MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think styling has a lot to do with it. You could say that Mercedes also makes bland looking cars, but they're prestige is already well established.

Of course you can do the same with styling on the other end of the spectrum, aka 4G TL.

Acura, build something clean but muscular and expensive looking. Offer a V8. V8s are huge for volume, but important for the image they are.

On the other hand Volvo and Lincoln are getting out of the V8 game so it might not be hugely necessary.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Another issue I see with all of Acura is marketing. What the fuck are they trying to sell with these horrible commercials?

Edward'TLS

A 400hp V8 RWD or SH-AWD RL ?

Yes, I will buy that one too.

Shift_Acura

A V8 is not gonna save the RL...it needs style and technology!

fsttyms1

It will boost the image. It will gt people to look at the brand (just look at the genesis, 45% of the vehicles sold are V8

And it doesnt need more tech, its already pretty good. It needs better styling and to be a actual competitor to the others. (first they need to figure out what car they are targeting. 5 series? 7 series? LS460? GS?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Fully agree on the styling.

As for the technology though, I think it does need more. Not that it necessarily would boost a lot of volume getting moved, but compared to other cars it's lacking a bit. There are cheaper cars that have features this car does not, like heated rear seats, heated steering wheel, panoramic roof (not tech but yeah), adaptive lights (maybe the RL has that, not sure), plus other things competing cars have including power rear shades (RL might have a rear window one, though....again I'm not sure), 3-4 zone climate control, sixteen trillion way seats (BMW offers a two piece back rest, some offer seat bottom extensions, some offer adaptive seats, some offer massage, etc.). And so on and so forth. LOL

fsttyms1

Some of the things you listed, sure, they could add them. BUT Acura needs to know what model they are targeting. They cant make a car like they have now with no real vehicle that its competing against.

SpicyMikey

^^ It needs more everything to compete including more power and size. As far as "better" styling, that's subjective. As far as tech, it's got the best nav and voice control system in the market already. It needs to be refreshed to what the TL has and add some of the latest stuff such as blind spot and heads up display etc. Other than that, it's already got that base covered. It already has adaptive lights, heated and cooled seats, rear and back window shades. 2 zone climate control only but 3 would be necessary if they up the size.

And by the way, they have to be targeting the full size luxury sedan market ala LS, 750, etc., otherwise it will do nothing to boost the brands image even if it is a great car. That's already been proven becaue the current gen RL was a great car when it first came out and it was a flop as the brands top shelf offering

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well, maybe it's just me but I always thought the 2G RL was targeted against the A6, 5-Series, E-Class, GS, M crowd. Back when it was new they AGAIN claimed that built a V6 that performed like a V8. Yeah right, but anyway it was almost targeted then at the 4.2, 45i, 500, 430, and 45 versions of those cars....the V8s. Personally I always saw it as competing with the 6-cyl versions of those cars in price and performance.

But if a person argues it is in a no man's land, I wouldn't argue toooo much.

You aren't wrong though. They need a new direction badly. Two generations of flagships have failed, so they need to take a hint. I'm still in favor of competing with the LS460 Sport, but with more....sport.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

By better I think most of us are intending to mean it needs more "theatre" to its looks, something with more presence. The RL is a nice looking car, but it fades pretty quickly next to even the sometimes bland Germans. I think the generic looks turned off many buyers who were looking to make a statement with a 50 thousand dollar car. The RL looks more like a 35,000 piece.

I think RLs offer blind spot nowdays, and multiple zones are offered by BMW for sure and I think Mercedes, but thanks for correcting me on the features list.

fsttyms1

LuvMyTSX

Maybe they are thinking about killing the Legend in Japan so they can introduce the Acura brand there? Who knows, maybe they just want to discontinue it until the new generation comes out and then they'll sell it as an Acura there (and the rest of the world).

Edward'TLS

Very much agree.

The current RL is already very good. It just needs another 50 to 100 more hp, and better styling. Then it will position itself way above the current TL.

Edward'TLS

True that the 2G RL was and still is targeted against the V6 versions of the A6/5-series/E-class/GS/Infiniti-M. But when all those direct competitors are offering high power V8 options to boost their respective model-line images, the Acura RL automatically becomes faint in comparison by not offering the equivalent trim with matching horsepowers or matching cylinders.

In fact, it actually makes the RL comparative inferior when it has nothing to pitch against those V8 model trims. The single-V6-only RL seems like the entry level trim of all those competitor models, whereas the competitor models still have a luxury V8 trim which sits way above the "entry level trim" RL.

Unfortunately, this results in the unfortunate impression that the Acura RL isn't quite there yet, or isn't quite at the same level of the Audi A6, the BMW 5-series, the MB E-class, the Lexus GS, or the Infiniti-M.

So the RL is targeting the A6/5-series/E-class/GS/Infiniti-M model lines, but can only offer the equivalent of the basic trims of all those model lines.

No wonder the Acura brand can never become a true luxury brand, since it can't even offer the same level of performance options as those widely offered by the true luxury brands.

fsttyms1

while some argue that it comes loaded for less than the others, it still doesnt have the options boxes and engine choices like the others to help draw other customers in to look and makes the car look more like an inferior option.

mrdeeno

Actually, before they decided to offer cheaper versions of the RL and I was shopping for a new car back in late '05, the RL was rather expensive compared to similarly equipped V6 competitors, which is why it really seemed like they were trying to position a V6 against competitors' V8 models.

There was basically only one trim and it was at or nearly $50k, whereas I remember the Infiniti M45 base model was less than this, and an M35 with tech and premium packages (with stuff the RL didn't even offer) was definitely less than this. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with Acura FORCING awd on the customer, but it was really difficult to bring up "value" with the RL at that price range.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Value isn't a strong selling point in the 50+ market, and it seems we all understand that. It can help of course, but it's not as make or break as it might be at 40 thousand.

As I said before and others also say, the RL's lack of a V-8 engine and properly luxurious-chic styling both are likely the strongest points hurting it. Buy a 50K E-Class and most people don't know if it's a 50K E350 or a 85K E63. People KNOW it's expensive. It has that image. Same for others.

Image is its damaging factor.

mrdeeno

Well that's obvious, that's why it doesn't sell well even after they cheapened it out.

That's what I have been saying for years (lack of V8, lack of RWD, sedate styling, originally only 17" stock rims or ugly 18" optional rims available).

Preaching to the choir...unless the choir includes SSFTSUX and a couple other honda fanboys around here that will defend to the death that everything Honda makes is made of gold.

SpicyMikey

Yes, I agree, image for the brand is a drag for the car. I would never argue that. Put a Lexus badge on it and they'd sell more. But I think that's far from the key problem

I don't think it's even so much about the price point. Acura sells $45k MDX's all day long.

Maybe not even so much about the value of the car in itself. It's a good car relative to it's price. MrDeeno thinks it's not that strong but I'd beg to differ. You could argue about small things but it's basically a good car and good value priced well. That's certainly not reason they sell 150 a month.

To me, the kiss of death has always been about where the car sits in the lineup. Product placement is critical and this car is all wrong as the brands flagship and where it sits in the lineup. As a result, the RL hurts the brand image and in turn the brand image hurts the RL. It's a feedback loop that will continue on until it's broken by a change in the product followed with immediate and heavy advertising to get the word out. But, don't waste money advertising until you have something to sell that can comipete with the LS or S class. And Acura shouldn't expect things to change over night either. It's not rocket science. Honda knows what needs to be done. It's a matter of desire

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Perhaps I worded it badly. I didn't mean that the Acura badge hurts the car (well a little, but not from a "good" seller to 872 in over six months).

I was talking about it being viewed as more downmarket than the Germans or other Japanese because of its lack of an available V-8 and too tame styling. V-8s in this class are like V-12s in the big Germans. They sell few of them in reality but it does a whole lot for the image.

I don't think it's the price point either. Without the CMBS package it's a great value.

I think it's still one of the best in its segment, and the front and rear now have some styling. It's the side that shows its age.

And so it turns out.

mrdeeno

My opinion is that if they slap a Lexus badge on it, people will laugh and criticize Lexus for releasing a car into a segment where it can barely compete because of styling, lack of V8, and lack of RWD and equipment options/packages.

I always believed that image is important, but can be overcome. Look at Infiniti...before the 2G M35/45, it can be argued that they had a worse image than Acura and definitely worse than Lexus. But even with lack of image, they can release a car that meets most expectations in its class and add in value, and sell at a rate higher than the Lexus GS.

Edward'TLS

Plus the fact that the current 4G TL can be equipped with the same engine and same AWD hardware as the top-line flagship RL, which makes the potential RL buyers even harder to justify paying that extra $10K premium over the price of the SH-AWD TL.

Every flagship cars have to be way superior than all others within the same auto brand.

In effect, the 4G TL also helps robbing sales from the RL.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Maybe, but the flagship A8, 7-Series, S-Class, and so on have the same engines, transmissions, etc., as the lesser cars (ie A6 4.2 vs A8 4.2, 750i vs 550i, S550 vs E500).

The problem is that the RL is the same size and less powerful for considerably more money. Interior is better but not THAT much better. And so on.

pokin

Regardless of how the sales suck, dropping your "flagship" would be a near fatal mistake. The 'RL' name isn't the problem, it just seems that Acura has nothing much left in their bag of tricks (other than SH-AWD) to compete with the other boys.

Shift_Acura

A Nissan Maxima can be equipped with all those things except adaptive headlights.

SpicyMikey

You could be right but consider the ES as a case study. Lexus sells that underpowered, bland styled, fwd, buick-handling product and no one is laughing. In fact, they sell quite a lot of them Similarly equiped it's several grand less than the RL. But the RL has AWD and significantly more power from a larger 6. Value wise, I think both have value.

Could Acura sell as many if the exact same car was in the Acura linup? I think not. Why? Because it wouldn't fit the brand or lineup as well. Why does Lexus sell so many of those old lady cars? Because it fills a spot in the lineup and brand well. It was created to sell to all the people who really don't care about driving dynamics or 0-60 time but are more interested in trying to get some mojo from the brands reputation created by one very expensive top shelf car in the lineup called the LS. ES buyers are mostly 50 something men and woman who's life didn't quite turn out as good as they hoped and are looking for a small ego boost when they drive around town at 28 mph. That's not a put down. Its a great car for what it is. And it's a perfect car for that brand at that place in the lineup.

Acura needs to learn something from Lexus and a few others on not only how to build a good car, but how to build the RIGHT car. You are selling the brand when you sell a car. I think Acura is starting to move in the right direction now from a business perspective but the RL is a remnant of a failed vision over the last 5-6 years and it's holding them back. Hopefully for Acura this will be retired soon, a more appropriate car can cap off the lineup, and their rebranding can continue.

SpicyMikey

I agree. With the new TL in the lineup. I dont know who these few hundred people are each month that are buying RL's. It must just be a styling difference that pushes them to the RL because you can get virtually the same features and some more updated ones, for less. It's not $10k but you can basically get the same AWD car for several thousand less.

It's another reason we have to assume that the next RL will be significantly upmarket and more of a true flagship relative to the brands perceived competition (BMW, Lexus, etc.). At this point the lineup is in transition and is awkward.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Maybe so, although I'd say there's more reason than ever before to buy the ES350 over the Camry, on account of the Camry's cheap interior.

I had a 2002 ES300 and I wasn't personally looking for an ego boost, but its level of refinement and quality and polish was simply astounding for a car that started in the low 30s.

But I'm not saying I'm the norm. At the time I was also set on the 2002 I35 and 2002 TL Type-S much more than any Lexus, especially the Acura. But once I just gave the ES300 a go (almost by accident), it was easy to make the decision.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think it's some combination of the styling (as you said), the extra features they may want, the slight prestige boost of buying a marque's flagship, it's much nicer interior, and it's noticably smoother ride quality and quietness.

mrdeeno

The ES is not a relevant case study. The ES competes in the NEAR-luxury segment where there are very few V8 competitors (actually, none unless you get into specialized trims like BMW's M3 or Lexus's ISF) and RWD/FWD/AWD doesn't mean as much.

Sure, slap a lexus badge on the RL, price it to compete in the NEAR-LUXURY segment, and it'll sell like hotcakes. Price an RL at the same level as the previous TL, and it'll sell like crazy! But slap a lexus badge on it and place it in the MIDSIZE luxury segment, the segment where Acura intended it to compete, everyone's gonna be laughing at lexus like they do at Acura now.

Only if you slap a BMW or MB badge on it and sell it in the midsize luxury segment will the badge actually make any sort of significant difference, but even then I would think MB or BMW would be criticized for not offering RWD, V8, or more options and packages and it definitely wouldn't sell as well as the E or 5-series, even with the same badges.

SpicyMikey

Probably right. The RL still fits some people's needs better than the TL. Obviously not many though. It's truly a car that answers a question no one is asking. No offense to RL owners, I am one too Also, no offense about the ES comment. As i said, it's a great car if if fits your needs. It works because it was intelligently conceived to fill a particular need for a particular type of buyer group. That's ultimately the key to successful sales. I'm not one to benchmark a cars worth against particular attributes. It's something i see on these various boards too often.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think once a person drives the RL and TL back to back, they begin to see why many didn't go for the RL. The TL is sharper and more buttoned down, and the RL's ride isn't that much better to justify it in my personal opinion, but again that's me. The interior on the RL was much nicer but the TL's was still awfully nice (like comparing an A6 to A8, either way you didn't lose). And the TL was a much slicker looking sedan. TL automatics were slightly quicker if I have my facts straight.

So the only real buying point was the SH-AWD, which for many wasn't enough as the front drive TL was considered adequate for winter transportation and still handled better than the RL. So all of that for about 15,000 more; of course the RL sprinkled some extra features in there too.

All that negative business aside, I can't say myself that I wouldn't have scooped up the RL if I didn't already have the still-new-at-the-time 2004 TL. Given the choice I still might've coughed up since I don't need that last bit of handling and would trade it for the interior, ride, and all wheel drive. But the RL was still a year off when I got it and I don't even recall the RL having been unveiled yet, so I didn't know what to expect (just another FWD boat, aka 1996 RL).

LOL. No worries, my friend. You aren't wrong, as I said. The ES has an older buying client base, and that's just the facts. I wouldn't buy the new ES anyway. The bulletproof vest of quality that surrounded ES models of the past has several chinks in it today. And even if I wanted that sort of car again (which maybe I will), the Lacrosse for now is more appealing to me as it's just as comfortable AND much more taut and controlled in its reflexes. Only downside really is that it's a good half second slower to 60.

The next Lexus ES350 should attempt to mimic this tautness and maybe even offer all wheel drive as an option. Plus as I mentioned on another board, the brand may better be served by making the hybrid Camry drivetrain available on the ES instead of the slow selling HS250h. Lincoln did their hybrid this way and I think it's the right way.

SpicyMikey

MrDenno, so let me get this straight. You get to define where each car should compete, and then get to declare it doesnt stack up. Who says the RL has to compete against v8's? Who made that rule that only people shopping for a 550 or M56 will want to cross shop an RL (where it will fail miserably in the performance category)? On the flip side, who says the ES gets off the hook doesn't have to compete against a Buick Lacrosse (where the Buick destroys it in terms of value)?

I think your comments just reinforce my argument that the RL is all wrong more because of who is selling it and where it sits in their lineup. It's all about preconceived notions set by car mags and others in the industry.

Also, lets remember that the Rl is the top of the lineup. The top car always is a relative sales dud. Like buying a house, most would rather pay more for a small house so they can live in a wealthier neighborhood. Same is true with cars. Why should I pay $45k for an RL when I can get a 528 for about the same price. Never mind that the 528 is underpowered and stripped with no features. That's not important. How can you fight that kind of logic? You can't. That's where Acura goes all wrong. They are trying to sell products with logic. Give it up. Just make a stupid sedan with a V8 and 7 gears. They still won't sell many (like the LS or 750) but it will do wonders for the brand image and they'll sell tons more of the other cars.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Sad thing is the S-Class (90-200,000 dollars) and LS (65-120,000) both sell more each month (as you can look back for proof of this in the monthly sales thread) than the RL has sold all year (872 units).

SpicyMikey

Amazing isn't it. Shows how much of a failure this car is. I'm surprised it hasn't been fast tracked to be replaced sooner. About the S and LS; of course almost all of those sales are for the S class in the $90's and the LS in the low $70's. NO ONE is buying a $200k S class. Goes back to the small house in a big neighborhood thing. If you had $200k to spend on a sedan, you wouldn't be shopping a S class. I think you'd start wanting to push a little bit more and get a Bentley, Rolls, etc.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Honestly I think Acura keeps pushing the RL back because they don't know what to do with it! Midsize to compete with E-Class and 5-Series, or bigger and pricier to compete with a LS, hybrid V-6 or *insert millions of options*, and on and on. I think that two failures in succession leave the penny pinchers at a loss as to where they should take it....or kill it.

Sales of the LS600hL, S600, and S65 AMG are quite low, but actually sales for the latter two may be higher than you might think, especially in the FL and CA regions for obvious reasons.

Mercedes claimed that the average buyer of the S-Class lays out at least 10-15,000 in options, So we're looking at probably most S-Classes trading for 100-110,000 before tax and licensing.

You're dead on with the LS as well.

Sad we're talking about cars around twice or more of the price of the RL that aren't brand new either and their sales are so much stronger. And it only gets worse when you look at their competitors to the RL, the E-Class for one (GS sales are slipping as that model ages, having been introducted when the RL was).

black label

I agree Mikey and would like to add that a GS350 AWD is Lexus' version of the RL.

CL6

The market for an S600 is small, hence very limited production. Same with S65.

There are 32 S600s in the US and 12 S65s right now. There are plenty of S63s though.

The market for a Bentley or Rolls is different and so is the customer. there is room for many types of cars.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You're speaking in terms of what the dealers have on the lots and such right? Because there's no way there's only 12 S65s being operated by the public. LOL

Just checking.

SpicyMikey

Yes I agree. A virtual perfect match against the RL except it has the Lexus 6 gear AT and is rear wheel drive based versus fwd based. That's another good one How many drive their RL or GS around the track where that sort of slight weight distribution difference really matters (or that extra gear really matters). More brain washing from the car mags.

Regardless of being virtual identical products, Lexus has historically sold many multiples more of that car than the RL (eventhough it's not that great of a seller either). Why? Is the GS a "better" car than the RL. I don't think so. I think it benefits mainly from the name plate and its positioning just next to the LS in the showroom. That's its biggest advantage.

Things many of us talk about on these boards; horsepower, weight distribution, number of gears, EVEN styling. It just doesn't matter as much as we think for the vast majority of buyers. Most buyers research their cars based on the commercials they see and the car their neighbor drives. It's not that technical. The fact that the RL is actually a pretty good car really doesn't matter much to the typical buyer.