Acura: RLX News
08-09-2010, 11:57 AM
#2321
Go Big Blue!
I disagree. If the car isnt selling, get rid of it. It doesnt mean you cant bring it back but you need to stop production on something that isnt selling. Put some money and effort into redesigning it and make it something that people want to buy. (and at the current rate of price increase the TL will be in that 50k range sooner than later)
Are you suggesting that the RL is a drain and distraction on Acura and they can't chew gum and walk at the same time? Or, are you maybe suggesting that it has a negative affect on the image from a broad consumer perspective? What is the rational for killing a model today that they have already said they plan to keep and evolve in the next generation release?
08-09-2010, 12:19 PM
#2322
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I didn't understand this last question until I went back and read the original question a few posts ago. You asked are those list if cars entry-luxury. I misread it as "luxury". In that case, I change my answer to yes for you. Not sure what the point was you were tryng to make but hope that helps.
Buick, Lincoln, Volvo, etc. I would see as in a subcategory below BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. Those brands are of course below the higher tier of luxury and exotics brands such as Bentley, Rolls, etc. I would put Acura in that category with Buick and Lincoln. Why? Well that was my original point before you started asking me those direct questions. The Acura brand is not on the same level as Lexus et al. Why? Because it's all about price when categorizing brands. It's not that my Acura RL isn't every bit as "luxurious" as a Lexus GS, or BMW 535. In many ways it's MORE. But the brand is not on the same level because they don't offer cars in that $70-$100k range. In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
08-09-2010, 12:37 PM
#2323
Race Director
08-09-2010, 12:45 PM
#2324
Go Big Blue!
OK so since you don't agree with the last point, then maybe you can explain to me the argument about why Acura should kill the current RL right now. You are good at articulating yourself. I think most of the guys are looking at this argument from a Honda/Acura enthusiast perspective. You know,; "It's a failure in it's category and that bothers me personally so get it out of here so I can feel better about the brand." That's fine for another thread. But on this thread, and for this subject, I think you need to take off that hat and put on your business cap and pretend to be an executive making a multi-million dollar decision. WHY should Honda stop production on this car? I'm sincerely interested because I'm far from always right and I'd be interested in another pierspective.
08-09-2010, 12:52 PM
#2325
Trolling Canuckistan
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
In reality, 50% of the models(RL MDX and ZDX) go into the 50K range now the only ones that don't are the RDX TSX and TL.
08-09-2010, 12:53 PM
#2326
Go Big Blue!
Good question. I think we must assume that they don't plan to offer that car again in the Japanese market. Japan is in terrible economic condition. Far worse than us. Theyve been in a stalled economy for over 10 years. Their island is small and crowded and they are making a push for greener smaller cars ahead of the U.S. The Honda Legend is dead in Japan. I understand the business reasoning completely.
Now, if they redesign the Legend in 2 years and reintroduce it in Japan along with rolling it out in NA, then I will be very surprised and I will admit I should never apply for a job at Honda because I dont think like them at all
Now, if they redesign the Legend in 2 years and reintroduce it in Japan along with rolling it out in NA, then I will be very surprised and I will admit I should never apply for a job at Honda because I dont think like them at all
08-09-2010, 12:59 PM
#2327
Go Big Blue!
Not true anymore Mikey. Both the MDX and ZDX go up into the 50K range. In fact, if highest price = flagship, the RL isn't even the flagship anymore, it's the ZDX.
In reality, 50% of the models(RL MDX and ZDX) go into the 50K range now the only ones that don't are the RDX TSX and TL.
In reality, 50% of the models(RL MDX and ZDX) go into the 50K range now the only ones that don't are the RDX TSX and TL.
Thats a whole other argument. I think thats been discussed before. Acura and Honda execs were quoted several times that they view their RL as the "flagship". I think they even said it on the statement they made to counter the rumor about it being killed. I agree its not much of a flagship. I think that's the main reason for this debate, but it's their view not mine.
I think that also is a clue that they don't plan to become a SUV brand like Land Rover otherwise they would have probably started referring to the ZDX as their flagship. I assume this inbalance is just temporary as they shift the brand up a notch in price. The current RL is the oldest model now in the lineup and all the evidence points to the fact that it WILL be replaced and it WILL sit at the top of the lineup in price again
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 08-09-2010 at 01:04 PM.
