dozorca

Integra/RSX is a light, quick, well handling, FWD car.

Moving upmarket or changing the RSX would be like slapping a Honda Odyssey name on Acura NSX. It just won't work.

RSX is what it is... definitely shouldn't be a heavy 2+2 Coupe with a V6.

Edit: I agree with other's that the Civic SI is the replacement for RSX.

Honda already had that problem before. Remember Prelude vs Integra.

Civic SI = Acura RSX
Next Gen RSX = a coupe based on the next gen TSX. It will mirror the BMW 3 series layout. plus come with a 4 cyl turbo.

mrdeeno

I love your logic. Let's see how this works...

The previous generation Civics were small economy cars in both sedan and coupe forms with just enough power. Using your logic..."the civic is what it is...definitely shouldn't be a 197 hp well handling FWD coupe".

The last generation RL was a FWD 225hp sedan that was only mediocre at everything. Using your logic..."the RL is what it is...definitely shouldn't be a heavy AWD sedan with 290hp"

The earlier generation accord was previously only a small 4 cylinder economy car. "the accord is what it is...it definitiely shouldn't be a heavy V6 sedan/coupe with 240hp."

I guess every instance of car evolution and moving upmarket with each generation is "slapping the Odyssey name on an NSX" to you?

further, the Infiniti G was a FWD 4-cylinder sedan without much performance that they made it into a more up-market rwd 3.5L sedan and coupe...and they still call it the "G". And i don't recall anyone complaining that the "G should be what it was, a decent 4 cylinder economy car with nice leather" rather than what it is now.

dozorca

Here is a history lesson on "previous generation civics"

1) Introduced in 1985, the hot-rod CRX Si came ready to run with a fuel-injected version of the 1.5-liter engine that pumped out 91 horsepower. Able to hit 60 mph in less than 9 seconds, the Si also boasted handling enhancements, such as 14-inch alloy wheels with 185/60R14 high-performance tires. A power sunroof was standard on the Si, as were a monotone paint scheme and sport seats.

2) In 1994 On the del Sol front, a new model debuted called the VTEC. Named after its 1.6-liter DOHC engine that boasted a sizzling 160 horsepower, this del Sol came with bigger brakes, a firmer suspension and high-performance (195/60VR14) rubber.

Here you see the Civic SI/Del sol with 160 hp... not too far of a stretch to current 197

3) Ever hear of civic Type-R in europe? Running 200hp for a while now?

Last gen legend was a flagship.

Last Gen RL Current RL
Heavy Heavy
underpowered (it it's class) underpowered (it it's class)
mediocre at everything. mediocre at almosteverything

Which earlier generations are you talking about? The accord had a v6 option from 1994 if I'm not mistaken (2.7L V6).

All previous accords = family roomy 4-door cars. What's so different now?

You're confusing evolution with creating a totally new car.

Infiniti G20 was the Nissan Primera.
Inifniti G35 and Nissan Z350 are based on the original Z car.

G is a family line of cars. Not the name of a car. G20 is a name.

I don't understand how the G20 was moved up market.

-------------------------

Why are you getting so upset? It seems as if you want to force your opinion onto everyone else.

mrdeeno

dude, you're history lesson doesn't cover much history. The civic started out in 1972 as a subcompact thru 2000. It became a compact in 2001. Hmm...did the civic just move upmarket from subcompact to compact between 2000 and 2001?

as you stated:
I guess they slapped just slapped an Odyssey badge on an NSX at the moment the civic moved upmarket into the compact class.


Further, a civic is an economy car that they added higher performance variants to (SI, CRX, type-r). Ouch! sounds like another NSX just got slapped with an Odyssey badge!


On to the Accords:

from 1976 through 1993, the Accord was a compact with i4 engine only. Was this a family roomy 4-door car? i don't think so!

The Accord went to midsize in '94 with a V6 option added for '95.

DAMN! That NSX just got slapped with TWO odyssey badges, first in '94 then in '95 when it got its V6! Back to back! I don't know how much more that NSX can take!



Uh, yeah, I'm not the one confused here.

i suggested that it's possible for Acura to throw a V6 (or even a turbocharged I-4 from the RDX) into the RSX in order to move it upmarket and away from the Civic SI, rather than killing it and replacing it with a new model and name.

this would NOT be any different than the evolution of the Civic from subcompact to compact, or the Accord from compact to midsize, or the accord from I-4 only to offering a V6 option...all of which constitute moving these models upmarket. The civic has moved so upmarket in fact that they had to bring in the new Fit to take its place as the entry level Honda!

