TSX will be no help at all. Too few made. Come on they make 400,000 Accords per year and 20,000 TSX --no real money in it.
Volume = money. Acura has these low production niche cars and the TL has to be made in higher numbers to be successful. The old one had sales fall terribly in past few years--despite high content and invoice pricing. REally glorified accords. My TSX seems so much nicer than my 03 accord. MY MDX is a glorifed Pilot but hell that PILOT is just so bland and boxy looking. The MDX may be worth the extra money but Pilot now added heated seats. Next comes a sun roof and soon no reason to buy the MDX. I have heard a rumor that MDX production is going up this year. If so I will buy a 04 Touring when deals can be had.

Acura needs more luxury in its cars. The pleather has to go. My TSX has very nice leather. Way better than my MDX. Hopefully 04 MDX leather is better.

How does this translate into Infiniti still having a Horrible track record???

Sales for Infiniti, the luxury division of NNA, increased 46.8 percent from last September, with 10,523 units sold
-Infiniti sales are up 40.7 percent calendar year-to-date, totaling 89,856 units

I hated the J30 and M30, but...
What made the QX4 suck so bad?.
What made the G20 suck so bad?.

Both cars had outstanding reliability, and a high quality interior.
I think the G20 suffered from a lack of HP...but thats all I can think of.

Actually though, isn't low volume/high margin what the luxury/near luxury marques are all about? 20,000 TSX's obviously doesn't nearly equate to as much total profit as 400,000 Accords but the profit per unit is probably significantly higher (justified completely from the standpoint of a satisfied TSX owner's perspective, of course). Plus, the TSX brings future TL, MDX and RL owners into the fold as an entry level near-lux car. That's kind of an intangible but it has a value. If the TSX is successful, Acura has made a buyer/friend that will stay with them later. As for the fact Acuras may not be as "lux," pleather, etc, seems to me a reasonable compromise if I can get a terrific engine and chassis in a stylish car that's economical to own and drive. Those that want a little more luxury can buy a Lexus, though they WILL pay for it. It's nice we have so many choices - is this a great country or what?
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I think this assault of new Acuras coming forward is directly due to their lost grip on the luxury market. Come on, let's just admit that some of the Acura products offered in the past were very subpar, prime example being the Vigor.
When you think of Japanese luxury these days, Lexus and Infiniti are the first to come into people's minds. I know, some of them are/were overpriced, but they made more progress then Acura. Sure, all three luxury brands get their price advantage from their common-folk badge names with the available parts bin.

But Lexus has the advantage of having Toyota as a parts bin. No matter how boring and bland the Toyota cars are, they are dependable and well built. Ever notice how Toyotas are so much quieter and with less rattle then other Japanese brands? They do spend alot of time in quality.

Nissan, on the other hand, has discovered that they can try the 'sporty' aspect of luxury that Lexus can't seem to get ahold of through their toyota brand. Infiniti has decided to make their cars bolder then their Lexus counterparts, with faster and more radical-looking models. The Renault influence in their design is slowly coming forward. And with the great performance bin from Nissan, they might have a niche for themselves. (of course they just started this trend, so we will have to see how it plays out in the long run).

Acura is the oddball here. They are still sticking to the value image that they started with. They tried to stand out when they came out with the NSX, but that never translated to anything else in their lineup. Their parts bin from Honda, which isn't bad, is still a step behind from their Toyota rival. And sometimes, the Acuras show too much of their Honda origins. I think Acura is trying to revamp their image now by offering sporty, original looking vehicles, and charging for the changes being made on their vehicles. I'm hoping that Acura will learn from the other luxury marks that RWD is not an option, but a neccesity in competing with the europeans.

As for people who say Lexus and other brands are overpriced, as Acura fans, we can't start that conversation without being drilled by others who will say that Acuras are overpriced Hondas without much improvements.

Junkster, who is missing his 93 integra... ah...

Now, I really have to know...if RWD is neccessary, then how do you explain Nissan's pheonix-like rise?
Division A (Nissan):
1. Edgy styling
2. More powerful engines
3. Parts sharing
4. Expanded lineup
5. Aggressive marketing
Outcome: Success

Division B (Infiniti):
1. Edgy styling
2. More powerful engines
3. Parts sharing
4. Expanded lineup
5. Aggressive marketing
6. RWD platforms
Outcome: Success

How can you possibly say RWD was instrumental in the resurection of Infiniti when Nissan saw the same sales improvements without it? If Nissan failed while Infiniti succeeded, that would be a different story. I think Infiniti succeeded because of 1-5 and it just so happens #6 was in the mix too.