08-09-2010, 01:05 PM
#2328
Senior Moderator
Good question. I do know that after 2005, it was not very popular in Japan, either. My guess would be that they were selling fewer copies in Japan than in the U.S.--Japan's car market is small, and the market for a car of the Legend/RL's size is exceptionally small there IMHO.
Honda did not say officially, though, so we don't really know.
Honda did not say officially, though, so we don't really know.
08-09-2010, 01:18 PM
#2329
Lexus, Volvo, Buick and most models of MB/BMW are lower tiered than Acura. Only pure Made in Germany Audi is higher tier brand with most expensive content.
Hyundia cut costs & lowered weight for the platform when didnot design Sonata for V6.
Acura vehicles are not designed for V8 so V6 models are lighter and less expensive. They give the oldest tech, oldest engine, transmission, and less customizable.
Just built TL-SH-AWD in Japan with V8, DI engine ($3K atleast), rear vented brakes, 6speed, all the options of Lexus GS and its price will flew past Lexus GS. I am not even going into dedicated RWD platforms.
Honda as brand is more prestigious than anything Toyota and its pay structure reflect it. Although not comparable to imprted CEO Carlos Ghosan.
Its all about Value. for Lexus you get more specialized car and latest tech for less money and built in Japan for anything closer to $50K.
while most of Acura models in $50K are NA built in middle of lower wage.
It is like comparing Audi built in China with lower price and compare it $100K imported MDX.
Hyundia cut costs & lowered weight for the platform when didnot design Sonata for V6.
Acura vehicles are not designed for V8 so V6 models are lighter and less expensive. They give the oldest tech, oldest engine, transmission, and less customizable.
Just built TL-SH-AWD in Japan with V8, DI engine ($3K atleast), rear vented brakes, 6speed, all the options of Lexus GS and its price will flew past Lexus GS. I am not even going into dedicated RWD platforms.
Honda as brand is more prestigious than anything Toyota and its pay structure reflect it. Although not comparable to imprted CEO Carlos Ghosan.
Its all about Value. for Lexus you get more specialized car and latest tech for less money and built in Japan for anything closer to $50K.
while most of Acura models in $50K are NA built in middle of lower wage.
It is like comparing Audi built in China with lower price and compare it $100K imported MDX.
08-09-2010, 01:29 PM
#2330
Go Big Blue!
08-09-2010, 01:36 PM
#2331
Trolling Canuckistan
You're right. From a base price its still the highest but the ZDX can be trimmed out higher.
Thats a whole other argument. I think thats been discussed before. Acura and Honda execs were quoted several times that they view their RL as the "flagship". I think they even said it on the statement they made to counter the rumor about it being killed. I agree its not much of a flagship. I think that's the main reason for this debate, but it's their view not mine.
I think that also is a clue that they don't plan to become a SUV brand like Land Rover otherwise they would have probably started referring to the ZDX as their flagship. I assume this inbalance is just temporary as they shift the brand up a notch in price. The current RL is the oldest model now in the lineup and all the evidence points to the fact that it WILL be replaced and it WILL sit at the top of the lineup in price again
Thats a whole other argument. I think thats been discussed before. Acura and Honda execs were quoted several times that they view their RL as the "flagship". I think they even said it on the statement they made to counter the rumor about it being killed. I agree its not much of a flagship. I think that's the main reason for this debate, but it's their view not mine.
I think that also is a clue that they don't plan to become a SUV brand like Land Rover otherwise they would have probably started referring to the ZDX as their flagship. I assume this inbalance is just temporary as they shift the brand up a notch in price. The current RL is the oldest model now in the lineup and all the evidence points to the fact that it WILL be replaced and it WILL sit at the top of the lineup in price again
Personally, I don't equate highest price to mean flagship, I just threw it out there as some people do. While I don't think the ZDX makes a good "flag ship" vehicle, IMO it blows the RL out of the water. The attention to detail on the inside is a step above anything Acura has ever put on the road.
If the next RL gets the interior treatment the ZDX got, we are going to looking at a really nice (and hopefully competitive) flagship sedan.
08-09-2010, 01:48 PM
#2332
Go Big Blue!
^^ I understand. Point taken
I agree. I took it on a test drive recently when I took my RL in for an scheduled service. It was a slow day so me and the salesman, who sold me another car recently, took it on a long test drive. Wrong thread to start a discussion about the ZDX but it was certainly a notch up with the interior. I liked the leather dash board treatment. I could see replacing my wifes MDX with one when the lease is up but she doesn't like the looks at all. Eventhough we don't need much utility anymore, the ZDX seems like too much of a compromise in that department. They should lower the thing and call it a sedan. I think they'd sell more.
I agree. I took it on a test drive recently when I took my RL in for an scheduled service. It was a slow day so me and the salesman, who sold me another car recently, took it on a long test drive. Wrong thread to start a discussion about the ZDX but it was certainly a notch up with the interior. I liked the leather dash board treatment. I could see replacing my wifes MDX with one when the lease is up but she doesn't like the looks at all. Eventhough we don't need much utility anymore, the ZDX seems like too much of a compromise in that department. They should lower the thing and call it a sedan. I think they'd sell more.
08-09-2010, 01:57 PM
#2333
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK so since you don't agree with the last point, then maybe you can explain to me the argument about why Acura should kill the current RL right now. You are good at articulating yourself. I think most of the guys are looking at this argument from a Honda/Acura enthusiast perspective. You know,; "It's a failure in it's category and that bothers me personally so get it out of here so I can feel better about the brand." That's fine for another thread. But on this thread, and for this subject, I think you need to take off that hat and put on your business cap and pretend to be an executive making a multi-million dollar decision. WHY should Honda stop production on this car? I'm sincerely interested because I'm far from always right and I'd be interested in another pierspective.
I think Acura could focus more on performance with the new RL. Size it like a Pontiac G8 (neither BIG nor midsize) and use a more successful variation of the Acura styling group. It should be very aggressively styled and taut, and having driven the G8, that miracle of a ride/handling balance should be strived for. But luxury is most important, and the interior needs to set new standards for an Acura vehicle. I think it should be on its own platform, whether a new FWD platform with only SH-AWD or a RWD platform. It should also be available with a V8 or FI V6. This car needs to separate itself completely from the fancy Honda norm.
And maybe that can move it a little more upscale, more XF Supercharged and CLS-Class than E-Class and XF 5.0. This would force (thankfully) the new TL to shrink back to pre-2009 dimensions again but could offer an Advance package and all so that the price covers the lower end of the current RL.
Or something like that. Acura can carve their own niche out rather than just following the cliche desire for BMW-MB status.
08-09-2010, 02:15 PM
#2334
Senior Moderator
Sorry, I didn't understand this last question until I went back and read the original question a few posts ago. You asked are those list if cars entry-luxury. I misread it as "luxury". In that case, I change my answer to yes for you. Not sure what the point was you were tryng to make but hope that helps.
Buick, Lincoln, Volvo, etc. I would see as in a subcategory below BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. Those brands are of course below the higher tier of luxury and exotics brands such as Bentley, Rolls, etc. I would put Acura in that category with Buick and Lincoln. Why? Well that was my original point before you started asking me those direct questions. The Acura brand is not on the same level as Lexus et al. Why? Because it's all about price when categorizing brands. It's not that my Acura RL isn't every bit as "luxurious" as a Lexus GS, or BMW 535. In many ways it's MORE. But the brand is not on the same level because they don't offer cars in that $70-$100k range. In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
Buick, Lincoln, Volvo, etc. I would see as in a subcategory below BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. Those brands are of course below the higher tier of luxury and exotics brands such as Bentley, Rolls, etc. I would put Acura in that category with Buick and Lincoln. Why? Well that was my original point before you started asking me those direct questions. The Acura brand is not on the same level as Lexus et al. Why? Because it's all about price when categorizing brands. It's not that my Acura RL isn't every bit as "luxurious" as a Lexus GS, or BMW 535. In many ways it's MORE. But the brand is not on the same level because they don't offer cars in that $70-$100k range. In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
Acura's cars can be just as nice as a 328 and a 528 (not 335 or 535 as acura lacks HP/TQ to compete with those) along with a X3 and X5, maybe x6. HOWEVER what they lack is the ability to offer more. They recently came out with the advance package which those 4 have had since almost 2003! 7 YEARS LATER! As well, those 4 brands offer quite a bit more in terms of customization and options. Acura has literally 4 options and that's it. Those 4 on the other hand have things such as 20 way power seats, cooled + heated + massaging seats, Sunshades (power/nonpower) 3-4 zone climate systems, rear heated seats, nightvision, V8's, etc.
The lack of being able to customize a car into such a high dollar range is what kills it! Trust me, when you are on the car builder website, most of us here try to get it as expensive as we want or get it to something past our budget. With acura, it's 1 of 4 options and your done and there's not much left.
