iforyou

iTrader: (1)

haha yes, ideally this would be nice, no doubt. the 2.4 + 8DCT combo in the sub-3000lb ILX should result in very decent performance (0-60mph in 6s flat, 1/4 mile in mid 14's at 97mph).

The 2.0 turbo engine can then be used in a Type S term with 250hp or something.

Leave the battery crap for the ILX hybrid. Just use the Accord hybrid's setup. Oh wait, there's major shortage issue with that...lol..

Realistically speaking though, if the ILX base has a 2.0L engine with CVT that makes 170hp/150lbft for $25k, I don't think it's that bad.


Hmm I thought the styling is okay for the ILX. Ugly is a bit harsh....??

Edward'TLS

If they had had used RWD, then they would never have to resort to AWD at all, in order to accommodate powerplants >310hp.

The whole issue is, once again, the technical limitation of FWD chassis in handling more than ~310hp.

The complexity of the 3-motor hybrid AWD system carries lots of risks. If Honda can't get the system to work perfectly when such product is released, then all these Acura owners will be even more pissed off.

oonowindoo

not just perfectly but also reliably.

The more electrical craps the car has, the higher chance it will have problems.

neuronbob

Vaporware.

jwong77

Agreed, going RWD would have been the simpler more elegant solution. The sort of thinking the old Honda would have done.

neuronbob

With respect, they had RWD mules out there, but the plummeting of the economy in 2008 pretty much put the kibosh on that. I expect never to see a RWD Acura, ever. I can't call it vaporware because RWD has never been promised to us.

Ken1997TL

Since Acura is now 'independent' I'm wondering if they'll come out with a unique platform that is RWD. Most likely not, but perhaps they'll at least use longitudinally mounted engines giving the appearance of RWD proportions and weight balance.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Given the size of Honda and the fact that it's not partnering/merged with anyone, I think it's unlikely to see a unique RWD platform for the brand unless the sales volume increases substantially. Right now, Acura is at 150k/year. For comparison, the Mercedes FWD platform is projected at about 500k/year.

I think the volume needs to be much higher in order to make financial sense. Otherwise all the money will be used on the RWD platform, but with no money for luxury features at all.

oonowindoo

stretch the s2000 chassis and put ILX on it with 2.4T...

Done.

kurtatx

If this happens, I will have also won the lottery, so flights to Austin, beer, and barbecue will be on me. You're all invited.

Edward'TLS

The NSX program didn't make any money.

The upcoming tri-motor NSX program isn't expect to make much money. The RL/RLX program has continuously been disappointing in terms of sales.

Participating in Formula 1 (either as a team or an engine supplier) is guaranteed to be a bottomless money pit.

Does it mean all of the above will have to be canceled since they don't make financial sense ?

Simply put it, just cancel all the other programs such as the upcoming F1 engine supplier, the stupid ASIMO "running" robot, the private jetliner, etc., and use those resources to fund the RWD automobile program.

Once the RWD program is making money (and most importantly fame), then re-divert some of the profits back to them.

biker

The HondaJet is supposed to make money - unlike the others listed.

oonowindoo

come on guys, you guys make it sound like making a RWD car will cost honda an arm or leg.

It is expensive yes.. but compare to some of the useless shit they waste $ on, it is nothing.

It has more to do with their mentality and management than anything....

oonowindoo

is the Jet supposed to be FWD too?

oonowindoo

seriously, it is not that hard since they have all the essentials already.

The engine (2.4T), chassis, 8speed dct/6mt and all they need is some modification and good exterior design...

You will have the next:

Honda S2000 Coupe and Convertible
Acura ILX Type S

EhkoXC

You act like nothing good came out of the F1 program the last time they did it, double-wishbone suspension comes to mind. They've already talked about bringing the F1 turbo and KERS Tech to street cars. In a vacuum it might be a money pit, but it should have payoffs for the rest of the company.

While ASIMO is a decently cool novelty I could live without it, and I doubt anyone expected the NSX to actually make money on it's own.

fsttyms1

they arent bringing the F1 turbo tech to the street. They already have the turbo v6 being used in the Tudor series and Pirelli series which use the Stock J series block, crank, and heads which would be more likely for making it to the streets

EhkoXC

While I don't disagree that the other tech will likely reach first, this is what they said last Dec.

http://wot.motortrend.com/1312_honda...he_street.html

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

They also said they would bring in the diesel TSX.
They also said the new NSX would come out in 2014.
They also said the Hybrid AWD TLX would come out in early this year.
They also said .....

