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Old 10-13-2003, 02:37 PM
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Related links:
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6497

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/we....RWdm_DSM.html


Let's not overlook the fact that Honda jumped from 12th to 7th this year. Acura at #10 still tops Toyota at #17, Nissan at #14 and Mazda at #20 on the list.

It seems to me like this list is pretty wishy-washy, and a lot of it is a direct relation to the amount of advertising by a particular brand. Honda/Acura doesn't offer huge incentives or long warranties, so that may hurt the rankings somewhat.
I think the fact that Honda/Acura has 4 of the 10 "hottest" cars in the US is a more significant gauge into their success.

Basically, I think this USA Today article was grasping for an angle. I feel it could have just as easily been titled "Acura back on the onramp, revving it's precision engines to new limits with the TSX, MDX and TL"

I don't like SUVs, so the fact that Acura doesn't have a massive lineup doesn't matter to me.

My main Acura beefs:
Do something with the NSX already
How long is the RL gonna linger without significant change?

My .02

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Old 10-13-2003, 04:10 PM
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v8 sedans like the 540i and gs430 don't sell all that well so its not really worth unless you're sharing v8 engines between that model and a fullsize luxury car on top like a 7-series.
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Old 10-13-2003, 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Black CL-S 4-Life
If Acura doesn't put a V8 in the next RL it will fail also. Why is Acura not developing a V8??? Don't they realize on a large SUV a V8 engine is a must.
Because they will go the hybrid way. You wont need a V8 2 years from now. You'll see.
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Old 10-13-2003, 06:37 PM
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what would you rather have when towing a large boat?

an suv with a v8, or a v6 w/ IMA, that during the first half of a really long hill, will pull like a v8, but the 2nd half of the hill will pull like a v6 since the batteries were just drained?

a company can be green with a v8. Toyota is doing it...their status from having v8's and rwd (success with lexus) is allowing them to invest in research and technology and to take more risks with their "green" cars like the prius. have you seen the multi-page ads in the magazines for the next-gen prius?
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Old 10-13-2003, 06:57 PM
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Acura should reintroduce names back into the US market (ie Integra, Legend, Vigor, etc.) This will help their cars establish some sort of identity, especially since many still remember and accociate the "Legend" with Acura when it was on top of the Japanese luxury market. I understand that Acura wants to badge their cars with numerics simular to other luxury manufactures, but this is foolish because at this point they are simply not seen as prestigous as Lexus, Infinity, etc.. Ever since Acura has rebadged their cars, their sales have been at a free fall, and I feel this has not been due to a lack of quality..like the article mentions, there is nothing wrong with their cars (the 04 TL is great, as was the CL, RL, and previous TL). I have always enjoyed Acura cars, and I would buy another one, but at this point, Acura needs a total shift in marketing if they are to save their image.
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Old 10-13-2003, 10:00 PM
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reminds me of the 3. look at the line by the door handles.
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:21 AM
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I agree with Wawa. The TSX changed everything. IMO the TL is now the V6 version of the TSX. The RL and NSX are sorry-assed neglected models that should be replaced or retired. You can't build a luxury car line with those two cars at the top! The TSX and TL make me think that Acura has a future, but before the TSX came out I would never have considered an Acura.
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by Iceman
...... IMO the TL is now the V6 version of the TSX......
Yeah. I don't think any of us mean anything like this literally, but as I've said, there's a high chance that they will be viewed less as different models than as different trim levels of the same car.
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Old 10-14-2003, 08:02 AM
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Not one mention of the CL in that whole article?
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:22 AM
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acura should NOT re-introduce names back into it's lineup.

Yes, names would've been better from the beginning, but it's too late to change back now. Any attempt to would be like shooting itself in the foot AGAIN because people are just getting used to the alphanumeric names.

i think the problem is that acura and honda are too much of the same company. if honda wants to be "green":, then leave that to the honda lineup. if they want acura to be the perf-lux line, then they have to put performance and lux into their car without trying to be "green".
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:43 AM
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Well, I'm going to have to agree with Audi looks vs Acura TL looks thing. I still think the A4 is an elegant, classic design, while the TL looks great for now, but will it still look good in four years?

Audi is more of a conservative look whereas the TL is more racy, but for a sedan, that's not necessarily what some people want.