YOU are the one that stated:
And you must be confused because all the supporting evidence you provided actually supports MY conclusion




I'm not upset at all. I'm actually enjoying this discussion. And i'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. I present my opinion and supporting evidence and let everyone else decide for themselves.

But i'm going to jump all over comments that are totally flawed, like:

picus

They need to kill the CSX.

dozorca

The definition and purpose of the civic hasn't changed since the beginning.
It's not trying to be anything but a light, economy car with performance variants.




The definition and purpose of the accord hasn't change since the beginning.
It is not trying to be something else but a roomy, family car.

I-4 sales still make up most of the sales for Accord/Camery, so I'm not sure about the entire v6 arguement.


RSX's hasn't change since integra came out in 1986. Quick, fwd, light, sporty car.


Now, when you look at my comments, you will notice that with each car, the true definition and purpose has not changed since the beginning.

I don't think that using the RSX name on a car with different dynamics or overall purpose will work. Because when people hear civic, they think economy, when they hear accord, they think comfy family sedan, and when the hear RSX, they think sporty light fwd car.

Acura is concerned that when people hear RSX, they might dismiss the car right away, because what the car was until now.

SPUDMTN

I see what you mean, but here's my interpretation: each respective vehicle's classification or its goals have not changed since their introduction. Each iteration, in my opinion, has been an evolution. I don't think any of the vehicles mentioned above have really changed classes or have move upmarket, but instead have kept pace with what the market demands.

Think about it...I still consider (and probably much of the world) consider the Civic to be a small, entry-level compact car, whether or not it packs 197hp and handles well. It's still an entry-level car in my opinion, and didn't really change classes. It's an affordable, small, efficient little car--just like the original. Sure it's grown in size, but everything else has, as well. I really have never consider its size or power a move upmarket, but instead just keeping up with the market.

Same thing with the Accord. It's always been the large vehicle in the Honda family, and still is. It's kept the exact same place in the lineup since its introduction, no? Again, it's just keeping up with the market.

Get what I'm saying? The Accord, Altima, and Camry are all still family cars (just like they always have been) even if they have 240+ hp and prices that push $30k+...I really wouldn't say any of the vehicles have changed much in their basic philosophy, would you?

Anyway, I'd say all of this is simply the result of a kind of inflation. While the official size classifications haven't changed for a while, consumer's tastes sure have. The average car buyer demands a whole lot more now than they did when many of these vehicles were first introduced. See what I'm getting at?

SPUDMTN

I don't care if it's doing wonders for Acura Canada's sales...it brings down the brand image.

Then again, why should I care...it's just Canada... lol

mrdeeno

It's no longer an "economy car" that it was back in the day. The Fit is now the economy car that the Civic was since the Civic has moved upmarket considerably.

The accord hasn't always been a roomy car since the beginning. It was a compact prior to what it is now. It, like the Civic, has evolved and moved upmarket in size and price.

And I bring up the V6 because the accord didn't need a v6 engine before for its purpose. But a V6 was added anyway because of where the car was positioned as it moved upmarket.


Yes, the integra and RSX are both quick, fwd, and light. But then again there are major differences between the RSX and integra. The top level GS-R (type-R was a "special" offering) makes a lot less power than the top RSX type-S. Further, the RSX refinement is much more upmarket than the integras.

I'm not sure if you took what I stated incorrectly. I did not mean that the RSX should be made into a $35-40k entry-lux level car like the TL. I meant that the RSX can easily be moved upmarket rather than killed.

What I'm saying is that it IS very possible to move the RSX upmarket for the next iteration. This is not only possible, but definitely EXPECTED if the RSX wasn't being canned. This is natural progression of most cars. And since Acura is starting to use turbocharged engines, there's no reason they can't use the RDX engine in another RSX. The interior and exterior would also be more refined and even increase in size, all this will also come with a higher price tag, which is also EXPECTED. All this would lead to what I'm trying to point out, an RSX that's more upmarket than the current so the Civic won't have anything on it.

mrdeeno

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. Which is why I question killing the RSX rather than moving it upmarket. It'll still be at the bottom of the Acura lineup, but it's got a lot of room to move and still be at the bottom considering there's no CL.

So again, why kill the name which has been successful?

SPUDMTN

Maybe because of the stigma attached to the RSX name...?

The RSX is kind of notorious for being a "rice" car. I'm assuming the entry-level coupe (which will supposedly be based on the TSX) will simply be a TSX coupe.