Junksta, I agree with most of your statmements except Lexus had the 1st gen SC coupes that were sporty and won numerous awards, partly b/c of their sportiness and Lexus has done well with the sport sedan IS 300 and sporty GS series.

Infiniti is making some noise but far behind Lexus. Infinti is only sold in the USA and has only a couple strong new models (G35s, FX). Lexus has been the best selling luxury brand for 3 years in a row now and sold world-wide as Lexus. Even in Japan starting in 2005.

Hey, similar minds... how rare is that in this forum?
Yea, the SC was a nice coupe. I remember my father thought that the car was very classy looking.
I think Infiniti did have a better start when both companies were just starting. Rememer the Q45 was a great hit early on, with very unique styling and classy interior (it started that analog clock deal).
I think I will start a new thread on where the Acura brand is heading in the forum somewhere. It is interesting since Acura seems to be at a crossroads and the next few years will determine the future of the brand... but that's another thread.

Junkster, who liked the Q45 with no grill...

RWD is more of a factor for the more powerful, more expensive lux car market. It's possible that RWD was a requirement for Infiniti to be successful but not for lower-priced Nissan.

With that said, I look largely to Maxima sales as an indicator for how the TL could do. Both are larger-sized, powerful FWD sporty sedans. Not sports cars, but somewhat sporty. Both cost in the 30k range. So long as the Max is selling well, there should be a market for the TL.

Around here, so very many people buy BMW for the name, I think they barely know how many wheels are on the car, much less if it's FWD/RWD/AWD

I am sensing some hostility here! Somebody just said Honda/Acura is not good enough to make a luxury nor sporty car. What about the Legend? What about the NSX? Come on! Acura is new focus is Performance, Luxury and CSI. Don't expect much discount when you walk into an Acura store from now on! TL, TSX, MDX are all hot as hell right now!

First and foremost, we are not doggin Acura here, just being critical about their products. I personally love the Acura brand, but I can't say that for alot of other autophiles.
And you brought up two models that are the peak of Acura goodness, the Legend and NSX, but one has been renamed and overpriced, and the other is essentially a 93 model reskinned and tweaked for longevity.
The TL, TSX, and the MDX are all good cars, but the MDX is the only one that has been around enough to be labelled a hit for Acura. Let's wait to see how the TL and TSX age in the next few years and see if the brand has made the right decision.

Junkster, who thinks the NSX is underpowered for a supercar.

I don't think Maxima sales won't be a good indication of TL sales...they are too different I don't think they'll be cross shopped as often as you'd think. They are both FWD cars with similar hp. But that's about it. The TL really isn't that big of a car and will be marketed from the power/performance standpoint. Besides, as soon as people sit inside both, they'll realize the new TL is a luxury car, the Maxima is a Nissan.

We'll see the TL compete more closely with the G35 and wotnot for sales. IMHO

I'm with you on this one. All these people painting the day of doom for Honda/Acura are kind of crazy, IMO. With the exception of the RL, does Honda or Acura ever have any problem of moving cars off the lot? No. Does Honda make money off of each sale? Yes - above average in fact. Enough said.

How can a company, who sells its cars for good profits be heading down the tubes? If we want to talk about that, lets talk about Chrysler and its 300 days supply of Pacificas which sell for razor thin profits.

Does the 2004 MDX still not have xenon lights?

That is sad, specially because they got new Headlights that are similar to TSX :mad:

No, it got new projector style lights but no xenons, which dissappointed some. But it did get side curtain airbags, so it's more on a par with the XC 90, safety wise (it dusts the XC 90 in almost every other category, heh heh).
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I don't understand the conclusion that Lexus has access to a better "parts bin" than Honda. Hondas are generally superior to the competing Toyotas: Accord > Camry, Pilot > Highlander, CRV > RAV-4. Admittly, Sienna is probably superior to the Honda Minivan, and Corolla is easly the equal of Civic. But, the point is, Honda products are at the top of the industry in almost all market segments. And, Honda 4-cyl and V6 engines are among the best in the buisness. Can't say the same about Toyota.

Acura is too broad for a luxury div. They should make the rsx a Honda, kill the EL (Canada), and make the tsx the base model of the division.

Habib, they were good cars, should have been Nissans. There was NOTHING about these cars deserving of a luxury car badge. If they were so good, they why are they discontinued? Then again, I guess they did deserve the Infiniti badge since that says nothing.

Nissan brought back the RWD 350Z which has gotten rave reviews and brings it's halo down the line.

Infiniti kept MARKETING their cars as sports sedans and they finally got it right with the RWD G35. If they had tried the same stunt with the 04 Maxima making it the I35, it would have failed miserably. Now they offer an AWD G35. Even the FX 35 is RWD. Both getting rave reviews as driver's cars.

It's getting funny now. Since Acura is the ONLY "luxury" car maker with FWD, does that not seem if something is wrong?

Cadillac is going back to RWD starting with the CTS and XLR both getting good reviews.
Lincoln did with the LS and got good reviews.
BMW has it.
Benz has it.
Audi has it.
Lexus has it.

Saab don't nor Volvo and guess what, we don't consider them real luxury cars do we?

No, up until recently, Acura has been one of the best selling luxury brands on the market and they have always been FWD. So now that they are slipping a little, you blame it on the FWD. I think it has nothing to do with that. I think it has to do with marketing and styling. The general public doesn't look at a G35 and say "that's a RWD car, I want it." They look at it and say "that's a cool looking car, I want it."

Name a RWD Audi. AWD is an option, but it's still a FWD company...

You don't consider them real luxury cars because they aren't RWD. The respective automakers and the general public, however, do consider them luxury cars because guess what...they don't care about RWD. You just have to realize, there is for more to the measure of a luxury car than it's drive configuration. It's like you take one of your biases and inflate it until you believe a carmaker lives and dies by this bias of yours even with a majority of the buyers don't care.

I traded an MDX in June and am trading a TL-S next month. I bought European before the Acura's and the replacements are both European. As an ex-owner, I agree with the USA Today article. The Acura's were good cars, but not great ones. I got what I paid for and nothing more. Acura = value, but beyond that, what's their claim to fame? Like the article said, they've got to create an identity beyond "more stuff for less".

this is exactly honda/acura's problem..honda ONLY HAS ECONOMY CARS...no parts bin for acura to use to make real luxury cars..toyota on the other hand has a huge selection of different platform RWD,AWD, V6, I4, I6,V8, factroy turbo, factory supercharger etc....6spd auto, SMG tranny etc... you can modify a accord or pilot to be entry level luxury cars by just putting in features..but when you enter the real luxury market and leave entry luxury...sharing essentially the same car as the econo honda brand just doesnt work.

its a fine line, companies don't need rwd to succeed, buyers may not even know the cars are rwd, but the cars need rwd or awd to support more powerful engines that are expected in these types of luxury cars. acura doesn't have any engine over 270hp so at this point its not an issue. think the rl will show the direction they are heading.

one thing i notice while looking at sales was how the rx330 outsells the mdx and the es outsells the tl so i think there is a deeper problem than just rwd vs fwd.

If they give us more performance and features for less and wrap everything in a stylish/elegant body, I'd call that pretty *ucking wonderful! The MDX, TSX, RSX and new TL are terrific products, each one a home run (well, maybe the RSX is a triple). I'm glad you moved back to European cars. The many fine Americans that work in the automotive repair industry are counting on you, Sir, to help put food on their tables. And the dealers selling those overpriced and underfeatured cars from Europe need to make a buck too, I suppose, since many of them have families. By the way, if you'd taken the time to read some of the earlier posts, you'd have noticed we all generally agree the RL is way over the hill and the old TL was in dire need of replacement. Those two models accounted for most of the "decline" in Acura sales this year...I'll bet you a six pack this quarter is going to be one of the best ever for the brand.
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Yes but all of Audi's performance and Halo cars have AWD. You cannot have a FWD performance car...its just in the physics. You get torque steer, the weight is always transferred to the rear when accelerating and such. It makes sense to have RWD/AWD cars if you are selling them as 'performance oriented' cars. If that is what Acura wants to do...they are gonna have to change. Imagine a 350hp beast with FWD...you would get no traction off the line...and torque steer would be terrible.

You sound exactly like I did in March, 2002 when I was still enjoying that new car smell. I was telling everyone how smart I was because I beat the system got "more for less". I'll check back with you in two years. Remember, I'm not speaking hypothetically, I owned both an MDX and a TL-S.