Oh well.
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Old 10-14-2003, 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
this is exactly honda/acura's problem..honda ONLY HAS ECONOMY CARS...no parts bin for acura to use to make real luxury cars..toyota on the other hand has a huge selection of different platform RWD,AWD, V6, I4, I6,V8, factroy turbo, factory supercharger etc....6spd auto, SMG tranny etc... you can modify a accord or pilot to be entry level luxury cars by just putting in features..but when you enter the real luxury market and leave entry luxury...sharing essentially the same car as the econo honda brand just doesnt work.
First of all, anyone who says Toyota doesn't have superior parts bin compared to other makers is smokin some good crack... high quality stuff. Toyota did not become the third largest automaker in the US by being like others. They win any quality and reliability ratings out there. And they do have superior parts in having a variety of platforms to work with (they just don't used them all).
For instance, Toyota doesn't feature a RWD sedan or car, but the Lexus line is full of em. On the other hand, there is no AWD sedans in the US market of a sedan within Lexus. If no one knows this fact, Toyota is the most dominant automaker in their own soil as well.

But what I disagree with gilboman is on econo based luxury cars. The one and only example that I could come up with in the US is Audi. Audi shares alot of underpinnings on their automobiles with VW, and the Phaeton, coming soon here, is basically an VW-ed Audi. And you can't call VW's anything but econo boxes.

European car companies always use econo parts for all their luxury cars and visa versa. Alfa Romeo is known to use Fiat parts now, Renault and Vauxhall share platforms and parts, and the list goes on and on. And in most instances, euro companies have econo cars and luxury in the same brand line up. VW is now trying this concept worldwide (personally, I think it will fail, but that's another thread).

To turn a mass market car into a luxury market car, there is only a few things that are really needed. The main things that I can think of is higher quality control in construction, upgrade in interior materials, and better quality in suspension and sound deadening. Most platforms today are made for high quality cars and shared through to the econo cars, no the other way around (Honda's world platform is one of the best).

I think this is what Lexus does so well. They had a special on what goes on in a Lexus factory, and it showed how detailed they are. They make sure that employees put panels together with great accuracy, even having a count on how many times they turn some screw to tighten something. They never use a mallet to make things fit (BMW still does this on some models, as well as most US car makers... which explains why they have so many problems). And once, when a certain quality flaw was found on ONE car, the whole assembly line stops and an announcement is made on what error occured on what vehicle by which employee. This obsession for perfection is what drove Lexus to the top.

Junkster, who thinks the Lexus thing was a PBS special, but can't recall.
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Old 10-15-2003, 01:20 PM
  #253  
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Originally posted by darth62
2) The TSX is one of the hottest selling cars in America (in terms of average days on a dealer lots
This is less clear considering that the TSX is a low-volume vehicle. The figure could be a consequence of the supply being fairly close to the demand.

(e.g. if you did nothing else but increase production, then this number would go up)
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Old 10-15-2003, 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by rb1
This is less clear considering that the TSX is a low-volume vehicle. The figure could be a consequence of the supply being fairly close to the demand.

(e.g. if you did nothing else but increase production, then this number would go up)
Well, that's true for any car.

From what you're saying, the only numbers that matter are total sales figures. This survey chooses to look at something else, and it's valid and of interest.
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Old 10-16-2003, 12:17 AM
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BTW, dang near ALL new model cars sell strongly. And Junksta and I need to start a focking car review magazine. In doing research on Lexus and Toyota, their philosohpy on engineering is incredible. They also treat suppliers as PARTNERS and not as people trying to rob them. You screw the suppliers, u screw youself in the long run. You get what u pay for.
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Old 10-16-2003, 12:58 AM
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I would really like to see Acura ramp up production of the TSX, which I think is their best car. (The TL is a nice enough car, but Honda outdid itself with the TSX.) Why not offer two or three different TSX models, and really go after Audi?
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Old 10-16-2003, 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by Iceman
I would really like to see Acura ramp up production of the TSX, which I think is their best car. (The TL is a nice enough car, but Honda outdid itself with the TSX.) Why not offer two or three different TSX models, and really go after Audi?
Not gonna happen, though, is it?