...in other words...I have no friggin idea

---

As a side note, I think it would be really cool if Acurazine, TOV, or even Edmunds InsideLine, could get one of those live chats or even a forum discussion going with someone in Acura product planning or any executive within Acura just so that we could get some of these questions answered. All of this speculation is killing me...

phile

Success may be a measure of sales, but there is more to it in the luxury market, which can be fickle (yes, I know, the RSX hardly fits in the luxury market, but that's where Honda positioned it). To me, it's clear the RSX had very large shoes to fill, with the Integra being almost a cult status symbol, and the RSX was not able to garner as much enthusiam from its target audience as much as the outgoing Integra did.

Earlier you brought up the Legend --> RL debacle, which is true, and compared that with the Infiniti G20 --> G35 success. Nissan/Infiniti has strategies that are comprehensible, you can see what the heads are thinking. But Honda/Acura is not consistent and quite frankly I sometimes don't see a method to their madness at all. Sales number as a measure of success aside, the RSX just wasn't received as well as the Integra, which it essentially replaced. Thus, it's getting killed off. If you're trying to look deeper into that, I would not rely on the past (especially Honda/Acura's past, of all automakers) to construct any seemingly valid arguments for why Acura is doing it. In other words, I don't have a clue either.

mrdeeno

Considering the RSX "name" has only been around for one generation, I think they can salvage the name with good results. But then again that could be a reason they can kill it without too many people being upset, because it has no "name" heritage.

I'm not saying they should or should not kill the name, it doesn't matter to me either way except for discussion's sake, I'm just questioning why and their reason for it, and like you said, they don't have any transparent strategy that we can see. To me, it sounds like a marketing ploy, but it actually looks bad simply because they brought out the RSX name for ONE generation, then kill it...sort of like they are backtracking and trying to rectify a mistake. Similar to the CL...they killed it for a year, brought it back for another generation only to kill it again.

I think Acura is trying too hard to avoid strategies that other automakers successfully use...trying to hard to be "different", and trying to be "creative" with their marketing rather than focus on product to sell cars. It didn't work for GM...which for example had 1 model with 3 or 4 different badges to cater to different markets...just a marketing game.

heyitsme

Why kill the Integra name which was hugely more popular than the Rsx name?
(same with Legend)

mrdeeno

this is what I'm getting at, they are more concerned with "names" and marketing games rather than focusing more on product. Make and sell a great product and it will elevate the entire brand, no matter what the model name.

But try to play marketing games to raise the brand image rather than focusing on product (ie last generation RL, first generation CL and TL, SLX), and the brand image will suffer, regardless of what its cars are called.

They got rid of the Integra and Legend name because they wanted to move the brand image up by wanting people to be more concerned with driving an "Acura" rather than an "Integra" or "Legend".

F23A4

Left Lane News

GreenMonster

Sad, but true.... Acura has done some great stuff with the TSX, TL and RL, but if you don't want a sedan....

There was a thread here about Acura wanting to protray a "sportier" image, so hopefully they'll add some more sport to their lineup via some coupes....

The Brand Image is a little too "stuffy" for me...

phile

Good golly, the article made the RSX sounded like it was an S2000. Its demise will leave the Acura lineup without a coupe; but I don't think it denies any real driving enthusiast one less vehicle to choose from.

GreenMonster

The point isn't that there is "one" less car to choose from, the point is that there are only sedans and suv's in the lineup now...

It's going to be tough to portray a sporty brand image w/o a coupe in the lineup for the forseeable future...

I'm getting "itchy" for another car (50K miles on the CLS 6spd), and it would be nice if acura had something sporty in their line up, but they don't... so I've been looking at other cars...

charliemike

I don't think Acura needs a 350Z but they do need a 3-series coupe.

F23A4

And with the new Infiniti G coupe and BMW E92 due in VERY short order, Acura better have a serious ace up its sleeve.

phile

I didn't say it was one less car to choose from in the Acura lineup; it is one less coupe that driving enthusiasts, which the article seems to imply are the ones who will sorely miss it, will and can do without, in general.

I don't see how the argument can be made that Acura will be seen as any less of a sporty brand without the RSX specifically; I understand their argument that there are no coupes in the Acura lineup anymore. Now if they had used, say, the NSX in their battle cry, then I can see where they're going. But the RSX, IMO, is no poster child for such a cause.

M TYPE X

The NSX and RSX were, respectively, an exotic sports car and a compact sport coupe. What Acura needs is a midsize-ish luxosport coupe, like the CL or Legend Coupe.

You won't see me bashing on Integras/RSXs here, and I'm disappointed to see that phile has done so. The Integra, Legend, Vigor, TL, CL, RL, MDX, NSX, and TSX have all been great. I'm not really a fan of the RDX yet, the early CLs were basically redressed Accord Coupes, the SLX was a mistake, and the first-gen RL was kinda stuffy. But Acura has largely built cars for driving enthusiasts and the RSX was no exception. The third-gen TL might not be terribly exciting, but it's sporty compared to other midsize sedans of its day.