Until acura can offer more customization in the sense of options for consumers, they won't be able to get out of their little niche and as well away from the image of being a luxury honda.
Time and time again I have said this, compare the RL to any of those competitors, does it offer anything such as 20+ way power seats, no. Does it offer eletronically controlled dampening, no. Does it offer even a heated steering wheel, no. There is quite a bit missing and acura tries to act as if it's not necessary! And then if they believe it's necessary, they half ass the job! Take for example the new TL with the keyless entry system! It functions well enough, but that slot in the dash looks horrible! As well who the hell decided to put in a bright red button?
08-09-2010, 03:33 PM
#2335
Go Big Blue!
HOWEVER what they lack is the ability to offer more. They recently came out with the advance package which those 4 have had since almost 2003! 7 YEARS LATER! As well, those 4 brands offer quite a bit more in terms of customization and options. Acura has literally 4 options and that's it. Those 4 on the other hand have things such as 20 way power seats, cooled + heated + massaging seats, Sunshades (power/nonpower) 3-4 zone climate systems, rear heated seats, nightvision, V8's, etc.
The lack of being able to customize a car into such a high dollar range is what kills it! Trust me, when you are on the car builder website, most of us here try to get it as expensive as we want or get it to something past our budget. With acura, it's 1 of 4 options and your done and there's not much left.
Until acura can offer more customization in the sense of options for consumers, they won't be able to get out of their little niche and as well away from the image of being a luxury honda.
The lack of being able to customize a car into such a high dollar range is what kills it! Trust me, when you are on the car builder website, most of us here try to get it as expensive as we want or get it to something past our budget. With acura, it's 1 of 4 options and your done and there's not much left.
Until acura can offer more customization in the sense of options for consumers, they won't be able to get out of their little niche and as well away from the image of being a luxury honda.
Time and time again I have said this, compare the RL to any of those competitors, does it offer anything such as 20+ way power seats, no. Does it offer eletronically controlled dampening, no. Does it offer even a heated steering wheel, no. There is quite a bit missing and acura tries to act as if it's not necessary! And then if they believe it's necessary, they half ass the job!
By the way, sorry I'm talking so much these last few days and clogging up this site. I'm laid up from some small surgery and have nothing to do. I'm starting to annoy my wife too
08-09-2010, 05:07 PM
#2336
10th Gear
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Age: 46
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And maybe that can move it a little more upscale, more XF Supercharged and CLS-Class than E-Class and XF 5.0. This would force (thankfully) the new TL to shrink back to pre-2009 dimensions again but could offer an Advance package and all so that the price covers the lower end of the current RL.
08-09-2010, 06:42 PM
#2337
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I didn't want to move off topic but yes, the TSX would go back to pre-2008 dimensions and step back where it "belongs" ....in my world, admittedly. LOL
08-09-2010, 06:43 PM
#2338
2G TLX-S
.....
Are you suggesting that the RL is a drain and distraction on Acura and they can't chew gum and walk at the same time? Or, are you maybe suggesting that it has a negative affect on the image from a broad consumer perspective? What is the rational for killing a model today that they have already said they plan to keep and evolve in the next generation release?
It is much better to kill the RL designation, create a brand new from-the-ground-up sedan, give it a new name designation, e.g., XL, YL, or ZL. A new beginning, a new start. Let the failed fades in time.
The new RL-replacement sedan MUST be more powerful and more advance than the top-line TL, to warrant buyers paying that hefty price premium. Preferably with a V8 or a 350-400hp hybrid/forced-induction V6, and a even more advanced AWD system, exclusively only for the new sedan and not for the TL family line, in order to set it apart from the one-class-down TL family line.
Any sharing of hardware with the TL will only help bringing down the new RL-replacement sedan, just like today's ill-fortuned RL. Who's stupid enough to pay premium price for something that a similar version can be had for a much cheaper price tag.
08-09-2010, 07:07 PM
#2339
08-09-2010, 09:01 PM
#2340
Senior Moderator
But why? I've heard that argument but no one explains why they think it would help. I've given MY reasons for taking the position I have. I'm not saying I'm right.
Are you suggesting that the RL is a drain and distraction on Acura and they can't chew gum and walk at the same time? Or, are you maybe suggesting that it has a negative affect on the image from a broad consumer perspective? What is the rational for killing a model today that they have already said they plan to keep and evolve in the next generation release?
Are you suggesting that the RL is a drain and distraction on Acura and they can't chew gum and walk at the same time? Or, are you maybe suggesting that it has a negative affect on the image from a broad consumer perspective? What is the rational for killing a model today that they have already said they plan to keep and evolve in the next generation release?
Why do you think its a good idea to keep the car going when the ones they produce just sit there? If you were in the business of making a product and a certain product never sold, would you continue to produce it even though you havent sold what you had or would you stop making it and try a different making a different product? A smart business would move on to something different.
08-09-2010, 09:31 PM
#2341
In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
Infiniti had that problem with the Q. Instead of farting around with it and letting it costs tons of money, they got rid of it. Seems to be a good business decision if you ask me, can't say the same for Acura with the current RL and its poor sales. In fact, Infiniti has been able to move the current M a little bit further upmarket from where it was back in 2006 and even with its price point increase, it is selling pretty well so far, just sitting below the E-Class and 5-Series. Hey were is the RL sitting in the luxury sedan category. Is it sitting above the M in sales, features, performance, etc making Acura sit above Infiniti? Nope, not even close. Acura is currently below everyone in this category, even below the A6 and GS in sales. If you think that is giving Acura a grand/prestigious reputation and status then I don't know what more to say then
Have you actually driven a Camry XLE and a ES350 back to back on the same route/conditions with a test drive? I have, and I can tell you, the ES350 is no glorified Camry. It might share the same platform but that is where the similarities end. The Lexus was much more refined in almost every single area compared to the Toyota and warranted its price increase over the Camry. I'm talking about materials, fit/finish, seat comfort, body motion control, noise levels, handling improvement, feature content, dealership sales/service treatment, and many many more areas I'm forgetting. Personally though, I didn't care for each, simply b/c of the lack of feedback in the wheel, and driving experience. I like to have a little bit of that when driving and they did not provide enough for my taste.
Seems to me, that if your ES is getting mistaken from a distance for a LS, then your really getting you monies worth for that 35-38k bucks, without having to spend an arm and leg on a 70k + LS sedan.
Last edited by smarty666; 08-09-2010 at 09:33 PM.
08-09-2010, 10:05 PM
#2342
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Infiniti ranks below Acura on that subject? Never heard of something so ridiculous. Who the heck r u talking to?
Infiniti had that problem with the Q. Instead of farting around with it and letting it costs tons of money, they got rid of it. Seems to be a good business decision if you ask me, can't say the same for Acura with the current RL and its poor sales. In fact, Infiniti has been able to move the current M a little bit further upmarket from where it was back in 2006 and even with its price point increase, it is selling pretty well so far, just sitting below the E-Class and 5-Series. Hey were is the RL sitting in the luxury sedan category. Is it sitting above the M in sales, features, performance, etc making Acura sit above Infiniti? Nope, not even close. Acura is currently below everyone in this category, even below the A6 and GS in sales. If you think that is giving Acura a grand/prestigious reputation and status then I don't know what more to say then
Have you actually driven a Camry XLE and a ES350 back to back on the same route/conditions with a test drive? I have, and I can tell you, the ES350 is no glorified Camry. It might share the same platform but that is where the similarities end. The Lexus was much more refined in almost every single area compared to the Toyota and warranted its price increase over the Camry. I'm talking about materials, fit/finish, seat comfort, body motion control, noise levels, handling improvement, feature content, dealership sales/service treatment, and many many more areas I'm forgetting. Personally though, I didn't care for each, simply b/c of the lack of feedback in the wheel, and driving experience. I like to have a little bit of that when driving and they did not provide enough for my taste.
Seems to me, that if your ES is getting mistaken from a distance for a LS, then your really getting you monies worth for that 35-38k bucks, without having to spend an arm and leg on a 70k + LS sedan.
