wawa

Well.. both RWD or FWD has advantages and disadvantages. Honda/Acura makes the best FWD in the industry. I am sure Acura FWD will be able to beat a FWD BMW or FWD Audi or FWD Lexus.

Minch00

On the whole RWD/AWD/FWD debate:

I feel that a sports car should have RWD. There is simply no subsititue for the feeling of making a turn and feeling the back end start to slide through a turn, but knowing you have it all under control due to proper braking techniques. However, if you want to bring engine placement into the discussion, I feel the only true sports cars are Mid-Engine, rearwheel drive exotics. The ideal weight distrobution and the excellent feel from that style of car cannot be beat. However, the only affordable one (Toyota MR-S) looks like complete ASS.

However, Honda/Acura does not market things as "sport sedans", Auto Mags and consumers do. They are "sporty" sedans. The Y makes a huge difference. I mean, you can have a "sporty" car and still have the luxury and safety of something like FWD. If a car can do 0-60 in less than 6 or so seconds, that is something to be proud of. You wouldn't consider a Ford Excursion to be sporty would you? Anything that feels quick and nimble should be considered "sporty" But a true "sports car" has to have a certain feel that only RWD and huge torque and horsepower numbers can provide.

Acura just needs better marketing, and a true redefinition of self. Their two flagships, the RL and the NSX, need to give something people to dream about, and then when they can see a car similar to them on the showroom floor that is within their price range with only a few less ameneties, then they will be excited and purchase them. Give the NSX a new body, a 400+ HP iVTEC V8, give the same engine to an AWD RL that doesn't look like something my grandmother would drive with an interior on par with the TL/TSX in both cars, and Acura will be a contender again.

Their pricing strategy doesn't make much sense. For $45,000 the RL would be the last thing I would buy, and for $90,000 a Porsche GT3 sounds better than an NSX (save the NSX-S0). Get real Acura, make your cars reflect their price points.

heyitsme

huh? i said acura was doing the same thing, as in marketing the tsx as a sports sedan, the same damn thing infiniti did. i think its a double standard to say one is this group without the other being in the same group. i could care less what acura wants to market their cars as.

1SICKLEX

Sorry dude, they do. Acura management is on crack, and if u look at TSX, TL and EVEN TL adds, they are maketed as luxury performance or TRUE sport sedans. Go look at a recent Car and Driver, look at the ads...

Then u got clueless owners buying em thinking the same shit arguing here.

Hell look at how the Altima is marketed, as a sports sedan. And in every review (it has YET to win a review or come close to winning one)it is seen as a big fat whale.

Lexus TRIED that shiat with the ES 300 and I KNOW, it ain't no damn sports sedan.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

the only true 4-doors sport sedan is: BMW M5, Period.

Next, is the Audi RS6

then, you can have the wana bees... EVO 8, WRX Sti, RX-8.

Ah... how did I forget the E55 AMG!

MaximaPower

so wat's the definition of "sports sedan"?

btw, EVOs and STIs are sport sedans

Nashua_Night_Hawk

True, I meant: "Luxury Sport Sedans"
EVO and Sti are more like "streetable" rally cars.

1SICKLEX

Yes technically speaking, the M5 and 540 are the only TRUE sport luxury sedans for offering a manual. The CTS-V is close, except that interior is not a luxury car interior whatsoever.

1SICKLEX

I do agree with wawa that Honda/Acura makes some of the best FWD cars and the ABSOLUTE best 4-cylinder engines.

gavriil

My opinion is that a luxury automaker does not necessarily need RWD to succeed in mere sales numbers. Most people dont understand the difference and the pros and cons anyway. The main problem with Acura is that their cars have blant and super conservative styling. The new TL is barely trying to break that "record".

Imagine the G35C with FWD or FWD and AWD as an option. Would it not sell as well? I bet it would have sold about as well. Plus Infiniti would have been making more money due to the car costing less to them due to packaging and other reasons.

Look at the Mini. No luxury but handles like it's on tracks. You dont need RWD to make a car handle well. Tons of examples. Just make it look great and the rest Acura has (reliability, powertrains, nice interiors, customer service, etc).

RWD will make a difference on the track, or racing. But not in every day driving conditions. If anything FWD is better for every day driving and AWD even better (as long as you have torquey engines).

AcuraFan

1SICKLEX

I disagree. If a luxury automaker did not need RWD, then Benz, BMW, Jag etc would have all or some FWD cars.

Jaguar's reseach again supports this. When they brought over the X-type here, market research indicated people would not buy a FWD Jag because FWD and Luxury and Jaguar do not mix. Hence standard AWD (the Jag is based off the Ford Mondeo). Look at Lincoln, Caddy, Lexus, Infiniti, all bringing RWD cars over.

The G35 would have sold but not gotten rave reviews nor win Car of the Year nor be taken seriously by enthusiests if it was FWD. Imagine the SAME marketing ploys with a FWD G35? Also, imagine a FWD G35 with that crappy interior. At least with the RWD you can call it a trade-off.

The Mini is what , 155 inches long, it could be one-wheel drive and it would handle like it's on rails.

And for those that own(owned) FWD vs RWD, FWD feels plain ol cheap compared to a RWD powered car. Hell, Kias, Corollas, Civics, Hyandai's all FWD.

BMWs, Bentley's, Ferraris, Aston Martins, BEnz's RWD. Even the Acura NSX.

Which one would u follow?

gavriil

Acura In Search of an Identity

Japan’s first luxury marque seeks to define itself, while sticking with its trademarks.

ByPaul A. Eisenstein (2003-10-13)

When the new TL starts rolling into dealer showrooms in the weeks to come, Acura buyers will be in for a pleasant surprise. The new sedan is stylish, sporty and loaded with a variety of innovative features, including the automotive world's first DVD-Audio system. The Japanese automaker has invested a lot in the TL because it has a lot riding on the new car.

It's been nearly two decades since Honda Motor Co. launched Acura, the first Japanese luxury brand, with the entry-lux Integra and the Legend luxury sedan. Despite initial skepticism - and there was plenty of it - Acura scored a hit. It also opened the door for other Asian luxury marques, such as Toyota's Lexus division.

While Lexus has surged to the top of the sales charts, Acura's initial sizzle has turned cold. It currently lags in fifth place among the upscale marques on sale in the U.S. While it's ahead of Ford Motor Co.'s struggling Lincoln brand, Acura volume dipped to 126,227 cars and trucks during the first nine months of this year, roughly 50 percent less than Lexus.

Other metrics are equally grim. The Acura badge slipped from fourth to tenth this year in the Total Value Index compiled by the market research firm, Strategic Vision. That's a measure of the value owners place on their vehicles.

"We lost our way, quite honestly," acknowledges Robert Bienenfeld, Acura's senior manager for product planning. It will take more than the TL's audio system to put the carmaker back on track, analysts caution.

Impossible mission
When Acura first debuted, back in 1986, it faced a seemingly impossible task: taking on well-entrenched domestic brands, like Cadillac and Lincoln, as well as snooty German imports, such as Mercedes-Benz and BMW. But the stylish and well-engineered Legend struck a responsive chord.

Unexpectedly, Acura killed off the Legend name, replacing it with a mix of alphanumeric alternatives, like TL and RL. Company officials insisted they wanted to focus attention on the Acura brand, rather than an individual model. But they did little more than confuse consumers, laments Dan Gorrell, vice president at Strategic Vision.

"They muddied things…and just don't have a clear identity," he says, a situation only made worse, Gorrell adds, by the fact that many of the products that followed the Legend were little more than rebadged Hondas. Even the new TSX is essentially an Accord clone - though in this case, it's based on a European version not sold in the U.S.

"There's nothing inherently wrong with their vehicles," echoes Chuck Schuster, a director at J.D. Power and Associates, but "the lack of any real image is what I'd be worried about."

That's a difficult issue to overcome in a segment built on brand image. High-profile marques, such as Mercedes, can command sizable premiums simply because of the badge on their grilles. Acura products may be more expensive than Honda's, but they're not in the same league as other top-line nameplates.

Up, up and away
One thing that would help, observers generally agree, would be a move even more upmarket. That's likely to happen with the next-generation RL, but unless there's a last-minute surprise, Tom Elliott, head of Honda's overall U.S. operations, says there'll be no V-8 engine in the lineup. That's a major mistake, says Schuster, as Americans see the V-8 and even larger engines as symbols of luxury. Lexus, by comparison, is developing a V-12.