Do you still believe them ?!

EhkoXC

Do you honestly believe a company would invest millions in a program like F1 if they didn't think they could get anything out of it on the money-making side?

I'm fine with condemning past failures, but dismissing anything they say right away is somewhat ridiculous. Maybe I'm not just as jaded as some of you.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

RL and RLX are both based on Accord essentially?

F1 - addressed by another poster.

The NSX reference is irrelevant. The NSX was a limited production car. Its main aim was to boast Honda's image with cost not much of a concern.

That is vastly different than designing and manufacturer a brand new RWD platform for several different cars that are supposed to make big bucks. When you are BMW/MB, the main focus is on RWD cars, and they build a tons of them worldwide. And they are also able to charge a high premium for their cars. When you are Nissan and Toyota, you already have RWD platforms readily available. When you are Hyundai, you have nothing to lose, you can really go all out to grab attention. Again, these cars also sell worldwide.

But for Acura, they are mainly selling cars in North America. They can't charge a high premium like BMW and MB. That means Acura cannot take as much advantage as other brands for economies of scale. Not only that, they will have to work on a tighter budget per vehicle as the cars they sell must be priced significantly lower than MB/BMW. In other words, manufacturing cost will mostly be higher than competitors, and the profit margin will be lower (if any). And they still need to squeeze in the same amount of features as competitors, if not more, to get attention from buyers.

oonowindoo

cost is one of the factors but i do not think that is the primary reason.

Take a look at the domestic brand for example, ,most of them are sold within North America (charger, 300 and etc...)

If anything Acura has more ways to distribute the cost via Honda globally than Domestic brands like Dodge.

if Acura wants to improve, they have to start from somewhere and it will cost $. Otherwise they will just circling in an endless cycle like where they are now.

back to what i said earlier, they have all the parts already, it is just a matter of how bad they want it.

RLX is already a $60k car, instead of all the $ they spent on those battery, they probably would have spent less on a new RWD drivetrain.

Edward'TLS

Oh yes ! The NSX reference is highly relevant.

The point of the NSX is to boost the Honda image; while RWD Acura cars will similarly boost the Acura brand image, and also to highly differential the cheap Honda vehicles from the premium Acura vehicles.

The most successful luxury brands (MB, BMW, Lexus) have RWD vehicles as their benchmark players.

There is no need to go to the costly AWD route, for cars that packs > 310hp.

People find it hard to shake off the image that FWD Acura's are just another FWD Honda's, and thus not justifying the premium that goes with Acura sedans.

Simple RWD sedans (coupled with high-output engines) are the only plausible way to lift the ill-performing Acura sedan division to beyond the $50K MSRP level, as well as elevating the much needed prestige and upscale images for the stagnant Acura auto brand.

fsttyms1

I doubt there is much that they would ever possibly carry over given the motors are 1.6L V6's with a bore around 80mm and a very short stroke of around 53mm (J35 for comparison is 89mm bore 93mm) How and where they use turbos in the future could be possibly trickle down (ie splitting the turbo in half having the exhaust turbine on one side of the motor and the intake turbine on the other to reduce heat transfer making it easier to run more boost with less heat and less need to cool the intake charge) and that is all assuming they copy the Mercedes design for their 2015 engine/entry next year

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The Chrysler LH platform is being used in the 300, Charger, and Mercedes Benz E Class. Unfortunately, Honda is not partnering with Mercedes or any other company.

Yes indeed, Honda can technically distribute the costs globally. And that's my point - If Acura were to go with RWD, the brand needs to go global to sell at a high enough volume.

The hybrid system is not just about improving performance. It's also about improving fuel economy and what not. Some might argue that the process to make such system is not very environmental friendly, but for most people, when they think about hybrids, they think about green.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Acura should not go with RWD, nor saying RWD is overrated. I'm saying that if Acura were to go with RWD, the brand needs to be marketed globally and the products be sold worldwide. And I explained in the above post(s) already on this point.

Edward'TLS

After all, it's a catch-22 dilemma.

Which comes first and which goes afterwards ?

Does Honda build RWD products first before establishing a global Acura presence, or does Acura set up worldwide distribution channels first before releasing RWD products ?