Maybe we should suggest what those models would be anyway:

(1) TSX
(2) TSX-S
(3) TSX-R (yeah, both) j/k
(4) TSX-C (2-door)
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Old 10-16-2003, 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
BTW, dang near ALL new model cars sell strongly. And Junksta and I need to start a focking car review magazine. In doing research on Lexus and Toyota, their philosohpy on engineering is incredible. They also treat suppliers as PARTNERS and not as people trying to rob them. You screw the suppliers, u screw youself in the long run. You get what u pay for.
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Old 10-16-2003, 10:56 AM
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Ah, don't quit your day job
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Old 10-16-2003, 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by larchmont
Well, that's true for any car.

From what you're saying, the only numbers that matter are total sales figures. This survey chooses to look at something else, and it's valid and of interest.
I think all that "days on the lot" tells you is how the supply compares to the demand and is meaningless without considering the sales volume. In fact, the lower the sales volume, the less impressive "low days on the lot is".

You could produce only a few cars of a model that is even halfway popular and the "days on the lot" figure would be very low. In fact, if demand (whatever that happens to be) exceeds supply, then the figure drops to near zero as all the cars get snapped up by people on waiting lists.

If supply greatly exceeds demand, then the opposite occurs.

On the other hand, if you build a bunch of cars and still achieve low days on the lot, then you've got a clear winner.
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by larchmont
Not gonna happen, though, is it?

Maybe we should suggest what those models would be anyway:

(1) TSX
(2) TSX-S
(3) TSX-R (yeah, both) j/k
(4) TSX-C (2-door)
You know, they should really think about increasing their entry level market. Heck, their in the business of the value luxury bracket right? Heck, they can get rid of the current RSX and replace it with a TSX coupe (just keep the RSX name of course). Isn't the RSX up for redesign soon anyhoot?

I would like an AWD, if they could with the chassis they have. Did anyone find out if they will ever bring the wagon? Hey, how about a five door version? An S and R badge would be nice. They have the diesel in Europe, but I don't think they would have a market for it here.

Junkster, who is going to med school and doesn't have time for a magazine... unless the pay is good.:P
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Old 10-16-2003, 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by rb1
I think all that "days on the lot" tells you is how the supply compares to the demand and is meaningless without considering the sales volume. In fact, the lower the sales volume, the less impressive "low days on the lot is"......
That last part is definitely true, but I disagree that the other stat is "meaningless" without considering sales volume. It does tell us something, and it's of interest -- which I guess is why they do it, and why people are interested in it.
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Old 10-16-2003, 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by larchmont
That last part is definitely true, but I disagree that the other stat is "meaningless" without considering sales volume. It does tell us something, and it's of interest -- which I guess is why they do it, and why people are interested in it.
I still think it's meaningless by itself, but we can just agree to disagree.

I certainly don't see it can be used to justify statements like "2) The TSX is one of the hottest selling cars in America (in terms of average days on a dealer lots".

If I made 1 car and it was presold, would it be a "hot" car? Dunno.

If I make 15,000 cars and this is about what the demand is so they don't spend much time on the lot (e.g. TSX @ 14 days), does this make it a "hot" car? If so, the higher volume cars might be "hotter" even if they spend a day or two longer on the lot. A hypothetical 75,000 cars/annually @ 16 days average actually seems more impressive.

Hence my statement that the figure by itself tells you very little.
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Old 10-16-2003, 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by rb1
I still think it's meaningless by itself, but we can just agree to disagree.

I certainly don't see it can be used to justify statements like "2) The TSX is one of the hottest selling cars in America (in terms of average days on a dealer lots".

If I made 1 car and it was presold, would it be a "hot" car? Dunno.

If I make 15,000 cars and this is about what the demand is so they don't spend much time on the lot (e.g. TSX @ 14 days), does this make it a "hot" car? If so, the higher volume cars might be "hotter" even if they spend a day or two longer on the lot. A hypothetical 75,000 cars/annually @ 16 days average actually seems more impressive.