That gap at Acura is "irony at its finest," according to Schuster, because Honda often bills itself as an engine, rather than an automobile, company.

Acura's product and powertrain strategy may simply be the result of Honda's broader problems. Though significantly more healthy than the American Big Three, the automaker is having major problems on a global basis, and its new CEO has made cost-cutting a top priority.

Acura officials insist that won't affect future product plans. And if the TL is an example, the automaker has clearly invested heavily to give the new car some emotional appeal. "We wanted to enhance prestige through increased performance and technology," Bienenfeld stresses, as he shows off the new car.

The new car now pumps out 270 horsepower, compared to 225 from the old TL, and 260 from the sporty Type-S. It's got a new navigation system, and the first mobile application of DVD-Audio, a 5.1-channel system developed by five-time Grammy winner Elliot Scheiner.

The combination, Acura hopes, will attract a younger, better-educated and more affluent buyer. Of course, that's similar to what most automakers seem to be seeking these days. To lure them in, Acura will have to address other issues with the brand, analysts emphasize. Like Honda, it's in the higher tier of quality, but Acura lags well behind both Lexus and Nissan's Infiniti division. That reflects, in part, problems with the Honda brand's dealer network.

Unlike Lexus, which hand-picked only the best American retailers, Acura didn't really put a premium on customer service until it became obvious that was a way to differentiate itself. Now it must train, reward and, if necessary, dump unwilling dealers.

Acura's turnaround won't come quickly. Unlike its competitors, it's been slow to respond to the boom in light truck sales. The MDX sport-utility vehicle is its only entry and is now getting old. Yet a second model is still two years from market, according to Honda officials.

"They've got to come up with must-have products," says luxury market analyst Susan Jacobs. And that means products reflecting the American vision of luxury.

Intriguingly, at a recent TL preview, virtually all the corporate faces were Western. "We have a lot of autonomy," noted Bienenfeld. Honda gives a lot more power to its regional operations than most other luxury makes, especially the Japanese. That could be good news in the long run.

The TL was designed and engineered primarily in the U.S., and is being built here, as well. Given the right resources, future products should be more in tune with American buyers than past Accord clones. And that could help Acura regain its lost footing.

gavriil

By the way, on I55 yesterday and while driving north towards down-town Chicago, I see a billboard ad of the new 5 series. The car is literally a sketch and not a photo of the actual car. The car looks nothing like the actual car, a lot more sportier and for those that have seen the car, it is obvious the ad agency hired to run this promotion, is TRYING to hide the real looks of the car. I am not BMW-bashing here. Totally true. I wish I took a photo.

Then a few miles later another billboard with the new TL on (real photo showing the car from the side like the pic above). The car takes about 90% of the space available (rest is some marketing blurb which I did not read).

I say again. This car looks great from the side. It looks more Audi than ever (espcially A4) and actually it looks better than Audis.

Nice first step Acura. Now a lot more work has to be done from here on. And I doubt you'll be able to catch up in time. Prove me wrong though.

Zapata

yea seems acura is trying to where audi is.....

heyitsme

well acura has fwd and they aren't doin so hot, so whats the next theory if it isn't the fwd thats holding them back..

LED Master

See the new article on Acura's direction and the new TL / RL at the following car connection site



http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6510

AcuraFan

Wow, do you even follow the Acura line? Like many of us have said before on this and other threads...the reason Acuras aren't selling so hot is because
1) They don't look very exciting.
2) The level of luxury has been sub par lately.
3) The marketing department sucks.

The CL, TL, RL and RSX are all so bland looking inside and out that no one pays attention to them. However, the TSX and new TL are much better...much more exciting. And the new RL is on the way. I think it's only a matter of time before we see Acura's sales turning around. I think Acura is finally taking their cars (and their respective markets) seriously. The bland days are over.

heyitsme

i disagree, i've seen both also and i think the bmw ad is better and the car looks better. the 5-series shown looks like the real deal to me, the rims are blurred to show motion.

evertime i see the tl ad, i think how boring the car looks in it. the front is the 'stylish' end of the car but they show the rear profile, i see no audi or german cues, maybe camry.

Raheel

This is the 3rd Repost of this review......

heyitsme

coulda fooled me, from the threads i've seen acura has the best interiors and the designs kick ass just like fwd kicks ass.