My suggestion is to do both at the same time, rather than like today's Honda still dragging its feet not working on RWD products nor working on setting up Acura dealerships in all countries where Honda automobiles are being sold.

biker

Why anyone is talking about Acura/Honda and a RWD platform is beyond me - it will NOT happen. They decided a long time ago that the Audi model is good enough - go AWD for the higher end, higher power models but essentially platform whore FWD designs. All of this wouda/couda/shouda talk is just a waste of time.

phile

they're not even using the Audi model - Audis have V8's, attention to details, style

biker

The tree huggers and the 08 downturn put a nail in the V8 coffin too.

Belzebutt

Audi at least does a good job of making their AWD cars look like RWD cars. Not so for Acura. And they have AWD pretty much across the board, even on low end models.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

For sure, they both need to be done at the same time otherwise it's a waste of time.

neuronbob

I will say it again: RWD will not happen at Acura. Speculation on it is a waste of time IMHO.

I hope I am wrong, but suspect not.

Edward'TLS

Audi also has been selling a simple (=no complicated electronics) V8/V10 RWD supercar (R8) for brand image boosting; not just vaporware like the NSX.

It also has an all-out, high-power, high perf. vehicle division (S-division/RS-division); not just exterior cosmetic upgrades like the A-spec trims.

It also allows customers to custom-order accessory packages on their desired Audi vehicles; not like Acura customers, who only want "ventilated seats", will have no choice but to purchase the most expensive, top-of-the-line trim models.

It also allows customers to mix and match engine/driveline on most Audi vehicles; not like Acura who doesn't offer AWD on base trim models.

To sum it up, both Audi and Acura are selling predominately FWD and FWD-based-AWD vehicles for some premium pricing. Besides that, this is where the similarity ends.

Edward'TLS

We are not speculating, we are begging for it to happen.

We all know that RWD is not gonna happen with the current Honda president still in position.

But we all know that this is a mistake, a huge mistake, if Acura is gonna become successful in the premium auto business.

But still, it doesn't mean we, as Acura owners who want the Acura brand to flourish, shouldn't voice our concerns and suggestions.

Who knows ?

Maybe the next Honda president will turn everything upside down again, just like the current Honda president Takanobu Ito did to the outgoing Takeo Fukui, when Mr. Ito has virtually revoked almost everything that Mr. Fukui had carefully laid out for the Acura auto division.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. Gotta be a large, global company, that sell at a high volume, at a high premium, to do that.

We are talking about 1.5 million Audi vehicles sold worldwide in 2013. Even the A3 model alone is outselling the whole Acura line up...

And that's just the Audi brand, not including the VW brand, which is close to 10 million vehicles (Honda is less than 5 mil for comparison).

It also helps when your brand also owns a exotic brand - Lamborghini to be specific. To make the R8 would then be much easier. Just use the same Gallardo platform, share the same manufacturing tooling and parts. A lot of other components can also be shared too, such as the R-tronic gearbox (It's called the E-Gear in the Gallardo, but it's the same thing), the 4WD system (not sure why you said the R8 is RWD when it's AWD), the same V10 engine (the 4.2 FSI V8 is from RS4, again, part sharing), etc.

oonowindoo

Then the fastest and easiest solution is for Acura to have join venture with XXX and design a sports car.

Honda can provide.... i am not really sure what they can provide for a join venture RWD car.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hahaha would be interesting if they do that...

I think they can provide a lot...after all..they built DC2-R, EK9-R, DC5-R, NSX, S2k, etc. It's a matter of whether they want to do it or not.....

Curious3GTL

Looks like Acura.com lets you build the hybrid model now. However, it still shows up as a 2014..... Now will any dealers actually have any in stock?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

RLX Sport Hybrid SH-AWD with Technology Package $59,950
RLX Sport Hybrid SH-AWD with Advance Package $65,950

In other words, $5.5k over FWD version.

No base trim which makes the starting price seems quite high.

For comparison.....

Activehybrid 5 with RWD and 335hp starts at $61k and can go to $80k.
550i xdrive is $5k more than the activehybrid5.

E400 Hybrid with RWD and 302hp starts at $56k and can top $75k.
E550 4matic is $5k more expensive than the E400 hybrid.

GS450h with RWD and 338hp starts at $60k and can go to $70k.

Infiniti Q70 hybrid with RWD and 360hp starts at $55k and can reach $68k.
Q70 5.6 is $7k more than the hybrid version.

oonowindoo

So you are saying Acura priced the RLX AWD correctly?

i expect $10k off MSRP on the day that it arrives at the dealership. :rolf: