer service description that you are giving. I have been to both Honda and Acura delearship for service and have received nothing but the best treatment. I have never had any issues with them. I've been to a Lexus, Audi, MB, dealership as well and did not see anything extra as far as service goes.

Maybe overall, the Lexus (and such) dealerships are more consistant about their level of service than compared to Acura. But I've been to several Acura dealerships and no complaints.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by DEVO
there is a 320i?

I have to disagree with the customer service description that you are giving. I have been to both Honda and Acura delearship for service and have received nothing but the best treatment. I have never had any issues with them. I've been to a Lexus, Audi, MB, dealership as well and did not see anything extra as far as service goes.

Maybe overall, the Lexus (and such) dealerships are more consistant about their level of service than compared to Acura. But I've been to several Acura dealerships and no complaints.
I think Lexus does a very thorough check on the quality of their dealerships all over the world, not just the US.

I think of two published stories of the extent of Lexus' service speaks volumes of their "persuit of perfection".

During a european trip of a long term car review, a british journalist ran into car problems (turned out to be a corrosive wire) and was stranded in Spain. He placed a service call and a Lexus representative came in 30 minutes with the same model car (LS, I believe) and told him to take it while this car was in service. When the journalist told him he had to drive back to Britain, the Spainish guy put in a call and told him "no worries, just drive it back to England and we will contact you when the car is ready". A week later, the journalist got a call from his London-base dealership who said his car was there, and he could drop off the other LS. Such a story seems extreme, but it's also happened in the US as well.

Another story involves a malfunctioning stereo. The dealship pulled the old one out and replaced it with a new one. A week or so later, the owner recieved a package from Lexus, which contained a letter of apology and a CD that was in the old stereo.

At my local MB dealership, they serve you Starbucks, you have your own contact person to ask questions about your car and let you talk to the salesmen while in a living room like atmosphere, with couches and recliners, not little cubicles of torture.

Compared to these experiences that I have had, an Acura dealership seems like just another car dealership.

Junkster, whose had better experinces at Honda dealers than Acuras.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:38 AM
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Outside of NA you can get all kinds of versions of various cars. Even the Cadillac CTS made in the US has more versions OUTSIDE NA. BMW currently starts at a 316i but even that will be soon undercut by the 1 series (to compete with Audi 3 series and MB A class, none of which are available in NA).
The 5 series is the most customizeable car there is. All the way from a 4 banger 520 to a V10 M5. You can just imagine the amount of engineering that must have gone in that chassis to be able handle the variations. Honda is at the other extreme especially in NA, with virtually no options in the TSX or TL. Of course in return to get value. The Euro Accord has 2 body styles (sedan, wagon), 3 engine choices and a host of options most of which are thrown in with the TSX. Of course this makes it more expensive when similiarly equiped.

Being a very conservative company I don't think you'll see Honda change much over the short term. The only area I see in which Honda will try to lead is with hybrids. Even there it'll be neck-in-neck with Toyota.
I think the new RL will give a hint at what's to come.

Since delearships are run my regular folks you'll get a variation from one to the next just like you have different personalities in the real world. Some makes do a better job at it but of course you also usually pay more for that. Hopefully the folks on this board will help weed out that bad ones and praise the good ones.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by jcg878

JCG, who just felt like imitating Junkster
You're playing with fire my friend... FIRE!!!

Junkster, who thinks this third person thing might be getting out of hand.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by DEVO
there is a 320i?

We have a 320i in Canada.

I think Gilbo made most of crap in his lat post up. I've had some great treatment at Acura dealers although I'm not completely satisfied with the current service department I'm visiting.

But a friend here at work has nothing but complaints about BMW of Mississauga where he services his 320. He says there snotty, rude and act like he's crazy when he asks why the service costs or so high. Again I'm sure on average BMW dealers offer better customer service than Acura dealers but its not always the case.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by biker
BMW currently starts at a 316i but even that will be soon undercut by the 1 series (to compete with Audi 3 series and MB A class, none of which are available in NA).
We in NA get those in a year or two, starting with the Audi 3, I believe. (You're in euro, how is the Audi 3?)