AcuraFan

Oh, I forgot #4...
4) Lack of SUVs. The SUV market is the #1 selling segment in the country and Acura didn't come out with a 100% Honda made SUV until just a couple years ago. I think that hurt their image for years. Brisk SUV sales translate to a better looking bottom line which translate to a better market share and better public visibility.

Zapata

introduction of AWD has a platform constant and NOT RWD will put acura on the path that Audi took sometime ago.

agisd

Can he aswer this question:

Why the S2000 is a Honda and not an Acura???

gavriil

We might be referring to different ads.

gavriil

gavriil

Because its character is much closer to Honda than that of Acura. Look at the interior. It's spartan. How can that interior be an Acura interior? Also, noise levels, inside the car. Totally unacceptable for Acura standards. The S2000 is not built as a luxury vehicle like Acuras are.

gilboman

not a FWD BMW...the mini

agisd

Give me a break. Is the RSX a luxury vehicle?

What's wrong with the interior of the S2k? It is better than that of the Boxster...

It's just the politics of the dealerships...They need a certain mix of cars to be financial viable.

Honda does not have many high end luxury cars (like Lexus does). Here is the problem...

LED Master

Are you sure, this just came out today, it is not a review of the TL, but where Acura is going in general. The other car connection article was writen on the 10th.

I checked other posts, it was not the same (but has the same photo).

Thanks,

JeffPhx

There were three posting of the TL review, but this is not the review. It is an article on Acura in general.

I agree with the article in general and think Acura is on the correct track after being "lost" for a few years. But needs to bring out the products soon, I am referring to the new RL and second SUV. Then update the MDX and NSX. From what I have heard about Acura limiting the "base" RSX and focusing on the RSX-S, I am guessing we will not see another RSX redesign. I bet they will just let the RSX kind of fade out and the replace (Integra elsewhere) might show up as a Honda. I'm just hoping Acura brings out an AWD RL version with some decent power and features to give it a flagship sedan model, but it doesn't have to be aimed at the 7 Series and S-class though. More towards A6, 5 Series and E-class.

gavriil

Although I am one to have been calling for the drop of the RSX from the Acura lineup, I still think it qualifies as an entry luxury car (at least in its USAmerican form).

Silver™

Let's hope they do something to improve some of the dealers and bring them up towards Lexus and Infiniti levels...

heyitsme

i not seeing it. this is all i imagine everytime i see it. the tl is rotated more like the camry on the billboard.





i think its stupid on acuras part to be marketing the rear end of this car, thats like bmw marketing the rear end of the 5, not even close to memorable. now if they had this up there it would be a hot ad.

charliemike

The thing that strikes me from this thread is how great the Audi looks on the road and how dated that picture of it looks. I think that the Acura will look better on the road than standing still.

mantis23

Late entry into the suv market is really hurting them. By the time they do eventually arrive with a larger model, it'll be too late. Market share in the suv domain is already slim, and they aren't gonna get much of it unless they make a knockout.

I say just keep the mdx, and fuck adding another larger suv, cause I don't see them contending with the navis, escalades, denalis, lexus etc... it just ain't gonna happen this late in the game.

AcuraFan

The MDX and Pilot were both released pretty late in the game and they're doing quite well. I don't see adding a larger SUV at this point to be a problem...but I'd rather see them develop something smaller (like the RDX I've been hearing about.)

Black CL-S 4-Life

If Acura doesn't put a V8 in the next RL it will fail also. Why is Acura not developing a V8??? Don't they realize on a large SUV a V8 engine is a must.

mantis23

true... true... but images of their last large suv keep popping into my mind (the one that was based off the izusu trooper, SLX?), which sucked.

Based on your point, I guess they do have the potential to enter the large/midsize suv market and succeed. But I just dont see it.

AcuraFan

Honda is a very green company...they want to be portrayed as "Earth friendly" which is why they have more cars that get 30+ mpg than they do SUVs. Building a V8 would go against that image...it's something they've said they don't want to do. I don't think a V6 RL will fail. I think the next generation NSX and RL will showcase the technology of the future, IMA. This technology is more powerful than a V8 but still hold true to the green image.
I can see a V6 RL come out then shortly after (probably a year or two) we'll see an IMA enabled RL. That's why we won't see a V8 at Acura.