Infiniti had that problem with the Q. Instead of farting around with it and letting it costs tons of money, they got rid of it. Seems to be a good business decision if you ask me, can't say the same for Acura with the current RL and its poor sales. In fact, Infiniti has been able to move the current M a little bit further upmarket from where it was back in 2006 and even with its price point increase, it is selling pretty well so far, just sitting below the E-Class and 5-Series. Hey were is the RL sitting in the luxury sedan category. Is it sitting above the M in sales, features, performance, etc making Acura sit above Infiniti? Nope, not even close. Acura is currently below everyone in this category, even below the A6 and GS in sales. If you think that is giving Acura a grand/prestigious reputation and status then I don't know what more to say then
Have you actually driven a Camry XLE and a ES350 back to back on the same route/conditions with a test drive? I have, and I can tell you, the ES350 is no glorified Camry. It might share the same platform but that is where the similarities end. The Lexus was much more refined in almost every single area compared to the Toyota and warranted its price increase over the Camry. I'm talking about materials, fit/finish, seat comfort, body motion control, noise levels, handling improvement, feature content, dealership sales/service treatment, and many many more areas I'm forgetting. Personally though, I didn't care for each, simply b/c of the lack of feedback in the wheel, and driving experience. I like to have a little bit of that when driving and they did not provide enough for my taste.
Seems to me, that if your ES is getting mistaken from a distance for a LS, then your really getting you monies worth for that 35-38k bucks, without having to spend an arm and leg on a 70k + LS sedan.
It's as different or more different from a Camry as the TL is from the Accord.
08-09-2010, 11:10 PM
#2343
6th Gear
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm just hoping for Acura to design something (say the RL) give it some awesome motor options (v6 and v8) with RWD and have optional AWD and just blow Infinity, Lexus and everyone else out of the water.....sort of pipe dream, but c'mon Acura! We've all been waiting for something now give it to us!
08-10-2010, 06:50 AM
#2344
AZ Community Team
08-10-2010, 09:16 AM
#2345
I'm just hoping for Acura to design something (say the RL) give it some awesome motor options (v6 and v8) with RWD and have optional AWD and just blow Infinity, Lexus and everyone else out of the water.....sort of pipe dream, but c'mon Acura! We've all been waiting for something now give it to us!
08-10-2010, 09:27 AM
#2346
Go Big Blue!
If you were in the business of making a product and a certain product never sold, would you continue to produce it even though you havent sold what you had or would you stop making it and try a different making a different product? A smart business would move on to something different.
That's a specific example of mine but it happens all the time for many different reasons in business. Here's another. Milk. No one makes money selling milk. Its what you call a "lose leader". If you own a small deli or grocery store why would you sell something you don't make money on. Of course we can probably figure it out if we think about it for a second. You sell it because you know it will bring people in the store and they will buy other things.
You don't necessarily sell specific products for the profit you make on them as much as you pick products for the synergy they provide for the entire "store".
08-10-2010, 09:47 AM
#2348
Go Big Blue!
Have you actually driven a Camry XLE and a ES350 back to back on the same route/conditions with a test drive? I have, and I can tell you, the ES350 is no glorified Camry. It might share the same platform but that is where the similarities end. The Lexus was much more refined in almost every single area compared to the Toyota and warranted its price increase over the Camry.
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 08-10-2010 at 09:49 AM.
08-10-2010, 09:56 AM
#2349
Senior Moderator
I am. And i do. I own a company and have a couple products I import from overseas and sell as part of an integration with the software we manufaturer and sell. Because of this recession and supply problems. The costs have skyrocketed. I continue to sell it. Why? Because it adds value to my core product and helps expand my brand image as a product that offers this unique service. Also, I hope things will change in the next couple years and I can make money with it again. It never even crossed my mind to abandon my existing customers because I'm not making money on it right now.
That's a specific example of mine but it happens all the time for many different reasons in business. Here's another. Milk. No one makes money selling milk. Its what you call a "lose leader". If you own a small deli or grocery store why would you sell something you don't make money on. Of course we can probably figure it out if we think about it for a second. You sell it because you know it will bring people in the store and they will buy other things.
You don't necessarily sell specific products for the profit you make on them as much as you pick products for the synergy they provide for the entire "store".
That's a specific example of mine but it happens all the time for many different reasons in business. Here's another. Milk. No one makes money selling milk. Its what you call a "lose leader". If you own a small deli or grocery store why would you sell something you don't make money on. Of course we can probably figure it out if we think about it for a second. You sell it because you know it will bring people in the store and they will buy other things.
You don't necessarily sell specific products for the profit you make on them as much as you pick products for the synergy they provide for the entire "store".
(even if it is a year or so out) Can you honestly tell me that people come into the Acura dealer to see the RL right now and end up walking out with the TSX? Id be more inclined to go in to see the ZDX than the RL. I see ZERO "synergy" for the dealer having a RL sitting on their lot not selling.
Last edited by fsttyms1; 08-10-2010 at 10:00 AM.
08-10-2010, 10:08 AM
#2351
Go Big Blue!