Hence my statement that the figure by itself tells you very little.
JD Powers puts this list out monthly and it shows up in the WSJ and other places. I assume someone is interested and the list has validity as an indicator of which cars are in high demand by consumers and are "hot" sellers relative to other vehicles in the same market segments. Otherwise, why bother? Perfect example: 04 MDX's are selling right at MSRP again. MDX is on the list. XC 90's are being discounted. XC 90 is not on the list.
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Old 10-17-2003, 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
JD Powers puts this list out monthly and it shows up in the WSJ and other places. I assume someone is interested and the list has validity as an indicator of which cars are in high demand by consumers and are "hot" sellers relative to other vehicles in the same market segments. Otherwise, why bother?
Read what I said. I didn't say it was invalid, only that it seems useful only in the context of other sales data.

Surely these rags don't put out a list that shows only "average days on the lot" without posting other figures (probably including the monthly sales volume).
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Old 10-19-2003, 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by agisd
Can he aswer this question:

Why the S2000 is a Honda and not an Acura???
There was a fight over the S2000 being a honda, but in the end it was sold as a honda to celebrate hondas 50th anniversary i believe.
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Old 10-20-2003, 12:21 PM
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I also think it is too late to reintroduce the old Legend, Vigor, and Integra names back to the lineup. It was a big mistake in the first place to drop them but now the public will get confused even more if Acura drops the TL, RL, RSX names, etc.

I personally don't like Audi's stylying, looks too much like a glorifed VWs IMHO. But to each his own I guess....
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Old 10-21-2003, 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by rb1
I still think it's meaningless by itself, but we can just agree to disagree.

I certainly don't see it can be used to justify statements like "2) The TSX is one of the hottest selling cars in America (in terms of average days on a dealer lots".

If I made 1 car and it was presold, would it be a "hot" car? Dunno.

If I make 15,000 cars and this is about what the demand is so they don't spend much time on the lot (e.g. TSX @ 14 days), does this make it a "hot" car? If so, the higher volume cars might be "hotter" even if they spend a day or two longer on the lot. A hypothetical 75,000 cars/annually @ 16 days average actually seems more impressive.

Hence my statement that the figure by itself tells you very little.
First of all, the statement that about days on the lot is accurate, so I'm not sure how it needs to be justified. It would have been one thing if I said "the TSX is the hottest selling car in America" without telling the reader exactly what I meant.

Second, there are a number of good examples of low volume cars that currently have long times on dealer lots (like the Saab 9-5 and the Infiniti M45).

All that said, it is a bit more impressive when a car sells in large volumes at fast rates. But, that is a moot point, since the entire discussion is about low volume upscale vehicles. Other than the 3-series, there isn't a vehicle in the TSX's class that sells a whole lot more than 25,000 a year. And, all of those vehicels spend more time ont eh dealer's lot than the TSX. Go check the average time until a sale fo the A4 or 9-3, for example.
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:59 AM
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I see Acura importing more TSXs next year to meet demand, but about other cars in their line up.....ah la the RL, which is old, dated, and ugly, it can't keep up with the Lexus LS430, Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 series, those cars are much more refined than the RL. Plus, I kinda of find Acura's line up pretty dull besides the MDX, NSX, and the TSX. They need to step up to the plate and build a RWD car or an enthusiast car that makes their name known. The Acura name just doesn't have the prestige as would a Mercedes or a Lexus would have.
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Old 10-22-2003, 10:38 PM
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hmm it would be interesting to see a variety of TSXs kinda of like the 3 series. the 3series is pretty much most of the bimmers on the road so imagine what the the tsx can do for acura

tsx
tsx-s (220hp)
tsx-wagon
tsx-wagon-S(220hp)
tsx-IMA
tsx-IMA tuned like that famous concept one with the fender flares (M3 fighter)

tsx coupe (i think the next rsx will have the new acura family face so no need)
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by d-rock
hmm it would be interesting to see a variety of TSXs kinda of like the 3 series. the 3series is pretty much most of the bimmers on the road so imagine what the the tsx can do for acura

tsx
tsx-s (220hp)
tsx-wagon
tsx-wagon-S(220hp)
tsx-IMA
tsx-IMA tuned like that famous concept one with the fender flares (M3 fighter)

tsx coupe (i think the next rsx will have the new acura family face so no need)
Great idea - if they kept the options list down to a bare minimum, as it is now, for each version.
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Old 10-24-2003, 05:53 PM
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you know, a couple of years ago people wouldn't even be mentioning Infiniti. They've totally turned things around with Nissan in the past couple years, the same should be possible for Acura with some better marketing.
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Old 10-25-2003, 01:52 PM
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I don't know about all those versions (greater variety in the inventory has to increase costs) but dropping in a 220+ HP V6 into the current nice-looking TSX and adding power passenger seat and heated mirrors would IMHO make the TSX hard to resist. Would definitely want to increase production too.
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Old 10-25-2003, 05:41 PM
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Yup, they did that. They even gave the V6 version of the TSX its own name: TL.
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Old 10-25-2003, 09:42 PM
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Honda is a great product company but their choice of dealers is questionable. They should have been less ambitious and sign only high satisfaction dealerships. They seem to forget customer appreciation is just as improtant as product satisafaction.
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Old 10-25-2003, 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by Junkster
You know, they should really think about increasing their entry level market. Heck, their in the business of the value luxury bracket right? Heck, they can get rid of the current RSX and replace it with a TSX coupe (just keep the RSX name of course). Isn't the RSX up for redesign soon anyhoot?

I would like an AWD, if they could with the chassis they have. Did anyone find out if they will ever bring the wagon? Hey, how about a five door version? An S and R badge would be nice. They have the diesel in Europe, but I don't think they would have a market for it here.

Junkster, who is going to med school and doesn't have time for a magazine... unless the pay is good.:P
I always worry about folks who speak in third person.

I think Honda made a mistake by just having the Acura name brand here. I've never been impressed with Lexus/Toyota styling but I think they did the right thing by making Lexus worldwide. I saw a Honda badge on an NSX in the Bahamas and..well...it just didn't sit well with me. Love the TSX but knowing that it is the Euro Accord doesn't seem right to me either, but it didn't stop me from ordering the TSX.
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Old 10-26-2003, 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by duugk
I always worry about folks who speak in third person.

I think Honda made a mistake by just having the Acura name brand here. I've never been impressed with Lexus/Toyota styling but I think they did the right thing by making Lexus worldwide. I saw a Honda badge on an NSX in the Bahamas and..well...it just didn't sit well with me. Love the TSX but knowing that it is the Euro Accord doesn't seem right to me either, but it didn't stop me from ordering the TSX.
What's wrong with TSX being Euro Accord?
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Old 10-26-2003, 02:20 AM
  #278  
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Like most car companies, Honda doesn't give you much choices in the US. In Europe the list given by d-rock almost exists. You have the plain Jane Accord (160HP - sound familiar - same engine as the US Accord), the Type S (190HP), the touring (station wagon) in both versions. The only thing missing is the 6 cyl version. And of course within each version there are a host of options (not just NAV). I guess car companies (and I think other industries) seem to think that they are better off giving US consumers a "package" deal at a better price than give you choices at an inflated price. One of the reasons BWMs are expensive is the lack of "packaging". In Europe the list of options on the new 5 series is 4 pages and over 50 items! To "package" it better for the US, the US 5 series has only one page of options with about a dozen items. So you want more options and raise the price of the car or you want a package deal (inlcuding some sutff you may or may not want) and a lower price?
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Old 10-26-2003, 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by duugk
I always worry about folks who speak in third person.

I think Honda made a mistake by just having the Acura name brand here. I've never been impressed with Lexus/Toyota styling but I think they did the right thing by making Lexus worldwide. I saw a Honda badge on an NSX in the Bahamas and..well...it just didn't sit well with me. Love the TSX but knowing that it is the Euro Accord doesn't seem right to me either, but it didn't stop me from ordering the TSX.
honda isn't the only car company that rebadges cars. toyota does the same thing with its cars for example the GS300/430 is the aristo in japan and the RX330 is the harrier, or how bout inifinti's G35 sedan badged as a nissian skyline. only now toyota has decided hey lets try the lexus brand in japan.

hmm i dunno where people is gettin the V6 tsx off my list but i never mentioned anything about a tsx V6 cause i know it won't fit thats y i put IMA instead of V6. with IMA i think theres more benefits than the V6 for one it would be AWD drive and it will have loads of torque
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Old 10-26-2003, 06:32 PM
  #280  
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Originally posted by Aegean_Blue6
you know, a couple of years ago people wouldn't even be mentioning Infiniti. They've totally turned things around with Nissan in the past couple years, the same should be possible for Acura with some better marketing.
And better product.
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