BTW, the residual on a 36 month lease for the TL-S replacement is 62%. My TL-S lease end buy-out is $24K and it's worth about $19.5K as a trade. Let's not even talk about the poor CL-S folks now that the car's discountinued. Just something to think about when you're slamming "over-priced" European cars.

Oh, and the "always in the shop" argument doesn't really hold water anymore. Ask the TL/CL folks that are on their four transmission and third set of brake rotors. Maybe Acura's changed their "just enough" strategy but the fact that their still using the same brakes and transmission (according to posts on acura-tl.com) in the new TL makes me wonder. And what's up with Brembo's on the front brakes only on the TL 6-speed? You have to admit that's kind of strange and must be driven by cost cutting.

I don't know enough to argue about the specifics of what Honda does/doesn't have access to, but I read that article, and it seemed obvious to me that the writer is not keeping up to date on what seems to be going on in terms of supply and demand in the automotive markets. I think Honda has studied the situation and is making logical choices in light of what's going on in the U.S economy in general (i.e., a recession that doesn't seem to show signs of substantial recovery) and has been adjusting its rollout strategy to reflect this--conservative model introduction strategies in its luxury brand, Acura.

The automotive market in general is dealing with excess capacity in the truck/SUV markets, meaning there is more ability to make SUVs and light trucks than there is actual consumer demand. That's why you see people driving Escalades, Explorers, and X5s that don't really need them. From an economic standpoint, what's the use of introducing new SUVs--which was the writer's main complaint--when the market is already flooded with them?

Barry,
I can't speak to the TL-S, I was not a big fan of the previous model. But it's gone now. Can't speak to lease/residuals, etc, either, as I always buy my cars. Now the new car smell is long gone from the MDX though AND IT STILL ROCKS. And I did compare and drive the competition, MDX beat them all hands down (I found it amazing the T6 XC 90, for example, was slower than my '03 MDX but also got worse mileage AND cost $5K more comparably equipped). I must not be the only consumer who thought the XC 90 was a sh*tty value, as they're now being discounted, less than a year after introduction.
I'm not sure where you're going with with the "just enough" stuff. 270 HP, Bluetooth, leather, navigation and 5000 other thinks you'd have to pay extra for on a BMW seems like plenty to me.
And the always in the shop" argument really does hold water. Check CR or whatever source you trust for reliability info, you will find most of the competition sucks...though you might find yourself the exception to the rule (as I did with my ultra-reliable 2000 Durango). Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Good luck and happy motoring!
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Also do not forget:

Nissan has the following all new models for 04:

1) Nissan Quest
2) Nissan Pathfinder Armada
3) Nissan Titan
4) Nissan Maxima
5) Nissan 350Z convertible.

What did Honda/Acura have all-new in for 04?
1) Acura TSX
2) Acura TL

What else?

Honda has to be more aggressive and start offering fresh new competitive products.

just curious as to what Infiniti cars were MARKETED as sport sedans before the G35.

G20. False advertising.

rwd is what acura needs

Dude, Lexus is the best selling most dependable luxusy car. Toyota is about to become the #3 carmaker, they rake in the most revenue, their products are always in the top #3 no matter is we like em or not. Honda does well for it's limited amount of products. It really does.

And Lexus and Toyota have vowed to futher seperate their products. My fav also. Infinti KNEW EXACTLY What it wanted. A luxury sports sedan. It was wonderful.:love: The Q45 now blows but the G35 found some of it's spirit.

Really? Than why is it that 1) Honda has had absolutely no problems selling the TL in the past, 2) The TSX is one of the hottest selling cars in America (in terms of average days on a dealer lots, 3) Honda can't build enough MDX's to meet demand, 4) The is a long waiting list for the new TL.

Honda's strategy of using their car line as a foundation for more upscale cars seems to be working just fine, thank you. Even at their worst, Acura is still behind only the top euro brands (Audi, MB, BMW) and Lexus in sales. And, at the current rate, they should be back in the number 3 slot by the middle of the winter.

because its cheap...just like GM has no pblm selling crapaliers...they are cheap.....the other luxury makers play by quality,vehicle,luxury, brand image..acura relies on price.... you are confusing cheap prices to sell and quality to sell... you can sell a lot of anything if it was cheap enough, but luxury goods is one thing you dont use cheap to sell....LV bags sell for 600+ a pop, walmart generic sell for 15 a pop and probably more total sales too...but it is obviouisly clear which is the better product and which is the luxury product... normally that would be fine with everybody execpt the thing is...walmart is saying it is selling a bag comparable to LV.....