That is a different set of examples. I said a manufacturer of the product. Can you honestly tell me that people come into the Acura dealer to see the RL right now and end up walking out with the TSX? Id be more inclined to go in to see the ZDX than the RL. I see ZERO "synergy" for the dealer having a RL sitting on their lot not selling.
My example of selling the integrated import products is more in line. Sometimes you must do things to help the brand and other products in the lineup. You obviously don't think the RL does either. That's fine. Honda obviously thinks you are wrong. I think you are wrong. Not much really to debate about. I was just giving you some insite into why businesses do the things they do, and possibly why Acura is selling the RL eventhough they only sell a couple hundred a month.
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 08-10-2010 at 10:10 AM.
08-10-2010, 10:22 AM
#2352
Race Director
My example of selling the integrated import products is more in line. Sometimes you must do things to help the brand and other products in the lineup. You obviously don't think the RL does either. That's fine. Honda obviously thinks you are wrong. I think you are wrong. Not much really to debate about. I was just giving you some insite into why businesses do the things they do, and possibly why Acura is selling the RL eventhough they only sell a couple hundred a month.
08-10-2010, 10:32 AM
#2353
Go Big Blue!
As far as continuing to sell the car to save face and help the marketers. I don't know. Of course that sort of thing happens all the time in big corporations, but there are lots of people involved in making decisions and it's hard to continue to do something that is a poor decision without being challenged (or fired). Not the least of which would be the Board who represents the shareholders and can hire and fire the CEO and senior staff.
08-10-2010, 10:55 AM
#2354
AZ Community Team
That is a different set of examples. I said a manufacturer of the product. It makes no sense to keep a product that costs money to make just to sit there and not sell. Sales figures are abysmal for it. I think they would peak more interest removing it now, and giving a "release" date of the NEW product to give people something to look forward to and start talking about (even if it is a year or so out)
Can you honestly tell me that people come into the Acura dealer to see the RL right now and end up walking out with the TSX? Id be more inclined to go in to see the ZDX than the RL. I see ZERO "synergy" for the dealer having a RL sitting on their lot not selling.
(even if it is a year or so out) Can you honestly tell me that people come into the Acura dealer to see the RL right now and end up walking out with the TSX? Id be more inclined to go in to see the ZDX than the RL. I see ZERO "synergy" for the dealer having a RL sitting on their lot not selling.
Any auto manufcturer in business knows you have to move product and adjust manufacturing accordingly, wheither to fleet sales or incentives. It's the mantra of the Sloan school of business. The auto industry is a low-margin, capital intensive industry and sometimes it better to loose some money per product than to have the product sit there.
Do people come in looking for a RL and wind up with a TL? IDK, perhaps in very small numbers. Whenever I'm at the dealership I always look and sit in the RL, I like the interior but at $50K I'd rather put that sort of money into my daughters college funds.
IMO the synergy would be to just have a balanced product line, it's fairly obvious that Honda/Acura are selling very few and I wonder if there is much if any profit margin but it does balance out the product line well (3 sedans, 3 SUV's).
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-10-2010 at 10:59 AM.
08-10-2010, 12:07 PM
#2355
Honda does not need to adjust subcontracting that much as engine, transmission is shared across the line up. It is not some special 8speed for RL.
LS 460 has total production of 20K in 2009 for the whole world.
It hardly justifies its existence. Honda Legend 5000 for whole world is not bad as it has single engine choice. No hybrid or Diesel.
LS 460 has total production of 20K in 2009 for the whole world.
It hardly justifies its existence. Honda Legend 5000 for whole world is not bad as it has single engine choice. No hybrid or Diesel.
08-10-2010, 12:19 PM
#2356
Go Big Blue!
^^ speaking of the LS. How about the 750. Weren't they selling a few hundred a month in the last 2 years before the refresh. Or, the GS. What a dog that is from a sales perspective. Maybe Lexus should kill it and just go with the ES since its in the same category from a size perspective.
There are examples of cars selling badly all the time as they are due for a redesign. If the car is a dog and you don't think it can ever compete and/or is not adding value to the lineup, then kill it. e.g. the Lexus SC. If it's just due for a refresh and that spot in the lineup is needed, then you keep plugging along.