Funny story about the MB A class is that I actually saw a testing of the A series in Denver not too long ago. I was driving along with my brother when he pointed out how the car a few cars behind us has black tape all over it. I looked and it was a A series heavily disguised. There were 3 in a roll. It was pretty cool. Another time, I saw a test mule of a E class sedan, with some weird tail pipes that just didn't look right. I drove up next to it, and noticed there were alot of readout panels and wires that had replaced the stereo. That was also pretty neat.

Junkster, who wishes he had a digital camera for such occasions.
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Old 11-19-2003, 12:41 PM
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Junkster, you are single right?

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Old 11-19-2003, 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by DEVO
Junkster, you are single right?

Kinda off topic... I'm kinda inbetween right now, just started seeing someone new just a few months ago, but it's nothing serious yet.

Junkster, who wonders what brought about this silly question.
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:20 PM
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DEVO, who wonders how long Junkster is going to last talking in the 3rd person.
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by DEVO
DEVO, who wonders how long Junkster is going to last talking in the 3rd person.
Junkster, who thinks it's just a phase that he is going through.
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:42 PM
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dnb reporting ...

If you could combine Naptown's and Junkster's styles your message would be structured like a TCP packet.

dnb, who sometimes gets into obscure geekish humor.

dnb out.
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by dnb
dnb reporting ...

If you could combine Naptown's and Junkster's styles your message would be structured like a TCP packet.

dnb, who sometimes gets into obscure geekish humor.

dnb out.
I don't have the brainpower to know what you're talking about, but it sounds funny.

JCG, who wonders where naptown went

JCG out
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:20 PM
  #345  
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Junkster, who is now curious as to who this Naptown is.

Junkster out.
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Old 11-19-2003, 04:12 PM
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Regarding the dealership experience, I thought this was an interesting tidbit from a carconnection.com piece on Acura:

"Unlike Lexus, which hand-picked only the best American retailers, Acura didn't really put a premium on customer service until it became obvious that was a way to differentiate itself. Now it must train, reward and, if necessary, dump unwilling dealers."

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6510
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Old 11-19-2003, 04:31 PM
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Sad but true. However, I don't think the RL needs a V8. If Acura needs a V8 in its lineup, it should make a more expensive sedan in the 60K range. Mercedes sells a handful of E-Class sedans, with the vast majority of them being the V-6 version, not the hot rod V8 version. Same with the Lexus GS sedans as well as the BMW 5-Series. Infiniti has a V8 standard on the current M45, and the RL still outsells it. Besides the M45 being so hideous, it shows that cylinder count is not 100% correlated to the sales success of a car.
The 1st generation GS 300 TRIED to compete with the E and 5 without a V-8 and failed miserably (1993-1997). Acura did not see this and repeated the SAME MISTAKE with the RL. To insult us more, their marketing advertises the RL as a sport/luxury sedan.

Has anyone here actually driven the RL? My mother fell asleep at the wheel driving it. For 45k, it offers NOTHING, no argument to buy over a loaded Accord or Camry.

Concerning the M45, well Infiniti just does not ring with the general public. Not to mention, the V-8 M45 has lost to I-6 competiton in ever comparison. Very embarressing to Infiniti.
Compared to these experiences that I have had, an Acura dealership seems like just another car dealership.
I know the GM at a local Acura dealer here and we talk all the time (bought 2 cars from them). He says they don't make enough money nor are they dictated to go above and beyond as Lexus does. So they won't. They sell 20-40k cars and they will sell them because they are cheaper than the competiton and the name Acura sounds better than Honda or Toyota.
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Old 11-19-2003, 04:45 PM
  #348  
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
The 1st generation GS 300 TRIED to compete with the E and 5 without a V-8 and failed miserably (1993-1997). Acura did not see this and repeated the SAME MISTAKE with the RL. To insult us more, their marketing advertises the RL as a sport/luxury sedan.
It's not the number of cylinders that really matters - as evidenced by the sales number for the V6 vs V8 models - it's the whole package. The 1st gen. Lexus GS is as forgettable as the current RL; I don't even remember what it looks like. Acura was selling 50,000 Legends per year when it was new - and that's with a V6, so you can't say that a lack of a V8 is the ultimate determination of a car's failure.

If the new RL embodies the spirit of the old Legend, you will see that without a V8, the RL can still compete with Mercedes and BMW in terms of sales. Whereas those Germans rely on bragging rights of more expensive and more powerful versions of their E-Class and 5-Series sedans to market them, Acura will offer a fully loaded RL for the same price as the base model E320 and 530 sedans, which is where most buyers will be shopping.
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Old 11-19-2003, 05:18 PM
  #349  
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Originally posted by phile

If the new RL embodies the spirit of the old Legend, you will see that without a V8, the RL can still compete with Mercedes and BMW in terms of sales. Whereas those Germans rely on bragging rights of more expensive and more powerful versions of their E-Class and 5-Series sedans to market them, Acura will offer a fully loaded RL for the same price as the base model E320 and 530 sedans, which is where most buyers will be shopping.
I think the old Legend's personna lives through the TL line, and the RL should try to break new ground in much the same fashion as the original Legend line. The nest RL should be something that competes with the European counterparts, but with it's own formula of success, whether that be more power, gadgetry or AWD standard. This RL then should not be competing with the E class or the 5 series, that's the TL's line of duty. The RL should look for the next level. But knowing Acura and their track record, this RL might not live up to anyone's expectations.

As for the expensive models of E's and 5's, once again, they are image cars, they don't need to sell alot of them. They are their for people who own the lower tier E's and 5's to say "yea, my car shares alot with the AMG/M model". It's the lineage method of selling cars. You know, you look at the NSX and get this image of sportiness through all the model lines.

As for the profit line, I'm pretty sure that one lowly E320 or 530 brings in higher net profit then two or possibly 3 RL net profits combined. The prestige of the MB and BMW can't be objectively priced, but they can sure try to overcharge you for it.

And yes, you don't need a V8 in a mid level luxury car, but you do need a V8 or a V8-like powerplant to succeed in the top levels of luxury sedans (unless you're the pre-Ford Jaguars, then you do it with a 6 or 12).

Junkster, who thinks the Germans do deserve about 80 % of the respect they recieve.
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Old 11-19-2003, 05:56 PM
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It's not the number of cylinders that really matters - as evidenced by the sales number for the V6 vs V8 models - it's the whole package. The 1st gen. Lexus GS is as forgettable as the current RL; I don't even remember what it looks like. Acura was selling 50,000 Legends per year when it was new - and that's with a V6, so you can't say that a lack of a V8 is the ultimate determination of a car's failure.
I dunno, it was styled by Giugario and looks better than a RL to me. If the current generation did not have a V-8 model, I think it would have sold just as slow. The A-6 took off slow when it came with just the 200 V-6, it only became recognized as competition when they stuffed the 4.2 V-8 in it.

People need a halo model to look up to. People don't mind buying cars that are related to stronger models.

In AMERICA, luxury is equated with V-8s.

The Legend was selling very slow at the end of it's cycle, when a loaded GS was 44k.
As for the expensive models of E's and 5's, once again, they are image cars, they don't need to sell alot of them. They
Nope and they'll make more profit. In the auto business, the more expensive the car, the more the profit.

The next Rl, won't be a V-8 and I am sure instead of taking competiton head on, it will slot into a niche. Which may help it sell.
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Old 11-19-2003, 07:18 PM
  #351  
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Originally posted by Junkster
And yes, you don't need a V8 in a mid level luxury car, but you do need a V8 or a V8-like powerplant to succeed in the top levels of luxury sedans (unless you're the pre-Ford Jaguars, then you do it with a 6 or 12).