Acura TSX is a good quality car. The interior is better than BMW 325i and Lexus IS300. The exterior is clean and elegant plus it can turn to aggressive look by adding OEM kit. PLUS, it is cheaper than other brands. TSX is the best choice if you know the math. Acura knows how to make good value car. Cheap doesn't mean bad quality. I am sure whoever bought the TSX will be very happy.

acura is doing the same thing with the tsx

I also agree with the statement that FWD and RWD is not that big of a difference to most of the luxury car buyers. Acura should rebadge RSX as a Honda because its price and luxury level doesn't justify Acura's image. In addition, RL is just not good enough to compete against cars like E500, S430, 545i, 745Li, LS430, A8 L, let alone S600 and 760Li. Therefore, Honda should not insist of not making a V8 engine. Honda concentrates too much on fuel economy and environmental issue, it is good for cars under $30k, but not so important for luxury vehicles. If they could do it for a V8 engine, that's a bonus, if not, they should give up fuel efficiency and manufacture a super quiet and powerful V8 engine. Right now there are NSX, TSX, RSX, RL, TL, CL, and MDX in Acura lineup. But actually only TL, TSX, and MDX are still selling or will sell well.


NSX: It hasn't been changed significantly for too long, many competitors has surpassed its performance category for probably less money, and it doesn't provide enough luxury features such as navigation system or DVD-A. Even its a high-performance exotic sports car, it is still under a luxury brand, lots of stuff inside is a must.

TL: very good, much more aggressive styling and powerful engine, I think it would continue selling well.

TSX: good looking, extremely well fit and finish outside and inside. Too bad only 15000 is allocated this year, hope to increase quantity in the future.

CL: It pretty much has been a failure since its advent in 2000. Even Acura has given it up.

RL: As stated above, it has only a 3.5L non-VTEC SOHC V6 engine mated with a 4 speed automatic transimssion and still costing more than $43k, and even worse is that it has been in the market pretty much unchanged since mid-1996. Definitely need refreshment.

RSX: Relatively cheap compared with what the other luxury brands provide. Doesn't justify Acura's image. Should go to Honda family and I think it would still pretty much sell the same.

MDX: Just look at the sales, it is a successful model. Dealers still don't like to sell under MSRP.

i never thought of the G20 as a sports sedan....but yea, that would be false advertising

First of all, even if it was price, what would be so horrible about that? Acura is happy because it is selling lots of models, drivers are happy because they are getting a great car at a great price.

Second, I'm sure there are very few TL or RL drivers who would agree that their cars were "cheap."

I, myself, own a TSX. I also drove the G35, 325i, A4, etc. I eventually opted for the TSX and price had little to do with the equation. I had about $35,000 to spend so money wasn't an issue. I bought the TSX because I liked it more than any of the cars.

Acura owners go for their cars because they like the reliability, low cost to own, and perceived quality of their vehicles. The fact that the cars offer great bang-for-the-buck is part of the equation, but reliabilty and quality come first. Cheap is not the issue.

Acura doesn't have a problem here. You simply want them to be something (i.e., a maker of expensive rear-wheel drive sports sedans) that there are not. Acura is selling lots of cars. Drivers love their vehicles. And, Acura is putting out some of the most desirable upscale vehicles in the segment. I don't see any issue to be concerned, except the expected downturn in the 2003 TL sales (end of the model life).

Prediction: the great limit on how many TSX and TLs that Acura will sell next year will be production capability. Acura is going to sell every one of those cars, at close to MSRP, that it can build. I will also go so far as to predict that the Acura TL will outsell EVERY sedan in the $30,000 to $35,000 bracket next year.

They don't have to be expensive but what would be so wrong with at least one RWD sedan platform - Honda/Acura has none. Every other manufacturer has more than one. You think the TSX and TL are great now think how much better it could sell if they also had a RWD drive cousin. Heck they could even go backwards and make a sedan out of the MDX platform and voila, AWD TL!

It's funny how the TSX has gotten critical acclaim as a fantastic entry level sports sedan...but because it doesn't fit your definition as a sports sedan then Acura should stop calling it that.