I don't mind dropping the RSX, but all this insult and bile thrown in the grave with it stinks.

charliemike

Dude, it was a nice little car. But phile's point is that this was no halo sports car.

It was a sporty little hatchback that was drowned out in the market because there wasn't really anything to differentiate it. Had the RSX-S been selling in the $20-21k range instead of the $24k range it might have had more of a chance.

The TSX has proven that Acura can sell 4-bangers and be successful. So it's not that issue; I think that Acura needs to redesign it and then return it to the market.

krio

Motor Trend

At a press conference in early February, Honda CEO Takanobu Ito shocked the world's media when he nonchalantly revealed plans to launch a detuned production version of the V8-powered HSV-010 race car. Of course, he was referring to a road-going variant of the NSX successor project, which was shelved several years ago.

As it turns out, the next NSX (which is expected to be powered by a 400-plus hp V-8) features heavily in the company's renewed plan to pump out as many as three sports cars over the next several years.

Just over six weeks ago, a killer earthquake and tsunami threatened to cancel this about-face from Honda, and rob us of some of the most exciting news to come out of Japan since the Nissan GT-R surfaced three years ago.

But a reliable source close to Honda tells us that while these plans have been postponed as the company sorts out its parts supply problems, they are not dead in the water. In the last few weeks, we have been hearing that Honda is working on a high performance coupe powered by a 3.5 liter V-6 plug-in hybrid, a concept that Ito himself briefly mentioned.

The rebirth of the Acura RSX, the car you see pictured here in an artist's representation, is also on the near-term agenda. According our sources, the next-gen RSX will inherit a version of the just-launched ninth-generation Civic Si's 201 hp, i-VTEC 2.4 liter gas engine with slick 6-speed manual and helical LSD. Fitted with specially tuned sports suspension, the new RSX will also employ an interior inspired by the current Civic Type R and an exterior in a sharp, wedge shape.

Further down the line, Honda is also said to be developing a "more reasonably priced" C-segment sports coupe. Driven by a strong request from North American Honda dealers, this coupe is being developed with that market in mind and will incorporate Accord hardware.

One other concept that we have covered before and awaits the results of Honda's so-called "R-evaluation executive session" is a successor to the Beat. The original Beat was an open-top two-door, mid-engined 660cc minicar that could rev to 8500 rpm, and the next generation promises to be a new interpretation of that concept with a 1.3 to 1.5 liter gas engine. If built, don't expect the Beat to come to the U.S. We have also heard rumors of a hotter CR-Z getting a 190 hp-plus 2.0 liter gas unit, but that's all we have at the moment, rumors.

mcflyguy24

to bringing back the RSX. Acura needs that. Hopefully it's interior WILL NOT resemble my kitchen appliances this time around.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I know it's a pipe dream, but please bring back the Integra Monicker!!!

biker

More vaporware?

pttl

I suppose no matter what shape it comes in, it will be FWD.

dom

Lets hope we see something more formidable than the 2.4 in the Si.

godfather2

that would be terrific but, unfortunately, it won't happen. since the german luxury marks use alpha-numeric names, the rest of the world continues to follow =(.

MarbleGT

This should be interesting.

Costco

In any case if it really does come out, it might just be a 2-door TSX or a slightly more upscale Civic Si. Want leather in your Si? Go to your Acura dealership for the new RSX!

Aman

With these rumours about the return of the "NSX" and this, maybe Honda really is listening to its consumers.

But I swear to God if Ito drops RSX and hybrid in the same sentence he's getting the Navy SEAL treatment.

riomp300

Moog-Type-S

You know it's gonna be a rebadged Civic Si....

Moog-Type-S

Why have Acura all over a legendary iconic name like that.

You know deep down you don't want the name "Integra" on any of this current/new Acura product.

Yea, we all hope Acura will change, but we have been doing that now for a decade +.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Good call. Let the Integra and Legend, in the U.S.A at least die in peace.

jasonwdp10

Am I the only one not interested in another fwd coupe from honda/acura?

The civic SI already replaced the rsx, a higher trim will basically be the civic coupe EX-L with a 200hp engine or a tsx coupe. I'm really not interested in either one.

I wouldn't mind a 305hp SHAWD 3 door rsx body styled coupe though.

KillerG

FUTURE PREDICTION:

new RSX debuts as a reskinned Honda CR-Z luxury hybrid.



now i know what you guys are thinking

"that car is too good looking, it will never make it out of the concept stage like that"

but rest assured, it will look just like this when it launches one day