Junkster, who thinks the Germans do deserve about 80 % of the respect they recieve.
Yes, which is why I don't think the RL needs a V8, but I do think that Acura needs another luxo sedan above the RL. Also why I do not agree that the RL competes with anything above the6-cylinder versions of the E-Class and 5-Series sedans from the two Germans.
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Old 11-19-2003, 07:44 PM
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i totally agree that acura needs a sedan above the RL..it would make more sense to bring out a all new sedan instead of moving the RL up market. some names i thought of the last time this came up was the GL(grand luxury) or UL(ultra luxury). maybe acura might do it cause there was a rumor going around that a new sedan will come out based on the DNX concept
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:43 PM
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Adding another model on top of the RL could prove a disaster if buyers don't respect the Acura name enough to select a big-buck car. One sees Infinity back-pedalling by bringing out the M45 since the Q45 just seems too expensive for an Infinity.

I think Acura would do well to include a V8 in the RL and keep it as their top luxury cruiser hopefully at not much more than the current RL price. The TL with vtech V6 can be their sport sedan to compete with the BMW 5 series. I think people who buy the RL are looking for a quiet, smooth ride with plenty of power to get them out ahead of the pack when necessary. A V8 would do that.

As a side note; if Acura adds too much sporty trim (aluminum interior trim and matte fake metal exterior) on the upcoming RL, they will alienate a large percentage of their Legend/RL fans who like their cars to be understated and elegant
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Old 11-20-2003, 12:42 AM
  #354  
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Originally posted by legendguy
Adding another model on top of the RL could prove a disaster if buyers don't respect the Acura name enough to select a big-buck car. One sees Infinity back-pedalling by bringing out the M45 since the Q45 just seems too expensive for an Infinity.

I think Acura has enough respect. It's weird how everyone faults the RL for being FWD and having only 6 cylinders in a field of V8s and RWD, and it's in total need of a redesign...but guess what?! People still buy them! My head always turn when I see someone drive by with a newly purchased RL. Personally I wouldn't buy the current RL (not that I could afford it anyway). But I think Acura has some respect, enough for it to warrant a higher priced sedan. Just like the NSX in its hey days, as long as the product can match the competition, I don't think the brand matters as much. Of course it won't sell as much as the S-Class and 7-Series, those two have reigned supreme for years in this price bracket, but then again the Lexus LS and Audi A8 (certainly not the Infiniti Q45) can't sell as well as MB and BMW either, so if Acura forecasts just the right amount, they won't have too great a risk.
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Old 11-20-2003, 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by Junkster
Junkster, who is now curious as to who this Naptown is.
See, for example, the end of http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...hlight=naptown
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Old 11-21-2003, 08:10 PM
  #356  
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Originally posted by gilboman
the point of that being? the service department at Acura is nice while most of their sales clearly do not understand what customer service means? Go ask around, Lexus and European customer service > Acura customer service.

BMW and MB can move downmarket because they respect their customers and have their act together and actually know what customer service means and give a rats ass about people's experience in their dealers, so when they sell a car, be it a C230 coupe of 320i, the customer is always treated with respect.... i can walk into any MB, Lexus, BMW ask for a test drive of a car, they take photocopy of licence give me keys and tell me to have a good time, return the car, ask if i have any questions and wish me a good day when i tell them i will think about it... I've been to different Acura dealers few times and each time they tried to get me to commit to the car, gauge how serious i am before letting me test drive it and tag along and tell me to don't do this or that... they practically wanted to yell at me when i said i would think about it and kept calling me after i told them i didnt want to be contacted by them agan. it's just in my experience, Acura dealers and sales have no class at all and you don't feel you are getting quality customer service copared to other luxury brands.
I don't post here much, I just read the board every day. But I couldn't pass this stupid quote "European customer service > Acura customer service".

My fiance bought a Mini from BMW dealership about 7 month ago (and no, the dealer didn't give us the keys, he went with us barely fitting in the rear seat). We picket it up from Virginia Beach dealer about 4 hours away from us. Later realized that they didn't activate the day time running lights, so we called back and asked if she could do that at a closer dealer to us - Sterling BMW (1.5 hours). The answer was NO, we had to come back because they were the ones that were supposed to do it. Why can't they send us a refund for this "service" and let us do it on a closer dealership, like Acura did when I had to re-do the alignment?
Anyways, the car had the first problem at about 5k miles - some stability system (forgot the name) stopped working.
We went to this BMW dealership (1.5 hours away) and they said that the car needs some parts to be ordered for replacement. I am not even going to mention how rude the service manager was. So... ok... we scheduled an appointment for the next week. Came back next week, the answer: "oh, sorry, we forgot to order the parts" Ok, maybe it was partly our fault for not calling them first to make sure, but I have never done it when I went to my Acura dealership for something and never had a problem.
Anyways, we didn't want to drive back and forth 1.5 hours. We ask for a loaner car. Again, service manager (or whoever he was) was a complete @@shole. And guess what we got??? We got a freaking Ford Escort with 20K miles on it! How's that for a freaking service? I get either RSX/TSX or TL for a loaner.

Just a week ago the Mini died while driving, then, after turning it back on, it worked again. (In addition driver's power window motor is very loud). My fiance called Sterling dealer and once again they were really rude to her.

I have never seen anything worse in terms of service. I have been on many Lexus/Acura dealerships and they are so much better than the two BMW that I mentioned.

At this moment we really don't know what to do about this Mini, we have only 2 dealerships to choose from and they are both horrible, neither of us want to talk to those morons. Fiance was choosing between RSX and Mini. Now she says that she will never buy another BMW again and I agree!

So please shut up about “respect” and “understanding” of European dealerships!
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Old 11-21-2003, 08:46 PM
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Don't worry about what Gilboman says....he just likes to talk out of his a$$. He thinks the world starts with RWD and ends with BMW.
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Old 11-21-2003, 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by T-R
So please shut up about “respect” and “understanding” of European dealerships!
VW is not BMW, but it is trying to move upscale. I'll chip in that we repeatedly had the most horrendous experiences with the VW dealer in NC that we used.
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Old 11-22-2003, 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by T-R
I don't post here much, I just read the board every day. But I couldn't pass this stupid quote "European customer service > Acura customer service".

My fiance bought a Mini from BMW dealership about 7 month ago (and no, the dealer didn't give us the keys, he went with us barely fitting in the rear seat). We picket it up from Virginia Beach dealer about 4 hours away from us. Later realized that they didn't activate the day time running lights, so we called back and asked if she could do that at a closer dealer to us - Sterling BMW (1.5 hours). The answer was NO, we had to come back because they were the ones that were supposed to do it. Why can't they send us a refund for this "service" and let us do it on a closer dealership, like Acura did when I had to re-do the alignment?
Anyways, the car had the first problem at about 5k miles - some stability system (forgot the name) stopped working.
We went to this BMW dealership (1.5 hours away) and they said that the car needs some parts to be ordered for replacement. I am not even going to mention how rude the service manager was. So... ok... we scheduled an appointment for the next week. Came back next week, the answer: "oh, sorry, we forgot to order the parts" Ok, maybe it was partly our fault for not calling them first to make sure, but I have never done it when I went to my Acura dealership for something and never had a problem.
Anyways, we didn't want to drive back and forth 1.5 hours. We ask for a loaner car. Again, service manager (or whoever he was) was a complete @@shole. And guess what we got??? We got a freaking Ford Escort with 20K miles on it! How's that for a freaking service? I get either RSX/TSX or TL for a loaner.

Just a week ago the Mini died while driving, then, after turning it back on, it worked again. (In addition driver's power window motor is very loud). My fiance called Sterling dealer and once again they were really rude to her.

I have never seen anything worse in terms of service. I have been on many Lexus/Acura dealerships and they are so much better than the two BMW that I mentioned.

At this moment we really don't know what to do about this Mini, we have only 2 dealerships to choose from and they are both horrible, neither of us want to talk to those morons. Fiance was choosing between RSX and Mini. Now she says that she will never buy another BMW again and I agree!

So please shut up about “respect” and “understanding” of European dealerships!
your one experience means absoultly nothing... ask around on avg..ACura has no service period.. there are always anomolies...
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Old 11-22-2003, 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by justinjsw
Don't worry about what Gilboman says....he just likes to talk out of his a$$. He thinks the world starts with RWD and ends with BMW.
Just appreciate a better car when you see one...
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