I'd argue strongly that Acura needs 3 sedans and something above the TL. When I purchased the RL in 2007 I think it competed well against it's competition for what I needed. A little underpowered but it had some neat features (like CMBS) and a great nav system that was industry best. The SHAWD was cool and I ended up chosing it over some other choices. But if I was looking for a sedan like that now, I wouldn't pick the RL. It has nothing special or unique anymore and is still underpowered. I'm not surprised it only sells 200 a month. But that doesn't mean you stop selling it
There are examples of cars selling badly all the time as they are due for a redesign. If the car is a dog and you don't think it can ever compete and/or is not adding value to the lineup, then kill it. e.g. the Lexus SC. If it's just due for a refresh and that spot in the lineup is needed, then you keep plugging along.
I'd argue strongly that Acura needs 3 sedans and something above the TL. When I purchased the RL in 2007 I think it competed well against it's competition for what I needed. A little underpowered but it had some neat features (like CMBS) and a great nav system that was industry best. The SHAWD was cool and I ended up chosing it over some other choices. But if I was looking for a sedan like that now, I wouldn't pick the RL. It has nothing special or unique anymore and is still underpowered. I'm not surprised it only sells 200 a month. But that doesn't mean you stop selling it
08-10-2010, 12:42 PM
#2358
^^ speaking of the LS. How about the 750. Weren't they selling a few hundred a month in the last 2 years before the refresh. Or, the GS. What a dog that is from a sales perspective. Maybe Lexus should kill it and just go with the ES since its in the same category from a size perspective.
There are examples of cars selling badly all the time as they are due for a redesign. If the car is a dog and you don't think it can ever compete and/or is not adding value to the lineup, then kill it. e.g. the Lexus SC. If it's just due for a refresh and that spot in the lineup is needed, then you keep plugging along.
I'd argue strongly that Acura needs 3 sedans and something above the TL. When I purchased the RL in 2007 I think it competed well against it's competition for what I needed. A little underpowered but it had some neat features (like CMBS) and a great nav system that was industry best. The SHAWD was cool and I ended up chosing it over some other choices. But if I was looking for a sedan like that now, I wouldn't pick the RL. It has nothing special or unique anymore and is still underpowered. I'm not surprised it only sells 200 a month. But that doesn't mean you stop selling it
There are examples of cars selling badly all the time as they are due for a redesign. If the car is a dog and you don't think it can ever compete and/or is not adding value to the lineup, then kill it. e.g. the Lexus SC. If it's just due for a refresh and that spot in the lineup is needed, then you keep plugging along.
I'd argue strongly that Acura needs 3 sedans and something above the TL. When I purchased the RL in 2007 I think it competed well against it's competition for what I needed. A little underpowered but it had some neat features (like CMBS) and a great nav system that was industry best. The SHAWD was cool and I ended up chosing it over some other choices. But if I was looking for a sedan like that now, I wouldn't pick the RL. It has nothing special or unique anymore and is still underpowered. I'm not surprised it only sells 200 a month. But that doesn't mean you stop selling it
08-10-2010, 12:43 PM
#2359
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^ speaking of the LS. How about the 750. Weren't they selling a few hundred a month in the last 2 years before the refresh. Or, the GS. What a dog that is from a sales perspective. Maybe Lexus should kill it and just go with the ES since its in the same category from a size perspective.
There are examples of cars selling badly all the time as they are due for a redesign. If the car is a dog and you don't think it can ever compete and/or is not adding value to the lineup, then kill it. e.g. the Lexus SC. If it's just due for a refresh and that spot in the lineup is needed, then you keep plugging along.
I'd argue strongly that Acura needs 3 sedans and something above the TL. When I purchased the RL in 2007 I think it competed well against it's competition for what I needed. A little underpowered but it had some neat features (like CMBS) and a great nav system that was industry best. The SHAWD was cool and I ended up chosing it over some other choices. But if I was looking for a sedan like that now, I wouldn't pick the RL. It has nothing special or unique anymore and is still underpowered. I'm not surprised it only sells 200 a month. But that doesn't mean you stop selling it
The A6 is as old as the RL and is outselling it seven to one.
08-10-2010, 12:56 PM
#2360
A6 is in 600 to 700. so it is not 7 to 1. and A6 has comprehsive upgrade.
with LED DRL, 3D HDD Navi, blind spot, 6Speed auto, DI supercharged engine.
Honda needs LED DRL in $50k car to make any impression.
with LED DRL, 3D HDD Navi, blind spot, 6Speed auto, DI supercharged engine.
Honda needs LED DRL in $50k car to make any impression.
